I suspect if VAR as around last night the penalty would have been given as well.........
Michael Oliver
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Whether Oliver got the penalty call right or wrong, he is the most inconsistent referee by a mile.
The amount of penalty calls he's waved away that were 10x worse than that are probably in the thousands.
And a Joe Hart headbutt didn't even get a yellow card or a warning.
When he gets United vs Spurs in the FA Cup, just you see. Lukaku will probably get flattened in the box with a knee to face and Oliver will wave play on
The amount of penalty calls he's waved away that were 10x worse than that are probably in the thousands.
And a Joe Hart headbutt didn't even get a yellow card or a warning.
When he gets United vs Spurs in the FA Cup, just you see. Lukaku will probably get flattened in the box with a knee to face and Oliver will wave play on
Not that's not what I said at all.
Oliver had a few options which would have shown a consistent application of the rules and a rational thought process.
1) Buffon red card, and multiple yellow cards for dissent to other Juventus players
2) Buffon yellow card, and multiple yellow cards for dissent to other Juventus players
3) Buffon yellow card, and warnings to multiple Juventus players which would lead to cards if they showed more dissent.
Instead he gave Buffon a red card, and did nothing to all the other players that man handled him and screamed in his face as well. It strongly suggests that Buffon crossed a line of aggression that triggered an emotional response from Oliver. Add to this that he did not take time to evaluate the situation, rather brought out the card while being harrassed by the Juventus players.
The final nail in the coffin was that Benatia did not get a second yellow. There is a strong chance that Oliver gave Buffon a red card because he felt like it. He wasn't thinking about the rules of the game, because he ignored the rules of the game with everyone else.
When I first saw it I had doubts, after seeing the replays its clear as day. You can't jump into someone and then kick them, however lightly, in football. Its a foul anywhere on the pitch. As it happened in the box its a penalty. Simple as.
From the videos, Costa gave Oliver a punch into the ribs. There was lot of pushing an shoving of the ref. Buffon was way too close and shouting at the top of his voice at the ref. Most refs would have sent off someone or the other.
The law of the game don't give them a guidance, interestingly "foul" isn't defined, unsporting behavior is defined as an unfair action. So the notion of foul exists but no one clearly knows what it is, it's subjective now the refereeing governing bodies do provide guidances but in relation to the laws of the game, it's subjective.
I think the time it happened has made people question it too
If it happened at 1-1 on 43rd minute I seriously think less people would question it
I don't even get this "already going down" stuff either... or this "soft penalty" thing either.
It's just a penalty. Simples.
I think you're right. The timing meant lots of people were looking at it in a bit of shock. Once the surprise wears off you just see that, after a lot of heroic defending, Juventus lost concentration, Benatia lost Lucas and fouled him. Like you say, if it happens after 27 minutes nobody say boo to a goose.
You're demonstrably wrong. Read law 12 again.
In order for something to be a foul it has to either be careless, reckless, or endangering the safety of a player. A player jumping through the back of another player to attempt to win the ball is always going to be considered careless. We can call that 'soft' if we like, and we can agree that its the least serious of the three levels of offence (and thus is not ordinarily met with a yellow card, although i think Benetia was extraordinarily lucky to not pick up a second booking for DOGSO and was probably saved by Buffon being, well, a buffoon), but I simply can't understand how anyone can watch the incident and not conclude that it's careless.
I thought it was a penalty in real time, but the more replays I see, the worse it looks. I can't see how anyone is still defending that with the benefit of replays from multiple angles.
There’s no way Oliver saw that, not from where he was standing. And considering there was more of a push on Ronny earlier in the game that got nothing, it’s inconsistent to give it here and is exactly why Oliver is a shit ref and why he got the reaction he got from the juve team. Oliver set that team up to lose their minds. “Why are giving that as a pen when you didn’t give any of the others?” It’s a fair question.
With performances like that it’s easy to see why no PL refs have been invited to the World Cup.
Because Oliver didn’t have multiple Angles, he had one from the back and wouldn’t have seen what we all saw. If he doesn’t see it he can’t give it, and I may be mistaken, but he didn’t consult his assistants, he just gave it.
So, replays suggest it's the correct decision. But according to you it's a wrong decision because you think Oliver did not see it as clearly as the cameras did.
And you somehow forgot four words "Considered by the referee", it's subjective, the laws of the game tells you that it's the referees subjectivity. The law 12 don't tell you what is but what could be, depending on the referee's subjectivity. And it's quite obvious, that's why we see refereeing differences from one league or competition to the other.
I don't even know where to begin...
Just stop it...
You're acting like referees are a bunch of randoms bought in off the street and told to make it up as they go along rather than an accredited body with years of training and a string of interpretative advice.
If your interpretation of that phrase was correct than appeals panels would not be possible because every decision the referee makes would automatically be correct.
Some of the attempts to argue it wasn't a penalty are hilarious.
So, replays suggest it's the correct decision. But according to you it's a wrong decision because you think Oliver did not see it as clearly as the cameras did.
Blimey
So, replays suggest it's the correct decision. But according to you it's a wrong decision because you think Oliver did not see it as clearly as the cameras did.
If he doesn’t see it, he can’t give it. That’s the rule. He’s not allowed to guess, or estimate, or base his decision on anything other than what he sees. So in that context it is the wrong decision.
And I know you won’t have seen all of my posts, but I’ve been talking about consistency in his refereeing. That was as soft a pen as I’ve ever seen, and being that it was almost the last kick of the game, it’s a strange time to finally find your balls and start making big calls.
The push that got Buffon sent off, wasn’t a push on Oliver, it was a push on Buffon into Oliver. Oliver had is back to it and reacted with emotion. He should have been talking to his assistants to make the right decisions, but he didn’t. The whole thing is his fault for not controlling the game or the players. A weak ref, that let everything get out of hand by not dealing with it. Walking away, turning your back is NEVER going to get a good reaction from an angry person.
Maybe it was the right call, maybe it wasn’t. I’ve seen them given, and seen them waved away. But there is no way Oliver saw that like we did, and if nothing else should have been consulting his assistants, which again he failed to do. You can’t say “I’m following the rules” when you’ve been largely ignoring them for 93 minutes.
You have got to be wumming at this stage
That’s not very nice.
There’s no discussion if that’s a penalty. You see it in the replays and in real life you see it as someone getting jump kicked from behind completely missing the ball. However Michael Oliver should never ref a big game ever after shitting the bed sending Buffon off.
Why on earth would you give an impulse red card? Why on earth would you not even give a yellow to anyone else barking in your face?
Had Juve gone through, this ref would have been in a lot of trouble sending Buffon off.
Why on earth would you give an impulse red card? Why on earth would you not even give a yellow to anyone else barking in your face?
Had Juve gone through, this ref would have been in a lot of trouble sending Buffon off.
I mean. I watched the replay in slowmo and could not see a big enough push to warrant a yellow card and penalty. He did really say that himself? I find that hard to believe. In a final i would be screaming for less, but in a regular game that would never be given.
Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t mean I’m wumming. The rule is clear, if he doesn’t see it, he can’t give it. He can’t use the force to referee a game.
Well maybe he can as it seems to be working for him?
You're assuming he didn't see it. For reasons unknown to all the rest of us.
any other ref people wouldn't be debating it, you are letting your dislike of Michael Oliver affect your POV
It's for your own sake. You're starting to give very strange reasons to just blame Oliver for a correct decision. Do you think anyone here loves Oliver ? We're just saying the truth that's all.
It's a penalty because it was a tackle from behind - but the red card was a ridiculous decision.
He got intimidated by Juve and decided to settle the matter by showing a red card. If you see the replays, it looks like Oliver totally lost his head in that moment. His hand was in his back pocket immediately after he got touched in the back and in all probability, he didn't even know who it was. He lost context of the game and the moment in which he gave that decision. For a ref who is officiating at such a high level - he should be able to manage that situation better. Walk away from the players, call the captain and calm them down. Standing there to take the remonstrations, and then showing a red card to the captain of the team who was protesting is just weak.
In the player's minds, his decision robbed them of one of the most magical European comebacks of all time. No wonder they were upset.
He got intimidated by Juve and decided to settle the matter by showing a red card. If you see the replays, it looks like Oliver totally lost his head in that moment. His hand was in his back pocket immediately after he got touched in the back and in all probability, he didn't even know who it was. He lost context of the game and the moment in which he gave that decision. For a ref who is officiating at such a high level - he should be able to manage that situation better. Walk away from the players, call the captain and calm them down. Standing there to take the remonstrations, and then showing a red card to the captain of the team who was protesting is just weak.
In the player's minds, his decision robbed them of one of the most magical European comebacks of all time. No wonder they were upset.
Has the ref said what he saw and what he didn't see?
how can you call the captain to calm the team down if he's the one losing his head the most, Buffon WAS the captain
He’s behind both of them, how could he see the foot missing the ball when his view is obscured by the upper torso of the fouled player? He’s allowed to do what he did, as long as he makes contact with the ball. The push was less than what he had been waving away all game. So why was this special?
This. I think Oliver is a poor ref and I can’t stand his face. However, both of his decisions yesterday were fine.
Seriously your first sentence is out of place, there isn't a moment where I insinuate that they are a "bunch of randoms", I just told you that a foul is subjective which isn't a pejorative word, two referees can and often will have two different interpretation of a challenge, some will be lenient others will be severe and as long as they are consistent, they are both correct. That's what I'm telling you.
On your second sentence, there is a reason why appeals panels read referees reports and don't revise things that the referee clearly saw and ruled upon. Also the way they work should tell you everything, they are three which prevents decision-less ties, they each review video footages independently, so it's their own opinion that matters.
So, in isolation I don't have a problem with the penalty, I just have doubts about the consistency which is a general concern and refereeing is subjective, so we can all argue all we want, the only decision that matters is the one that has been taken and doesn't go against the rules.
What you said is correct when you hear ref explaining decisions, it's so obvious how much wrong people are about rules interpretations. I don't remember any example but Chris Foy comes in a show and explains dubious decisions. There is so much that most people don't consider.
Not saying they are always correct, just adding my 2 cents here about how different fans and refs sees a situation.
Spot on as always JP. Superbly put!