Michael Oliver

Seriously, how was he fine? He would never have given that penalty to us today and half the Liverpool team spent the 2nd half exploring the OT grass, he allowed all of it and gives 4 minutes of added time when he gave 8 the other week, so Liverpool can take their three points against Everton.

I know people don't want to overreact but he's the most clueless ref in the whole league. He's not given us clear pens a number of times and the first time there's a 50/50 call to make at OT, he gives it to the scousers. Even when he's not awful, he's barely tolerable.

This is not to say we were not poor because we were but this ref has no place in League 1, let alone in the PL.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
He didn't make any major errors and he played no part in the result but I do think he was too eager to blow for fouls for the slightest physical contact.
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''Not as shit as usual''

Fair enough, think I agree. Bit fussy, usually favouring the visitors, but nothing horrendous.
 
Rightnr said:
Seriously, how was he fine? He would never have given that penalty to us today and half the Liverpool team spent the 2nd half exploring the OT grass, he allowed all of it and gives 4 minutes of added time when he gave 8 the other week, so Liverpool can take their three points against Everton.

I know people don't want to overreact but he's the most clueless ref in the whole league. He's not given us clear pens a number of times and the first time there's a 50/50 call to make at OT, he gives it to the scousers. Even when he's not awful, hes barely tolerable.

This is not to say we were not poor because we were but this ref has no place in League 1, let alone in the PL.
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Pogba's penalty was as penalty as you can get.

He gave many 50/50 to us today.

We scored a goal from an offside position.

The added time depends on the stoppages during the match, so it is not important how many minutes he gave on an another match. 4 minutes today was a very justifiable decision.

We were fecking shit today, and blaming Oliver for not winning is Bluemoon type of stupidity.
 
I really dislike Oliver and think he's a poor referee, but can't really complain about him today.
 
Revan said:
Pogba's penalty was as penalty as you can get.

He gave many 50/50 to us today.

We scored a goal from an offside position.

The added time depends on the stoppages during the match, so it is not important how many minutes he gave on an another match. 4 minutes today was a very justifiable decision.

We were fecking shit today, and blaming Oliver for not winning is Bluemoon type of stupidity.
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You can have a different opinion from me but read the post. I did not blame him for losing, I blame him for being a shite ref.
 
Rightnr said:
You can have a different opinion from me but read the post. I did not blame him for losing, I blame him for being a shite ref.
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Yeah but he was fine today, I re-read your post and you're just complaining about his performance today, which was absolutely fine.
In general he's a good ref, but has had some shockers when it comes to United.
 
He is a dangerous one, because he wants to be always the protagonist, more than the players
 
Cascarino said:
Yeah but he was fine today, I re-read your post and you're just complaining about his performance today, which was absolutely fine.
In general he's a good ref, but has had some shockers when it comes to United.
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It's probably clear I cannot stand him because I think he's clueless.

My point was that he wasn't 'fine' in my opinion, just not as bad as he is usually. He barely had to make a decision and the one he made could have lost us the game when (and I honestly think this), he would not have given that penalty against other teams in the league (e.g. Liverpool). Just think back to that penalty last year when we played City away. Much more clear-cut but he bottled it.

Of course we could have won if we turned up today but that is not to say we've had the luck this season with refs.
 
That's a lot of comments on a referee performance not really worthy of mentioning. Fine game from him. If anyone had a problem it was the one linesman.
 
Rightnr said:
It's probably clear I cannot stand him because I think he's clueless.

My point was that he wasn't 'fine' in my opinion, just not as bad as he is usually. He barely had to make a decision and the one he made could have lost us the game when (and I honestly think this), he would not have given that penalty against other teams in the league (e.g. Liverpool). Just think back to that penalty last year when we played City away. Much more clear-cut but he bottled it.

Of course we could have won if we turned up today but that is not to say we've had the luck this season with refs.
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Start of the season I'd agree, but I think it's swinging the other way. United have had a fair amount of luck in their past few games (Rojo's lunges, offside goals), even today, United had an offside goal
 
Cascarino said:
Start of the season I'd agree, but I think it's swinging the other way. United have had a fair amount of luck in their past few games (Rojo's lunges, offside goals), even today, United had an offside goal
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Their goal shouldn't have happened either. The corner came from Lallana being offside and forcing someone to put it out of play to deal with him.
 
Cascarino said:
Start of the season I'd agree, but I think it's swinging the other way. United have had a fair amount of luck in their past few games (Rojo's lunges, offside goals), even today, United had an offside goal
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Yeah, but the offside goals didn't matter a lot in the earlier games though, 3-0 goal v Sunderland and 2-0 v West Ham. Giroud's push on Jones for the Arsenal 1-1, Herrera sent off against Burnley, Bravo should have been sent off for city. Also Martial v Watford, Zlatan goal v Boro and I have missed a few pens. So we should have maybe another five decisions before it's ok ;)
 
Not sure I can really be bothered to argue this but that was ball to hand not hand to ball. Pogba's intent was to head it, are you all saying that Pogba deliberately hand balled it? Think he even had his eyes closed. I agree that he shouldn't have jumped with arms up even it helps to get more height as it's asking for trouble. And I concede that it might be hard for the ref to ascertain Pogba's intent, but my point remains, Pogba didn't try to handball it deliberately and it was ball to hand. Therefore not a penalty. But I accept I hold a minority view on this one.
 
OohAahMartial said:
Not sure I can really be bothered to argue this but that was ball to hand not hand to ball. Pogba's intent was to head it, are you all saying that Pogba deliberately hand balled it? Think he even had his eyes closed. I agree that he shouldn't have jumped with arms up even it helps to get more height as it's asking for trouble. And I concede that it might be hard for the ref to ascertain Pogba's intent, but my point remains, Pogba didn't try to handball it deliberately and it was ball to hand. Therefore not a penalty. But I accept I hold a minority view on this one.
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As you've said, the problem with the "it wasn't intentional" argument is that referees are not capable of reading minds, and thus will never actually know what the intent was. As it was, Pogba jumped up with his arms unnecessarily high, and the ball's momentum was visibly changed by contact with his hands, giving him and United an advantage in that situation. It doesn't really matter that he intended to do so with his head, it just matters that he intended to do so, and did so with his hands. It was a penalty.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, luck may or may not even itself out but that seems to have happened to us this season.
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Man-United said:
Yeah, but the offside goals didn't matter a lot in the earlier games though, 3-0 goal v Sunderland and 2-0 v West Ham. Giroud's push on Jones for the Arsenal 1-1, Herrera sent off against Burnley, Bravo should have been sent off for city. Also Martial v Watford, Zlatan goal v Boro and I have missed a few pens. So we should have maybe another five decisions before it's ok ;)
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Fair points, can't really disagree. I disagree with Martial Watford though, was that the one where he was pushed in the flanks and the cross resulted in a goal? If so I remember thinking that it wasn't a bad decision, could be remembering incorrectly though.
I think all fans will forget the fortuitious decisions and focus on the poor decisions against them though, no one is worse at this than Swansea fans.
 
OohAahMartial said:
Not sure I can really be bothered to argue this but that was ball to hand not hand to ball. Pogba's intent was to head it, are you all saying that Pogba deliberately hand balled it? Think he even had his eyes closed. I agree that he shouldn't have jumped with arms up even it helps to get more height as it's asking for trouble. And I concede that it might be hard for the ref to ascertain Pogba's intent, but my point remains, Pogba didn't try to handball it deliberately and it was ball to hand. Therefore not a penalty. But I accept I hold a minority view on this one.
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I kind of think the same. In slo mo it looked like an accidental handball. Which shouldn't be penalised. In real time, though, if you challenge for a header with both your hands directly above your head and it hits you on the arm then you can have no complaints. His arms were in a ridiculous position. Couldn't even use that old excuse about using them for leverage. He may not have planned to handle the ball but his body shape was bizarre.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I kind of think the same. In slo mo it looked like an accidental handball. Which shouldn't be penalised. In real time, though, if you challenge for a header with both your hands directly above your head and it hits you on the arm then you can have no complaints. His arms were in a ridiculous position. Couldn't even use that old excuse about using them for leverage. He may not have planned to handle the ball but his body shape was bizarre.
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"Ball to hand" is a common misconception. If your hands aren't tucked into your body and it hits your hand, it's a foul. It's that simple.
 
Not as bad as he usually is and that was a needless penalty conceded by Pogba. But, he was still his usual sh*te self, Liverpool were rarely penalised for their holding and grabbing when pressing, whereas when ever we tried the same, we were invariably conceding free kicks. Never a level playing field when this cnut is in the middle.
 
Played his part in the game being poor by being over officious. Got most decisions correct but killed the flow of the game with his constant blowing for anything. Yes it keeps the temperature down but kills the spectacle. This is where Clatterburg is much better than him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I kind of think the same. In slo mo it looked like an accidental handball. Which shouldn't be penalised. In real time, though, if you challenge for a header with both your hands directly above your head and it hits you on the arm then you can have no complaints. His arms were in a ridiculous position. Couldn't even use that old excuse about using them for leverage. He may not have planned to handle the ball but his body shape was bizarre.
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That was a stone wall penalty Pogue. We need to get smarter on set pieces for and against as we are abysmal on them. Plus Pogba picking up Lovern was a bit of a mismatch in terms of heading ability. It should have been Jones imo (who for some reason doesn't go forward for our corners??) We kept being done by the block also. Plus corners for we are really poor and apart from Smalling when he plays we never attack the ball in so we'd be better playing them short.
 
Lawman said:
Played his part in the game being poor by being over officious. Got most decisions correct but killed the flow of the game with his constant blowing for anything. Yes it keeps the temperature down but kills the spectacle. This is where Clatterburg is much better than him.
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Pretty much it.

In the second half it seemed all the players knew you'd be able to go down under a bit of pressure and you'd win a free kick.
 
I am of the belief the handball was harsh. The rule is "deliberate" and it was in no way deliberate. It was stupid, clumsy, and undeniably cowardly from Pogba, because he's jumped for the header and closed his eyes and hoped for the best. You can see him just throw his head towards it with his eyes closed and hope he makes contact, but it comes off his hand instead. There's no forgiving that and you'd expect Mourinho and the coaches to be kicking lumps out of him this morning for it. But his hands aren't in that unnatural of a position. You keep your hands up when you go for a header. They were perhaps a little too high. But that's irrelevant anyway. It has to be deliberate. I don't see how it can be argued that it was a purposeful and calculated use of the arm to make contact with the ball.

The rule needs to be clarified or expanded on if incidents like that are being given as handball, because by the law of the game, it isn't handball. Pundits talk about arms in "unnatural positions" and whatnot, as if you have to always have your arms behind your back, which is a bit unreasonable. I'd think that if video replays existed, that would have been looked at again and not given, as the replay shows exactly what Pogba's intention is, and it certainly wasn't to handle the ball. It was just a really shit header.

I think Oliver handled the game well though. Certainaly the emotional aspect of it, though it did end up being a niggly and fragmented game. If he lets a few challenges go, then it could get a bit nasty.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
I am of the belief the handball was harsh. The rule is "deliberate" and it was in no way deliberate. It was stupid, clumsy, and undeniably cowardly from Pogba, because he's jumped for the header and closed his eyes and hoped for the best. You can see him just throw his head towards it with his eyes closed and hope he makes contact, but it comes off his hand instead. There's no forgiving that and you'd expect Mourinho and the coaches to be kicking lumps out of him this morning for it. But his hands aren't in that unnatural of a position. You keep your hands up when you go for a header. They were perhaps a little too high. But that's irrelevant anyway. It has to be deliberate. I don't see how it can be argued that it was a purposeful and calculated use of the arm to make contact with the ball.

The rule needs to be clarified or expanded on if incidents like that are being given as handball, because by the law of the game, it isn't handball. I'd think that if video replays existed, that would have been looked at again and not given, as the replay shows exactly what Pogba's intention is, and it certainly wasn't to handle the ball. It was just a really shit header.

I think Oliver handled the game well though. Certainaly the emotional aspect of it, though it did end up being a niggly and fragmented game. If he lets a few challenges go, then it could get a bit nasty.
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He jumped with his arms up first, then closed his eyes and his hands got pinned up by Lovren's body. That's a handball and penalty every time.
 
11101 said:
He jumped with his arms up first, then closed his eyes and his hands got pinned up by Lovren's body. That's a handball and penalty every time.
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Why is it though? It's not a calculated, deliberate use of the hand or arm. That is the rule. His absolute intention was not to handle the ball, at all. The rule specifically states 'deliberate'. I don't think it can be argued that the ball hitting his hand was deliberate. If it's not deliberate, it is not handball.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
Why is it though? It's not a calculated, deliberate use of the hand or arm. That is the rule. His absolute intention was not to handle the ball, at all. The rule specifically states 'deliberate'. I don't think it can be argued that the ball hitting his hand was deliberate. If it's not deliberate, it is not handball.
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Leading his jump with his hands was deliberate. Moving your hand towards the ball or having your hand in an unnatural position counts as deliberate handball, both of which he did.
 
Alex99 said:
Their goal shouldn't have happened either. The corner came from Lallana being offside and forcing someone to put it out of play to deal with him.
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You keep repeating that as if it is a fact. The last two touches came from Rojo (first snatching it away from Firmino and than putting it out of play, so Lallana couldn't have been offside).
Overall it was a standard good game from the Referee, not much to talk about.

Threads on Referee's on football forums are basically pointless, they'll just get pumped everytime someone wasn't happy with everyone agreeing that all Refs are shit and the standard is as low as ever. Referees are like everyone, they make an overall good job with mistakes from time to times. Not much too talk about. Yeah, some like playing themselves up on the pitch but that applies to a lot of people on television. They should get as much help as possible (video etc.) because a football match is quite complex for just 3 guys too keep an overview over what happens.
 
11101 said:
Leading his jump with his hands was deliberate. Moving your hand towards the ball or having your hand in an unnatural position counts as deliberate handball, both of which he did.
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He lead the jump with his hands, but that is pretty natural. Look at almost any header, and hands are up around shoulder to head height. You don't see players begin to jump with their arms by their sides. I don't believe he purposefully moved his hands towards the ball. He is not leading with his arms to win the ball with his hand. His absolute intention is to head the ball.

I also don't agree unnatural position is considered deliberate handball. The rules certainly make no mention of that, and it seems to be a fairly recent interpretation, which is marred by incredible inconsistency. I also don't think his hands are in that unnatural of a position anyway.

I'm not defending Pogba, as it was totally stupid. To close your eyes when the ball is that far away and just simply stick your head out and hope; it is bonkers. You'd get bollocked if you did that in PE at school, nevermind any sort if competitive level. But being stupid doesn't equate to deliberate handball.

I seem to be in the minority, but if that was given at the other end, I'd be thinking the same, that no chance it was a penalty, and we're very lucky to get it.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
I'm not defending Pogba, as it was totally stupid. To close your eyes when the ball is that far away and just simply stick your head out and hope; it is bonkers..
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A World Cup winning German captain had a stupid hand ball this Summer that cost his country a place in the final, I think sometimes it just happens. I can forgive him the handball, but jeez he was awful yesterday, sure he'll be back to brilliant in the next game though.
 
I thought Oliver was fine, today.
He didn't get anything particularly wrong worth mentioning.
No complaints.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
His 3 United matches this season, Watford, Everton & Liverpool and we've conceded a penalty in every one.

Not saying it wasn't a penalty. Just a weird thing
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I don't think it's weird if the decisions are correct or at least justifiable which i think all three were.
 
He was fine yesterday. It's actually quite embarrassing reading the reaction to every ref's performance after our games. Sure, we've had some shite decisions against us but we've also benefited from some decisions so it's swings and roundabouts really.

As for the Pogba handball and people saying we wouldn't have got that decision if it was us, that is simply not true. You will never see a more blatant penalty.
 
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