Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Snake Plissken]

You probably thought Messi carried Argentina to the final despite not doing zilch in the knockout stage.

Well he certainly got them through the last 16 round and he certainly propelled them through the qualifiers

Messi is irrelevant here though. You're point about Ronaldo is absolute nonsense. He didn't produce individual brilliance to get Portugal through, he was played through on the keeper by a very good midfield player.

 

[The Man Himself]

Basically qualified for the WC all by himself against Zlatan.

True. Ronaldo carries a lot inferior team better at international level compared to Messi's which is spoilt for riches. Just goes to show the importance of Barca system on Messi winning more trophies when he fails to turn up so often for Argentina.

 

[RedStarUnited]

What Messi and Ronaldo have done over the last 6 years is just insane, genuinely insane. They rack up stats like there's no tomorrow. Just today I read that Ronaldo got the same goal amount for Real as Raul with 347 (!) less matches played. How the feck is that even supposed to be possible?! Raul was a great striker for christ sake. How superior were Barca and/or Real to the rest of La Liga in Raul's prime?

Quality of team - La Liga was a lot more balanced in Rauls time than they are now.

Mentality - see below quotes from Hazard last week;

"I often ask myself what I can do to become like Messi and Ronaldo and score 50 or 60 goals in a season," Hazard told Sport/Foot Magazine.


"I try of course but I realise that I will never be a true scorer. It's not in me. It is mainly mental - at 2-0, not thinking that is enough, for example. Sometimes I still think, after a goal, 'that's enough'.


"I'm not in search of records like some other players... if I can score between 15 and 20 goals each season, I will be very happy.

Raul played in an era when you were considered a great striker if you had a ratio of 2:1.

 

[Snake Plissken]

True. Ronaldo carries a lot inferior team better at international level compared to Messi's which is spoilt for riches. Just goes to show the importance of Barca system on Messi winning more trophies when he fails to turn up so often for Argentina.

You're trying far too hard. Much like Ronaldo when he turns into a big floppy cock on the international stage

 

[Mogget]

True. Ronaldo carries a lot inferior team better at international level compared to Messi's which is spoilt for riches. Just goes to show the importance of Barca system on Messi winning more trophies when he fails to turn up so often for Argentina.

Ronaldo is more reliant on Real Madrid's system than Messi is on Barca's, I thought this had already been established.

 

[The Man Himself]

Ronaldo is more reliant on Real Madrid's system than Messi is on Barca's, I thought this had already been established.

Who established that? Ronaldo haters? People should stop thinking their opinions are established facts. I think Messi is more reliant on Barca system than Ronaldo in any system. Ronaldo can be equally good in any system. fwiw, Real don't have any established system. Not when the 3 latest managers have been Mourinho, Ancelotti and Benitez who have totally different styles.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Ronaldo doesn't really carry Portugal. The Portugese fans here keep repeating this yet the United fans won't believe them.

 

[Cal?]

Well he certainly got them through the last 16 round and he certainly propelled them through the qualifiers

Messi is irrelevant here though. You're point about Ronaldo is absolute nonsense. He didn't produce individual brilliance to get Portugal through, he was played through on the keeper by a very good midfield player.

The South AMerican qualifiers are so easy any half decent team makes it through.

Can you imagine 50% of Uefa countries making a WC?

 

[Cal?]

Ronaldo is more reliant on Real Madrid's system than Messi is on Barca's, I thought this had already been established.

The same Real Madrid who's had 4 managers since he's been there and all played different systems?

Right...

 

[Snake Plissken]

The South AMerican qualifiers are so easy any half decent team makes it through.

Can you imagine 50% of Uefa countries making a WC?

The South American qualifiers are the hardest.

Ronaldo needed a play off despite his team being in a group full of crap.

Only thing proven here is that you know little about football.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The same Real Madrid who's had 4 managers since he's been there and all played different systems?

Right...

I think he means that Ronaldo is more reliant on support/service from his teammates than Messi which is true to be honest.

 

[Snake Plissken]

I think he means that Ronaldo is more reliant on support/service from his teammates than Messi which is true to be honest.

Which ever system he's been in it's always been geared towards serving him anyway so even then it's not a point even worthy of anything because his role itself doesn't change much at all

 

[Duafc]

love this thread.

 

[Cheesy]

The South AMerican qualifiers are so easy any half decent team makes it through.

Can you imagine 50% of Uefa countries making a WC?

Not really. The standard of football in the South American qualifiers is very high: there's no dud teams there, and while there's games that Brazil/Argentina would be very surprised to lose, there's no games that are essentially guaranteed wins, unlike in the European qualifiers where the bottom seeds are woeful, and even the second bottom ones aren't that great. If you've got a European group, then if there's 6 teams in them, one or two generally aren't going to have any chance whatsoever of qualification.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Which ever system he's been in it's always been geared towards serving him anyway so even then it's not a point even worthy of anything because his role itself doesn't change much at all

I agree.

 

[JPRouve]

love this thread.

There should be a link to this thread next to the words "Bias" and "Delusion" in the Webster

 

[The Man Himself]

Not really. The standard of football in the South American qualifiers is very high: there's no dud teams there, and while there's games that Brazil/Argentina would be very surprised to lose, there's no games that are essentially guaranteed wins, unlike in the European qualifiers where the bottom seeds are woeful, and even the second bottom ones aren't that great. If you've got a European group, then if there's 6 teams in them, one or two generally aren't going to have any chance whatsoever of qualification.

That is true about South American teams not having San Marinos and likes and general standard is strong but not all teams are at top state simultaneously and in the end 4 or 5 go through a pool of 10. UEFA have 13 going through out of 53 or so. The "guaranteed wins" matches in UEFA qualification are pointless in the end as the qualification comes down to matches between top 2 and 3 in group. There it gets tough. Spain and Italy are in same group for 2018 qualification and only one will directly go through while other will have to take playoff route which can get tricky. This ignoring some decent teams which come from pot 3 during draw which makes it tougher. In CONMEBOL, top 4 go straight through and 5th has inter-confederation playoff with Oceania group! So it is almost top 5 guarantee to progress out of 10. Now, the competition might be tough but it is not so tough that Brazil and Argentina will have any issue in ending in top 5.

 

[Ish]

True. Ronaldo carries a lot inferior team better at international level compared to Messi's which is spoilt for riches. Just goes to show the importance of Barca system on Messi winning more trophies when he fails to turn up so often for Argentina.

Come on mate, surely you don't actually believe this? Our very own Portuguese fans on this board has refuted that exact claim about Ronaldo carrying Portugal...yet it's still thrown around here by united fans every now and again.

 

[The Man Himself]

Come on mate, surely you don't actually believe this? Our very own Portuguese fans on this board has refuted that exact claim about Ronaldo carrying Portugal...yet it's still thrown around here by united fans every now and again.

See by carrying I don't mean he does equally well as with Real Madrid. That's impossible. He comes up with important goals for them though. Without him they wouldn't have been in world cup 2014. If you expect a role in which Ronaldo plays, to dictate play and be central to passing and distributing, I don't see how that's going to happen and that too in team like Portugal. Yet his mere presence on pitch and ability to come up with key goals like in playoffs with Sweden means he is far too important for Portugal right now and that's the point of 'carrying.' Compared that with Messi in and Argentina and with the players Messi has got there in national team, his team should have done lot better with him in his prime but that hasn't happened. If he is miles better than Ronaldo, that hasn't reflected at international stage yet. Without him, their qualification campaign should not have any impact and in main tournament, if he goes missing like in knockouts of 2014 against better teams then it hardly matters and then he is basically same as Ronaldo, if not worse, while having lot better support cast.

 

[Ish]

See by carrying I don't mean he does equally well as with Real Madrid. That's impossible. He comes up with important goals for them though. Without him they wouldn't have been in world cup 2014. If you expect a role in which Ronaldo plays, to dictate play and be central to passing and distributing, I don't see how that's going to happen and that too in team like Portugal. Yet his mere presence on pitch and ability to come up with key goals like in playoffs with Sweden means he is far too important for Portugal right now and that's the point of 'carrying.' Compared that with Messi in and Argentina and with the players Messi has got there in national team, his team should have done lot better with him in his prime but that hasn't happened. If he is miles better than Ronaldo, that hasn't reflected at international stage yet. Without him, their qualification campaign should not have any impact and in main tournament, if he goes missing like in knockouts of 2014 against better teams then it hardly matters and then he is basically same as Ronaldo, if not worse, while having lot better support cast.

I don't fully agree with that tbh, but like you mentioned earlier, it's all opinions. Each to their own.

We've gone full circle with the Messi v Ronaldo debates on here, so it's kinda pointless with both camps regurgitating the same lines.

I said 2 things a while back -

1) Messi is better than Ronaldo. The difference is, Messi will be mentioned along the top 3 GOAT discussions, and Ronaldo will stake a claim to be in that top 20, maybe even top 10.

2) both their club stats have a huge level of "inflation" attached to it. Their sheer qualitative & quantitative advantage they hold over their league rivals is startling.That is extremely relevant - just look at both their NT records/struggles as evidence. Hence I think it's always something which should be relevant when compared to other greats of yesteryear.

I still stand by these. But it is only my opinion obviously.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Only if you over-rate his supporting cast, or do what you guys love to do, which is pretend that Ronaldo plays for the Faroe Islands and not Portugal with plenty of quality. Ronaldo's ability to come up with key goals for Portugal is very dependent on others. The Sweden games a great example of that, there's no individual brilliance in that performance, he's played against a high line and been given brilliant service by his midfield.

Messi's supporting cast is an irrelevance if they don't turn up. Aguero and Di Maria's name's look really nice on paper but what difference does it make if they don't show up? And neither did, not even in the group stages of the 2014 WC.

 

[The Man Himself]

I don't fully agree with that tbh, but like you mentioned earlier, it's all opinions. Each to their own.

We've gone full circle with the Messi v Ronaldo debates on here, so it's kinda pointless with both camps regurgitating the same lines.

I said 2 things a while back -

1) Messi is better than Ronaldo. The difference is, Messi will be mentioned along the top 3 GOAT discussions, and Ronaldo will stake a claim to be in that top 20, maybe even top 10.

2) both their club stats have a huge level of "inflation" attached to it. Their sheer qualitative & quantitative advantage they hold over their league rivals is startling.That is extremely relevant - just look at both their NT records/struggles as evidence. Hence I think it's always something which should be relevant when compared to other greats of yesteryear.

I still stand by these. But it is only my opinion obviously.

I don't have problem with people thinking Messi is better, their opinion in the end. I may agree with it with *conditions apply clause that it is because of a set system at club and advantage it brings to Messi and it is fine margins. I am not sure Ronaldo will end up as low as out of top 10, that's just comes with the need to attach mythical belief to football imo and then for people Ronaldinho become a better player and ranks higher. To me, someone like Ronaldinho doesn't and isn't close to Ronaldo even right now. Football is not just being more skillful on ball and able to do more with it and leaving fans in awe. If it is not sustained for long an if it is thrown away for lack of discipline, then strictly speaking that player isn't better than a guy who is incredible professional, doing outrageous scoring for so long now. Messi does the same and bit more because of a set system. So both for me are among very best all time. Messi clearly top 3 and Ronaldo just top 20? Not for me For historically top 3, football had too many absolute greats and it in the end comes down to personal preferences somewhat. Even there, the top 3, the top 5 is almost always about attackers and largely playmakers so am not sure even those debates are truly objective and all inclusive. Football is more than playmakers.

 

[Cal?]

The South American qualifiers are the hardest.

Ronaldo needed a play off despite his team being in a group full of crap.

Only thing proven here is that you know little about football.

The South American qualifiers are the hardest?

Never mind Argentina or Brazil, when was the last time anyone of note failing to make it?

Not really. The standard of football in the South American qualifiers is very high: there's no dud teams there, and while there's games that Brazil/Argentina would be very surprised to lose, there's no games that are essentially guaranteed wins, unlike in the European qualifiers where the bottom seeds are woeful, and even the second bottom ones aren't that great. If you've got a European group, then if there's 6 teams in them, one or two generally aren't going to have any chance whatsoever of qualification.

The likes of San Marino, Andorrra doesn't matter, everyone beats them and it doesn't make a difference. In the end, qualification comes down to the head-to-head amongst the top 2-3 sides in the group, which makes it much tougher when you get a tough draw, than having to play 18 games but having half the teams qualify. Let's face it, the 5th placed S American should always beat the 5th placed Asian side.

 

[fontaine]

The South American qualifiers are the hardest?

Never mind Argentina or Brazil, when was the last time anyone of note failing to make it?

when was the last time germany didn't make it?

 

[Donaldo]

'Ronaldo haters'

 

[Archie Leach]

'Ronaldo haters'

It's spelled with an 8, m8.

 

[fontaine]

RONALDO SUX LOL

MESSI > RONALDO

 

[Donaldo]

Who established that? Ronaldo haters?

Badddddooooooommmmm

People should stop thinking their opinions are established facts. I think Messi is more reliant on Barca system than Ronaldo in any system.

TISSSSSSHHHHH.

'Ronaldo h8rs'

 

[The Man Himself]

Badddddooooooommmmm




TISSSSSSHHHHH.

'Ronaldo h8rs'

Great point.

 

[Donaldo]

Great point.

People should stop thinking their opinions are established facts.

 

[The Man Himself]

People should stop thinking their opinions are established facts.

Yup but first one needs to understand the difference which someone like you is incapable of.

 

[Donaldo]

Yup but first one needs to understand the difference which someone like you is incapable of.

I think Ronaldo is more reliant on Madrid system than Messi in any system.

 

[The Man Himself]

I think Ronaldo is more reliant on Madrid system than Messi in any system.

Good. Hope you understand the difference between starting a sentence with 'I think...' which makes it an opinion and saying "this had been established long ago" which points to it being a fact.

 

[Donaldo]

To be fair "I thought this had already been established" puts it right in no mans land.

Ronaldo runs like a fairy.

 

[Moby]

To be fair "I thought this had already been established" puts it right in no mans land.

Ronaldo runs like a fairy.

Been ages since he last twatted arsenal though. One would think the wounds would have healed.

 

[Donaldo]

Been ages since he last twatted arsenal though. One would think the wounds would have healed.

I'm a Ronaldo hater 4 lyf.

 

[Ish]

I don't have problem with people thinking Messi is better, their opinion in the end. I may agree with it with *conditions apply clause that it is because of a set system at club and advantage it brings to Messi and it is fine margins. I am not sure Ronaldo will end up as low as out of top 10, that's just comes with the need to attach mythical belief to football imo and then for people Ronaldinho become a better player and ranks higher. To me, someone like Ronaldinho doesn't and isn't close to Ronaldo even right now. Football is not just being more skillful on ball and able to do more with it and leaving fans in awe. If it is not sustained for long an if it is thrown away for lack of discipline, then strictly speaking that player isn't better than a guy who is incredible professional, doing outrageous scoring for so long now. Messi does the same and bit more because of a set system. So both for me are among very best all time. Messi clearly top 3 and Ronaldo just top 20? Not for me For historically top 3, football had too many absolute greats and it in the end comes down to personal preferences somewhat. Even there, the top 3, the top 5 is almost always about attackers and largely playmakers so am not sure even those debates are truly objective and all inclusive. Football is more than playmakers.

Sorry for the late response TMH, had an early'ish night .

No worries man. Let's agree to disagree and move on! For the record, Ronaldinho is one of my all time favorites. So let's not even go there

 

[Revan]

Only if you over-rate his supporting cast, or do what you guys love to do, which is pretend that Ronaldo plays for the Faroe Islands and not Portugal with plenty of quality. Ronaldo's ability to come up with key goals for Portugal is very dependent on others. The Sweden games a great example of that, there's no individual brilliance in that performance, he's played against a high line and been given brilliant service by his midfield.

Messi's supporting cast is an irrelevance if they don't turn up. Aguero and Di Maria's name's look really nice on paper but what difference does it make if they don't show up? And neither did, not even in the group stages of the 2014 WC.

Portugal are very, very shit. They really are.

Anyway, Ronaldo doesn't generally win matches single handed for them. It is mostly a legend created after that hat trick against Sweden, but on general, he isn't that good for Portugal.

 

[Wade3]

Ronaldo is more reliant on Real Madrid's system than Messi is on Barca's, I thought this had already been established.

Then how come Ronaldo was capable of tearing the BPL apart?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Anyone think the gap between the 2's overall game is the biggest it's been since they both reached their prime?

Obviously Ronaldo's goal-scoring output is incredible, but his dribbling has regressed a lot and he's become a bit more reliant on service from teammates than usual. I can't remember the last time he scored a great solo goal. Whereas Messi's passing has gotten better and I'd say he's easily the best forward passer in the world + his noticeable improvement with his right foot.