They are dumb metrics. The club‘s or nation‘s trophy haul (or lack thereof) is almost completely irrelevant when judging who the „best“ player is.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Yeah, I reckon all of this is probably accurate. I've no dog in the race here. Love the player he was for us and the fact that it's with us he REALLY grew (not to diminish Sporting's huge contribution). I do think he's happy to be back at a place he always felt comfortable and agree that imo he would definitely have chosen us instead of city but also reckon if we hadn't come to the table he'd have gone to city.
I admit Messi is winning on that poll, but clearly not every poll.
Here's one from Marca with more than 400,000 votes:
https://www.marca.com/futbol/2020/04/02/5e85b0c5268e3e52608b457a.html
As for the Ballon D'or, since 2006:
Ronaldo > Messi: 06, 07, 08, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18 (8)
Messi > Ronaldo: 09, 10, 11, 12, 15, 19 (6)
Winning it more times does NOT mean he's had more votes in more years.
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This is definitely the worst thread on redcafe.
And you have proof City and PSG for sure didn't want him, specifically City?
Also, other CL teams -- none of them wanted him? magically, United his boyhood club was the only one willing to take a punt?
Seriously no need to exaggerate.
The real answer is we don't know. I've been very curious of this myself and so far I have not found conclusive evidence for either direction.
Heck, Roy Keane takes it a step further and said don't believe stories of Ronaldo being convinced by Fergie or Rio -- in his opinion he's a top player that sees it as a move that would benefit him the most.
yes That’s very true, plus serie a is massively defensive so I imagine it’s not as easy to score there either, I guess you could argue he has tested himself in tougher leagues. Plus the fact messi has gone to the French league, Ronaldo the PL, that might also act in messis favour, will be interesting to see.
It's the worst on the internet.
How did he prove himself with Juve? They won 7 league titles in a row, it's not like they needed him to win them more.
It’s a new league, new country, new language and at 33 years of age. Surely you can see that is a new challenge? He just proved himself by being the best player in yet another league and country. Just cause he went to Juve it doesn’t mean he didn’t score goals? He scored over a 100 goals in his 3 seasons there. It’s not like he scored 5-7 goals a year and won the league. Then you can definitely say he didn’t prove himself or he just was part of the squad there. But he was their top scorer. And not only his teams top scorer but the leagues top scorer at 36 years of age. How many players can say that playing for a competitive league?
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I just don't think there's any point trying to compare (particularly on this thread where you'll just get one end of two extremes) particularly now Messi is in Ligue 1.
Not for or against Ronaldo but averaging goals across a league isn't particularly accurate for what you're trying to say. Barcelona could be hammering teams 10-0 every week but if the rest of the league is of a poor standard and doesn't score many goals, the average could still be super low. Given Serie A has the nutters that are Atalanta and Napoli & LL was won by a team known for being defensive, I'd imagine this is very much the case.
He joined the best team in Italy by far and everything you are saying he did you will applaud and say what he did is fantastic, yet I bet you won't applaud Messi for doing the exact same thing by going to PSG.
Ronaldo got outscored by Quagliarella and Ciro Inmobile in Serie A in the first two seasons, while playing for the best team in the league
This isn’t even a Ronaldo vs Messi debate. I was just saying about how Ronaldo moving to United is still a challenge for him. When it’s all said and done Messi will surpass Ronaldo’s club goal scoring record by the time he retires.
Secondly Messi could do the same thing for PSG but there will always be an asterisk if he does cause of the quality of the French league. That will be agreed upon universally. Italian league isn’t the best league but they are still top 3. Hence achieving something in the Italian league is better than doing the same thing in the French league no matter who you are. Winning the Champions League is different. If Messi wins that there will be no asterisk.
They both had 5 more appearances and 5 more goals than him in the league. He is easily capable of scoring 5 goals in 5 appearances. Maybe he was rested cause he had bigger commitments with Champions League and internationals. I’m sure his full season goals total was still higher than either of them.
*Immobile
So my guess is that it was a prank to mess with people in what must be the most infamous thread on the forum and your guess is that it was done to protect the feelings of some of the other people in here.
I don't want to sound too biased here but my take looks indefinitely more plausible while your take just looks like textbook projecting. I can think of about a million reasons why the mods would want to prank people and laugh at whatever nonsense they say but I'm really struggling to find even a semi-good, sort of sensible reason as to why they would want to protect the feelings of anyone in here.
He cares for United but the fact that he had no problem joining city initially shows he probably just cared for Fergie more. He had no problem tainting his united legacy by going to city until Fergie saved him and convinced the glazers to go for him.
can you imagine Messi going to Madrid, or Gerard going to united or giggs going to city?
I think Ronaldo appreciates United but the fans here act like he has some undying love for the club which I don’t completely buy. I think he loves Fergie, but the fact that he was right on the verge for signing for city says quite a lot if we are being honest.
Are you medically insane? You think city didn’t want him? Psg? You absolutely would have heard of offers from PSG to Ronaldo. It’s Ronaldo ffs it would’ve been in the news if there was mutual interest. City didn’t even want to pay a transfer fee to Juventus, and Juventus just wanted to get his wages off the books.
You think every major CL club in Europe was lining up for Ronaldo? He’s 37 mate, it came down to city who even then were wavering with transfer fees until Fergie saved him.
I agree with much of what you're saying tbh. Yeah, I think his relationship with Fergie is key. I do think he has a lot of good feeling towards the club but also agree that if it was only city in for him, he'd have gone. That said, the city united rivalry isn't really the same as Liverpool United or Barca Madrid imo. You look at previous years, big Pete going to City and no huuuuge stir. Granted the noise would be louder these days but Liverpool and maybe even Leeds would remain bigger sins imo.
What ifs are you talking about? It does not matter whether you think it was done at the last minute or not. It took Messi 2-3 days to be off the market unlike Ronaldo & his desperate manager who has been offering him to every single top side for months)) .. See below link..
-- https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...os-return-to-manchester-united-after-12-years
"Mendes informally approached most of Europe’s big hitters including Madrid, Paris Saint-Germain, United, City and Chelsea but had received no firm encouragement about a potential move."
Now, let that sink in)
See below links as well..
-- https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...t-juventus-and-man-cityreturn-to-old-trafford
--https://en.as.com/en/2021/04/23/soccer/1619210418_910338.html
--https://www.goal.com/en/news/psg-chief-al-khelaifi-closes-door-on-ronaldo-transfer/s19i2lzw2q91zi626n6r38ia
--https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1430642177315639296
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Occam's razor, whoever it was is part of the Messi brigade.
I agree going to those other teams would be a bigger stir for sure
I asked for proof. Show me proof.
Totenham's interest in Messi was also not reported in the media. Is your conclusion that Totenham would not have bought Messi?
Again, this isn't your Bartha fantasy world -- you have any credible sources that show only Man United was interested in Ronaldo an no one else?
I asked for proof. Show me proof.
Totenham's interest in Messi was also not reported in the media. Is your conclusion that Totenham would not have bought Messi?
Again, this isn't your Bartha fantasy world -- you have any credible sources that show only Man United was interested in Ronaldo an no one else?
See the links above in my previous post. They contain more proof than you need)
It is already public info that he was rejected by Real, PSG, Chelsea etc.. and he joined United with last minute intervention. City only decided to join after failing to sign Kane and did not even agree with Juve on a transfer fee unlike United..
Ronaldo himself has said he took a pay cut but who is he to argue with salarysport.com.He did not take a paycut to leave Juve, wtf, he literally left Madrid for Juve because of money.
https://salarysport.com/football/player/cristiano-ronaldo/
Flo didn’t want to pay Ronaldo anymore than he already had so on top of the tax issues in Spain Ronaldo left to Italy.
but Ronaldo fans will make up whatever narrative they can.
As for United, he said he felt like a slave at United
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jul/11/manchesterunited.premierleague1
feck knows what the last point is made to achieve but I’m sure it signs a positive light on Messi somehow
They didn’t agree a few because Ronaldo wasn’t fully on board with the move as of yet hence his move to Utd.
This is such a weird argument to make.Utd literally stepped in at the last minute because he was fractions away from City. Rio etc who brokered the deal has said this. Ronaldo even says on record that it’s either Utd or City that he’s joining.
Ronaldo was full of it, he left Madrid for the money, period
I asked for proof. Show me proof.
Totenham's interest in Messi was also not reported in the media. Is your conclusion that Totenham would not have bought Messi?
Again, this isn't your Bartha fantasy world -- you have any credible sources that show only Man United was interested in Ronaldo an no one else?
Don’t be so thick @kc7 already has all the proof which has been common knowledge for some time.
but go ahead and take the Trump route of “fake news”
Says who? If you had better sources you wouldn’t be down to page 45 of google on salarysport.com. You literally have to go through so many stories saying he took a pay cut to get to the story you want to see! If you think Juve could pay higher wages than Madrid then you’re insane
Using Occam's razor to support a conspiracy theory is probably not the best way to go, but you do you mate.
How is someone having rigged this polls a conspiracy theory? Everyone who was around at that time knew about it.
You have sent me a link from AS where it says that Cristiano was targeting United, in April of this year, and yes, I think his goal was Madrid> United.
It does not seem like a crime to be rejected by Madrid when you are on your way to 37 years.
Itks from Madrid(that I at least consider top) warned in early August that Cristiano was going to United. Don't you think the City thing was a maneuver to rush United in some way?, unless what the guardian says is a commandment
Fabrizio Romano talks about everything, more than he knows. On August 25, he said that Camavinga was between psg and United when Madrid had been working on his signing for years. He has become a tool of the clubs.
Even Ramos told Florentino that Messi was going to PSG .One of the sheikh's relatives also said it months before . He was not two days in the market. Even Barcelona seemed to have the video of his farewell prepared.
In any case, as I told you, Cristiano's challenge seems much more motivating. Messi himself in an interview years ago, which I will try to find, speaks with tremendous disdain about the players who choose PSG
No, it is completely the opposite. City was reluctant to pay the fee and Guardiola had reservations about Ronaldo fitting in as reported in the ESPN article below. Juve fans on their forum were quite bitter of City not willing to pay any transfer fee as things were developing..
-- https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...t-juventus-and-man-cityreturn-to-old-trafford
" .....City began looking at how to make a deal work. There was a reluctance to meet the financial demands of both Juventus and Ronaldo -- he earned €31m net and bonuses per year at Juventus, who also asked for around €28m in a transfer fee to avoid a capital loss on the deal that brought Ronaldo from Real Madrid in 2018 -- and Pep Guardiola also had reservations about how he would fit in on and off the pitch...."
"... On Thursday night, Mendes received a proposal from United. On Friday morning, conversations with Juventus began and United assured the Italian club they were prepared to pay a fee, something City had so far resisted. .."
AND a lot of United guys directly contacted Ronaldo including SAF hearing about potential City move..Even Rio himself talked in detail about his phone call..
" his former United teammates Rio Ferdinand and Patrice Evra, Portugal teammate Bruno Fernandes, and Ferguson all got involved. For their part, Ferdinand and Ferguson told him simply "you cannot sign for City." Phone calls were made and WhatsApp messages sent to Ronaldo -- Evra later posted a portion of his conversation on Twitter -- while Woodward began talking to Mendes."
That's not true at all.
At the end of the day it's a team game and there are many great players that didn't achieve as much as they should for whatever reason but in his case (and Messi) it's hard to deny that they were the core reason (or one of the core reasons) behind their clubs / nation success and they should get rated for those achievements as well because they did it more times than 99,9% players in the history of the game.
That isn't dumb metrics but they don't give you the big picture because it's bordeline impossible to consider all the factors behind the impact of 1 single player. Like off pitch leadership / motivation for example
Sure, but the argument is about why it was done, not if it was done.
Let’s just say one need to be a genius in order to qualify as a maths professor at Oxford. And I won’t argue against the methodology and calculations by a genius.
sponsored by livescore who Ronaldo is an ambassador for
Would like to see this one updated and include one for Ronaldo:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
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