https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sp...t-by-oxford-maths-professor-20210907.amp.html
That wraps the debate. Ronaldo is the GOAT
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That wraps the debate. Ronaldo is the GOAT
/thread
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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So a clever algorithm based on dumb metrics.
Let's not fool ourselves, you may post extensive and detailed lines of arguments but it always boils down to the fact that you're talking about stuff that correlates only loosely with the individual class of the player. The criteria you deem important aren't based on your observations and knowledge of football, your opinion on football is based on your affection towards Cristiano Ronaldo. The outcome is preset and you are open to adjusting your arguments and opinions as long as they lead to a specific result.
And that's a common theme in here. In a way it is reminiscent of the Overton window. One side of the argument is constantly bringing up arguments that make no sense at all. Now it suddenly seems reasonable to discuss stuff that has nothing to do with the players as individuals, just because it still makes more sense than some of the insane things posted in here. Arguments that would never be used in other player comparisons. I mean, I've never seen such discussions in a transfer thread. When people discuss which option out of Sancho, Grealish and Coman is the best. Or Varane, Upamecano and Koundé. When it is really about finding the best player and few have any preferences going into the discussions, nobody talks about the stuff you're constantly bringing up (trophies, etc.). Same thing when other legends are discussed, e. g. Maradona vs. Pelé (which wouldn't even be a discussion based on your criteria).
I was joking but it kinda shows that the debate is not as one sided as some people like to believe. And they are not dumb metrics, but it doesn't show the complete picture and is somewhat biased.
You seem quite annoyed by the challenge aspect but a blind man can see it's not bollocks. This is where certain Messi fans just lose it for me, going so out of your way to negate one positive aspect of Ronaldo. Comes across as very insecure.
A man united team that has been for 8 years been on the hunt to get back to glory with former player turned manager at the helm, vs an oil rich club stocked to the brim with the worlds best players, whose B team would be expected to win the french league and makes it to CL semis and finals quite regularly?
Ronaldo has obviously took on a much bigger challenge than Messi. Whether that matters to you in who the better player is or isn't is a different discussion.
I think the "bollocks" he's referring to is the idea that Ronaldo went to United specifically because he wanted a challenge.
Not that United at this point isn't de facto a bigger challenge than PSG.
I think Ronaldo wants to be considered the GOAT/best ever/win a ballon d'or whatever you may call it.
I think he knows winning a major trophy with United will propel his chances way more than any other league. I also think signing up for the physicality of the premier league at 37, he must be thriving on the challenge aspect of it.
This thread is hilarious. Even the concept. They are both amazing, in different ways.
How many of the worlds best players have actually moved for a challenge? R9 went to Inter because they offered a huge salary that Barcelona werent prepared to meet. Maradonna had burnt his bridges with Barca and Napoli were the only ones offering the fee and salary befitting him. Pele spent almost his entire careeer with Santos. Ronaldo was pining for Madrid the moment he was world class and they were the best club in spain. He left Madrid when Perez wouldnt up his salary in 2018. Its not that there cant be something about it, its just that great players obviously dont go after the biggest challenge but money, personal fandom, trophies, glory, befitting team mates and location. If they wanted a challenge they would go to Stoke.
His transfer to United was all a result of City failing to sign Kane, and nothing else, that's why the transfer happened in the last minute by all accounts.. He was ready to move to Real, PSG etc. but turned down by all of them. You are talking like as if these teams were an option and as if he decided to choose United over Real, PSG etc.
If anything, the real challenge would be staying at Juve instead of leaving before the end of his contract just when things became more complicated there.. Ask Juve fans how they feel about his move, and see if they consider this move as taking on a new challenge or a coward escape "in the last minute".. definitely adds to his so called legacy)
I dont believe its one sided but prolific players, managers and pundits overwhelmingly side with Messi. Of course thats just like their opinion man. Ronaldo will always have his superior CL goal tally and trophies on his side, but apart from Ronaldos heading(which is legendary) and being a better pk taker, Messi's ability on the ball is just far greater.
Never ever said united isn’t a bigger challenge, just that Ronaldo wasn’t saying “what gives me the biggest challenge?” Cuz that narrative is BS. He just took whatever CL team was willing to have him. That’s it .
Exactly, the challenge angle has been absolute rubbish.
Undoubtedly.
Possibly - but most of that goes for City too. And the real question here is - of course - was he on his way to City before United (Fergie, who knows) intervened? To his fans, the most comfortable version of events is obviously that Ronaldo never considered City for a second and only ever wanted to "come home". But do we really believe that?
For the record, I don't care myself - but many people clearly do (it's relevant for the never-dying debate over whether he's a "United legend" or not, for one thing).
There’s plenty valid behind my reasoning if you actually look at the history. Muller played less games than Ronaldo. So you have to look at goal ratio. Muller has a better goal to game ratio at club level, at international level and in the World Cup. My point about ‘clutchness’ (which is a ridiculous unquantifiable notion anyway) is simply that Muller has scored the winning goal in a World Cup final, the winning goal in a Euros final and the winning goal in an EC final. Ronaldo has done none of these things (his goals in CL finals were not ‘winning goals’ per se). In fact he hasn’t even scored a goal in the KO rounds of the WC. Therefore Muller is the more prolific goalscorer and the better clutch goalscorer if it’s all about ‘winning goals’
Not all all, because Messi is not just a goalscorer. That’s the whole point. He is a creative player who also gets a lot of goals. He doesn’t stand or fall performance wise on whether he scores. He has been man of the match over 60 times in games where he hasn’t scored. For Ronaldo? 9 times.
All great achievements.
And then went to the US for money - yes.
You're obviously right, by the way. The idea of players moving for the "challenge" itself is ridiculous. It's fan fiction, if you will.
Which of the two actually has better records/stats? Aren’t they pretty similar?
I struggle to think of any. Suarez was desperate for Barca the moment they went for him. Kante left Leicester for Chelsea. Shearer went to Newcastle because the owners of blackburn refused to sell him to Fergie. Ferdinand was considering leaving Man utd before we were winning again. Rooney flirted with City when we replaced Ronaldo and Tevez with Owen and Valencia.
Have you tried transfermerkt or whoscored? They are very close in goals and trophies, but if you go beyond that the other stats arent close. Messi is arguarbly the best dribbler of all time or at least tied with Garrincha. His chance creation is on another level together with his playmaking abilities.
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Actually I don’t think you do. Picking the best option available to one is deemed a challenge to you it seemed
Literally Ronaldo to Madrid. He has said he wouldn’t have looked to leave Utd if we didn’t win the CL. Ronaldo also took a pay cut to join Juve.
It’s the one thing you can’t take away from Cristiano but people try. He has twice left sides who have been in consecutive CL finals for lesser teams
That was after Mansour, though - so if he had actually left at that point it would've arguably (as in - definitely) been about money as much as anything else.
The whole "lack of ambition" spiel was about money in the first place - he didn't really want to leave, he just wanted a fatter contract (which he eventually got).
Ya they wanted him enough to haggle on a fee with Juventus. A smiley and a nothing post will not change that factyou keep telling yourself that.
He did not take a paycut to leave Juve, wtf, he literally left Madrid for Juve because of money.
https://salarysport.com/football/player/cristiano-ronaldo/
Flo didn’t want to pay Ronaldo anymore than he already had so on top of the tax issues in Spain Ronaldo left to Italy.
but Ronaldo fans will make up whatever narrative they can.
As for United, he said he felt like a slave at United
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jul/11/manchesterunited.premierleague1
You were all strumming yourselves silly over the thought of getting Ronaldo, and when he fobs you off it’s the good old “we didn’t want him anyway” routine. Bitter much?
A lot of "if" but at the end the one who is in a competitive club is Cristiano.
I don't think it was done at the last minute. A contract like that doesn't close in five minutes.
In the same way that Messi did not close his deal in two days after his father's meeting with Laporta.
The one who left for money leaving the club of his life is Messi and on top of that he has gone to the club that is making life impossible for Barça.
Unless his challenge is to win the Champions League with PSG, although being the top favorites ...
Issue when asking this, whatever you think of La Liga as whole, is that Messi spent his whole career there so it's hard to do given Ronaldo has played across multiple leagues. If you look at their time together in LL as they are similar in age and played for the two dominant teams they were freakishly similar when you look at the stats:
Messi. 476 apps. 472 goals. 176 assists.
Ronaldo. 438 apps. 450 goals. 119 assists.
The truth is, Ronaldo's time at United is where his stats really suffer (and when I say suffer they are still good but more human) and that's why it's frustrating Messi never came to the PL as it would have been fascinating to see the comparison. Maybe Ronaldo can make that up this season!
So many posts with people claiming to know the ins and outs of this saga while choosing to believe the sources that suit their argument and ignoring the ones that don't. The only people that can be 100% of what went on are Ronaldo and his agent. For people that like Ronaldo, they'll believe the minute United entered the conversation there was only one club he'd go to. For those that dislike him, nobody except United wanted him.
That's not the narrative at all.
Those who dislike him (and also neutrals and United fans who don't worship him as such) are more likely to think that he could've easily gone to City if United hadn't stepped in and a) used Fergie to convince him b) offered him and/or Juventus more money or c) both.
Exactly on top of being given the biggest weekly wages in PL history
Also
The only reason Ronaldo is with us is because City didn't want to pay up the transfer fee. Fabrizio Romano has revealed it all. City were stalling with Mendes and then Mendes went to United after 2 days. Had City paid up the transfer fee he would be there and Mendes wouldn't have even approached us. Ronaldo actively wanted to go to City
To be fair, he most likely would've had that at City too.
But, yeah - if anyone thinks he was desperate to come back to United in order to help us back to glory...well, what can you say? It's fan fiction, as I said above.
Most (grown up) people don't believe this, of course - and most don't care (I would hope). It's perfectly possible to be excited about Ronaldo's return without entering irrational fan boy/girl mode.
It's even possible to be excited about Ronaldo's return on one level - while being somewhat sceptical about it on another level.
Yeah, but some people don't make a narrative (er...well, I suppose that isn't 100% true, but whatever: let's say the main narrative, then, for clarity).
So you don't feel he has any affection for the club at all? I dunno, call me a hopeless romantic but I imagine most people that associate a particular place with success and happiness are pleased to come back. I don't get the need to try to dampen enthusiasm in the name of rational posturing. The thing is, all the evidence available points to Ronaldo being happy and excited to return, unless I'm missing something?
Well, yeah, I guess I should have clarified I was talking about extremes either end.
Imagine using a none football ability metric to try and say why Ronaldo is better. 'He has played for more clubs, so he is better' is a silly argument.
Some people are even saying he is better because he has came back to United and the PL at 37. He hasn't even kicked a ball on his return yet people are using this as a reason for him being better.
Ronaldo fan boys keep using the challenge argument and more leagues argument, which isn't even a metric for footballing ability.
The arguments for Ronaldo are a bit flat and goal posts keep getting moved. Clutching at straws with new reasons pretty much sums it up.
Some people are even saying he is better because he has came back to United and the PL at 37. He hasn't even kicked a ball on his return yet people are using this as a reason for him being better.
Ronaldo fan boys keep using the challenge argument and more leagues argument, which isn't even a metric for footballing ability.
The arguments for Ronaldo are a bit flat and goal posts keep getting moved. Clutching at straws with new reasons pretty much sums it up.
Just cause he picked United doesn’t mean it’s easy for him. Challenge comes in different ways. Just cause he didn’t a weak team in Italy or a Championship team in England doesn’t mean he isn’t challenging himself. If he went to City or PSG then it’s not much of a challenge for him cause these teams have been winning league and domestic cups consistently for the past few years.
With United it’s a different type of challenge - can he perform again in the premier league which is the hardest in the world? Can he outscore the likes of Salah and Kane to the golden boot and prove his age isn’t holding him back? Can he lead this team to a trophy? Can he push this team to challenge for the league title? Can he lead this squad into the latter stages of the Champions League? Can he restore this club back to the top? Remember we haven’t won a trophy in 4 years and a league in 10 years. If you don’t think these are challenges then I’m not sure what to say to you.
He probably has a lot of affection for United - would be odd if he didn't. He certainly has a lot of affection for his time at United - and for SAF.
In a situation where everything (contract terms, squad strength, chances of boosting his legacy, etc.) was equal, I genuinely think he would choose United over City or PSG - sure.
The question (again - I personally don't give a feck) is whether he would've happily gone to City given the right circumstances. And...yeah, I think he would have. He values his own "brand" and his own legacy way above Manchester United (and anything United fans may think about him). That's obviously just my opinion/impression - perhaps I'm horribly wrong.
ETA So, given that - why didn't he sign for City?
Because in the end United were far more interested in signing him. It makes much more sense for United to sign him than City - for all sorts of reasons.
Would City have signed him if United simply had said "nah, feck it - let them have him"?
Yes, I think so (and Ronaldo would've been fine with that - excellent chance to win something big).
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What was he reasoning for choosing Juve then? They won 7 league titles in a row before he joined. The challenge was to win the CL and he failed at that.
The challenge at City and PSG is to win the CL, which they have never done, so obviously it is a tough challenge.
Cause no one else wanted to pay Madrid’s asking price of €100m? Also not many have won and dominated the top 3 leagues in Europe. He has. He conquered England. Then went to Spain and did the same. The only thing he didn’t do in Italy was win the UCL. But he still proved himself there at his age as well. I didn’t say he will lead every team he plays with to UCL glory but again that was a challenge and he didn’t make it. It’s part of life. You win some you lose some. Same could happen with United. He may not win a trophy here for the next 2 years.
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