Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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Pink Moon said:
What about the other side of the coin?

Barca do well = but Xavi! but Iniesta!

Barca/Argentina lose = supposed goat should be doing better!!

Portugal win = Ronaldo goat. I mean, the guy a few posts even came out with "inspired his teammates in a pen shootout as a pro for Ronaldo ffs

Portugal lose = rubbish team (see his 2014 excuse above)
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No Ronaldo has always had a rubbish team though...He still made do with it. In fact before him group stage was the norm for Portugal.

Inspiring your team is called being a Leader most GOATS have that Factor in them ala Jordan.

Messi cant do it so it does not matter?
 
Pink Moon said:
What has Ronaldo win without being surrounded by a great team? And for what it's worth, that Pep Barca team are only considered historically great because of Messi and you're lying if you say otherwise. As great as Xavi and Iniesta were they wouldn't have been as dominant without Messi. He scored 90+ goals in a year ffs.
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Well for starters, we wouldn't have won the cl in 200i without Ronaldo. Had he stayed we would've won at least a couple more PL titles, given we finished 1 point behind Chelsea in 2010 and level with city in 11-12.

Real wouldn't have 3 CLs in a row without him consistently scoring 10+ goals in the knockouts against the top teams.

Take him out of real and they don't win at least 2 of those 3 CLs, can't say the same for any other player on that real team.
 
SportingCP96 said:
No Ronaldo has always had a rubbish team though...He still made do with it. In fact before him group stage was the norm for Portugal.

Inspiring your team is called being a Leader most GOATS have that Factor in them ala Jordan.

Messi cant do it so it does not matter?
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Okay I'm out.
 
Pink Moon said:
I agree. That's why I like separate GOAT with BOAT. I think Messi is the best footballer of all time. I think he's clearly better than Ronaldo.

LeBron is easily the best basketball player ever but Jordan is easily the GOAT.
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So your saying that Ronaldo is the Goat correct?

BUT

Messi is the most talented player of all time?

If that is what you are saying then we are in full agreement.
 
Pink Moon said:
What about the other side of the coin?

Barca do well = but Xavi! but Iniesta!

Barca/Argentina lose = supposed goat should be doing better!!

Portugal win = Ronaldo goat. I mean, the guy a few posts even came out with "inspired his teammates in a pen shootout as a pro for Ronaldo ffs

Portugal lose = rubbish team (see his 2014 excuse above)
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It applies both ways, which is why this thread goes in circles.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Then you should know how overrated he is.
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It's hard to reason with Ronaldo fans who call every single all time great player overrated.

They think Ronaldo De Lima was overrated. Pele was overrated. Maradona was overrated.

Only a fool would think Pele was overrated.
 
Pink Moon said:
There's a few factors.

Portugal are a more cohesive team than Argentina. ARG have had 5 managers since Portugal hired theirs.

Portugal's team is better overall than Argentina's. Argentina have better attackers but in every other area of the pitch Portugal trump them.

Rui Patricio > Armani

Semedo, Pepe, Dias, Cancelo > Foyth, Pezzella, Otamendi, Tagliafico

Moutinho, Carvalho, Neves, Bernardo Silva, Guedes, Rafa, Bruno Fernandes > Paredes, De Paul, Guido Pizarro, Acuna, Lo Celso and whatever other sorry bunch they called up this time

Portugal's opposition are generally easier. Their last World Cup qualifying group contained Andorra, Latvia and the Faroe Islands. The one before that had Luxembourg, Israel and Azerbaijan. UEFA's member nations dwarfs CONMEBOL's where Argentina are always having to play good sides like Brazil, Chile, Colombia and Uruguay.

Once they actually get to the World Cup and it's a lottery as to who they play I wouldn't say Ronaldo has performed any better than Messi has. Messi led Argentina to the final in 2014 while Portugal couldn't even get out of a group containing USA and Ghana. Ronaldo had one good game at Euro 2016 and they still won the thing even without him in the final. Without Messi Argentina would be even worse than they are with him which is bloody awful.
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Messi-less Argentina beat Chile in the 2016 Copa America only to draw in the final with Messi and lose on penalties.

They've been playing for their national teams for 15 years, 2019 is the only year where the squads are even comparable. Messi's played in a much better international team throughout his career. Much better and it's not even remotely close. You complain about Foyth and Paredes? Ruben Micael, Custódio, Veloso, Eliseu... I mean, go check the squads we had between 2006 and 2019. Look at our starting eleven in the Euro 2016 knockout games for one.

I also love how William Carvalho spent the whole season getting massively outperformed by Lo Celso but now he's great and Lo Celso is poor? It's like magic how this works.

Semedo is great for Portugal but as soon as he puts a Barca shirt on he's not good enough. Same for André Gomes a couple of years ago. We start 35 year old José Fonte and don't even have a left back ffs.

And Ronaldo scores against Andorra and the Faroe Islands? Messi's last 10 goals for Argentina came against Nicaragua, Haiti, Nigeria, Paraguay and Ecuador's B team. He's never scored a goal vs Uruguay, Brazil, Chile or Colombia in any Copa America. Biggest team he's scored against in an international tournament is Mexico ffs. And it's not like he's short on tournaments. WC 2006, Copa America 2007, WC 2010, Copa America 2011, WC 2014, Copa America 2014, Copa America 2015, World Cup 2018, Copa America 2019. That's 9 international tournaments.
 
SportingCP96 said:
So your saying that Ronaldo is the Goat correct?

BUT

Messi is the most talented player of all time?

If that is what you are saying then we are in full agreement.
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I don't think Ronaldo is the GOAT either in that scenario either. If we're saying to be the GOAT you need to be great at football but also have that charisma, leadership, impact, aura etc then I'm going Maradona still and probably always will. Cruyff's impact on football would need to be considered too if you think about it.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
It's hard to reason with Ronaldo fans who call every single all time great player overrated.

They think Ronaldo De Lima was overrated. Pele was overrated. Maradona was overrated.

Only a fool would think Pele was overrated.
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Umm no. Ronaldo de Lima was fecking brilliant. As was Maradona.

I have explained on many occasions with stats on why Pele was overrated.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Ronaldo has not had rubbish teams with Portugal? Did you just start watching football this year?
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He's had some poor ones but always just isn't true. Even this 2014 team you say is so bad had good players like Pepe, Bruno Alves, Nani, Quaresma etc. Nani has probably played better for Portugal than any of Messi's Argentina teammates have if we're being real.
 
marktan said:
Fair enough, I've not seen that much but the bits ice seen did not compare to a say a 21 year old Ronaldo dribbling at full pace.

I just feel it's a bit hipstery to reuse old tiers of players and place players here and there, because those old players I doubt many have actually seen more than 30 minutes of selective footage of.
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Well when I compare players from the old age, I'm doing it in context.

Consider how poor the fields were back then, the medical field, nutrition advice, the football itself, the football cleats, etc.

The entire context of the sport was different.
 
Pink Moon said:
He's had some poor ones but always just isn't true. Even this 2014 team you say is so bad had good players like Pepe, Bruno Alves, Nani, Quaresma etc. Nani has probably played better for Portugal than any of Messi's Argentina teammates have if we're being real.
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Quaresma was not in that team

The core was Veloso Meireles and Moutinho.

Nani and Moutinho the only great players there.

Andre almeida was a starter as was Alves Varela was the weapon off the bench Hugo Almeida and Postiga the starters. Disgrace of a team.
 
Pink Moon said:
What has Ronaldo win without being surrounded by a great team? And for what it's worth, that Pep Barca team are only considered historically great because of Messi and you're lying if you say otherwise. As great as Xavi and Iniesta were they wouldn't have been as dominant without Messi. He scored 90+ goals in a year ffs.
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Ronaldo won the CL 5 times, the best of those teams wasn't as good as Messi's worst out of 2009, 2011 and 2015. He won more without as much help. You aren't going to win the CL without a great team but Messi didn't win it as part of great teams, he won it for teams that were a lot more than 'great'.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Quaresma was not in that team

The core was Veloso Meireles and Moutinho.

Nani and Moutinho the only great players there.

Andre almeida was a starter as was Alves Varela was the weapon off the bench Hugo Almeida and Postiga the starters. Disgrace of a team.
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Mate go look at the Argentina squad for this tournament and you'll see it goes both ways. This is my point. Good players will always shine brighter when they're surrounded by good players. That would've been true for Ronaldo in some Portugal teams and for Messi in Argentina ones.
 
Pink Moon said:
Mate go look at the Argentina squad for this tournament and you'll see it goes both ways. This is my point. Good players will always shine brighter when they're surrounded by good players. That would've been true for Ronaldo in some Portugal teams and for Messi in Argentina ones.
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He had a team with enough quality to get to a WC final something Portugal can only dream of. Dont feed me that.

Currently you can make a case Portugal is better but you must have forgot the absolute Championship level players he played with in Portugal.
 
SportingCP96 said:
He had a team with enough quality to get to a WC final something Portugal can only dream of. Dont feed me that.

Currently you can make a case Portugal is better but you must have forgot the absolute Championship level players he played with in Portugal.
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He was their star player in doing that though.

But hold up. When Argentina lose and someone mentions how crap their players are you always say "GOATs should be making players around them better" so why don't you use that argument for Ronaldo?
 
Pink Moon said:
He was their star player in doing that though.

But hold up. When Argentina lose and someone mentions how crap their players are you always say "GOATs should be making players around them better" so why don't you use that argument for Ronaldo?
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1.I didn't say that sentence you quoted.
2. Messi was good in the group stage vs Bosnia and Iran
3. Ronaldo did make his players better which is why we carried them to a Euro Semi finals in 2012 and carried them to the WC.
 
Pink Moon said:
He's had some poor ones but always just isn't true. Even this 2014 team you say is so bad had good players like Pepe, Bruno Alves, Nani, Quaresma etc. Nani has probably played better for Portugal than any of Messi's Argentina teammates have if we're being real.
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Pepe got sent off and suspended for the second game 30 minutes into the WC completely dooming us in 2014 after we had most of the starting eleven out injured, Nani missed tournaments and had injury problems plus lots of inconsistency. The problem here is people talk about Portugal's national team without really having followed us. Nobody here remembers the days of Liedson, Duda, Custódio, Ruben Micael, Hugo Almeida, Eliseu, Pedro Mendes, fullback Ricardo Costa, Rolando, João Pereira, Danny... then by not remembering that they come here to complain about Foyth, Otamendi and Paredes.

Messi had much better international teammates around him than Ronaldo. Much better, especially during their primes. Ronaldo had a great team around him in 2004 and slightly less so in 2006. Now in 2019 it's good but still nowhere near that. Look at our CBs... and we don't even have a leftback. Between 2006 and 2019 it was mostly complete crap kept consistently good enough to compete against top teams mainly thanks to Ronaldo.

There's a reason Moutinho, William, Patricio, etc. never played for top clubs. They were never top players. They have often overperformed for the national team because there's the right tactical platform for them to do so and again, that doesn't happen by accident and Ronaldo's most definitely the main reason why we play the way we do.

This was our starting eleven in the Euros semifinal vs Wales in 2016:

Patricio

Cedric-Fonte-Alves-Guerreiro

J.Mario-Adrien-Danilo-Sanches

Nani-Ronaldo​

That's 34 year old Bruno Alves and Nani after he'd been dumped by United. Pepe for Alves and William for Danilo in the final.
 


Imagine all the hate if Ronaldo had been the one giving this interview :lol:

Claiming they got robbed and that Conmebol won't change a thing because Brazil controls everything and they wanted them to lose. Looking forward to all the media outrage at this.
 
Peyroteo said:
Pepe got sent off and suspended for the second game 30 minutes into the WC completely dooming us in 2014 after we had most of the starting eleven out injured, Nani missed tournaments and had injury problems plus lots of inconsistency. The problem here is people talk about Portugal's national team without really having followed us. Nobody here remembers the days of Liedson, Duda, Custódio, Ruben Micael, Hugo Almeida, Eliseu, Pedro Mendes, fullback Ricardo Costa, Rolando, João Pereira, Danny... then by not remembering that they come here to complain about Foyth, Otamendi and Paredes.

Messi had much better international teammates around him than Ronaldo. Much better, especially during their primes. Ronaldo had a great team around him in 2004 and slightly less so in 2006. Now in 2019 it's good but still nowhere near that. Look at our CBs... and we don't even have a leftback. Between 2006 and 2019 it was mostly complete crap kept consistently good enough to compete against top teams mainly thanks to Ronaldo.

There's a reason Moutinho, William, Patricio, etc. never played for top clubs. They were never top players. They have often overperformed for the national team because there's the right tactical platform for them to do so and again, that doesn't happen by accident and Ronaldo's most definitely the main reason why we play the way we do.

This was our starting eleven in the Euros semifinal vs Wales in 2016:

Patricio

Cedric-Fonte-Alves-Guerreiro

J.Mario-Adrien-Danilo-Sanches

Nani-Ronaldo​

That's 34 year old Bruno Alves and Nani after he'd been dumped by United. Pepe for Alves and William for Danilo in the final.
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Just like you said people here talk about Portugal without have a dam near clue.
 
Disappointed Copa for Messi. I wonder would it affect his chance of winning Ballon D’or this year?
 
NYAS said:
Indeed. They want to switch to having it the same year as the Euros so are starting next summer. After that it’ll be 2024.
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This is crazy, I tend to watch both Copa America an Euros both having so many Copa's America in the space of 6 years just undervalues the competition itself. I can already envision a new Copa America Christmas Edition to be held in Rosario Central starring Argentina, Qatar and Haiti.

So like I said this only makes Euros look like a the more prestigious competition and at this rate winning one Euros equals winning 3 Copa Americas. So it really is a significantly bigger feat for Portugal to win one Euros even if Argentina happens to somehow win the next one next summer.
 
RedRonaldo said:
To be fair, Ronaldo has 3 goals and 3 assists in Euro 16, he is most productive player from Portugal.
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On a related note, anybody else miss Nani? The fact that he was Portugal's third best player in their euro 2016 win and consistently very good in that tournament makes me really think we could've gotten 3 more good seasons out of him had saf stayed (probably alongside a whole load of others players). We've not had anyone come close in terms of dribbling ability since.
 
Acheron said:
This is crazy, I tend to watch both Copa America an Euros both having so many Copa's America in the space of 6 years just undervalues the competition itself. I can already envision a new Copa America Christmas Edition to be held in Rosario Central starring Argentina, Qatar and Haiti.

So like I said this only makes Euros look like a the more prestigious competition and at this rate winning one Euros equals winning 3 Copa Americas. So it really is a significantly bigger feat for Portugal to win one Euros even if Argentina happens to somehow win the next one next summer.
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I agree with this completely. Not only is it more prestigious but it the more difficult competitors. I mean the Copa invited 2 random teams every edition. Its lame and is a second rate competition compared to the Euros hence why it does not get as much importance or hype as win the Euro starts.

If Argie wins next summer after having 4 or 5 Copas in the last 6 years is an utter joke. Has just a little more value than a Gold cup at this rate.
 
marktan said:
On a related note, anybody else miss Nani? The fact that he was Portugal's third best player in their euro 2016 win and consistently very good in that tournament makes me really think we could've gotten 3 more good seasons out of him had saf stayed (probably alongside a whole load of others players). We've not had anyone come close in terms of dribbling ability since.
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Was brilliant for Sporting both times he retuned and was great at Fenerbache as well. Also did decent in a horrid Valencia team. I love Nani:drool:
 
Billy Blaggs said:
Messi was pish tonight. Apart from a few good runs and decent set pieces he just walked around the pitch. He seemed disinterested.
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as usual. When the team isnt clearly the better team, he has no fight to dig deep. He has no spirit. This can't be new to people. It's been happening for nearly 4-5 years. Brilliant when he's team is clearly superior and he can show off his skills, garbage when his team is outclassed and doesnt want or cant (pick your poison) elevate his team
 
There are two ways to win big trophies:

1. Have a great team
2. Fluke it

There hasn't been one player that took a geniunely bad team to a deserved title. Even Maradona in 1990 required his team to at least not be shit. The legacy of every historically great player out there is closely associated with a great team, from di Stefano over Cruyff to Messi.

And 'best team' doesn't equal 'best squad'. If anyone believes Argentina had a good team at any point throughout Messi's career, they are wrong with the exception of Pekerman's in 2006. Apart from that, the 2014 one was the only team that wasn't completely dysfunctional and Messi in probably his worst form since his break through was their best player.



Anyway, it's so stupid that people have to explain this in order to 'defend' Messi. If this was any other versus thread, you'd be called out for arguing with trophies. Imagine someone arguing Keylor Navas was a better keeper than de Gea because he won more CLs and IIRC a Copa. And the reason for that is that at this point it is not even a question who's the better footballer.

This debate has always been kept alive by evangelists. Hence this discussion is always dragged to those areas in which Cristiano can compete. Goal stats in the KO rounds of the CL, longevity, trophies, mentality, leadership, team mates, awards etc.

And that's no coincidence. If we talk about prime, Messi under Guardiola wins it by countrymile. If we talk about pure footballing ability, Messi wins it by a countrymile. If we talk about domestic team achievements, Messi wins it by a countrymile. If we talk about career goal stats, Messi wins it by a countrymile. If we talk about career assist, key pass, dribbles or any other playmaking stat, Messi wi s it by a countrymile.

So we don't talk about these things and as soon as they are brought up, somebody quickly changes the agenda back to a topic Ronaldo can compete in. And we conveniently ignore that even if there's an area in which Cristiano has legit arguments speaking for him (all time goal stats and trophies in the CL), it is incredibly close while on the otger hand there are areas in which Messi takes it by quite a distance. Actually, the greater the distance is in favour of Messi, the lesser it gets weighted in the greater scheme of things.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Now go back to cheering that Messi again didn't take a shambolic Argentina side to a glorious victory ;)
 
Messi reached a WC final. CR didn't.

CR won an EuroChampionship sitting on the bench during the final. Messi reached two consecutive CopaAmerica finals, lost in the penalties.

Messi won a Gold Medal in the 2008 Olympics.

Is NT football truly the gold standard to define who was the better player?
 
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