Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Tostao_80]

This topsy turvy thread where now Ronaldo fans are saying Messi is playing better while the Messi fans are saying he isn't - we're through the looking glass here people

But its not just Messi fans saying it. Leo has been routinely been labelled as a bad performer in all 4 matches by virtually all media reports. This alternate reality whereby he is playing better than before, despite all evidence to contrary, is all one word, delusion. What chance of a reasonable discussion on here when some cant even see the wood from the trees?
Do you personally think he's playing better than before for Argentina?

 

[Saffron]

But its not just Messi fans saying it. Leo has been routinely been labelled as a bad performer in all 4 matches by virtually all media reports. This alternate reality whereby he is playing better than before, despite all evidence to contrary, is all one word, delusion. What chance of a reasonable discussion on here when some cant even see the wood from the trees?
Do you personally think he's playing better than before for Argentina?

It’s just a sly, backhanded way of trying to slate Messi as much as humanly possible. ”Silly Messi stayed out of the way, so therefore this was a great performance by him. He was also bad of course, but that’s just who Messi is. Plain old bad Messi.”

 

[MalcolmTucker]

But its not just Messi fans saying it. Leo has been routinely been labelled as a bad performer in all 4 matches by virtually all media reports. This alternate reality whereby he is playing better than before, despite all evidence to contrary, is all one word, delusion. What chance of a reasonable discussion on here when some cant even see the wood from the trees?
Do you personally think he's playing better than before for Argentina?

I only watched the first two games and he had 2 bad performances.

 

[Tostao_80]

I only watched the first two games and he had 2 bad performances.

He wasnt much better in his next 2 games.
I notice that Peyroteo still hasnt told us who he thought was better than Leo in WC18 qualifying. I wonder why.
I mean

 

[Schneckerl]

LVG has already correctly pointed out Messi's flaws. Pep saw the writing on the wall when Messi started averaging 5m in distance covered a game.

MAkes no off the ball movement 90% of the time, forces his team to play through him and does zero work off the ball. He is as much to blame for Barca getting embarrassed year after year in the cl as anyone.

I don't know if this post has any hidden intention to suggest that CR is better, just keep in mind that LVG called Messi the "best player in the world" and Pep called him the "best player ever - by far"

 

[RedRonaldo]

Is this Copa the worst ever Messi performance in major tournament? Granted he could still score hat-tricks in semi and final and finally win the Copa for the first time. But so far its been disappointing tournament for him, only score 1 penalty and 0 assists in 4 games, he has been mostly carried by his poor teammates in last 2 crucial games to get into semi.

 

[Krits]

485 pages of debate over Messi V Ronaldo when we all know Ronaldinho was better than both of them.


Heh.

 

[Saffron]

485 pages of debate over Messi V Ronaldo when we all know Ronaldinho was better than both of them.


Heh.

Zlatan says:

Zlatan Ibrahimovic believes Ronaldo was better than Ronaldinho and Cristiano Ronaldo.

When asked by ESPN Brasil which of the trio was superior, Ibrahimovic responded unwaveringly: “I think Ronaldo ‘Fenômeno'. For me he was an example of what football is. Everything he did was like ‘wow’. The way he dribbled, the way he ran, the way he scored goals, he was a genuine phenomenon.

“What he did, I don’t think anyone will do again. Because it was all natural to him, it wasn’t anything constructed. He wasn’t designed. Ronaldo was natural, he was born to be what he was. It wasn’t something he trained to become. This type of player isn’t built; he’s born. He is unique.”

“Ronaldinho was also phenomenal. We played together at Milan, but he wasn’t at his best like before. But I loved it when we played and he ran around with his hair all over the place, dribbling at speed. And when he wanted to, he made opponents look like children around him.

“As for [Cristiano Ronaldo], we didn’t play together. He is different, because he’s the fruit of a lot of training. He’s not natural.

“I think Messi is one of a kind. What he’s doing, I don’t know if we will see another player do the things that he does,” Ibrahimovic told ESPN. “I had the luck to see him every day and I saw what he was doing everyday. Like I said before, it’s like playing PlayStation: You give the ball to the guy and you start to go through every player and that’s who Messi is.”

 

[Welby5]

There isn’t any top player or top manager who thinks the level of football played at Champions League isn’t the best in the world.

WC, Euros or Copa America aren’t any sort of reference at tactical innovations. This tournaments are mainly driven by the pleasure it gives to the players because they are representing their countries, or to the fans.

It’s absurd to think because Miroslav Klose scored more goals in the WC’s than Ronaldo or Messi, his career is anything similar to theirs.

There is nothing above the Champions League at football level, understandable that some fans don’t like the elitist nature of the competition, but it’s hard to understand the arguments to measure the greatness of a player based on short term tournaments disputed in a space of 4 years.

Surely World Cup is probably the most important competition to be won, but it’s not everything. Pogba won the WC as key player for France, but he doesn’t gain much respect from the fans, Klose is the all time top scorer and won one for Germany too, but he wasn’t being discussed much and wasn’t consider anywhere near the best at any point of his career. Cruyff, Di Stéfano, Puskás, Best, Platini, Eusébio have never won any WC, with some of them rarely feature in any of WC matches, yet they are all widely regarded as one of GOAT for long time. I just felt, for most players, they could only feature in less than 10-20 WC games throughout their career, but at club football they usually feature over 500-900 games, surely being GOAT in over 500-900 games are more significance (or at least equal) than being GOAT on 10-20 WC games. (But the player is GOAT in both, then he will be definitely regarded as GOAT anyway)

Another thing is media coverage of football matches has changed drastically over time. In the old days world population could only watch WC, and couldn’t get access to most of the domestics league games or cup competitions. Nowadays any top leagues and CL are watched but hundreds of millions, so people tend to value those matches/competition more. In today’s world, the most prestigious and highest quality competition is CL, and with its global media coverage is also another significance factor. Being great on it will definitely be decisive factor on how the world would view on the players. Examples are Ballon D’or usually will be given to best performer in CL.

Cruyff never won a WC but was head and shouders above every other player in the 74 WC. The others you mentioned are greats, but a level below the likes of a Cruyff.

 

[Welby5]

On impact on football in general I agree. On an individual level, I think he should've won the world cup to be the greatest.

Holland were a goal up in the final and were robbed of a blatant penalty. Anyway, the important thing is, as an indvidual, Cruyff transferred his brilliant club level to the biggest stage of all, as did Pele, Maradona and a few others. Messi and CR7 simply were never able to do that, so though they are definately alltime greats, they should be rated a level below the very top level alltime greats.

 

[Welby5]

I agree. Still, he has been very lucky with injuries. He has 158 caps already and will likely finish with 180-190?
He already has the 4th most caps of all time if you exclude total nobodies in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman etc.

The ones above him are Ramos, Casillas and Buffon.


On the other hand, Maradona never won the European cup. Think about that, Messi gets ridiculed by LVG for ”only” winning the CL 3/4 times. Maradona never did it.

And his trophy cabinet aside from that 1 WC is downright laughable by GOAT standards. He has a grand total of 2 league titles in Europe. And a few cups no one really cares about.

He won the UEFA but that wasn’t even the second most prestigious club competition at that time according to old timers I’ve spoken to. It was third after the Cup winners’ cup, which Maradona never won either.

Really shows how much the WC is worth in people’s minds. Somehow I doubt he would get anywhere near the same recognition he gets today if his biggest claim to fame was 2 league titles.

I don’t think he’s overrated or anything. But I think that WC win put his status where it belongs. Otherwise he would be severely underrated today and hordes of Cals would mock him for not winning a major international title.

Most successful players vs best at their peaks. Well, as you pointed, if it's about tophies then Maradoona is a nomark. If it's genius and greatest at their peaks, Maradona is another who beats CR7 by a country mile! Messi and CR7 are very lucky to have what previous generations never had - laws and refs giving them maximum protection from thugs trying to cripple them week in week out. In Spain, refs stood by and watched Maradona being hacked down every game until he eventually suffered a broken leg after yet another brutal tackle/assult. One can imagine CR dealing with that every game. But,even so, Maradona became the first Barca player to ever be given a standing ovation by RM fans. Thats how great he was. Sadly, Diego got into Coke and fell out with Barca's owners. Went to Napoli and took them to the title for the first time ever and becoming the first club from the south to win it. After being kicked allover the shop in the 82 WC, he dominated the 86 WC. Without Maradona, that Argentina side would never have got past England let alone win the WC. Coke addiction followed and he declined after that. But a true genius of the game!

 

[KirkDuyt]

Holland were a goal up in the final and were robbed of a blatant penalty. Anyway, the important thing is, as an indvidual, Cruyff transferred his brilliant club level to the biggest stage of all, as did Pele, Maradona and a few others. Messi and CR7 simply were never able to do that, so though they are definately alltime greats, they should be rated a level below the very top level alltime greats.

Fair enough, but people will argue that Ronaldo at least win a trophy with his country. Of course Cruijff's 74 contribution is infinitely greater than what Messi and Ronaldo have done for their countries combined, but it's still no cups in the end.

 

[VanKenny]

Is this Copa the worst ever Messi performance in major tournament? Granted he could still score hat-tricks in semi and final and finally win the Copa for the first time. But so far its been disappointing tournament for him, only score 1 penalty and 0 assists in 4 games, he has been mostly carried by his poor teammates in last 2 crucial games to get into semi.

Dont you know man? This is by far the best version of Messi. Not his brutally fast, unstoppable RW version, not his false 9 ultra clinical dribble past everyone and break every scoring record version either, and certainly not his GOAT playmaker/brutal scorer/GOAT free kicks version of him of the last years.

The best Messi is by far the "doesnt score, doesnt dribble, barely touches the ball and walks all over the place, plays like he has something up there" Messi from 2019 Copa America.

 

[Tostao_80]

Dont you know man? This is by far the best version of Messi. Not his brutally fast, unstoppable RW version, not his false 9 ultra clinical dribble past everyone and break every scoring record version either, and certainly not his GOAT playmaker/brutal scorer/GOAT free kicks version of him of the last years.

The best Messi is by far the "doesnt score, doesnt dribble, barely touches the ball and walks all over the place, plays like he has something up there" Messi from 2019 Copa America.

Youre right. But dont you see, this new Messi for Argentina is actually good for the team. Theyre no longer the Messi dependent team of old (you know, the one that got to 4 finals in 8 tournaments), theyre much more balanced and therefore a better team. You can see this from their stellar displays at this years Copa. If they carry on like this, they might even bd favourites for WC 22.

 

[VanKenny]

Youre right. But dont you see, this new Messi for Argentina is actually good for the team. Theyre no longer the Messi dependent team of old (you know, the one that got to 4 finals in 8 tournaments), theyre much more balanced and therefore a better team. You can see this from their stellar displays at this years Copa. If they carry on like this, they might even bd favourites for WC 22.

Im wondering if we will see Barcelona take this same approach next season, now that we have discovered the absolute best version of Messi. Its not the scores more, assists more, creates more chances than anybody else in Europe version, its the complete opposite actually.

Jesuschrist i cant keep this up anymore , literally makes absolutely 0 sense.

 

[Tostao_80]

Im wondering if we will see Barcelona take this same approach next season, now that we have discovered the absolute best version of Messi. Its not the scores more, assists more, creates more chances than anybody else in Europe version, its the complete opposite actually.

Jesuschrist i cant keep this up anymore , literally makes absolutely 0 sense.

It really is unbelievable. I think Peyroteo really believes what he says. I wonder if the other Cristiano fans on here also think the same. If so, there is no hope with this thread.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Dont you know man? This is by far the best version of Messi. Not his brutally fast, unstoppable RW version, not his false 9 ultra clinical dribble past everyone and break every scoring record version either, and certainly not his GOAT playmaker/brutal scorer/GOAT free kicks version of him of the last years.

The best Messi is by far the "doesnt score, doesnt dribble, barely touches the ball and walks all over the place, plays like he has something up there" Messi from 2019 Copa America.

Individually he is not at his best, but to be fair one could argue Argentina is better off moving away from their over reliance of Messi, which doesn’t work well in recent years.

 

[Tostao_80]

Individually he is not at his best, but to be fair one could argue Argentina is better off moving away from their over reliance of Messi, which doesn’t work well in recent years.

Youve just seen 4 games of non reliance on Leo Messi. How did Argentina look?
How were Argentina faring whilst trying to qualify for WC18 without Leo? They were beyond atrocious. He literally had to come back and save them. They wouldn't have qualified without him.

 

[shahzy]

i cant wait till the day that some sensible people just call them the 2 GOATS and call it a day

 

[Cal?]

I wonder who's fault it is this time? The manager? Aguero? The wind?

 

[Pocho]

Best argentine player today. Deserved more though.

 

[Ole’s Wheel]

Dear Cristiano,


You are 34 years old and still you are carrying your country in major tournaments. How do you always do it?


Please reply.


- Leo





Portugal in European tournaments


Before Ronaldo:
- 1984: Semis
- 1988: Did not qualify
- 1992: Did not qualify
- 1996: Quarters
- 2000: Semis

With Ronaldo:
- 2004: Final
- 2008: Quarters
- 2012: Semis
- 2016: Winners
- 2019: Winners


...pretty remarkable when you consider their teams throughout the years. Even in the quarter’s an semi’s, to make it that far in the tournaments when they only had one or two star players on the team.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Best argentine player today. Deserved more though.

Lolz

 

[SportingCP96]

All I am saying is the apparent best in the world and of all time and captain of Argentina has a grand total of 1 goal for his team in this tournament (A penalty) and they get eliminated yet again.

This point has been made and proven time and time again but Barca Messi and Argie Messi are very different players. Say what you want but facts are facts it has been proven time and time and time again.

 

[SportingCP96]

Dear Cristiano,


You are 34 years old and still you are carrying your country in major tournaments. How do you always do it?


Please reply.


- Leo





Portugal in European tournaments


Before Ronaldo:
- 1984: Semis
- 1988: Did not qualify
- 1992: Did not qualify
- 1996: Quarters
- 2000: Semis

With Ronaldo:
- 2004: Final
- 2008: Quarters
- 2012: Semis
- 2016: Winners
- 2019: Winners


...pretty remarkable when you consider their teams throughout the years. Even in the quarter’s an semi’s, to make it that far in the tournaments when they only had one or two star players on the team.

Incredible that. Like I said many times Ronaldo is a different beast

 

[Pink Moon]

but Barca Messi and Argie Messi are very different players. Say what you want but facts are facts it has been proven time and time and time again.

Good player plays better when surrounded by better players shocker...

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Good player plays better when surrounded by better players shocker...

But the GOAT is supposed to make players around him look good or the narrative changes when he plays for NT?

 

[Ole’s Wheel]

Good player plays better when surrounded by better players shocker...

Yea, because he apparently doesn’t play for Argentina but Nigeria instead

 

[Pink Moon]

Yea, because he apparently doesn’t play for Argentina but Nigeria instead

The people who think Argentina are actually a good team either think football is played on paper or base their opinions on FIFA.

 

[SportingCP96]

Good player plays better when surrounded by better players shocker...

So how come Ronaldo is the same player for club and country all while playing for a worse team a MAJORITY of his national team career?

 

[Pink Moon]

But the GOAT is supposed to make players around him look good or the narrative changes when he plays for NT?

What narrative?

It's abundantly clear that the players at Barcelona are far better than Argentina's. Literally every single Barcelona player is better than their Argentina counterparts. The only one you can even argue is Aguero and I'd still take Suarez over him.

 

[SportingCP96]

Just checking to see if the Poll opened.

 

[Ole’s Wheel]

The people who think Argentina are actually a good team either think football is played on paper or base their opinions on FIFA.

And the people who think Argentina are a subpar team either think football success doesn’t mean needing quality players or base their opinions off emotions.

...can’t believe some people are still trying to convince the world that Messi plays for a terrible team

 

[Fridge chutney]

Poll:
Messi: 63%
Ronaldo: 37%

Case closed.

 

[SportingCP96]

Poll:
Messi: 63%
Ronaldo: 37%

Case closed.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

For his standards, Messi was rather poor the entire Copa.

I think he should retire from the NT or work on his conditioning/nutrition. Does he still have the same nutritionist from 2015?

 

[SportingCP96]

For his standards, Messi was rather poor the entire Copa.

I think he should retire from the NT or work on his conditioning/nutrition. Does he still have the same nutritionist from 2015?

He's done it once I am sure he would do it again.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

So how come Ronaldo is the same player for club and country all while playing for a worse team a MAJORITY of his national team career?

He literally performs worse for Portugal...

 

[thejtrain]

I wonder who's fault it is this time? The manager? Aguero? The wind?

Nah, it's the bar he's set for himself. He was actually great, you know - the rest of the players make him look bad.

 

[Pink Moon]

So how come Ronaldo is the same player for club and country all while playing for a worse team a MAJORITY of his national team career?

There's a few factors.

Portugal are a more cohesive team than Argentina. ARG have had 5 managers since Portugal hired theirs.

Portugal's team is better overall than Argentina's. Argentina have better attackers but in every other area of the pitch Portugal trump them.

Rui Patricio > Armani

Semedo, Pepe, Dias, Cancelo > Foyth, Pezzella, Otamendi, Tagliafico

Moutinho, Carvalho, Neves, Bernardo Silva, Guedes, Rafa, Bruno Fernandes > Paredes, De Paul, Guido Pizarro, Acuna, Lo Celso and whatever other sorry bunch they called up this time

Portugal's opposition are generally easier. Their last World Cup qualifying group contained Andorra, Latvia and the Faroe Islands. The one before that had Luxembourg, Israel and Azerbaijan. UEFA's member nations dwarfs CONMEBOL's where Argentina are always having to play good sides like Brazil, Chile, Colombia and Uruguay.

Once they actually get to the World Cup and it's a lottery as to who they play I wouldn't say Ronaldo has performed any better than Messi has. Messi led Argentina to the final in 2014 while Portugal couldn't even get out of a group containing USA and Ghana. Ronaldo had one good game at Euro 2016 and they still won the thing even without him in the final. Without Messi Argentina would be even worse than they are with him which is bloody awful.