Can you name me 3 easier opponents to get to a final in the CL era than Austria Vienna, Torino, Club Brugge of 77? Thats ridiculous.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Can you name me 3 easier opponents to get to a final in the CL era than Austria Vienna, Torino, Club Brugge of 77? Thats ridiculous.
It’s funny how there are always clear quotes saying Messi is better, but all these supposed Ronaldo quotes are nowhere near as definite. Can’t people just quote them directly instead of implying for example that Mbappe clearly prefers Ronaldo? I can’t find it.
Here’s the closest I found on Mbappe:
“I could choose one, but it would likely be at the expense of the other. And you don’t have the right to denigrate one of these two monsters. To choose one would be an insult to everything that the other has achieved.
When I was younger, I had fun comparing them both. From one year to the next, I changed [who he preferred], even though I admit to having defended Ronaldo more often.”
Not really the same thing is it? Jeez.
And having someone as an ’idol’ growing up is hardly the same thing as declaring him the best in the world today. My idol was a player I liked, even though I knew he wasn’t necessarily the best.
Both brilliant, explosive players, albeit one of them more popular with fans of other clubs.
Not sure it needs 484 pages.
Not sure it needs 484 pages.
It is all immaterial, Cruyff is the goat. He utterly revolutionised football as a player, manager and with his general football philosophy which is the greatest legacy any person has left on football. The man changed the entire game and what we see today can be directly attributed to him. Was pele or maradona better? Maybe. Is Ronaldo or Messi better? Maybe. But no one influenced the game like he did, the dude is the GOAT.
I'm probably a bit bias right now as I just finished up Cruyff's autobiography.
I'm probably a bit bias right now as I just finished up Cruyff's autobiography.
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On impact on football in general I agree. On an individual level, I think he should've won the world cup to be the greatest.
I don't know, have always felt the whole world cup is a bit misleading. We could all argue to the cows come home, and we do, who is the best, messi, ronaldo, maradona, pele, di Stefano, Cruyff, beckenbauer, puskas, I could go on. All these guys done amazing things with a football and led teams to great things, whether that be club or international football. For me GOAT comes down to overall legacy and Cruyff wins that hands down.
LVG has already correctly pointed out Messi's flaws. Pep saw the writing on the wall when Messi started averaging 5m in distance covered a game.
MAkes no off the ball movement 90% of the time, forces his team to play through him and does zero work off the ball. He is as much to blame for Barca getting embarrassed year after year in the cl as anyone.
MAkes no off the ball movement 90% of the time, forces his team to play through him and does zero work off the ball. He is as much to blame for Barca getting embarrassed year after year in the cl as anyone.
Messi's playing better in this Copa America than when everyone was saying he was carrying the team by making everything go through him and not allowing other forwards to shine. Argentina are much better when they play as a team instead of playing to boost Messi's involvement, as are Barcelona. Much more dangerous with Messi having half the productivity but allowing Coutinho, Dembele and now Griezmann to have bigger roles than with him 'carrying' them only for those players to be half as good as what they're able to.
He still obviously has to do more than what he's shown, just because he did the right thing by adapting doesn't mean he can't still have great games. This is a step in the right direction but with 2 games from the title he needs to actually show up now.
He's the best player ever when the circumstances are right for him, when the game isn't going his team's way or when the style of play doesn't suit him then not so much.
He still obviously has to do more than what he's shown, just because he did the right thing by adapting doesn't mean he can't still have great games. This is a step in the right direction but with 2 games from the title he needs to actually show up now.
He's the best player ever when the circumstances are right for him, when the game isn't going his team's way or when the style of play doesn't suit him then not so much.
Dishonest post. You basicly have your argument already set and have decided to alter reality to suit your narrative.
Leo Messi has been BAD this Copa. Honest Barca and Argie fans will tell you the same. Not only has his productivity (goals and assists) been amongst the worst in any of his tournaments in the last 10 years, but his level of play? Dire. In all his tournaments for Argentina in the last 10 years, goals, assists or not, he has always had at least some matches where he was the best player on the pitch.
This poor Messi is not helping Argentina. They are not better with a less involved Leo. They are still not very good. Who picks up fhe creative slack without Leo, a useless and past it Di Maria, in and out inconsistent Lo Celso, the not so great Lautaro Martinez, the average De Paul?
The quality isnt there without Leo.
And where is this adapting that you speak of? He's being given a free role and there are times where Kun is dropping deep to win the ball while Leo is walking. He hasn't adapted, hes taking up pretty much the same spaces and runs he used to, things just arent coming off.
At the moment, this is the worst tournament Leo since 2007, and its not even close.
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How did I alter reality then? So far it might very well be up there his worst tournament of the past few years, we can agree on that. But the difference between this and what they've shown in the past 1/2 years is that their gameplan has clearly stopped being to maximize Messi's involvement as much as possible.
You say he's worse because he has a suitable role that doesn't make him the centre of the team. No shit he's going to show up a lot more often when they're literally forcing all their attacks to go through him. The difference is the tactics, not his level of play. Take Lautaro off and add a midfielder and Messi becomes more productive while Argentina becomes worse.
Also, who is going to pick up the slack if he's not creating? How about some of the incredible forwards Argentina have? They arguably have better attacking talent than any country in the world ffs. In case you haven't noticed Lionel Messi plays for Argentina, not Venezuela. The bold part is mental. Di Maria, Aguero, Lautaro, Dybala, De Paul, Pereyra and Lo Celso... what else do you want? De Bruyne and Neymar? If there's something Argentina don't miss is talented forwards.
Two strikers in front of him is clearly the way to go and it decreases the chances of him being the one deciding games but it does help Argentina. If the gameplan remains the same at Barca next season I guarantee you Griezmann will look half the player in a Barcelona shirt than he did in an Atletico shirt the same way it happened to Coutinho. Then we're going to spend next season arguing about how Messi is carrying a Barcelona team with a strikeforce that cost a half a billion euros.
Can't believe someone actually put Algeria, Albania, Slovenia, Bosnia and Bolivia on the same level as the likes of Andorra, Faroes etc. 
Of course I’m aware of that image. Like I said, he has since explicitly stated that he used to switch back and forth between Messi and Ronaldo and does NOT have a clear favorite today. That was in my post, but you conveniently edited it out.
Can’t you just let the guy speak for himself? Why do you feel the need to disregard Mbappé’s OWN WORDS and go with an image that doesn’t mean what you think it means?
Firstly, you altered reality when you said that Messi is playing better than in the past. Thats wrong. He's not. Thats clear for all to see.
Another point, you say that his level of play is no different as tactics have changed. Wrong again. Regardless of team structure (which has been dire in the past. Remember WC10?), Leo Messi has in the last 10 years on an individual basis still showcased his dribbling and passing in tournaments for Argentina. They dominated spells against Venezuela. Where was his creativity then? He has had enough ball and been in enough dangerous situations to have created more. Yet he hasnt. His general level of play has been poor.
Also, nice of you to mention those talented forwards but again thats not reflected in reality. How many of those forwards are high class creators? Di Maria is past it and hasnt been good for Argentina in ages. Hes only started one match. Lautaro is decent and young, but not very creative. De Paul is decent and workmanlike, not very creative. Aguero is very good for club but again, not very creative. Lo Celso (shows promise) and Pereyra are creative but arent high level.
The less about Dybala the better. Hes averaging 10 minutes a match.
So, back to my point. The reality for Argentina is that without Leo Messi, there is no one who can be relied upen to constantly create to a very good level.
Lastly, France have better forwards AND chance creators. That is without doubt.
Sancho called Cristiano an ’inspiration’ and you immediately jump to the conclusion he thinks he’s better than Messi? You really are that desperate.
Again, here’s what definite quotes look like:
”Best player in the world?” Trent Alexander-Arnold: “Messi”
“Who is better, Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo?” Vinicius Junior: “Messi, Messi.”
Harry Winks: “To play against him [Messi] was an honour. The result takes away a lot of the enjoyment from the game, but in years to come, when I look back and say I played against, in my opinion, the greatest player to ever play football, it will be a proud moment”
Marcus Rashford: “I have to say Messi - some of the stuff that he does is unbelievable. I’m a big fan of Ronaldo as well but I think Messi is the greatest ever.”
Raheem Sterling: “And then it’s the GOAT himself, the greatest player to ever touch a football field, Lionel Messi. Gets it in there.”
Matthijs de Ligt and Frenkie de Jong: “Messi or Ronaldo? Messi. I think we both agree on that. Not much explanation needed, Messi is much better than Ronaldo.”
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He is playing better than he has in the past for Argentina, that is clear to see if you consider the tactics and gameplan into account rather than rate individual performances as if they happen in a vaccum and aren't influenced by the circumstances of the game and the gameplan of his own team. You'd rate it as better performances if he created 2 more chances a game even if he did it by playing in a way that lowered Argentina's chances to win. That's the problem.
Di Maria is finished? He just had a great season for PSG. Aguero can't create? Lautaro is useless? De Paul was one of the best chance creators in Serie A... Lo Celso had an insane season for Betis. Do you follow these players at all?
Okay. My conclusion is that you haven't watched Leo at all this tournament.
You think that Kun Aguero is going to fill the creativity void left by Leo, on a consistent basis? That's the point i was making.
Regarding Di Maria, the French league is not a high quality league. You think Lautaro and De Paul can consistently create for Argentina to a high level? Have you seen them play? Lo Celso has promise, albeit for a team like Betis.
Lets open this question to the forum.
All, is Leo Messi in this Copa playing better than in the past? Or is it a figment of his imagination? If you think hes bern playing better, wgat ratings would you give him out of 10 in his 4 matches? And has he been thd best player on the pitch in any of the 4 matches?
Of course he is not.
Wasting your time with said poster who has some extremely mental opinions to say the least.
Promise? He was one of the best midfielders in La Liga ffs with the best teams in the world after him. There's no promise, he's made it.
Do you even watch the french league to comment about how poor it is? I guess Mbappe's great season is meaningless too then and France don't actually have a good team either. I'd bet anything you haven't watched more than a couple of Di Maria games all season after those comments.
Of course this Argentina team without Messi should have absolutely no trouble in creating chances when they have multiple great forwards and attacking midfielders. Chile play Eduardo Vargas, Brazil play Everton, Uruguay play Arrascaeta, Colombia play Muriel and Cuadrado and you're complaining about Lautaro, Aguero, Dybala, Lo Celso and De Paul? This is the Copa America, not the Champions League... what the hell else do you want to win the tournament and create chances at a decent rate? Neymar and Griezmann? Younger clones of Xavi and Iniesta?
He's had plenty of 4 game stretches for Argentina that have been worse than this. You're making that question here with people that praise him for his performances regardless of all context involved.
If most people here don't understand that the circumstances of the game and the team's gameplan massively affects a player's performance then it's their problem, not mine. If you're more impressed with him making two more brilliant passes per game despite having loads more opportunities due to the team playing for it despite it lowering the involvement of other players and the chances of his team winning matches then so be it.
Right... aren't you the guy who said Colombia have a better squad than Argentina??
This is so fecking stupid. Is there anyone here who actually has any sort of clue about football?
You don't even watch the games for fecks sake. You're giving out opinions about players you don't even watch in order to make a player look better. Then I'm mental... yeah no shit.
Coming from the guy who says Kazakhstan were a good team.
Argentina FA choose where and when to host the CA and Messi is playing better this Copa than before plus much more.
Its clear you're the mental one who doesn't watch games.
Argentina FA choose where and when to host the CA and Messi is playing better this Copa than before plus much more.
Its clear you're the mental one who doesn't watch games.
I didn't say that.
And I didn't say that.
You can't even read nevermind formulate any sort of decent thought about football.
Continue with your incessant lies and propaganda if it makes you happy then. Your posts aren't mental in the slightest, you're just so offended at my opinions you keep lying about my opinion on Khazakhstan from 5 months ago. That's not mental at all mate.
Looking forward to seeing your posts about Stefan Medina from Monterrey and how much you know about him.
You??
They're a good team for that level, obviously. Just like when I'm talking about League One I can say Doncaster Rovers are pretty good... sorry, I forgot I was talking to someone with no concept of context.
Stop obsessing over my posts. Don't like me, put me on ignore rather than act pathetic and bringing up lies every time I make a post you don't like.
Right... aren't you the guy who said Colombia have a better squad than Argentina??
This is so fecking stupid. Is there anyone here who actually has any sort of clue about football?
You don't even watch the games for fecks sake. You're giving out opinions about players you don't even watch in order to make a player look better. Then I'm mental... yeah no shit.
Are you really calling someone else on not watching football?
Youve just seen (this part is debatable for me) Leo Messi have 4 dire/ poor games for Argentina and you come on here claiming hes playing better than before.
Delusion would be too soft a word.
He's had plenty of 4 game stretches worse than this... so yes, he's playing better than before. He played better vs Venezuela than when you and others were praising him for performances in which he scored and played a couple of great passes despite him actually making the team worse.
You and many other people here judge individual performances as if football was an individual sport rather than a team sport. You judge individual performances with no regard for the game and the context in which it happens.
No shit he can play more great passes and dribbles when he's getting the ball between the lines or dropping deep to get it rather than after his team scores early and then spends the rest of the match playing on the counter which isn't his strength.
And I didn't actually say he was playing well. I said I agreed it's probably up there as his worst tournament so far and that individually he hasn't shown enough.
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Again, reality check. Argentina scored in the 10th minute and the possession stats in the first half were 51/49%. Hardly indicative of playing on the break for the rest of the match.
Lastly, youve started to back pedal Amand are contradicting yourself.
How can you on the one hand say hes playing better than before and then an hour later say that this is probably his worst tournament so far?
Youre tying yourself in knots. He's been dire this tournament.
Mbappe was a Real Madrid fan growing up, that is a fact. He definitely idolised Ronaldo more. I'm not disregarding his words. Yes, maybe today he doesn't have a favourite.
Sancho has said his favourite player growing up was Ronaldo.
Also, funny because the rest of those players have said they prefer Ronaldo at certain points in time...
Rashford:
He says Ronaldo is the "best he's seen growing up"...
De Ligt on Ronaldo:
Sterling grew up a Man Utd fan idolising Ronaldo.
Because there's been one tournament in which he played 4 games in the past 3 years other than this Copa America? He's playing better than in the World Cup qualification which he got praised for. I'd put it as the same level as the World Cup.
Possession stats don't indicate gameplan, you can play on the break or defensively and still have lots of possession.
Wrong again.
He was by far and away Argentinas best player in qualifying
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...much-argentina-depends-upon-lionel-messi/amp/
He was better in the world cup also. He scored and had a MOM in the win against Nigeria and despite bot being at his best, came up with 2 assists in the the 2nd round defeat to France.
What has he done in this Copa that comes close to that?
Youre not going to convince anyone. This is the worst Leo Messi Argentina have seen in a competitive tournament in the last 10 years. You can try and move the goalposts and include qualifying also but he's not been this bad.
He was Argentina's best player in qualifying in your way of viewing football because they literally did feck all in attack bar passing the ball to him in all circumstances and wait for him to do something. Of course he was more involved, he wasn't better though. They would have been much better if he played like he's playing and wouldn't have had half the trouble.
His performance vs Nigeria was the best of the past 2 tournaments, but his level at the start of the World Cup was lower than this.
You can keep completely ignoring all context as to how his team were playing and rate his performances by how many goals he scored and how many good passes he had. I've literally written paragraphs as to why I believe that to be completely wrong, you telling me he did better by citing the exact same things that I said is bullshit will obviously convince me of absolutely nothing.
A player is as good as his impact on the team overall, not on how many goals he scores or passes he makes. The Messi that plays for Argentina is the same Messi that plays for Barcelona, the circumstances just change so the number of goals and passes change. He's the exact same player though, not better or worse.
Common theme here: Ronaldo was their idol when they were kids. That doesn’t mean anything. It’s very common to just pick a player you like to be your idol when you’re 7-8 years old. That doesn’t mean you made a calculated decision that he’s the definite best player in the world. As adults, several of those players explicitly say Messi is better. None of them explicitly say Ronaldo is better.
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Okay. You really need to clear this up because youre not making much sense. Please be specific and tell us. What is this new way of playing that Messi is showing us at this Copa? What is he doing differently and how is it helping the team. All i see is the same old Leo, dropping deep to get the ball sometimes, pulling out to the right wing sometimes, playing between the lines and running at centre backs, and walking while Lauataro and Kun are chasing back to win the ball. He HAS attempted dribbles and through balls, and many of them havent come off. Hes averaging 3 shots a match but the quality hasnt been there. There is nothing he is doing that is different to what he usually does.
And you explaining how this new way of playing helps the team should be interesting. Argentina have still been dire. How has it helped them.
And lastly, you said that Leo was only the best player in qualifying only in the way that u view football. Please tell me who was better than him in qualifying.
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Can’t we just agree to disagree?
@Peyroteo is still going on with this drab. Respect the dedication.
De Jong who had already signed with Barca?
On the other hand, there are many better sides in europe compared to SACan't believe someone actually put Algeria, Albania, Slovenia, Bosnia and Bolivia on the same level as the likes of Andorra, Faroes etc.
Last WC had the 4 first teams from Europe, obviously Europe has better teams than SA at the moment and only Brazil, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are at same level.
This topsy turvy thread where now Ronaldo fans are saying Messi is playing better while the Messi fans are saying he isn't - we're through the looking glass here people
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