Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Cal?]

Lots of players scored more goals than R9. What does than prove? I am talking about his individual ability at his peak and he was streets ahead of CR7! Too many lable R9 as just a centre forward, which simply was not the case at all. He could and did destroy teams on his own, picking the ball up anywhere from just inside his own half or from the wings surrounded by players and leave them for dead. Klose took the record from Ronaldo. I'm a massive Messi fan, but on he biggest stage of all, he sadly under performed, while a half fit, clearly not at his best Ronaldo, still did the business.

When did I mention Cristiano scoring more goals? The point is he delivered much more consistently week in week out for more than a decade.

Granted Luiz Ronaldo’s YouTube videos look great, but he simply lacked the consistency to be even compared to Cristiano over a season

Klose delivered at the WC too, is that going to be your basis of judging players?

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Lots of players scored more goals than R9. What does than prove? I am talking about his individual ability at his peak and he was streets ahead of CR7! Too many lable R9 as just a centre forward, which simply was not the case at all. He could and did destroy teams on his own, picking the ball up anywhere from just inside his own half or from the wings surrounded by players and leave them for dead. Klose took the record from Ronaldo. I'm a massive Messi fan, but on he biggest stage of all, he sadly under performed, while a half fit, clearly not at his best Ronaldo, still did the business.

Forget about it man, there was not a single player in the 90’s who was as good as Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, not one of them had anywhere near as impressive personal careers or the machine-like consistency as those too.

There were some phenomenal players back then, and Ronaldo 9 is quite possibly the best player of that decade, but even he wasn’t as good as Messi or Ronaldo 7.

 

[Tostao_80]

Still waiting for YOUR top three. The 'obvious' ones.

Pele, Diego and Leo.

 

[SharpshooterTom]

Jose Mourinho: "For me the top three players in history are Messi, Pele and Maradona."

Adriano Galliani (ex AC Milan CEO): “Messi is the best player ever. And this is said by someone who has seen Maradona and Pele play."

Ronald Koeman: “Messi? He’s the best player of all time. The talk is of Pele, Cruyff, Messi, Maradona…no one has been as decisive as Messi. For the goals he’s scored, how he scored them. He’s the greatest player of all time.”

"Who is the Best Player in the World?” Arsene Wenger: “Lionel Messi” “Who is the Best Player Ever?” Arsene Wenger: “Lionel Messi."

Jürgen Klopp: "Messi is the best. There must be life out there somewhere, on some other planet. Because he is too good and we are just too bad for him."

Marco van Basten: ”There is no doubt about it, Messi's clearly the best player in the world.”

Julen Lopetegui: “For me Leo Messi is the best in history.”

Unai Emery at ‘The Best’ ceremony: “We all know that Messi is the best and is every year but also it is good that there are other players to be able to divide the cake.”

Vicente del Bosque: “Messi is the best in history”.

Fabio Capello: “In my entire life I’ve never seen a player of such quality.”

Raul: “I was lucky enough to play with Zidane, Ronaldo, Figo, Cristiano... but Messi is different; he makes everything look so easy, so effortless – even the impossible.”

Sergio Ramos: “I respect Maradona, I think he’s great and a superstar but all of Argentina know that he’s light years behind the best Argentine, which for me, is Lionel Messi”

Paul Scholes: “I think about the great players with whom I have shared a pitch: Eric Cantona, Zinedine Zidane, Pirlo, Xavi, Cristiano Ronaldo – and the greatest of them all is Messi."

“Ronaldo vs Messi: who’s better?” Rooney: “Messi” “Oooh that was quick. And you played with Ronaldo too” Rooney: “Yeah I think, I’ve said this before but they’re both probably the best two players ever to play the game and I just think Messi is in my eyes the greatest ever”

David Beckham: "While Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are both better than the rest, Ronaldo does not reach the level of Messi."

Roy Keane: "I was a big fan of Maradona growing up and of the current crop Ronaldo is good but Messi is the best I’ve ever seen. I don’t dish out praise lightly but Messi deserves it. I look for weaknesses in his game and I can’t find them."

Ruud van Nistelrooy: “Messi, he’s one of a kind. I think he’s arguably the best player in history we’ve ever had”.

Its worth noting that not everyone here said Messi is the GOAT, rather some suggesting he's currently the best in the world (which he is) or the best player they've ever played against.

I remember that Mourinho quote but I don't think he said those players specifically in order.

Nobody under 35 is ever going to say Pele or Maradona are the GOAT so the whole point is moot.

 

[Welby5]

When did I mention Cristiano scoring more goals? The point is he delivered much more consistently week in week out for more than a decade.

Granted Luiz Ronaldo’s YouTube videos look great, but he simply lacked the consistency to be even compared to Cristiano over a season

Klose delivered at the WC too, is that going to be your basis of judging players?

R9's lack of "consistency" was down to physical problems, something which Bobby Robson knew would hamper and cut short his career when R9 was just 17. Such extreme twisting and turning of the knees and feet at such pace was bound to cause major physical problems. Klose delivering at the World Cup was more of a case of a player rising to the occasion and another level on the biggest stage of all, which is the opposite of CR7 and Messi. Up until Messi and CR7, the real greats had to have had great World Cups and be player of the tournament or close to it. Pele was rated best of alltime, not because of the 1000 goals he scored at club level, it was his play at the World Cups. Cruyff, showed his genius at club level but was on a different level to everyone else in the 74 WC. Marradonna the same. All sports stars true alltime greats are judged by what they do at "club/regular level but also at the biggest competitions in thier respective sports. We get to the Messi &CR7 era and all of a sudden being brilliant at World Cups doesn't matter any more. Fanboys looking for excuses for their hero's falling short time and again.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Argentina 2019 is literally a One Man Army. 11 vs 1.

At least the GK, Armani, looks decent.

Aguero + GK

 

[Cal?]

R9's lack of "consistency" was down to physical problems, something which Bobby Robson knew would hamper and cut short his career when R9 was just 17. Such extreme twisting and turning of the knees and feet at such pace was bound to cause major physical problems. Klose delivering at the World Cup was more of a case of a player rising to the occasion and another level on the biggest stage of all, which is the opposite of CR7 and Messi. Up until Messi and CR7, the real greats had to have had great World Cups and be player of the tournament or close to it. Pele was rated best of alltime, not because of the 1000 goals he scored at club level, it was his play at the World Cups. Cruyff, showed his genius at club level but was on a different level to everyone else in the 74 WC. Marradonna the same. All sports stars true alltime greats are judged by what they do at "club/regular level but also at the biggest competitions in thier respective sports. We get to the Messi &CR7 era and all of a sudden being brilliant at World Cups doesn't matter any more. Fanboys looking for excuses for their hero's falling short time and again.

That doesn’t change the fact he lacked consistency to be compared to Cristiano or Messi over a season.

Football, particularly the CL grew since the 90s to become the undisputed highest level of football. The likes of Maldini and Baresi are rated amongst the best ever defenders mainly due to their club careers and not the one WC final in 1994. Van Basten never did anything at any WC and is seen as one of the best strikers ever.

Even in earlier years, Di Stefano, Best & co are seen amongst the world’s best due to their club careers.

The limitations of the WC is there for all to see. If you’re born in Brazil or Germany, you’re far more likely to succeed than someone born in a smaller country like Portugal.

 

[Cal?]

Aguero + GK

If Aguero misses any chance and Argentina go out, he’d be blamed for everything wrong in the world.

Much like Higuain being blamed for WC14, despite the fact he got them thru against Belgium

 

[Saffron]

Much like Higuain being blamed for WC14, despite the fact he got them thru against Belgium

And yet Messi was the architect. Wins possession by pressing Kompany into making a failed pass, gets the ball against the run of the play, sees his teammates are in bad positions so takes a moment to send De Bruyne to row Z with a superb body feint before expertly avoiding Fellaini’s challenge.

By this point he has done a full 360 and held up the play for several crucial seconds for his teammates to get in position. Looks up, sees Di Maria in a good position (finally) and delivers the ball on a red carpet. Di Maria makes a meal of it but gets lucky with the deflection.

So even when you try to bring up a specific example where Higuain supposedly saved Argentina, Messi was there too.

Higuain had 1 touch. Messi had 10.

Spoiler

[/quote]

 

[Casanova85]

And yet Messi was the architect. Gets the ball against the run of the play, sees his teammates are in bad positions so takes a moment to send De Bruyne to row Z with a superb body feint before expertly avoiding Fellaini’s challenge.

By this point he has done a full 360 and held up the play for several crucial seconds for his teammates to get in position. Looks up, sees Di Maria in a good position (finally) and delivers the ball on a red carpet. Di Maria makes a meal of it but gets lucky with the deflection.

So even when you try to bring up a specific example where Higuain supposedly saved Argentina, Messi was there too.

Higuain had 1 touch. Messi had 10.

Spoiler

[/QUOTE]

Thanks; detractors keep forgetting, on purpose, that Messi is a lot more than a goal-scoring machine.

 

[RedRonaldo]

R9's lack of "consistency" was down to physical problems, something which Bobby Robson knew would hamper and cut short his career when R9 was just 17. Such extreme twisting and turning of the knees and feet at such pace was bound to cause major physical problems. Klose delivering at the World Cup was more of a case of a player rising to the occasion and another level on the biggest stage of all, which is the opposite of CR7 and Messi. Up until Messi and CR7, the real greats had to have had great World Cups and be player of the tournament or close to it. Pele was rated best of alltime, not because of the 1000 goals he scored at club level, it was his play at the World Cups. Cruyff, showed his genius at club level but was on a different level to everyone else in the 74 WC. Marradonna the same. All sports stars true alltime greats are judged by what they do at "club/regular level but also at the biggest competitions in thier respective sports. We get to the Messi &CR7 era and all of a sudden being brilliant at World Cups doesn't matter any more. Fanboys looking for excuses for their hero's falling short time and again.

Di Stefano was regarded as one of GOAT for long time, he never played in WC though.

 

[Daysleeper]

If Aguero misses any chance and Argentina go out, he’d be blamed for everything wrong in the world.

Much like Higuain being blamed for WC14, despite the fact he got them thru against Belgium

Higuain had a mis hit against Belgium. He’s missed more sitters than any other Argie player. There’s YouTube videos of all of his major misses and they go on forever.

 

[Cal?]

And yet Messi was the architect. Wins possession by pressing Kompany into making a failed pass, gets the ball against the run of the play, sees his teammates are in bad positions so takes a moment to send De Bruyne to row Z with a superb body feint before expertly avoiding Fellaini’s challenge.

By this point he has done a full 360 and held up the play for several crucial seconds for his teammates to get in position. Looks up, sees Di Maria in a good position (finally) and delivers the ball on a red carpet. Di Maria makes a meal of it but gets lucky with the deflection.

So even when you try to bring up a specific example where Higuain supposedly saved Argentina, Messi was there too.

Higuain had 1 touch. Messi had 10.

Spoiler

[/QUOTE]
If you haven’t forgotten how football works, that 1 touch sent them thru

 

[Gehrman]

Oh my god this thread is pedantic. In the 2009 CL final the midget Messi scored a freaking header vs Edwin Van der Saar and one of the greatest defences of all time while Ronaldo contributed zero. Defining a players greatness by a few success or failures in the CL or WC misses the big picture.

 

[Saffron]

Its worth noting that not everyone here said Messi is the GOAT, rather some suggesting he's currently the best in the world (which he is) or the best player they've ever played against.

Have some more then. Here’s just a handful of the 150 quotes I left out:

Alan Shearer:
“We should consider ourselves very fortunate to live in an era where we can watch the greatest player ever! #Messi”

Frank Lampard:
“Maradona was my favourite player always, but I think, for me, Lionel Messi is the best not just of this era but of every era.”

John Terry:
”Lionel Messi is quite clearly the best player ever. It’s a pleasure to pit myself against him and when I finish my career it’s something I can look back on and know I’ve tested myself against the very best."

 

[Zehner]

If you haven’t forgotten how football works, that 1 touch sent them thru

That's like saying the guy who paints the car deserves praise for building the whole vehicle

 

[Saffron]

Oh my god this thread is pedantic. In the 2009 CL final the midget Messi scored a freaking header vs Edwin Van der Saar and one of the greatest defences of all time while Ronaldo contributed zero. Defining a players greatness by a few success or failures in the CL or WC misses the big picture.

Radamel Falcao said it best:

“If Messi scores once, he will be asked to score two. If he converts a freekick, they will say that the wall wasn’t alligned correctly. If Argentina loses, it will be his fault. But that’s the price you have to pay for being the best in the world.”

 

[Tostao_80]

Have some more then. Here’s just a handful of the 150 quotes I left out:

Alan Shearer:
“We should consider ourselves very fortunate to live in an era where we can watch the greatest player ever! #Messi”

Frank Lampard:
“Maradona was my favourite player always, but I think, for me, Lionel Messi is the best not just of this era but of every era.”

John Terry:
”Lionel Messi is quite clearly the best player ever. It’s a pleasure to pit myself against him and when I finish my career it’s something I can look back on and know I’ve tested myself against the very best."

Why aren't there lots of quotes like this about Cristiano, at ANY time during his career? Why hasn't he and why isn't he regarded in the same way (the best ever) by many ex football professionals and coaches?
Seems very telling.

 

[Saffron]

Why aren't there lots of quotes like this about Cristiano, at ANY time during his career? Why hasn't he and why isn't he regarded in the same way (the best ever) by many ex football professionals and coaches?
Seems very telling.

And what’s interesting is that the younger generation seems equally in awe of him.


”Best player in the world?” Trent Alexander-Arnold: “Messi”

“Who is better, Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo?” Vinicius Junior: “Messi, Messi.”

Harry Winks: “To play against him [Messi] was an honour. The result takes away a lot of the enjoyment from the game, but in years to come, when I look back and say I played against, in my opinion, the greatest player to ever play football, it will be a proud moment”

Marcus Rashford: “I have to say Messi - some of the stuff that he does is unbelievable. I’m a big fan of Ronaldo as well but I think Messi is the greatest ever.”

Raheem Sterling: “And then it’s the GOAT himself, the greatest player to ever touch a football field, Lionel Messi. Gets it in there.”

Matthijs de Ligt and Frenkie de Jong: “Messi or Ronaldo? Messi. I think we both agree on that. Not much explanation needed, Messi is much better than Ronaldo.”

 

[Welby5]

That doesn’t change the fact he lacked consistency to be compared to Cristiano or Messi over a season.

Football, particularly the CL grew since the 90s to become the undisputed highest level of football. The likes of Maldini and Baresi are rated amongst the best ever defenders mainly due to their club careers and not the one WC final in 1994. Van Basten never did anything at any WC and is seen as one of the best strikers ever.

Even in earlier years, Di Stefano, Best & co are seen amongst the world’s best due to their club careers.

The limitations of the WC is there for all to see. If you’re born in Brazil or Germany, you’re far more likely to succeed than someone born in a smaller country like Portugal.

Messi and CR7 have been very lucky to be blessed with bodies that never broke down, so that enabled them to be so consitent. It was a fact that R9 was having fitness problems from a teen right up to his decline. How could he possibly maintain the high level of consistency when consistently having fitness problems? Yes, other players achieved greatness through their club form, and i've already said that Messi and CR7 are great players. My point is, thereare those who were brilliant at club level but performed just as well at World Cups. Messi and CR7 simply haven't done that! As for the CL being at the same level as the WC. A struggling, declining Chelsea finished 6th in the league, but won the CL. Liverpool haven't been champs of England for 30 years, yet won 2 CL's in that time. Think that destroys your argument!

 

[Tostao_80]

Messi and CR7 have been very lucky to be blessed with bodies that never broke down, so that enabled them to be so consitent. It was a fact that R9 was having fitness problems from a teen right up to his decline. How could he possibly maintain the high level of consistency when consistently having fitness problems? Yes, other players achieved greatness through their club form, and i've already said that Messi and CR7 are great players. My point is, thereare those who were brilliant at club level but performed just as well at World Cups. Messi and CR7 simply haven't done that! As for the CL being at the same level as the WC. A struggling, declining Chelsea finished 6th in the league, but won the CL. Liverpool haven't been champs of England for 30 years, yet won 2 CL's in that time. Think that destroys your argument!

Not sure that's strictly true. The CL is held a lot more frequently than the WC so there are bound to be anomalies at some point. Have a look at the best CL teams over the last 10 years, Real, Bayern and Barca. Name 3 better international teams in the same period. Even deeper, you have the likes of Atletico, Juve and Liverpool. A great team like City can't even make a dent in the CL. How many international teams can you name better than them? The best club sides are better than the best international teams. Let's look at Englands route to the WC semis for example. What top teams did they beat to even get there? Who did Ajax beat to get to their CL semi? The standard is undoubtedly higher in the CL. Now if you're asking whether the CL holds higher value, then most definitely not. One can become a legend based off one WC campaign, not so much with the European Cup/ CL (remember Toto Schilachi).

Leo and Cristiano are such outliers because their sustained brilliance at the highest level of football at any level (CL) is unprecedented. You can argue Di Stefano in the 50s (ironically it's his performances in the European Cup that propel his status) but depth at the very top then wasn't what it is today. WC or not, Leo and Cristiano are and deserve to be rated amongst the other GOATs.

 

[Welby5]

Di Stefano was regarded as one of GOAT for long time, he never played in WC though.

Yes, and George Best too. Obviously in those circumstances it would be very unfair and stupid to not rate them highly when they never had the chance to prove themselves in World Cups. Messi and CR7 have had numerous chances. Again, i have not said they are not greats because they undoubtaable are! All i'm saying is they're not up there with the likes of Pele, Cruyff, Maradonna, Beckenbaur, who played as well at World Cup finals level as they did at club level.

 

[Welby5]

Not sure that's strictly true. The CL is held a lot more frequently than the WC so there are bound to be anomalies at some point. Have a look at the best CL teams over the last 10 years, Real, Bayern and Barca. Name 3 better international teams in the same period. Even deeper, you have the likes of Atletico, Juve and Liverpool. A great team like City can't even make a dent in the CL. How many international teams can you name better than them? The best club sides are better than the best international teams. Let's look at Englands route to the WC semis for example. What top teams did they beat to even get there? Who did Ajax beat to get to their CL semi? The standard is undoubtedly higher in the CL. Now if you're asking whether the CL holds higher value, then most definitely not. One can become a legend based off one WC campaign, not so much with the European Cup/ CL (remember Toto Schilachi).

Leo and Cristiano are such outliers because their sustained brilliance at the highest level of football at any level (CL) is unprecedented. You can argue Di Stefano in the 50s (ironically it's his performances in the European Cup that propel his status) but depth at the very top then wasn't what it is today. WC or not, Leo and Cristiano are and deserve to be rated amongst the other GOATs.

The CL is now jus way more bloated than the old European Cup, but that in no way means it's better! Indeed, how can it even be as good when teams can go deep in to the CL without even facing a championship winning team??? How can that possibly be as hard as having to beat league champions in every single round? That's why i'd personally rate Liverpool's European Cups significantly higher than their two CL titles. I mean, a club that hasn't won the title for 30 years beating one who hasn't won it for nearly 60 years in the "Champions League" final. Yeah, right!

 

[SharpshooterTom]

Have some more then. Here’s just a handful of the 150 quotes I left out:

Alan Shearer:
“We should consider ourselves very fortunate to live in an era where we can watch the greatest player ever! #Messi”

Frank Lampard:
“Maradona was my favourite player always, but I think, for me, Lionel Messi is the best not just of this era but of every era.”

John Terry:
”Lionel Messi is quite clearly the best player ever. It’s a pleasure to pit myself against him and when I finish my career it’s something I can look back on and know I’ve tested myself against the very best."

Yes and there are still plenty who consider Pele or Maradona the best ever.

FourFourTwo ran up a 100 footballers ever list compiled back in 2017, had Maradona #1, Messi #2 and Pele #3.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yes, and George Best too. Obviously in those circumstances it would be very unfair and stupid to not rate them highly when they never had the chance to prove themselves in World Cups. Messi and CR7 have had numerous chances. Again, i have not said they are not greats because they undoubtaable are! All i'm saying is they're not up there with the likes of Pele, Cruyff, Maradonna, Beckenbaur, who played as well at World Cup finals level as they did at club level.

I just felt, most of the past greats might not even be half as good as Ronaldo and Messi at club career, so it’s still up for debate. And although Ronaldo and Messi didn’t shine in WC, they are still the all time leading goal scorer for their national team (Ronaldo is all time international top scorer in both Europe and South America), so it also add some more weight.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes and there are still plenty who consider Pele or Maradona the best ever.

FourFourTwo ran up a 100 footballers ever list compiled back in 2017, had Maradona #1, Messi #2 and Pele #3.

I don't think the reason that guy was posting those quotes was as proof of Messi being the best ever and above Pele/Maradona, but rather a comparison to the sorts of comments footballers/managers/pundits make between Messi and Ronaldo. Many are quick to put Messi up there with Maradona/Pele or even as the greatest ever, far far fewer say similar things about Ronaldo.

For me, I think it's pointless to declare someone the best ever - most of the people who argue such things haven't watched more than a couple of hours of past greats so it's daft.

 

[SCP]

The CL is now jus way more bloated than the old European Cup, but that in no way means it's better! Indeed, how can it even be as good when teams can go deep in to the CL without even facing a championship winning team??? How can that possibly be as hard as having to beat league champions in every single round? That's why i'd personally rate Liverpool's European Cups significantly higher than their two CL titles. I mean, a club that hasn't won the title for 30 years beating one who hasn't won it for nearly 60 years in the "Champions League" final. Yeah, right!

There isn’t any top player or top manager who thinks the level of football played at Champions League isn’t the best in the world.

WC, Euros or Copa America aren’t any sort of reference at tactical innovations. This tournaments are mainly driven by the pleasure it gives to the players because they are representing their countries, or to the fans.

It’s absurd to think because Miroslav Klose scored more goals in the WC’s than Ronaldo or Messi, his career is anything similar to theirs.

There is nothing above the Champions League at football level, understandable that some fans don’t like the elitist nature of the competition, but it’s hard to understand the arguments to measure the greatness of a player based on short term tournaments disputed in a space of 4 years.

 

[Saffron]

I just felt, most of the past greats might not even be half as good as Ronaldo and Messi at club career, so it’s still up for debate. And although Ronaldo and Messi didn’t shine in WC, they are still the all time leading goal scorer for their national team (Ronaldo is all time international top scorer in both Europe and South America), so it also add some more weight.

Ronaldo has been given the benefit of facing a lot of absolute trash European teams in Euro and WC qualifiers. His victims include

Luxembourg (multiple times)
Cyprus
Andorra (multiple times)
Farore Islands (multiple times)
Kazakhstan (multiple times)
North Korea (!)
New Zealand
Panama (one of the few dross teams Messi has also faced)

Teams he has faced and not scored against:

Liechtenstein (multiple times)
Gibraltar
Malta
Cape Verde
Mozambique (love those colonial re-enactments)



Look at these lists and tell me who has had the easiest opponents on average. It’s just silly to argue it’s Messi. Even if I was a Ronaldo fan I would concede this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Cristiano_Ronaldo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Lionel_Messi

Messi has had a few easy ones like Hong Kong once, but the teams are generally at least decent with many great teams sprinkled in there.

Venezuela isn’t Andorra. Peru isn’t the Faroe Islands.

There’s a reason Mr. ”16 league goals on average” Lukaku is banging in goals for fun for Belgium.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yes and there are still plenty who consider Pele or Maradona the best ever.

FourFourTwo ran up a 100 footballers ever list compiled back in 2017, had Maradona #1, Messi #2 and Pele #3.

They rate Ronaldo #5 though, surely not #1, but only 2 place behind Pele

Ronaldo has been given the benefit of facing a lot of absolute trash European teams in Euro and WC qualifiers. His victims include

Luxembourg (multiple times)
Cyprus
Andorra (multiple times)
Farore Islands (multiple times)
Kazakhstan (multiple times)
North Korea (!)
New Zealand
Panama (one of the few dross teams Messi has also faced)

Teams he has faced and not scored against:

Liechtenstein (multiple times)
Canada
Cape Verde
Malta
Mozambique (love those colonial re-enactments)
Gibraltar



Look at these lists and tell me who has had the easiest opponents on average. It’s just silly to argue it’s Messi. Even if I was a Ronaldo fan I would concede this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Cristiano_Ronaldo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Lionel_Messi

Messi has had a few easy ones like Hong Kong once, but the teams are generally at least decent with many great teams sprinkled in there.

Venezuela isn’t Andorra. Peru isn’t the Faroe Islands.

There’s a reason Mr. ”16 league goals on average” Lukaku is banging in goals for fun for Belgium.

Is this argument against European strikers vs South American strikers for their national team, or just Ronaldo vs Messi?

Its just doesn't looks fair to single out Ronaldo at all, as the same thing happens to almost every other players too. You named all the goals he scored against minor team, but conveniently ignore all the goals he scored against Spain, Sweden, Netherland, Argentina, Croatia, Belgium, Denmark, Czech, Russia, Switzerland etc. At the same time, he has to play against all sort of teams in Europe in WC/Euro qualifiers, almost every other European players throughout the history has to go through the similar thing.

Meanwhile back to South American, Messi has also scored multiple goals against minors like Algeria, Albania, Guatemala, Slovenia, Bosnia, Hong Kong, Bolivia, Haiti, Nicaragua too. To be fair, all great strikers score goals against minor teams too. Messi scored 68 goals in 133 international appearances, he is all time top scorer in Argentina, but as South American, he has less international goals than Pele (77 goals), but more than L.Ronaldo, Romario etc still amazing.

At the end of the day, Ronaldo has played in 4 WC and 4 Euro, and most of qualifiers matches of WC and Euro in Europe, and he is all time international top scorer in Europe at the very least (with 88 goals), after featuring in all 8 major and biggest international competitions and qualifiers, what more challenge can he take? Fight against the Mars? So at the very least, he is still best international striker ever from Europe, more than Puskas (84 goals), Muller (68 goals), and far more than other great strikers like Cruyff, Van Basten, still an amazing feat at the very least.

So are you arguing that Europeans strikers < South American strikers in terms of significance in their number of goals scored?

 

[Saffron]

So are you saying Europeans strikers < South American strikers in terms of significance in their number of goals scored?

Yeah, that’s all I’m saying really. I realize that Ronaldo is a great goalscorer and would have good stats in SA as well. But not that good.

Just look at Lukaku spraying in goals against Gibraltar on the regular. This is a player who scored 0 league goals against the top 10 Premier League clubs this season. Zero.

I would say a European NT goal is worth about 0,8 South American NT goals, on average when looking at a player’s total stats.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yeah, that’s all I’m saying really. I realize that Ronaldo is a great goalscorer and would have good stats in SA as well. But not that good.

Just look at Lukaku spraying in goals against Gibraltar on the regular. This is a player who scored 0 league goals against the top 10 Premier League clubs this season. Zero.

I would say a European NT goal is worth about 0,8 South American NT goals, on average when looking at a player’s total stats.

Ok, fair enough. Even if you only count 0.8 goals discount for European, Ronaldo still scored 70.... still a great striker in South America. So my original point that Ronaldo and Messi is still leading all time top scorer for their country, and one of the all time top scorer in the world international football scene still holds.

 

[Bole Top]

it ultimately comes down to how much you value international performances from older legends over unmatched consistency in club football from Messi and Ronaldo. it's true that neither of them made their national teams actually overcome opponents they were losing in the last 10 years and that's how it's going to remain most likely. neither Messi neither Ronaldo couldn't deal with Germany and Spain, they lost all significant matches against them and that will obviously always go against them when you compare them to Pele or Maradona.

but when it comes to older (50+) fans, I think some of them seem to have clearly biased and unrealistic standards towards players these days, while looking at past accomplishments from older players almost as something mythical. at the same time, current generations are more spoiled since they were heavily exposed to every day of their careers, both good and bad periods. not to mention that football in general is simply different today and it has been reduced to basically 5 or 6 clubs. we all know how much their squads are worth these days, we all know how skint the rest of the competition is in comparision and we all know there's isn't anything special about them winning their national leagues. it's simply harder to create those "myths" these days and both Ronaldo and Messi are going to suffer a bit in that regard when you compare them to Maradona and Pele. they can't drag average clubs to glory since average clubs can't afford them, they can't score with their hands and get away with it since we have VAR etc.

but I bet even the most stubborn "everything was better in my time" type of fan finds it hard to resist the wow effect that Messi brings to game every week. he simply has that natural ability that allows him to 'intrude' the pedestal reserved mostly for the legends those fans grew up watching.

that being said, for me, Messi really had to win at least one Copa during his peak years. even though I'm his hopeless fanboy and he's the best I've ever seen and as I've said already, I consider him to be the best ever, I think that is one of those rare things I feel he trully "failed" at and actually the only spot which I consider to be a weak in his career. obviously, he can't play European championships and I've never expected Argentina to win world cup, but winning at least one Copa was reasonable task and I'm not even going to debate about that. what I find annoying though, at least in debates with some people who were obviously passionate Maradona fans, is the logic that this one missing piece in his career means everything, yet when I asked them how come Maradona was failure in Spain or in Champions league, there were always perfect explanations for that and for those people it seems his failures don't affect his legacy at all. yet, when we talk about Messi it's the opposite. great fecking logic.

sorry, but 15 years of both Messi & Ronaldo > that one world cup from Maradona. not even close.

 

[MrEleson]

What I don't understand is how so many more of the young prodigies of the game idolise Ronaldo over Messi. First Mbappe then Sancho. Now De Ligt has come out and said how he wanted to be like Ronaldo going up, playing football in the playground. He even says that his first football shirt was Ronaldo's #7 back in 07/08.

 

[Tostao_80]

The CL is now jus way more bloated than the old European Cup, but that in no way means it's better! Indeed, how can it even be as good when teams can go deep in to the CL without even facing a championship winning team??? How can that possibly be as hard as having to beat league champions in every single round? That's why i'd personally rate Liverpool's European Cups significantly higher than their two CL titles. I mean, a club that hasn't won the title for 30 years beating one who hasn't won it for nearly 60 years in the "Champions League" final. Yeah, right!

You couldn't be further from the truth. Do you know Liverpools route to their 1977 win? Their opponents were Austria Vienna, Torino, Club Brugge and B Monchengladbach in the final. In 78, yes they had to play Atletico and Juve en route to the final but guess who their final opponents were, the mighty Club Bruge. In 81, they had nobodies until Bayern and Real in the final. In 84, they had some great opponents, Odense BK, Bilbao, Benfica, D Bucarest and Roma. In 4 title wins, how many hard opponents did they face? Lets be honest, how many European Cups would this City have if they face all those opponents over those 4 years?
The CL is undoutably harder these days. There are more tough/ hard teams to beat.
And your premise that a Champion of a league is automatically tougher than another team that isn't champion is wrong.
Liverpool are a great case in point. Are them not being champions easier than the Champions that Liverpool played in the 70s/ 80s like Austria Vienna and Club Brugge?

 

[Saffron]

Ok, fair enough. Even if you only count 0.8 goals discount for European, Ronaldo still scored 70.... still a great striker in South America. So my original point that Ronaldo and Messi is still leading all time top scorer for their country, and one of the all time top scorer in the world international football scene still holds.

I agree. Still, he has been very lucky with injuries. He has 158 caps already and will likely finish with 180-190?
He already has the 4th most caps of all time if you exclude total nobodies in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman etc.

The ones above him are Ramos, Casillas and Buffon.

it ultimately comes down to how much you value international performances from older legends over unmatched consistency in club football from Messi and Ronaldo. it's true that neither of them made their national teams actually overcome opponents they were losing in the last 10 years and that's how it's going to remain most likely. neither Messi neither Ronaldo couldn't deal with Germany and Spain, they lost all significant matches against them and that will obviously always go against them when you compare them to Pele or Maradona.

but when it comes to older (50+) fans, I think some of them seem to have clearly biased and unrealistic standards towards players these days, while looking at past accomplishments from older players almost as something mythical. at the same time, current generations are more spoiled since they were heavily exposed to every day of their careers, both good and bad periods. not to mention that football in general is simply different today and it has been reduced to basically 5 or 6 clubs. we all know how much their squads are worth these days, we all know how skint the rest of the competition is in comparision and we all know there's isn't anything special about them winning their national leagues. it's simply harder to create those "myths" these days and both Ronaldo and Messi are going to suffer a bit in that regard when you compare them to Maradona and Pele. they can't drag average clubs to glory since average clubs can't afford them, they can't score with their hands and get away with it since we have VAR etc.

but I bet even the most stubborn "everything was better in my time" type of fan finds it hard to resist the wow effect that Messi brings to game every week. he simply has that natural ability that allows him to 'intrude' the pedestal reserved mostly for the legends those fans grew up watching.

that being said, for me, Messi really had to win at least one Copa during his peak years. even though I'm his hopeless fanboy and he's the best I've ever seen and as I've said already, I consider him to be the best ever, I think that is one of those rare things I feel he trully "failed" at and actually the only spot which I consider to be a weak in his career. obviously, he can't play European championships and I've never expected Argentina to win world cup, but winning at least one Copa was reasonable task and I'm not even going to debate about that. what I find annoying though, at least in debates with some people who were obviously passionate Maradona fans, is the logic that this one missing piece in his career means everything, yet when I asked them how come Maradona was failure in Spain or in Champions league, there were always perfect explanations for that and for those people it seems his failures don't affect his legacy at all. yet, when we talk about Messi it's the opposite. great fecking logic.

sorry, but 15 years of both Messi & Ronaldo > that one world cup from Maradona. not even close.

On the other hand, Maradona never won the European cup. Think about that, Messi gets ridiculed by LVG for ”only” winning the CL 3/4 times. Maradona never did it.

And his trophy cabinet aside from that 1 WC is downright laughable by GOAT standards. He has a grand total of 2 league titles in Europe. And a few cups no one really cares about.

He won the UEFA but that wasn’t even the second most prestigious club competition at that time according to old timers I’ve spoken to. It was third after the Cup winners’ cup, which Maradona never won either.

Really shows how much the WC is worth in people’s minds. Somehow I doubt he would get anywhere near the same recognition he gets today if his biggest claim to fame was 2 league titles.

I don’t think he’s overrated or anything. But I think that WC win put his status where it belongs. Otherwise he would be severely underrated today and hordes of Cals would mock him for not winning a major international title.

 

[Welby5]

I just felt, most of the past greats might not even be half as good as Ronaldo and Messi at club career, so it’s still up for debate. And although Ronaldo and Messi didn’t shine in WC, they are still the all time leading goal scorer for their national team (Ronaldo is all time international top scorer in both Europe and South America), so it also add some more weight.

Again, i am strictly talking about WC finals, which are on a completely different level to every other international match or tournament. Rooney scored goals galore for England, but was utter tripe in World Cups. Gerrard even admitted it was the sheer pressure and weight of expectation which himself and the others of the "golden generation" simply couldn't handle. Knowing that back home millions/tens of millions are watching you, desperate for you to win. Imagine the pressure on Messi, with the truly fanatical Argentinians who worshiped Maradonna like a god. The World Cup is at a level of importancce way above everything else in football! A hero in a city or a hero for your country?

 

[Welby5]

You couldn't be further from the truth. Do you know Liverpools route to their 1977 win? Their opponents were Austria Vienna, Torino, Club Brugge and B Monchengladbach in the final. In 78, yes they had to play Atletico and Juve en route to the final but guess who their final opponents were, the mighty Club Bruge. In 81, they had nobodies until Bayern and Real in the final. In 84, they had some great opponents, Odense BK, Bilbao, Benfica, D Bucarest and Roma. In 4 title wins, how many hard opponents did they face? Lets be honest, how many European Cups would this City have if they face all those opponents over those 4 years?
The CL is undoutably harder these days. There are more tough/ hard teams to beat.
And your premise that a Champion of a league is automatically tougher than another team that isn't champion is wrong.
Liverpool are a great case in point. Are them not being champions easier than the Champions that Liverpool played in the 70s/ 80s like Austria Vienna and Club Brugge?

You snigger at who they beat in the final, but almost brush aside them beating Athletico and Juve along the way. I could respond by bringing up the names of lots of teams who qualify for the so called "Champions League" these days, but they are so tiny and forgetable, i can't even remember what they're called.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You couldn't be further from the truth. Do you know Liverpools route to their 1977 win? Their opponents were Austria Vienna, Torino, Club Brugge and B Monchengladbach in the final. In 78, yes they had to play Atletico and Juve en route to the final but guess who their final opponents were, the mighty Club Bruge. In 81, they had nobodies until Bayern and Real in the final. In 84, they had some great opponents, Odense BK, Bilbao, Benfica, D Bucarest and Roma. In 4 title wins, how many hard opponents did they face? Lets be honest, how many European Cups would this City have if they face all those opponents over those 4 years?
The CL is undoutably harder these days. There are more tough/ hard teams to beat.
And your premise that a Champion of a league is automatically tougher than another team that isn't champion is wrong.
Liverpool are a great case in point. Are them not being champions easier than the Champions that Liverpool played in the 70s/ 80s like Austria Vienna and Club Brugge?

The bold was Gladbach's route to the final.

And that Gladbach team that Liverpool beat was stacked and very much one of the best in Europe in those years (better than the Spurs side they beat this year): Vogts, Bonhof, Stielike, Simonsen (Ballon winner), Heynkes. Admittedly the EC wasn't as strong then as the 80s when the SA greats started playing in Europe more often.

 

[Daysleeper]

What I don't understand is how so many more of the young prodigies of the game idolise Ronaldo over Messi. First Mbappe then Sancho. Now De Ligt has come out and said how he wanted to be like Ronaldo going up, playing football in the playground. He even says that his first football shirt was Ronaldo's #7 back in 07/08.

And yet de Ligt said very recently he’d take messi over Ronaldo and it’s not even close

Q&A: ‘Messi or Ronaldo?’


- De Ligt: Yea, then I’m going for Messi.

- De Jong: Obviously Messi.

- De Ligt: I think we both agree on this. It doesn’t need more explanation.

- De Jong: Messi is much better than Ronaldo

 

[RedRonaldo]

Again, i am strictly talking about WC finals, which are on a completely different level to every other international match or tournament. Rooney scored goals galore for England, but was utter tripe in World Cups. Gerrard even admitted it was the sheer pressure and weight of expectation which himself and the others of the "golden generation" simply couldn't handle. Knowing that back home millions/tens of millions are watching you, desperate for you to win. Imagine the pressure on Messi, with the truly fanatical Argentinians who worshiped Maradonna like a god. The World Cup is at a level of importancce way above everything else in football! A hero in a city or a hero for your country?

Surely World Cup is probably the most important competition to be won, but it’s not everything. Pogba won the WC as key player for France, but he doesn’t gain much respect from the fans, Klose is the all time top scorer and won one for Germany too, but he wasn’t being discussed much and wasn’t consider anywhere near the best at any point of his career. Cruyff, Di Stéfano, Puskás, Best, Platini, Eusébio have never won any WC, with some of them rarely feature in any of WC matches, yet they are all widely regarded as one of GOAT for long time. I just felt, for most players, they could only feature in less than 10-20 WC games throughout their career, but at club football they usually feature over 500-900 games, surely being GOAT in over 500-900 games are more significance (or at least equal) than being GOAT on 10-20 WC games. (But the player is GOAT in both, then he will be definitely regarded as GOAT anyway)

Another thing is media coverage of football matches has changed drastically over time. In the old days world population could only watch WC, and couldn’t get access to most of the domestics league games or cup competitions. Nowadays any top leagues and CL are watched but hundreds of millions, so people tend to value those matches/competition more. In today’s world, the most prestigious and highest quality competition is CL, and with its global media coverage is also another significance factor. Being great on it will definitely be decisive factor on how the world would view on the players. Examples are Ballon D’or usually will be given to best performer in CL.