Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[VanKenny]

Imagine the richest club in the world, selling the greatest player of all time to a direct CL rival for 100M, in a day and age when a player like Neymar goes for 220M.

Wait, that never happened, because RM just sold CR7.

That should tell you everything TBH, IMO it is simply common sense. When the supposed GOAT supposedly single handedly gives you 3 CL trophies in a row you dont sell him, at least not while he is still putting up excelent numbers. IMO thats clear indication that even Real Madrid knew, deep inside, that he wasnt as good as people think he is in here, AKA GOAT level.

I guarantee you right now that PSG could come knocking on Barca's door with 500M euros in hand trying to sign Messi, and Barca would still laugh at that offer.

Anyway, to the guy laughing at the whoscored ratings, i mean have you read the stuff that gets posted in this thread?

Just last week there were like 10 pages dedicated to what players from the past have said about Messi and CR7. The week after that people ITT went 20 pages arguing about who had the best teams on which years, deeply analyzing every year's squad, the coaches, the national team competitions, the Onze D' Or (still dont know what that is, havent cared enough to research it).

Yet someone posts individual player ratings tracked by a neutral source, who clearly show how Messi>false GOAT, and yeah its a laughable argument. I invite you to see any game, and then check the ratings that whoscored posts for it, and 99% of the time it will be an accurate representation of how the players performed.

And i didnt even post the ratings for La Liga, which Messi and a few other players have performed way better than CR7, but thatd be a waste of time anyway since the greatness of a player is rated 100% only on the quarter finals of the Champions League from 2014-2018.

 

[Cal?]

Imagine the richest club in the world, selling the greatest player of all time to a direct CL rival for 100M, in a day and age when a player like Neymar goes for 220M.

Obviously age has NOTHING to do with transfer fees, 33yo regularly go for world record fees.

 

[MJJ]

Imagine the richest club in the world, selling the greatest player of all time to a direct CL rival for 100M, in a day and age when a player like Neymar goes for 220M.

Wait, that never happened, because RM just sold CR7.

That should tell you everything TBH, IMO it is simply common sense. When the supposed GOAT supposedly single handedly gives you 3 CL trophies in a row you dont sell him, at least not while he is still putting up excelent numbers. IMO thats clear indication that even Real Madrid knew, deep inside, that he wasnt as good as people think he is in here, AKA GOAT level.

I guarantee you right now that PSG could come knocking on Barca's door with 500M euros in hand trying to sign Messi, and Barca would still laugh at that offer.

Anyway, to the guy laughing at the whoscored ratings, i mean have you read the stuff that gets posted in this thread?

Just last week there were like 10 pages dedicated to what players from the past have said about Messi and CR7. The week after that people ITT went 20 pages arguing about who had the best teams on which years, deeply analyzing every year's squad, the coaches, the national team competitions, the Onze D' Or (still dont know what that is, havent cared enough to research it).

Yet someone posts individual player ratings tracked by a neutral source, who clearly show how Messi>false GOAT, and yeah its a laughable argument. I invite you to see any game, and then check the ratings that whoscored posts for it, and 99% of the time it will be an accurate representation of how the players performed.

And i didnt even post the ratings for La Liga, which Messi and a few other players have performed way better than CR7, but thatd be a waste of time anyway since the greatness of a player is rated 100% only on the quarter finals of the Champions League from 2014-2018.

Maradona.

 

[VanKenny]

Obviously age has NOTHING to do with transfer fees, 33yo regularly go for world record fees.

So what? Were Real Madrid in serious need of that money? They sold the (according to you) best player in the world and greatest of all time for a 100 million. At 33 years old or 23 years old, if you have the GOAT still playing at top level you dont sell him to a direct CL competitor for less money than the Coutinhos of the world are being sold for.

Imagine Barcelona selling Messi to... i dont know, Manchester City for 100M? Would that ever happen? Hell, would that happen for 1 billion? Im not too sure.

 

[roonster09]

This thread should end up in classics. People are signing up just to post in this thread.

 

[adexkola]

And i didnt even post the ratings for La Liga, which Messi and a few other players have performed way better than CR7, but thatd be a waste of time anyway since the greatness of a player is rated 100% only on the quarter finals of the Champions League from 2014-2018.

This is funny because it's true

 

[MrEleson]

And i didnt even post the ratings for La Liga, which Messi and a few other players have performed way better than CR7, but thatd be a waste of time anyway since the greatness of a player is rated 100% only on the quarter finals of the Champions League from 2014-2018.

Who are these few other players that have performed better than CR for in La Liga? I'm curious to know.

So what? Were Real Madrid in serious need of that money? They sold the (according to you) best player in the world and greatest of all time for a 100 million. At 33 years old or 23 years old, if you have the GOAT still playing at top level you dont sell him to a direct CL competitor for less money than the Coutinhos of the world are being sold for.

Imagine Barcelona selling Messi to... i dont know, Manchester City for 100M? Would that ever happen? Hell, would that happen for 1 billion? Im not too sure.

Using your own logic, Coutinho is a better player than Ronaldo then since he went for more than him. As is Dembele..

 

[Pocho]

Ronaldo - goals = Nani
Messi - goals = Xavi

Xavi > Nani, so Messi > Ronaldo

Pure maths and we all know that maths don't lie.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

So many overly-biased bastards in this thread

I love them both, but there is only one GOAT.

Yeah. I can't see how people are arguing the legendary status of Lord Bendtner.

 

[Cal?]

So what? Were Real Madrid in serious need of that money? They sold the (according to you) best player in the world and greatest of all time for a 100 million. At 33 years old or 23 years old, if you have the GOAT still playing at top level you dont sell him to a direct CL competitor for less money than the Coutinhos of the world are being sold for.

Imagine Barcelona selling Messi to... i dont know, Manchester City for 100M? Would that ever happen? Hell, would that happen for 1 billion? Im not too sure.

http://sokkaa.com/ten-clubs-with-the-biggest-wage-bills-in-european-football-2018-19/2/

Barcelona spend more money on wages than any other club in the world, with their mammoth £424million outlay nearly double that of Premier League giants Manchester City.

Barcelona’s €487m wage bill rose an incredible 43 per cent (£128m) on the previous year, with bonuses accounting for £38m of that increase.

Lionel Messi, who reportedly earns £1.75m a week, is believed to make up a whopping 15 per cent of that outlay, with wage costs now amounting to nearly three-quarters (70 per cent) of their total turnover.

－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

There are a million reasons why Real would sell Ronaldo, he wanted to leave, he wanted more money, he fell out with Perez.

The fact is Real Madrid don't bend over the way Barcelona do to Messi.

 

[VanKenny]

Who are these few other players that have performed better than CR for in La Liga? I'm curious to know.



Using your own logic, Coutinho is a better player than Ronaldo then since he went for more than him. As is Dembele..

You can check for yourself who has been better rated than CR7 in la liga. But regardless, what matters the most is that not one season out of the 9 CR7 spent on la Liga, was he better rated than Messi. Not once.


And about your last point, i never said that, careful with that reading comprehension. Im simply saying that selling the GOAT while he is still playing at top level, for 100 million is something that would not just happen in todays era, simply because 1) you cant replace a GOAT for obvious reasons and 2) if you wanted the next best thing you would have to pay more than double that. It doesnt make sense for a club to do that unless of course, its not the GOAT we are talking about.

Even Real Madrid knew that CR7 wasnt THAT good to pass on a 100M offer, he wasnt worth THAT much to Real Madrid.

But again, compare him with Messi, is it Barcelona who bends over to whatever money he wants for whatever reason? Or is he actually worth THAT much? The answer is, he is worth that much and even more. Again, do you see possible Barcelona selling Messi to a direct CL rival for 100M? 200M? 500M? Answer is no, absolutely not.

Thats how a club treats a player that they consider GOAT.


Have you seen Barca this season? He makes world class players like Suarez and Dembele look like highschool kids. He is BY FAR the best player on the pitch every time, except for maybe 1 or 2 occassions the whole season. He is having a stupidly good year, insane ridiculous numbers and performances week in and week out, but the funny thing is that he has done this for the last 12 years. Yes, he may not have won the CL every year or every 2 years but then again, its a 11 vs 11 game, many factors come into play. If the game of football worked in a different way, a way that the game could be decided by just one player, and whichever team had the best player in the world would win everything no questions asked... then Messi wouldnt be worth just 500M. Hed be worth 10 times that if not more.

Thankfully for CR7, and for other players, football is not that simple. Hell, thats what makes this game so beautiful, a team like Leicester can win the best league in the world if all things fall in the right place and the right time.

 

[MrEleson]

You can check for yourself who has been better rated than CR7 in la liga. But regardless, what matters the most is that not one season out of the 9 CR7 spent on la Liga, was he better rated than Messi. Not once.

From where though? What is this holy grail that is so objective that it's the be all and end all of all analysis..

And about your last point, i never said that, careful with that reading comprehension. Im simply saying that selling the GOAT while he is still playing at top level, for 100 million is something that would not just happen in todays era, simply because 1) you cant replace a GOAT for obvious reasons and 2) if you wanted the next best thing you would have to pay more than double that. It doesnt make sense for a club to do that unless of course, its not the GOAT we are talking about.

Even Real Madrid knew that CR7 wasnt THAT good to pass on a 100M offer, he wasnt worth THAT much to Real Madrid.

Except that it's not that straightforward. Just because he was sold for said price doesn't necessarily imply that it was Madrid's absolute valuation of him. Whenever CR had been rumoured to depart in the past; Perez had always referred to his €1 Billion release clause which would immediately extinguish whatever speculation there was. The same thing happened when Juventus initially approached except this time CR was adamant he wanted to leave. It was him who specifically requested Perez to subsidise the transfer to around that price not that Madrid VALUED him at 120million. It was a cut-price deal for a player who wanted to leave by all means and had a fractured relationship with the president. To add to that, Madrid aren't a club to hold any player against his wishes (rarely players ever want to leave there). That transfer tag was more of a gentleman's agreement which would allow Ronaldo's transfer to be possible. Otherwise, how would he leave if he was to be sold for his true valuation? Maybe only 2 clubs in the world could afford his transfer value AND wages after departing Madrid.

Btw, you're forgetting Ronaldo was the first player over the age of 30 (almost 32 years old at the time) to be offered a new contract by Madrid in November 2016. He wasn't just offered a new contract, he was temporarily made the highest paid player on the planet (until Messi's renewal) and handed a 5 year extension - meaning his contract would last till his 37th birthday. That doesn't sound like a club who didn't consider a player "THAT important."

 

[Rito]

Imagine the richest club in the world, selling the greatest player of all time to a direct CL rival for 100M, in a day and age when a player like Neymar goes for 220M.

Wait, that never happened, because RM just sold CR7.

That should tell you everything TBH, IMO it is simply common sense. When the supposed GOAT supposedly single handedly gives you 3 CL trophies in a row you dont sell him, at least not while he is still putting up excelent numbers. IMO thats clear indication that even Real Madrid knew, deep inside, that he wasnt as good as people think he is in here, AKA GOAT level.

I guarantee you right now that PSG could come knocking on Barca's door with 500M euros in hand trying to sign Messi, and Barca would still laugh at that offer.

Anyway, to the guy laughing at the whoscored ratings, i mean have you read the stuff that gets posted in this thread?

Just last week there were like 10 pages dedicated to what players from the past have said about Messi and CR7. The week after that people ITT went 20 pages arguing about who had the best teams on which years, deeply analyzing every year's squad, the coaches, the national team competitions, the Onze D' Or (still dont know what that is, havent cared enough to research it).

Yet someone posts individual player ratings tracked by a neutral source, who clearly show how Messi>false GOAT, and yeah its a laughable argument. I invite you to see any game, and then check the ratings that whoscored posts for it, and 99% of the time it will be an accurate representation of how the players performed.

And i didnt even post the ratings for La Liga, which Messi and a few other players have performed way better than CR7, but thatd be a waste of time anyway since the greatness of a player is rated 100% only on the quarter finals of the Champions League from 2014-2018.

Barcelona sold maradona when he was about to enter his prime. He must be some average player as per your own twisted narrative.

Also, the season when barca doesn't renew Messis contract, it must be because "deep down they know that he is not GOAT level" and nothing to do with his age.

 

[MrEleson]

My point of Bernabeu booing Ronaldo does not support your argument. You seem to think fans are incapable of judging players fairly. Either they are biased towards a player or against him, for whatever reason. And somehow in Ronaldo's case everyone is biased against him. It couldn't be that he played poorly for certain periods of time and the fans booed him for it? Did you watch La Liga last season, particularly the first part? Extremely rare poor performance? So the stadium booes Ronaldo and your first conclusion is they are fickle, not that he was underperforming by some chance?

When he was being booed, he wasn't playing poorly for any stretch of time. It was often one-off games. One in which he even scored 4 goals Ironically, when he endured that poor period of form in front of goal in the league in late 2017; he wasn't really being booed. The most notable times were back in 2012 against Granada and in 2016 against Celta Vigo where I already mentioned he scored 4 goals. And yeah, poor performances were extremely rare from him at the time they were booing. All you have to do is take a look at his record in those years and it tells the story. Even if we factor in last year's poor run of form early on in the league, it's still a drop in the ocean considering he's their all-time topscorer in all competitions and the 2nd topscorer in the history of la liga with more goals than games (best ratio). He has generally been phenomenal in the league and you couldn't ask for much more from him. In all of his years playing in la liga, he has either registered more goals than games or a goal-a-game thereabouts. So if you find the Madrid crowd booing him acceptable by any stretch of the imagination then you must really be deluded yourself or one of those guys that thinks players are machines and should play a 120/100 game all the time, if they drop to 90/100 or 80/100; it isn't good enough and their previous work never happened.

I have not seen the Camp Nou boo Messi because he has been by far the most important player for the club since 2006-07 and I don't remember him playing poorly if not for fatigue. Even when he underperforms for his standards, he's still better than everyone else. This also happens to be one of the differences between Messi and Ronaldo. Messi's low level is still the highest on the pitch, Ronaldo's isn't. I am paying attention perfectly well, don't worry. I can see Barcelona adore Messi much more, it's just that you seem to have a different idea as to why that is. He is not adored because the bar is set lower in Barcelona, but because he is a better footballer and performs better and more consistently for his club than Ronaldo has. It's really not that complicated, there is no conspiracy in Real Madrid against Ronaldo, he simply isn't held in as high a regard as Messi because he isn't on his level.

You claim you pay attention very well yet your arguments are littered with fallacies. If Messi's worst level is still the best on the pitch, he would have had more impact against teams that Barca have crashed out to in the CL in recent years. He was non-existent against Atletico in both legs in 2014 (even covered less ground than the goalkeeper), non-existent against them in 2016; played fairly well against Juve at the Allianz in the 1st leg of the 2017 QFs (not the best player on the pitch) and did nothing in the return leg at home. The following year he was absolutely atrocious in the 1st leg of the RO16 tie against PSG (probably one of the poorest I've seen him play) and in the 2nd game he was easily upstaged by Neymar in that emphatic and memorable comeback. Similarly, Ronaldo has upstaged him in many clasicos where his low level definitely wasn't "the best on the pitch." Don't even get me started on that Roma game where his low level really wasn't the best on the pitch. The only thing I can say is: that sentence must have been said hyperbolically.

And for the bolded; I really doubt Messi is more loved at Barcelona than Ronaldo is at Madrid because he's been better for them. If that was the case why are Xavi and Iniesta more celebrated than Ronaldo? And Ronaldinho too? The former were at least inferior players and Ronaldinho spent far less time at the club than Ronaldo did at Madrid and achieved a fraction of the level of success too. Moreover, Messi or no Messi, Ronaldo is STILL Madrid's record goalscorer and was STILL the most instrumental component to them winning 4 CL titles (more than Messi won for Barca as a key player) including an unprecedented 3 consecutive triumphs. On top of that, there are his generally otherworldly numbers that he put up for the club during that period that really don't receive the appreciation and adulation it deserves.

About the clubs seeing great players throughout their history, you're arguing against yourself without realizing it. In recent history, Barcelona have had the best players in the world on the roster. Maradona, Ronaldo Fenomeno, Romario, Ronaldinho... if anything, the bar is set higher in Barcelona in the last few decades because those players were more recent than the ones you mention for Madrid. Messi has simply excelled for Barcelona so much so that we cannot imagine the team without him, because we haven't achieved success without him since 2006. It's not the same with Madrid, who are capable of winning huge Champions League games with Ronaldo doing a disappearing act. But instead of seeing the differences in what Messi and Ronaldo do for Barcelona and Madrid, you choose to believe there is somehow bias all around.

Maradona played for Barcelona for 2 seasons where he wasn't even at his best. Going by what happened after, that period was more of a footnote in his career. He isn't a Barca legend in anyway. Ronaldo also only played at Barca for one season so didn't really have time to establish himself as a legendary figure for the club even though he was incredible in that one season. The affection and devotion from the crowd just didn't have enough time to develop before he jumped ship. Similar thing would apply to Romario where he had a great first season and scored only 7 goals in his 2nd season and left. Nothing like the Madrid legends at all. The only one you can really claim legit is Ronaldinho.

 

[Hawks2008]

It's still so insane to me how well the two of them have adapted their games. Ronaldo may not the flying winger he used to be but how he has reinvented himself the last 4-5 years as a pure goal machine is nothing short of incredible. As for Messi, 2012 will likely be remembered as his peak but he probably has more to his game now than ever before. It's also insane to me how they've maintained their levels into their 30's now and the gap between them and the rest might be wider than ever.

 

[2mufc0]

Barcelona sold maradona when he was about to enter his prime. He must be some average player as per your own twisted narrative.

Also, the season when barca doesn't renew Messis contract, it must be because "deep down they know that he is not GOAT level" and nothing to do with his age.

These are the sort of arguments they resort to, it's pathetic.

 

[Peyroteo]

Ronaldo - goals = Nani
Messi - goals = Xavi

Xavi > Nani, so Messi > Ronaldo

Ronaldo could score half the goals he does and be every bit as good.

In the past few years since he’s become the type of player he is now he’s simultaneously the most high profile player in the world and the most misunderstood player in world football. It’s honestly incredible how so many people fail to understand the impact he has on the game and on the teams he plays for.

Benzema has outscored Ronaldo this season, he isn’t half the player. Why is that?

24 goals in 36 games with quite a few of those being penalties is hardly impressive and yet it’s been his best season since Ancelotti was his manager in Madrid.

 

[Peyroteo]

So what? Were Real Madrid in serious need of that money? They sold the (according to you) best player in the world and greatest of all time for a 100 million. At 33 years old or 23 years old, if you have the GOAT still playing at top level you dont sell him to a direct CL competitor for less money than the Coutinhos of the world are being sold for.

Imagine Barcelona selling Messi to... i dont know, Manchester City for 100M? Would that ever happen? Hell, would that happen for 1 billion? Im not too sure.

If he asked to leave? Of fecking course it would happen...

Difference is Barca aren’t stupid enough to get Messi to a point where he wants to leave. Barcelona isn’t Real Madrid, things work very differently at both clubs. Barcelona bend over backwards to everything Messi wants (rightly so), that doesn’t happen in Madrid with anyone

You’re talking like Madrid made that decision and it was the correct one. Have you seen them play football this season? It’s their worst season in 20 fecking years! Meanwhile Juve are in the CL quarters and might be breaking Italy’s points record... the most tightly run club in the world had no problem spending 100 million for a 33 year old player and that is now supposed to be proof of how little he’s rated as a player? What the feck

 

[Zehner]

It’s honestly incredible how so many people fail to understand the impact he has on the game and on the teams he plays for.

Strange, a thousand ghost drivers on the street today. Seems like I'm the only one knowing how to drive in this world.

 

[Zehner]

If he asked to leave? Of fecking course it would happen...

Difference is Barca aren’t retarded enough to get Messi to a point where he wants to leave. Barcelona isn’t Real Madrid, things work very differently at both clubs. Barcelona bend over backwards to everything Messi wants (rightly so), that doesn’t happen in Madrid with anyone

You’re talking like Madrid made that decision and it was the correct one. Have you seen them play football this season? It’s their worst season in 20 fecking years! Meanwhile Juve are in the CL quarters and might be breaking Italy’s points record... the most tightly run club in the world had no problem spending 100 million for a 33 year old player and that is now supposed to be proof of how little he’s rated as a player? What the feck

I'm on Peyroteo's side here. Not a good argument at all. 100m for a 33 year old is a testament to his quality.

I don't think Madrid thought he was replaceable. If they did, they'd have bought someone to replace him but they didn't even try respectively bring someone to at least depress his department. I think they realized it was time for a rebuild after the team looked very saturated, moved on and initiated the renewal that way.

 

[Peyroteo]

Strange, a thousand ghost drivers on the street today. Seems like I'm the only one knowing how to drive in this world.

Tbh here in Portugal that would probably be about right

Most people would agree with me on what I said there and recognize what Ronaldo brings to a team even if he's not scoring. Even if that wasn't the case, having an unpopular opinion hardly means it's wrong. Very weird point for you to make given out of the two of us you definitely have more unique views on how football should be played.

I'm on Peyroteo's side here.

What?

This doesn't feel right.

 

[Tostao_80]

Ronaldo could score half the goals he does and be every bit as good.

In the past few years since he’s become the type of player he is now he’s simultaneously the most high profile player in the world and the most misunderstood player in world football. It’s honestly incredible how so many people fail to understand the impact he has on the game and on the teams he plays for.

Benzema has outscored Ronaldo this season, he isn’t half the player. Why is that?

24 goals in 36 games with quite a few of those being penalties is hardly impressive and yet it’s been his best season since Ancelotti was his manager in Madrid.

Now thats not true is it? Cristianos legacy is built mainly on his goals/ stats. You honestly think if he finished his career with 400 goals instead if 800 (with the sane game), he would thought of as highly? Not a chance. Goals are the only thing he does on a GOAT level. With half the goals, Messi still provides GOAT level dribbling, passing and creativity. His game alone would warrant him a seat with the very best.
Can you name me 5 legendary/ great Cristiano games where he doesnt score? Not just very good ones, but so great that commentators/ fans are in absolute awe after the game. Are there any of his games that come close to Messi against Madrid in the Manita for example? Anything even close?
There simply arent. Cristiano without goals is just a very good player.

 

[Zehner]

Tbh here in Portugal that would probably be about right

In here people even hate you for forgettibg to use the direction indicator once.

Most people would agree with me on what I said there and recognize what Ronaldo brings to a team even if he's not scoring. Even if that wasn't the case, having an unpopular opinion hardly means it's wrong. Very weird point for you to make given out of the two of us you definitely have more unique views on how football should be played.

No, it doesn' t mean you are wrong but if the overwhelming majority thinks you are, this at least should have you questioning your beliefs because nobody's logic is flawless. And I think if you'd ask random people who contributes more apart from his goals, who has the greater impact if he doesn't score, the overwhelming majority would answer Messi. You are more or less the only one arguing the opposite, not even your fellow Ronaldo supporters make those claims.

What?

This doesn't feel right.

That's the feeling when you are right! May seem a bit strange at first but you'll get used to it once it has happened a few times :P

 

[Peyroteo]

Now thats not true is it? Cristianos legacy is built mainly on his goals/ stats. You honestly think if he finished his career with 400 goals instead if 800 (with the same game), he would thought of as highly? Not a chance.

He wouldn't be thought of as highly by a lot of people, he'd be just as good of a football player though. Depends on what goals he lost though obviously.

If he had played for Juventus his whole career with their defensive style of play he'd have obviously scored a lot less goals, wouldn't make him a worse football player though. Put Griezmann in Barcelona and Messi in Atletico and their numbers would look a lot closer while they remain the same players.

Goals are the only thing he does on a GOAT level. With half the goals, Messi still provides GOAT level dribbling, passing and creativity. His game alone would warrant him a seat with the very best.
Can you name me 5 legendary/ great Cristiano games where he doesnt score?

Have you started watching football in the past 3/4 years?

Madrid vs Napoli 2017, Juve vs Napoli 2018, Madrid vs Atletico 2015, Hungary-Portugal 2017, Juve vs Valencia as far as somewhat high profile games are concerned from the past 3/4 years. Before then, too many to count. You're a Manchester United fan, right? Go back and watch the games you were too young to watch then. Once upon a time the critics' problem was that he played very well but didn't score enough...

Football isn't scoring, passing and dribbling. You cannot divide the sport into the 3 categories you want, forget the rest of it and then formulate your opinions from that. It's like saying Ronaldo has a better right foot than Messi and he's a better header of the ball while Messi only has a better left foot... therefore Ronaldo is better. That's not how the sport works. You're massively simplifying what's very complex and ignoring the different ways of scoring, the different ways of passing, the different ways of creating, etc. if you choose to compare using only what Messi's better at then your conclusion will be easy.

Even FIFA or Football Manager have more than 3 or 4 different attributes for each player. Benzema has outscored Ronaldo so far this season, by all accounts he's a better passer, a better dribbler and a more creative player... so why is he not a better football player? Why is this stupid logic only applied when it comes to Messi and Ronaldo?

 

[Peyroteo]

No, it doesn' t mean you are wrong but if the overwhelming majority thinks you are, this at least should have you questioning your beliefs because nobody's logic is flawless. And I think if you'd ask random people who contributes more apart from his goals, who has the greater impact if he doesn't score, the overwhelming majority would answer Messi. You are more or less the only one arguing the opposite, not even your fellow Ronaldo supporters make those claims.

Being in the minority makes it easy to question your beliefs. It's when you're in the majority that it doesn't happen.

I think we mean different things when we answer the question of who has the bigger impact without scoring. By 'bigger impact' you mean the direct impact they have on the game via dribbling, passing, etc., but what I mean is their impact goes beyond that and they affect the game on a much bigger scale. 99% of time they're on the pitch they don't have the ball at their feet, why judge their impact solely on the 1% of a match like most people do?

Forget one particular game, put Ronaldo in this Barcelona team instead of Messi and they automatically become a completely different team. Same if you put Messi in this Juve team. Different players will play, their philosophy will change, systems will change, mentality will change, the roles of certain players will change, etc. there are no stats sheets for this. In my opinion, having Ronaldo in the team makes it more likely for most teams to succeed.

 

[VanKenny]

Barcelona sold maradona when he was about to enter his prime. He must be some average player as per your own twisted narrative.

Also, the season when barca doesn't renew Messis contract, it must be because "deep down they know that he is not GOAT level" and nothing to do with his age.

Is CR7 a cocaine addict?
Did he get into multiple fights, kung fu kicking opposition players and getting himself suspended from the league, plus multiple other actions that showed a clear lack of discipline
Does he drink every night and parties every weekend?
Did Real Madrid change their training schedule from the mornings to the afternoons because CR7 would wake up every morning with hangover?
Did Maradona won 3 CLs in a row and became the absolute, no question best player of all time for Barcelona?


I mean, i get what its like to argue with CR7 fans, but even you guys should know better than to compare CR7 to Maradona. It isnt even close, one is a professional and treats his body like a temple, the other one was the complete opposite and thought himself to be bigger than the club.

However, selling the greatest of all time for 100M on this day and age, while he is still playing at his best level to a direct CL competitor and a often CL semifinalist, is in no way shape or form a good deal. Selling CR7, however, it is.

Now dont get me wrong, being sold for 100M at 33 speaks of CR7's greatness, we are talking about a top 5 of all time player IMO. Just not the GOAT.

 

[Tommy]

Let's turn that "v" into an "&" for a moment.



Great video.

 

[Saffron]

Let's turn that "v" into an "&" for a moment.

Oh go back to reddit. Before I found RedCafe, I thought Messi vs Ronaldo discussions didn’t exist because every attempt was quickly shut down by anxious people afraid of real discussions. ”Can’t we just enjoy these two great players”. They just want to circle jerk over some widely accepted opinion and act like they’re all special for agreeing with it.

What I’m interested in is if the resident Ronaldo brigade thought Ronaldo was the Goat even before 2016 when he had 1 less Euro, 1 less league and 3 less CLs. If they did then we can safely disregard all their opinions because then they’re simply fanboys.

 

[Tommy]

Oh go back to reddit. Before I found RedCafe, I thought Messi vs Ronaldo discussions didn’t exist because every attempt was quickly shut down by anxious people afraid of real discussions. ”Can’t we just enjoy these two great players”. They just want to circle jerk over some widely accepted opinion and act like they’re all special for agreeing with it.

What I’m interested in is if the resident Ronaldo brigade thought Ronaldo was the Goat even before 2016 when he had 1 less Euro, 1 less league and 3 less CLs. If they did then we can safely disregard all their opinions because then they’re simply fanboys.

I'm in the Messi camp all day, so I'm far from taking the moral high ground here Like I said a page or two back, without goals, one of them is still a world class playmaker & a generational talent, while the other is little more than a taller Nani.

 

[FigmentOfYerImagination]

Oh go back to reddit. Before I found RedCafe, I thought Messi vs Ronaldo discussions didn’t exist because every attempt was quickly shut down by anxious people afraid of real discussions. ”Can’t we just enjoy these two great players”. They just want to circle jerk over some widely accepted opinion and act like they’re all special for agreeing with it.

What I’m interested in is if the resident Ronaldo brigade thought Ronaldo was the Goat even before 2016 when he had 1 less Euro, 1 less league and 3 less CLs. If they did then we can safely disregard all their opinions because then they’re simply fanboys.

The selectiveness and monopolising in these discussions is per definition a fanboy issue. First of all, there's more than these two players that qualify for the title, but the manner of comparison is tainted by arbitrary circumstance from the start.

I'm wondering how one can claim a GOAT period when both time hasn't ran out yet and performance is very contextual, time dependent. Let's juts compare the modern day situation to just 40 years ago. Footballs in the '70s were completely and I mean, completely, different from footballs today. Football fields were generally of lesser and more varied quality than they are today. Teams, available tactical and analytical assistance technology differed and training methods, time available for training and quality of training devices differed greatly. And then of course, your opposition faced is different. Can we presume the available opposition/resistance is equal to today? Were the teams as optimised? I doubt it, as today talent is concentrated in a select few teams due to the budget differences, whereas back then teams were largely made up of locals. Therefore one may argue the local available pool of talent to enhance the star player was more limited per team.

Do we take that into account when deciding who is the GOAT? Do we decide GOATs for various eras instead? If so, can we still speak of a GOAT? Can we say for sure that each of these people would have thrived in a different setting?


Hence I find the concept of the term, let alone the discussion rather... pointless. I'm looking at everyone here and wonder why they're wasting their time with argueing who is better and taking tribal-like sides. Often resulting in trying to find negatives about the other, or even hatred/dislike, rather than just appreciate they're both good players in their own right. :/



This kind of debate is like asking who were the best: The Beatles or The Rolling Stones? Why just the rivalry between them? Personally I absolutely don't care, not in the least because it's an era specific question, but also because there's very little reason to compare them in the first place, since it's not mutually exclusive that you like both equally well. And lastly, that this question seems to mostly be born out of competition between rival clubs and the tribalism associated with that, rather than 'rival' players.

[/spoilsport]

Carry on!

:3

 

[Tostao_80]

He wouldn't be thought of as highly by a lot of people, he'd be just as good of a football player though. Depends on what goals he lost though obviously.

If he had played for Juventus his whole career with their defensive style of play he'd have obviously scored a lot less goals, wouldn't make him a worse football player though. Put Griezmann in Barcelona and Messi in Atletico and their numbers would look a lot closer while they remain the same players.



Have you started watching football in the past 3/4 years?

Madrid vs Napoli 2017, Juve vs Napoli 2018, Madrid vs Atletico 2015, Hungary-Portugal 2017, Juve vs Valencia as far as somewhat high profile games are concerned from the past 3/4 years. Before then, too many to count. You're a Manchester United fan, right? Go back and watch the games you were too young to watch then. Once upon a time the critics' problem was that he played very well but didn't score enough...

Football isn't scoring, passing and dribbling. You cannot divide the sport into the 3 categories you want, forget the rest of it and then formulate your opinions from that. It's like saying Ronaldo has a better right foot than Messi and he's a better header of the ball while Messi only has a better left foot... therefore Ronaldo is better. That's not how the sport works. You're massively simplifying what's very complex and ignoring the different ways of scoring, the different ways of passing, the different ways of creating, etc. if you choose to compare using only what Messi's better at then your conclusion will be easy.

Even FIFA or Football Manager have more than 3 or 4 different attributes for each player. Benzema has outscored Ronaldo so far this season, by all accounts he's a better passer, a better dribbler and a more creative player... so why is he not a better football player? Why is this stupid logic only applied when it comes to Messi and Ronaldo?

Very disappointing post. You think in 10 years time people will be talking about Cristianos performance against the mighty Hungary. Scraping the barrel there.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Has this been posted yet?

And to think people think this debate is a tough one to call

 

[Peyroteo]

Might aswell make a Duvan Zapata vs Ronaldo thread.

 

[Cal?]

Has this been posted yet?

And to think people think this debate is a tough one to call

Yes, let’s boil the whole debate down to ONE season where Cristiano moved to a new league at 33 and may yet still win more than Messi.

 

[Saffron]

Has this been posted yet?

And to think people think this debate is a tough one to call

Absolutely agree

Those who say it’s tough to call tend to have a heavy inclination towards Ronaldo. They love to act like it’s close. And when you press them on it, they always reveal themselves as closet Ronaldistas.

The ones who outright say Ronaldo is better are just embarrassing themselves at this point.

 

[MrEleson]

Isn’t ironic that when Ronaldo produces superior numbers, Messi fans dismiss it and say that they don’t convey the full story and how Messi is much more than numbers. Yet, this season when his numbers are superior, it’s now not even a debate because of them: completely ignoring the fact that Ronaldo has changed teams, is adapting to a new league with different players with a completely different playing style (much more defensive) - whereas Messi has been playing in a side under team dynamics that have been tailor made for him for years and years now, alongside players that know and understand his every move like their own name (such as alba).

 

[Saffron]

Isn’t ironic that when Ronaldo produces superior numbers, Messi fans dismiss it and say that they don’t convey the full story and how Messi is much more than numbers. Yet, this season when his numbers are superior, it’s now not even a debate because of them: completely ignoring the fact that Ronaldo has changed teams, is adapting to a new league with different players with a completely different playing style (much more defensive) - whereas Messi has been playing in a side under team dynamics that have been tailor made for him for years and years now, alongside players that know his every move like their own name (such as alba).

First you want to give Ronaldo credit over Messi for switching leagues and ”seeking a new challenge”, and then when he fails to replicate the form from when he had a custom built Madrid team around him you dismiss it for the exact same reason.

Lesson number 1 in the Cult of Ronaldo: everything speaks in favour of Ronaldo.

 

[Black Adder]

Might aswell make a Duvan Zapata vs Ronaldo thread.

Tbf it would make more sense than this one.
hehe

 

[MJJ]

First you want to give Ronaldo credit over Messi for switching leagues and ”seeking a new challenge”, and then when he fails to replicate the form from when he had a custom built Madrid team around him you dismiss it for the exact same reason.

Lesson number 1 in the Cult of Ronaldo: everything speaks in favour of Ronaldo.

Says the poster who has come out with gems like Portugal have always been better than Argentina or that the only reason Ronaldo was popular was due to his looks and now that messi has had a haircut he is better

 

[Saffron]

Says the poster who has come out with gems like Portugal have always been better than Argentina or that the only reason Ronaldo was popular was due to his looks and now that messi has had a haircut he is better

I literally said Argentina is better but they don’t compete in the euros. But don’t let facts get in the way of busting out the