What the hell is an onzo dor
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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It's only football.
For most of us yes, to some it is never thus.
Dint think the narrative will change much after this year.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/...h_190407&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=584487790407
Lionel Messi’s Goals Go Viral Like No Other Player
Lionel Messi’s Goals Go Viral Like No Other Player
Americans talking about soccer
"Soccer would seem antithetical to highlight culture. But viral video is altering our view of its history." - Really? What do they think goals are?
Ronaldo is a phenomenal player, one of the best ever, but aside from heading there’s not anything that he’s better than Messi at.
Messi is a better finisher, dribbler, passer and has even become better at free kicks. On top of that he’s much more exciting to watch. I’ll forever appreciate what Ronaldo did for us and I’m sure I’ll hate Messi and Barcelona after Tuesday night, but being objective, Messi has this won.
Messi is a better finisher, dribbler, passer and has even become better at free kicks. On top of that he’s much more exciting to watch. I’ll forever appreciate what Ronaldo did for us and I’m sure I’ll hate Messi and Barcelona after Tuesday night, but being objective, Messi has this won.
Americans talking about soccer
"Soccer would seem antithetical to highlight culture. But viral video is altering our view of its history." - Really? What do they think goals are?
Where are you from?
India, but I've been living in Boston for a few years. Anyway, I didn't mean to make a sweeping statement - I do find the way they talk about football here quite strange sometimes. And this NYT article is quite ridiculous. Consider this paragraph:
Messi is the quintessential internet-age soccer star — he scored his first goal for Barcelona in 2005, the year YouTube went online — but his persona is a throwback to an earlier period. He is a trickster and a funnyman, like an old-time silent-movie star. He’s small and scrappy, standing just 5-foot-7, the Charlie Chaplin to suave Ronaldo’s Rudolph Valentino. Many of his greatest moments play out like slapstick farce, leaving pratfalling defenders littered across the pitch.
The writer seemed to have an idea here and then bent everything in its service. Small and scrappy? Slapstick farce? Are we talking about Messi - one of the most elegant movers with the ball - or Shaqiri here?
Cool, carry on then
I read the article. He does lay it on a bit thick at times. Typical for the NY times though. Rory Smith's articles in the same paper about football are better.
I dont know too. And i refuse to google it. Sounds like a "golden eleven" though. Or some Dr Evil machine.
It's an annual award given to football players/managers based on a voting done by the readers of a French Magazine.
Utter tripe
Can anyone speak with some common sense on this ?Anyone who thinks there's a clearly definable, objective 'best' can probably not be argued to have common sense.Utter tripe
I live in Zagreb and from the people I talk to about football, I didn't notice anyone prefering Ronaldo. I'm sure there are those that do, though.
I just find it funny how it's implied now that you have to be on Catalan soil to prefer Messi. This is why I like this thread, you'll always read something new, even if people think it's repetitive. We witnessed people defend Cristiano Ronaldo by arguing not everything is in stats and goals.
I would agree that Berardo Silva is playing excellent, however how closely do you follow Everton to have an opinion about Digne? Does he perform better than Sila? I doubt that, but it's possible he's having a very good season.
Looks like dismissing something based on conventional wisdom and reputation. Like people used to say Van Dijk can't possibly be that good, his stats are dubious etc, because he's playing for Southampton.
It helps identifying players that are doing well for teams you don't follow and are flying under the radar. Looks useful to me.
Disagree. All methods of evaluating player offer plenty of odd results and have their downsides. Use it as part of your toolkit.
Just watching the game: you can't possibly pick up everything - have ten "experts" watch the same game/player and you get ten different opinions.
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well, obviously there are people that prefer Ronaldo, it's normal and I don't find anything odd in that. what's more telling for me is the fact you can find portuguese fans, United fans, Juve fans and Madrid fans who simply view Messi as a better player regardless of success they had with him. yet I don't know a single Barca fan who would say Ronaldo is better than Messi even today, let alone when they were winning trebles. not that it's an ultimate argument on who's better between the two, I'm just saying.
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There are plenty of United and Real Madrid fans who detest Ronaldo for the way he left the clubs and therefore hold a grudge against him for it, so even that isn’t necessarily the ultimate test of impartiality in the matter. I’ll give you an example. When neymar left Barca, I read Barca forums and saw a lot of people labelling “a fraud of player anyway” and how Dembele was already better than the “Brazilian Dolphin” at the time. Ofcourse, there are obviously United fans that believe Messi is better but I don’t think they are as inclined to be biased towards Ronaldo in this argument as he left so long ago. And of course with Madrid fans, the majority still have fresh wounds from him leaving and the way he left.
Btw, I’ve read Barca forums and from time to time they fear that Ronaldo will retire being regarded the better player.
Neymar never had too many fans in Barcelona. Generally I like him as a player, he did enough for us but it's a pity he didn't stick around to do more. If I blame him for something, it's for the missed opportunity to continue making history. It's just a shame, that's all. My opinion of him as a player hasn't changed after he left. You like to forget there were times Ronaldo was booed in the Bernabeu, and I don't think that happened because he was playing too well. Or maybe the fans booed him preemptively, knowing he would leave a couple of years down the line?
This idea that now United and Madrid fans may not be biased towards Ronaldo, but against Ronaldo, is another example of creative thinking that I like to see here. The problem is that it's inconsistent with eveything else. Maybe us Barcelona fans are, in truth, biased against Messi, not towards him? Because going by Ronaldo's fans' views on football, Messi underperformed (choked) in the Champions League for us, so why don't we criticize him? If he is the reason we failed to win more Champions League trophies, wouldn't it stand to reason that there'd be some discord here rather than adulation? It appears that Madrid fans are biased against Ronaldo after winning 4 Champions Leagues, but Barcelona fans are biased towards Messi despite him being a failure for us in Europe.
It isn’t creative thinking though. I’ve seen it with my own two eyes. Go to some Madrid boards ike on websites such as bigsoccer forum and the majority of posters wanted Juve to be knocked out of the CL against their bitter rivals Atletico Madrid (yes they actually preferred Atletico to Juve) and some would rather have had Barcelona win the whole thing instead of Juve. Many of the guys on there were bitter regarding Ronaldo’s remarks on Juve being more of a family than Madrid. They simply failed to care about what he had done for the club previously and viewed him more as a traitor. Your point about the Bernebeau crowd booing him even further supports my argument. Clearly, despite what Ronaldo was doing at Madrid and the kind of staggering numbers he was putting up every week, the supporters were fickle enough to still turn on him and boo him whenever he exhibited an extremely rare poor performance. I’ve neevr seen or heard the Camp Nou boo Messi. That notion is almost unthinkable.
You have to be not paying attention to see that Barca adore Messi infinitely more than Madrid have ever or will ever adore Ronaldo; despite arguably being the greatest in their history. It may be due to the fact that Madrid have seen greater players than Barca throughout the clubs existence with Di Stefano, Puskas, Gento, Zidane, etc etc all having donned the white of the shirt while Barca’s greatest period only really came in the last 20 or so years and before that they never really had players on the level Madrid have had all over the pitch. So may be the fans are historically spoilt? Barcelona fans have no reason to biased against Messi at all. He is basically “Mr.Barcelona”. He has played at your club his entire career and is a key part of the greatest era in the clubs history. Yeah when people criticise him for the Champions league exits; it’s not because he’s at fault but it’s the extremely high standards set in the debate against Ronaldo who has generally excelled in that competition. No one says it’s all his fault. Of course, being the supposed greatest ever you’ll shoulder most of the blame just like when they win, he’ll receive most of the plaudits.
The same thing also happens with Ronaldo. Messi has been by far the most integral part of Barca’s la liga dominance this last decade and is generally what makes the club as popular as it is despite CL failures.
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I've watched Everton loads. Digne is a good player, one of the better left backs in the league. He still hasn't been better than Silva or even close to being as good a football as he is. I'm not dismissing anything based on conventional wisdom, it's just that the likes of Schar and Deeney are objectively not some of the best performing players in the entire division. In the same way that Trippier has definitely not been better than Robertson, Steve Cook hasn't been as good as Laporte and James Tomkins hasn't been as good as Vertonghen.
When you consistently get players who have odd ratings, the ratings system is clearly inherently flawed. Is it completely useless? Probably not, since the very best generally are at the high end of the list. But it's pretty clear that it shouldn't be held up as some objective, unarguable way to assess a player, because certain things a player does on the pitch can't be calculated in to an average whoscored rating. Hence why saying 'look, whoscored says Ronaldo isn't as good, and whoscored is neutral!' isn't really helpful.
There are certain stats which are useful. But a whoscored average rating is simply too vague and throws up too many questions about what they're taking in to account. There are far more accurate ways to back up your argument.
Not at all, do you struggle with simple reading comprehension? I merely suggested it's far more likely that someone can have a group of friends all in agreement that Messi is better if one was based in Catalonia.
This is also Trumpian false equivalency at work.Ronaldo forced his way out at both United and Real Madrid, Messi looks like he will retire at Barca. That's a huge difference.
As for Barca fans loving Messi, let's face it, you have won ONE CL (likely on your way to a 2nd with or without him) in your entire history. Since he came onto the scene you've added 3 more to move you into the select group of clubs who have won it multiple times, you have dominated La Liga for over a decade and he's played a huge part in doing it.
The general consensus among football fans is definitely that Messi is better. I think I've only ever met one person who preferred Ronaldo, and I've met football fans from numerous countries.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority are right. Messi is better to watch play and an easier person to like than Ronaldo is, it's no surprise that he would be the people's choice.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority are right. Messi is better to watch play and an easier person to like than Ronaldo is, it's no surprise that he would be the people's choice.
Not really. There are plenty who think Ronaldo is up there. When Messi won 4 ballon'dors in a row he cemented his status, but after Ronaldo has caught up with him in this regard, he is up there also. I personally think Ronaldo lacks the technical genius to be up at the very highest, but there are others who feel he does. Obviously being all time top scorer in the CL elevates his status. I wouldn't know where to place C. Ronaldo in a top 10 of all time, but I think he has far surpassed Luiz Ronaldo as far as his career goes. If Messi hadn't played in the same generation, Ronaldo might have won 10 ballon'dors which alone qualifies him to be one of the very greatest of all time.
Ronaldo forced his way out at both United and Real Madrid, Messi looks like he will retire at Barca. That's a huge difference.
As for Barca fans loving Messi, let's face it, you have won ONE CL (likely on your way to a 2nd with or without him) in your entire history. Since he came onto the scene you've added 3 more to move you into the select group of clubs who have won it multiple times, you have dominated La Liga for over a decade and he's played a huge part in doing it.
Love it when Cal gives credit to Messi
Come join the dark side.
Maybe The Hilary Clinton of CR7 Fans is the most appropriate tag for Cal?
I have said numerous times that I think he's the 2nd best player ever.
In a few months you'd probably be suggesting Kamala Harris of CR7 fans.
In a few months you'd probably be suggesting Kamala Harris of CR7 fans.
Why? Do you suddenly plan to pivot and post constantly about Harris in the next few months as you did about HRC the last 4 years?
She would be my preferred choice out of the candidates so far.
Except I'm not.@Cal? being female would definitely explain his preference of Cristiano
I'm just combining the two cults of personality that seem to drive 99% of your posts. You'd have to make a thousand posts about Harris over the next few month to come close to competing with that.
not like I posted about Trump much when you made your previous suggestion.
Your posting style resembles Trump's (smileys, anyone that disagrees with you is Messi Bridage, Bernie Bros, etc). That is why that title was appropriate.
Let's all take a moment to remember one of the greatest taglines in the history of Redcafe
My point of Bernabeu booing Ronaldo does not support your argument. You seem to think fans are incapable of judging players fairly. Either they are biased towards a player or against him, for whatever reason. And somehow in Ronaldo's case everyone is biased against him. It couldn't be that he played poorly for certain periods of time and the fans booed him for it? Did you watch La Liga last season, particularly the first part? Extremely rare poor performance? So the stadium booes Ronaldo and your first conclusion is they are fickle, not that he was underperforming by some chance?
I have not seen the Camp Nou boo Messi because he has been by far the most important player for the club since 2006-07 and I don't remember him playing poorly if not for fatigue. Even when he underperforms for his standards, he's still better than everyone else. This also happens to be one of the differences between Messi and Ronaldo. Messi's low level is still the highest on the pitch, Ronaldo's isn't. I am paying attention perfectly well, don't worry. I can see Barcelona adore Messi much more, it's just that you seem to have a different idea as to why that is. He is not adored because the bar is set lower in Barcelona, but because he is a better footballer and performs better and more consistently for his club than Ronaldo has. It's really not that complicated, there is no conspiracy in Real Madrid against Ronaldo, he simply isn't held in as high a regard as Messi because he isn't on his level.
About the clubs seeing great players throughout their history, you're arguing against yourself without realizing it. In recent history, Barcelona have had the best players in the world on the roster. Maradona, Ronaldo Fenomeno, Romario, Ronaldinho... if anything, the bar is set higher in Barcelona in the last few decades because those players were more recent than the ones you mention for Madrid. Messi has simply excelled for Barcelona so much so that we cannot imagine the team without him, because we haven't achieved success without him since 2006. It's not the same with Madrid, who are capable of winning huge Champions League games with Ronaldo doing a disappearing act. But instead of seeing the differences in what Messi and Ronaldo do for Barcelona and Madrid, you choose to believe there is somehow bias all around.
And lastly, about Messi being Mr. Barcelona and Barca fans not having any reason to be biased towards him, I didn't say we were biased towards him but that following some of the argument on there, we should be. Take an extreme example, we have Loris Karius in the team and he makes a mess of a Champions League final. Do I downplay his mistakes and ignore the fact he cost us the title because he wears my team's shirt? Of course not, I criticize him and start hoping we sell him because something like that cannot be allowed to happen again. This seems reasonable as a fan's reaction, right? Apply this logic to Messi and Barcelona. The main argument against Messi is that he chokes on the biggest stage, as ridiculous as that is. When you read some of the arguments on here, it appears we could have won several more Champions Leagues if not for Messi choking. This is done to form an argument of Messi vs Ronaldo on the Champions League stage only, and then team efforts are condensed down to individual performances to boost Ronaldo's case. It's the favourite stick to beat Messi with. But if this is so, if Messi truly has choked in the Champions League, who would have more interest in criticizing him for it than me, a Barcelona fan? The main talking point against Messi makes no sense as it isn't logically sound. Leave it to fans of all the other teams to tell us Barcelona fans how Messi did for us.
I don't think I do. Your mere suggestion was off.
*checks Google Maps*
How so? Most of your posts consist of these one-liners that don't seem to have any hold in what the other person was saying.
You're being a hypocrite when you say that. You don't think Messi is the 2nd best in history, it's just something you say so that the other nonsense you write goes down easier. You've said numerous times that Messi is a bottler, called him a midget etc. You probably can't tell, but your distaste for Messi shows in whatever you write, even when you make an effort to write something positive because even that is written with an agenda in mind. Either that or you have incredibly low standards when a bottler can be the second best player in the history of the most popular sport in the world. Particularly when so much of your focus is on Ronaldo performing on the biggest stage, which is also the way to disregard league campaigns.
If Messi is the second best, who is the third and is he also a bottler like Messi?
Ronaldo - goals = Nani
Messi - goals = Xavi
Xavi > Nani, so Messi > Ronaldo
Messi - goals = Xavi
Xavi > Nani, so Messi > Ronaldo
Well considering you deleted the rest of my post, obviously it becomes a one-liner.
Now you are some kind of mind-reader? Why would I want to make what I say go down easier? Surely I should learn from you Messi brigade and claim he's not even in the top 10 or start talking about peak Ronaldinho is a much better player.That's an insult to xavi.
Well considering you deleted the rest of my post, obviously it becomes a one-liner.
Good reply.
I would like to be a mind-reader, it would help in my work, but unfortunately I'm not there yet.
Say I list Ronaldo as the second greatest ever in one thread and then call him a stat-padding narcissist in the other? Would I come across as honest? And which of those two claims would you believe more accurately reflect my views? Even without being a mind-reader yourself.
So many overly-biased bastards in this thread
I love them both, but there is only one GOAT.
I love them both, but there is only one GOAT.
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