Can a loss be a win?
If Ronaldo wins another ucl, messi brigade will be declaring reaching the semi-finals of the wc as equal to winning a ucl.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Can a loss be a win?
If Ronaldo wins another ucl, messi brigade will be declaring reaching the semi-finals of the wc as equal to winning a ucl.
Why do people that think Messi is the best bother with this thread? It’s a ridiculous waste of time trying to argue against CR7 fans in here. Imagine arguing 4 pages about CR7 being a player as creative as Messi? With that recent argument in this thread you know all you need to know about the kind of discussion you are dragging yourself into.
Imagine people 30 years ago arguing that Van Basten was on the same ballpark creativity-wise as Maradona, just because with his physicality and heading he could make opportunities for his teammates, or because of his presence on the box, he would give his teammates as much space and chances than Maradona. Would you bother arguing with someone like that week after week, season after season, for years? That’s insane in my opinion.
Arguing about who had the best teammates in which years, referees mistakes, what counts as an assist and what doesn’t, what ex-teammates think or say about them on the record… I mean, so much ridiculous stuff gets talked about in here.
To me, its very clear who is the best player, and that is Messi. And by quite a big margin, too. I know that for seeing both of them play for 10+ seasons.
If they both retire today, my opinion wont be changed. If Messi gets injured today and has to retire, and CR7 wins 3 more champions league, my opinion wont change UNLESS CR7 shows in those tournament wins a level HIGHER than Messi ever achieved. Just winning doesn’t cut it, because for all we know Dybala could be the star of all those wins and CR7 be the same player he has always been, or even worse, but still, he has 3 more CL wins so automatically he is better than Messi? Nope, at least not for me.
Iniesta scoring that goal in Stamford Bridge on the last minute in 2009 allowing Barca to reach the final and eventually win it doesn’t make Messi better. Suarez and Neymar playing great against Juve in 2014 and winning the CL don’t make Messi better in my eyes. Eder scoring the final that CR7 wasn’t even playing at doesn’t make CR7 better either, Bale scoring that overhead kick in the most recent CL final, Salah getting injured, Ramos scoring all those last minute winners to give RM the CL wins, Karius playing the worst game a goalkeeper has ever played at a final stance of a tournament, all those things doesn’t matter, that’s just football, luck, sometimes it favoured Messi, sometimes it favoured CR7, but that doesn’t change who they are as football players, that just changes what they have in their trophy cabinet. At the end of the season, Messi can do what he can do with a ball and CR7 can do what he can do with a ball, and Karius, Iniesta, Eder, the REFS etc wont ever change that.
Just watch them play, and take a look at their individual stadistics while you are at it.
Who has the better goal per game ratio? Messi
Who has the better assists per game ratio? Messi
Who has the most trophies? Messi
CR7 has 5 CLs against Messi’s 4, but he is 3 years younger. Whats going to happen if Messi wins this CL? They are both 5 vs 5, but Messi with many more la ligas, cups, etc. Would you finally admit Messi is better or will we go back to arguing about who were their managers, the refs, cold night at Stoke, etc?
And before you say Messi’s first CL doesn’t count, tell that to Mourinho. Just a couple of weeks ago, a thread on this forum was made with a link to Chelsea’s tactics in preparation to the Barca knockout legs on that CL. That very in-depth analysis talked more about Messi than prime Ronaldinho himself, Mourinho and his entire managing staff was very adamant about being careful of Messi, and yeah who was the better player of both legs? Messi. Barca KO’d Chelsea and ultimately won that CL with Messi out injured. But please tell me Messi didn’t have anything to do with that CL win, of course Mourinho was just joking with that analysis. Messi was just some random pacey kid back then.
Now, don’t even dare saying Messi had more help than CR7 because of their respective teams. To kill this argument swiftly, just check who was MOTM more times with their respective teams and different competitions and see how CR7 had the most help.
In all la ligas played, Messi was the MOTM more times than not, same for the CLs, same for the national cups. CR7 wasn’t even MOTM 25% of the time.
So Messi was the best player on the pitch, out of the 22+ players, MUCH more times than CR7.
Yet Real Madrid’s MOTM awards are way more evenly distributed trough the entire squad. That means CR7 wasn’t the best real madrid player on the pitch most of the time.
So Messi was the best player on the pitch more often than not, while CR7 wasn’t, even if CR7 was playing apparently with a bunch of mediocre, past it players, but Messi was playing with a bunch of super talented aliens, yet he was still the MOTM in most matches?
Even if we disregard every football competition other than CR7’s best competition, the Champions League, even then if we compare the average rating of every season, Messi comes on top. He was individually a better player in every CL competition, at least according to the MOTM awards and the average ratings for the season. Before you laugh at me quoting whoscored.com, just know that neither whoscored or me have anything against CR7.
Anyway, yes, even if Messi played individually better than CR7, at the end of the day he didn’t win while CR7 did, but this brings me to my first point: Ramos scoring for Madrid on the last minute TWICE (while CR7 was invisible the entire match), Bale playing like top Bale for a couple of CL finals, Karius fuking up like he had money against his own team, all those things involve 22+ human beings, what they do wrong or good, if they called an offside goal or not, etc. All those things mean Madrid won more CLs on the last few years, but that doesnt change how good or bad he is as a player. What the other 21 players on the pitch do don’t make Messi, nor CR7, better or worse. They collectively result on whether their team win or lose, yes, but don’t change the individual quality of every player.
Im a big CR7 fan btw, but I just cant compare him to Messi who is as good as a goalscorer than him(or even slightly better), but a better passer, dribbler and free kick taker. It just so happens that Messi was bailed out by his team less times than CR7 did.
Imagine people 30 years ago arguing that Van Basten was on the same ballpark creativity-wise as Maradona, just because with his physicality and heading he could make opportunities for his teammates, or because of his presence on the box, he would give his teammates as much space and chances than Maradona. Would you bother arguing with someone like that week after week, season after season, for years? That’s insane in my opinion.
Arguing about who had the best teammates in which years, referees mistakes, what counts as an assist and what doesn’t, what ex-teammates think or say about them on the record… I mean, so much ridiculous stuff gets talked about in here.
To me, its very clear who is the best player, and that is Messi. And by quite a big margin, too. I know that for seeing both of them play for 10+ seasons.
If they both retire today, my opinion wont be changed. If Messi gets injured today and has to retire, and CR7 wins 3 more champions league, my opinion wont change UNLESS CR7 shows in those tournament wins a level HIGHER than Messi ever achieved. Just winning doesn’t cut it, because for all we know Dybala could be the star of all those wins and CR7 be the same player he has always been, or even worse, but still, he has 3 more CL wins so automatically he is better than Messi? Nope, at least not for me.
Iniesta scoring that goal in Stamford Bridge on the last minute in 2009 allowing Barca to reach the final and eventually win it doesn’t make Messi better. Suarez and Neymar playing great against Juve in 2014 and winning the CL don’t make Messi better in my eyes. Eder scoring the final that CR7 wasn’t even playing at doesn’t make CR7 better either, Bale scoring that overhead kick in the most recent CL final, Salah getting injured, Ramos scoring all those last minute winners to give RM the CL wins, Karius playing the worst game a goalkeeper has ever played at a final stance of a tournament, all those things doesn’t matter, that’s just football, luck, sometimes it favoured Messi, sometimes it favoured CR7, but that doesn’t change who they are as football players, that just changes what they have in their trophy cabinet. At the end of the season, Messi can do what he can do with a ball and CR7 can do what he can do with a ball, and Karius, Iniesta, Eder, the REFS etc wont ever change that.
Just watch them play, and take a look at their individual stadistics while you are at it.
Who has the better goal per game ratio? Messi
Who has the better assists per game ratio? Messi
Who has the most trophies? Messi
CR7 has 5 CLs against Messi’s 4, but he is 3 years younger. Whats going to happen if Messi wins this CL? They are both 5 vs 5, but Messi with many more la ligas, cups, etc. Would you finally admit Messi is better or will we go back to arguing about who were their managers, the refs, cold night at Stoke, etc?
And before you say Messi’s first CL doesn’t count, tell that to Mourinho. Just a couple of weeks ago, a thread on this forum was made with a link to Chelsea’s tactics in preparation to the Barca knockout legs on that CL. That very in-depth analysis talked more about Messi than prime Ronaldinho himself, Mourinho and his entire managing staff was very adamant about being careful of Messi, and yeah who was the better player of both legs? Messi. Barca KO’d Chelsea and ultimately won that CL with Messi out injured. But please tell me Messi didn’t have anything to do with that CL win, of course Mourinho was just joking with that analysis. Messi was just some random pacey kid back then.
Now, don’t even dare saying Messi had more help than CR7 because of their respective teams. To kill this argument swiftly, just check who was MOTM more times with their respective teams and different competitions and see how CR7 had the most help.
In all la ligas played, Messi was the MOTM more times than not, same for the CLs, same for the national cups. CR7 wasn’t even MOTM 25% of the time.
So Messi was the best player on the pitch, out of the 22+ players, MUCH more times than CR7.
Yet Real Madrid’s MOTM awards are way more evenly distributed trough the entire squad. That means CR7 wasn’t the best real madrid player on the pitch most of the time.
So Messi was the best player on the pitch more often than not, while CR7 wasn’t, even if CR7 was playing apparently with a bunch of mediocre, past it players, but Messi was playing with a bunch of super talented aliens, yet he was still the MOTM in most matches?
Even if we disregard every football competition other than CR7’s best competition, the Champions League, even then if we compare the average rating of every season, Messi comes on top. He was individually a better player in every CL competition, at least according to the MOTM awards and the average ratings for the season. Before you laugh at me quoting whoscored.com, just know that neither whoscored or me have anything against CR7.
Anyway, yes, even if Messi played individually better than CR7, at the end of the day he didn’t win while CR7 did, but this brings me to my first point: Ramos scoring for Madrid on the last minute TWICE (while CR7 was invisible the entire match), Bale playing like top Bale for a couple of CL finals, Karius fuking up like he had money against his own team, all those things involve 22+ human beings, what they do wrong or good, if they called an offside goal or not, etc. All those things mean Madrid won more CLs on the last few years, but that doesnt change how good or bad he is as a player. What the other 21 players on the pitch do don’t make Messi, nor CR7, better or worse. They collectively result on whether their team win or lose, yes, but don’t change the individual quality of every player.
Im a big CR7 fan btw, but I just cant compare him to Messi who is as good as a goalscorer than him(or even slightly better), but a better passer, dribbler and free kick taker. It just so happens that Messi was bailed out by his team less times than CR7 did.
Can a loss be a win?
If Ronaldo wins another ucl, messi brigade will be declaring reaching the semi-finals of the wc as equal to winning a ucl.
Forgot to add ”from the sidelines” on the currency win. People won’t forget that and it will rightfully be brought up for generations to come.
The only reason Fat Ronaldo has half his legacy is because he was on the pitch and scored in the 2002 final. Believe me, everyone would remember if he didn’t play against Germany after having failed in the 1998 final (like Cris did in 2004).
As will messi choking in every single final he played for the NT side.
The only reason Fat Ronaldo has half his legacy is because he was on the pitch and scored in the 2002 final. Believe me, everyone would remember if he didn’t play against Germany or if Brazil had lost that final.
I like how this introduction was followed up by a 1000 words wall of text.
haha yeah, but to be fair i have not engaged in an argument with anybody... yet. Simply stated an opinion.
You claim it's a waste of time and you proceed to write a whole thesis on the matter
EDIT: But tbf you made a couple of points, I'll give you that. Well you started off well anyway..until the last half.
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27 thousand posts, do you have one of worth? I'm asking because I've been reading the forum for half a decade and I haven't seen one. Also haven't seen a single worthy reply to anything in any thread I'm currently reading. Good job, man.
Semi-relevant to the thread. I need to test out the polling mechanism for something I am doing in the general, so have devised a test poll asking people to rank footballers by who they think is best to
Great list. But just out of curio3
Can a loss be a win?
If Ronaldo wins another ucl, messi brigade will be declaring reaching the semi-finals of the wc as equal to winning a ucl.
This whole "winning the most" argument has already been debunked. The players considered the greatest in history ARE NOT the players who have won the most. That is a fact.
Sergio Ramos has won considerably more both domestically and internationally combined than Franco Baresi. Who does the world consider as better/ greater? Ramos could win 2 of the next 3 CLs. Guess what, the world will still not consider him greater. Why is that, if it's all about "winning"?
Baresi had the GAME, Ramos does not.
Why is Bobby Moore considered by many as a top 5 defender of all time? He only won the world and relatively little clubwise? Why doesn't Desailly (great though he was) get appreciated as much as Moore? Didn't he win much more? Didnt he prove it (another Cristiano fanboy favourite) in 3 different leagues?
We are talking about the panthion here. Ronaldo could win more, but he still wont ve regarded as better.
Dude, you have no idea how happy you have made me. To think there is somebody in this whole forum who actually read most of my posts is so amazing. I will call you groupie number 1.
It wasn't just me, but a team of people trying to find something, anything.
Even this last post. Come on.
What the hell happened to your post
”Ronaldo has proven himself in different leagues” is just another version of ”could Messi really do it on a rainy Tuesday at Stoke?”. Which was an actual argument made by Andy Gray in the Messi-Ronaldo debate. And mocked beyond belief.
Only Ronaldistas take it seriously.
That argument is debunked.
Only Ronaldistas take it seriously.
That argument is debunked.
What hattrick, he's a legend for that goal in the final and the winner against zhe Germans.I am talking about Messi’s Argentina career as a whole
In what universe does a player need to go far in every tournament? Van Basten is a legend for scoring a hat trick against England in Euro 88 and winning it – no one cares or remembers that he didn’t score a single goal in WC 90.
I have more than one groupie? Maybe even a fan club. Nice.
Tostao whatever you feel about winning equating the final of WC to a euro is absurd. That's coming from a messi fan not a Ronaldo one. The purist, the people who dont care about winnie, etc.
Those are the same people that will Desailly above Baresi, because "he has proved it in more leagues". Heck, they'll even put him above both Maldini and Beckenbauer.
Truly awful argument.
Good post. Can't believe I actually humoured the argument that Ronaldo and Messi are close regarding creativity with those maniacs
That could fill 300 pages in the Bluemoon.
Cal, you disappoint me once again.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...e-chooses-Lionel-Messi-Cristiano-Ronaldo.html
Pele agrees with what we have been saying all along. Cristiano is a great goalscorer, but Messi is better because he is more complete. Oh bless.
Unless you think the quote I posted is a fake, what’s your point? Pele thinks Ronaldo is the best player in the world but Messi is more complete?
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That went well.
But hat-trick against Betis and a nice freekick the other day.
My point is that Pele agrees with what we have been saying all along. Cristiano is good at scoring, but Messi scores AND creates, is more complete, AND Pele says he would rather Messi for his team. Hardly the ringing endorsement for Cristiano that you claim is it. If youre going to pick an ex manager/ player example for Cristiano, do your research and pick one that wont contradict himself (hard i know but give it a try).
Read the quote again!
Who care what he prefers for his team? In fact, if he prefers Messi's style and still think there is no doubt that Cristiano is the best player in the world, doesn't that speak volumes?
Pelé is dumb as a brick! Since he retired he always says dramatic stuff to get attention and often contradicts himself. The footballing world haven’t taken him seriously since the 80’s.
And then you have Mensa magna cum laude Boateng who can’t even decide who he likes best.
And Harvard Yale Ivy League founder Andy Gray who can barely tie his shoelaces.
There’s a reason only borderline clowns put their name on the line by saying Ronaldo is better. Maybe 1 or 2 sensible people do, but there are 100+ sensible footballing people who say Messi is better.
Are you saying a person needs a high IQ to have a valid opinion on who is the best footballer in the world?
I don't normally pay much attention to what they say, but since you lots seem to think opinions of footballers and managers are so important, I just thought I'd share some who disagree with you.
Here's a (biased?) Argie saying they're equal:
Average rating in the CL since 2009/2010:
Messi 8.46
CR7 8.11
Individually, according to whoscored.com which is a completely unbiased source unlike some of the folks in this thread, Messi has been a better CL player in the last 10 years. Messi has 4 CLs, CR7 has 5 but he is 3 years older.
In short, both have been great, both have great performances in KO stages, both have won it multiple times. Dont see this huge difference in the CL that some of you guys want to believe.
Id put them at equal so far on the CL and thats without considering what could happen in the future, with Messi likely being the center forward of Barcelona for at least the next half a decade.
Thats for the CL alone. In the league and the cup, Messi is just in a different league than CR7, AKA miles better.
Also if you want to save your time arguing shit like this, you can just, like... watch them play.
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Interesting how you're so interested in clutchness and which goals or performances matter more but then fawn over some stats which treats all goal involvements in the knockout stages as equal.
The last three times Barca won the Champions League, Messi has performed well in every single knockout round except the 2009 semifinals. Meanwhile, Ronaldo has been a ghost after the quarterfinals in three of the last four times Madrid won it.
Of course, you won't learn that from stats which treat Ronaldo's penalty in the 2014 final the same as Messi's goal in the 2011 final or his two goals in the return leg after a 6-1 victory over Schalke the same as Messi's two against Bayern in 2015.
You want to include a CL Messi did very little to win (not played from QF onwards) in 2006, yet somehow decide to quote "ratings" from 09/10 which ignores Ronaldo being the star playing in a CL winning side in 08?
Ronaldo has been by far the better player in the CL, the multi-tweets above cannot be clearer.
Messi is almost 32, you expect him to play till he's 37?
Messi did not perform well in every knockout round, it was clearly Neymar and Suarez who got them through against PSG in 15
You want to include a CL Messi did very little to win (not played from QF onwards) in 2006, yet somehow decide to quote "ratings" from 09/10 which ignores Ronaldo being the star playing in a CL winning side in 08?
Ronaldo has been by far the better player in the CL, the multi-tweets above cannot be clearer.
Messi is almost 32, you expect him to play till he's 37?
2009/2010 was the first year they started tracking ratings for, thats why i didnt post ratings for the 2008/2009 season when Messi won the CL nor the 2007/2008 that CR7 won.
About the 2006 CL season, Messi did win it, not only did he win it but he was a key member of the squad that year. Check the thread about the analysis that Chelsea FC did on Barcelona before their KO match (which Messi was the star of) and you will see how Chelsea were more scared of Messi than anything else, even prime Ronaldinho. Dont act like he was a squad player.
And yeah i honestly do expect him to be playing at top level in 4-5 years, same for CR7.
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@Peyroteo Juventus just won again. How is it possible without Ronaldo on the pitch? You thought Juve would draw/not score the last game, then they won. Now they win again. How is it possible
@Peyroteo Juventus just won again. How is it possible without Ronaldo on the pitch? You thought Juve would draw/not score the last game, then they won. Now they win again. How is it possible
Jesus, can you actually read? Where did I say they couldn't win or score without Ronaldo?
I simply told you people here should watch Juventus to understand how they play. You got out of that that I thought they couldn't score a goal against Cagliari??? What the actual feck are you on about? I'm the one who's contantly arguing it's beyond stupid to make points on how important they are to their teams out of one off games.
Learn to read and stop making yourself like a complete moron. And stop tagging me, please. Obsess over another poster until you understand english. We can talk when you do.
Can't believe this thread is still up, you Ronaldo fans are stubborn as f..ck. Ronaldo is a great goalscorer. Messi is the best player ever. There's nothing wrong with that. Are you trying to convince us that he is a better player than Maradona, Distefano, Pelé, Cruyff aswell?
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