Maybe 74 is in the discussion, I've literally NEVER heard anyone call Holland 78 one of the best teams ever.
If he never wins another trophy, he'd be remembered as a bottler of highest order after having a few good years at the turn of the decade.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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If he never wins another trophy, he'd be remembered as a bottler of highest order after having a few good years at the turn of the decade.
Wrong that United dominated the EPL prior to Ronaldo arriving? You criticize La Liga yet Barca weren't winning the league nearly as often until Messi arrived. United have the most EPL titles in history, and again, winning 6 titles out of 8, 8 titles in 11 years prior to Ronaldo is dominating making the EPL feel like a one team league as it was United winning almost every year.
United went on to win the league twice after he left and made a CL final.
They're comfortable a tier below the greatest teams of all time for me, that's all. Just like you could say Griezmann is one of the best in the world, I still wouldn't put his name in the same list as Ronaldo and Messi.
Which only proves my point, thanks for that.
What a moronic quote. A guy who has destroyed Ronaldo's teams more than any other in history is a bottler despite winning 4 CL's and having as many trebles as anyone else in history.
Got it. Meanwhile Madrid would constantly bottle the league.
Put things into context, also look into how many teams have done 3x PL compared to La Liga.
When Ronaldo arrived we were no way in the running for the league, in fact in that period there were people calling for Sir Alex's head. Messi has been winning his titles with little competition and playing for one of the greatest club sides of all time. It's not comparable.
Hilarious that you've quoted a time period BEFORE Abramovich came along and Chelsea were considered the dominant side in the league when they broke all kinds of records to win the league in 2004.
Barcelona also won the league in 04-05 when Messi contributed a grand ONE goal, he wouldn't even qualify for a medal under PL rules (no idea if he got one under La Liga rules)
Personally I think they're a better CL side than Barca 09-11, but that's another argument for somewhere else.
With little competition? Is this a joke? He was going up against a team that would blow away EPL teams in Real Madrid. How is that little competition? And again, United went on to win the league twice and go to a CL final.
Ronaldo absolutely deserves credit for United winning the league, but at the end of the day United continued to win the league a few more times without him. Those United teams were stacked.
Bit daft to downplay La Liga when it was dominating the CL. Atletico were no slouch either. Better than the EPL teams who were having a fairly woeful decade compared to what the league used to be.
Who cares about 2005, the FACT is Barcelona's greatest period in their history came when Messi arrived. Even after Iniesta and Xavi left Barca are still racking up the trophies in Spain. The number of times Barca have denied Madrid trophies in Spain is staggering. Messi is a huge part of that.
Trophies won before Lionel Messi's senior debut: Barcelona - 62 Real Madrid - 72 After: Barcelona - 95 Real Madrid - 92
And a could chance it could be 97-92 if Barca win the league and Copa Del Rey.
If he wins nothing from now on, he'd have had a very successful early 20s (22-24), had a bounce in 2015 (28) and a pretty poor end to his career. No?
If someone is wildly successful early in their career and finishes badly, that's exactly what bottlers do.
So is Michael Jordan a bottler? LeBron James? They either cameback or slowed down. And Messi is still winning more trophies per year than Ronaldo to close it out. If Ronaldo never wins CL again is a bottler despite being in a top 4 team in the world? It wasn't like Messi was going trophy-less during this time.
It's like CL or nothing for you, Messi retires today he is still considered the GOAT.
In 15 seasons:
10 La Liga
6 Copa Del Rey (probably 7)
4 Champions Leagues (potentially 5)
AKA a bottler of the highest order after a few good years at the turn of the decade, ladies and gentlemen.
Not worth arguing with the guy - he's on course for 5 straight Copa del Reys but those don't count anymore apparently.
There we go with the false equivalence again, CDR is worth the same as the CL. I have not denied Messi is a key factor to Barca's best period ever, where did I say that? I merely pointed out that he started in a La Liga winning team in 2005, unlike Ronaldo who started at a United side which finished 15 points behind Arsenal in 2004.
Apart for those 3 there is no competition, that's why Barca and Real are scoring 5+ goals almost every week, even Mourinho managed to score 100 goals in that league which says it all. Its a cliché but there arent many easy games in the PL and those massive score lines don't happen that often here .
You were the one who came up with the hypothetical that Messi wins nothing from now on, not me.
If he throws away La Liga this season, it's already one of the biggest bottle jobs ever.
It's the Messi fanatic @Daysleeper that suggested the hypothetical that Messi wins nothing from now on.
Sure, those are the biggest trophies on offer, Real start the season aiming to win CDR and ignore the CL.
There's a reason that Madrid have a relatively poor CDR record compared to Barca even before Messi came onto the stage.
Ronaldo was signed in 03, we did not win the premier league until 06/07. The year we did win it, he was the player of the season and would have won balon dor if not for kaka.I don't disagree with this honestly, which is why I said in the post before that to me Messi is clearly a superior player, but not a more successful player. Whether succes or ability constitutes greatness however, is up for debate.
Di Stefano's Real is still considered above Zidane's by most long timers I talk to.
And you are also missing a lot of sides like Pele's Santos, Peñarol, Clough's Forest, Liverpool, Tele Santana's São Paulo, Cruyff's Dream Team
I think neither Messi nor Ronaldo ever had a more decisive league contribution than RVP in his first season at United honestly. That season was more exciting than Messi and Ronaldo's entire careers combined if you ask me.
You know why? Because I'm biased as feck. It's liberating to admit that you know. pfeeeeeeeeeew
You know why? Because I'm biased as feck. It's liberating to admit that you know. pfeeeeeeeeeew
So you want to change the half/half scarf image to a nologo black scarf?
Since when are barca and Madrid scoring 5 goals every week? Have you even seen the La Liga in recent years? City just walked the league last year. Barca just drew wth villareal. Chelsea or thumped 6-0. There are FAR more lopsided scores this year and last in epl than La Liga. You’re speaking like seone who thinks it’s still 2011 or something. The bottom half of La Liga is much stronger than the bottom half of the EPL. Even teams fighting relegation like villareal are doing very well in Europa
That's the thing about arguing across generations, older people tend to believe everything is better in the good old days, you even have United fans arguing for United 94 v United 08.
That list I posted was by no means supposed to be a complete list, that's why the "etc" at the end. But the point is, all the teams in the argument (the European ones anyway), won the CL.
And again, after he left you won it two more times and went to a CL final.
Sure, those are the biggest trophies on offer, Real start the season aiming to win CDR and ignore the CL.
There's a reason that Madrid have a relatively poor CDR record compared to Barca even before Messi came onto the stage.
Zidane said winning the league is harder than winning CL. Madrid bottled the league a lot but of course those Barca teams were great.
Barca were already winning La Liga before Messi came along, your point is?
Yes? Because the team we had at that point was finally good and we had the best manager of all time.
That has nothing to do with the state we were in before he signed and his role in our first title.
You guys include 2006 in messis cl but are now arguing that Ronaldo had nothing to do with 06/07?
I have not denied Messi is a key factor to Barca's best period ever, where did I say that? I merely pointed out that he started in a La Liga winning team in 2005, unlike Ronaldo who started at a United side which finished 15 points behind Arsenal in 2004.
And prior to 2004 united won 8 of the last 11 EPL titles.
Funny how Zidane talking about the league is to be taken as gospel.
Zidane saying Ronaldo is the best player ever is to be ignored.
Make up your mind.
Did you not read my posts at all?! I said Ronaldo ABSOLUTELY deserves credit for united winning those epl titles. He was obviously their best player.
However, United has been dominating most of the 90’s and early 2000’s before slowing down.
United have historically been an incredible epl side prior to Ronaldo, Barca were up and down through the years before Messi joined. United had won 3 in a row before Ronaldo, Barca went through the greatest period in their history with Messi
I do agree that united weren’t at their complete best when Ronaldo joined of course and he was instrumental in helping them regain their footing. But again, even After he left United continued to win the league and go to an epl final.
Before he managed Ronaldo he was Praising Messi as the best. Same reason why I never quote Pep as saying Messi is the goat.
Less of a bias with zidane and the league since he always wanted
To win it more often than he did.
They had won one La Liga title on the previous 6 (!) when Messi joined
If Ronaldo had stayed at United, we would have gone through our greatest period in the history with him as well.
A club which had the peak years of Maradona and ronaldinho among others would have done just alright without messi.
So your point is basically that messi spent longer at Barca than Ronaldo did at United? No shit sherlock.
Did you even read what he said? He said Ronaldo is the best player in Real Madrid’s history. Big difference
Hahahahaha without Messi Barca would’ve been fine?!
Oh my god, that is amazing.
Ronaldinho fell off a cliff as amazing as he was.
This is the most insane thing I’ve ever read. Barca would’ve been fine without Messi
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