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Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Agreed. It’s like how when you watch Messi’s matches it becomes clear how his spectacular goal count is just a small part of his game. And when you watch Ronaldo’s matches it’s becomes clear how his spectacular goal count is the biggest part of his game.
I like putting the stats into context like that
What spectacular goal count? He's getting outscored by Quagliarella and Juve fans are in awe and would pay for the 100 million all over again for a 34 year old.
If you think Ronaldo's biggest contribution to his teams are the 40 goals a season then you haven't been paying attention.
Oh so now Ronaldo not scoring is something that speaks in his favour too
Scores a lot = ”look how much he scores, best player ever”. Scores a little = ”look how the fans love him despite that, best player ever”.
It’s a bigger part of his contribution than Messi’s.
Oh so now Ronaldo not scoring is something that speaks in his favour too
Scores a lot = ”look how much he scores, best player ever”. Scores a little = ”look how the fans love him despite that, best player ever”.
Bloody hell, that's such a wrong interpretation out of what I said it's geniunely incredible.
How you read what I wrote and got out of it that I believe that scoring few goals is a good thing is beyond my understanding.
Definitely so, this is a sport where 5 goals can be worth more than 50 after all.
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so you'll admit that Ramos was more valuable than Ronaldo in 13/14 then?
Don’t you realize what you just said just builds an even stronger case for Messi?
Müller played in great teams and won everything. Messi played in good to great teams and didn’t win as much. And yet he is almost universally considered to be much better than Müller. What gives?
Now you can either go full principal Skinner and say everyone else is wrong. Or you can admit that your logic is faulty. I think I know where this is heading already.
And then you suggest much of Maradona’s legacy is built on him leading lesser teams to glory. Well, Messi never did that. And yet Messi’s reputation is about on par with Maradona if not greater. What gives?
Personally from the Ronaldo fans logic Frank Lampard must have been 10 times better than Iniesta, when you who consider his goal output. I wonder if other great football player and experts would agree.
Funny part is, Messi matches Ronaldo's goal output overall.
And he's way better as a creative force.
Ronaldo's always been a tier below IMO.
I don't agree with that at all. Ronaldo's goal output in Europe is ridiculous, especially in knockout stages. I used to think Messi was a tier above Ronaldo, but Ronaldo turned into a monster in the CL in recent years which has led me to think of Ronaldo as slightly below Messi and deserves to be considered close to him.
Yeah that me issue is the tiresome issue about this debate. Take away the majority of Ronaldo's goalscoring and he might somewhere like Giggs. Take away Messi's goalscoring and he is still on the greatest playmakers and dribblers of all time.
And that’s with Messi often giving away penalties to teammates and not desperately going for goal number 3 or 4 when Barca is crushing fodder. Unlike what Ronaldo always did at Madrid.
If Messi hadn’t done that he would be clearly ahead. But since he is a bigger person he doesn’t really care too much. Commendable.
The debate about who is the better player overall is settled anyway in any sane person’s mind.
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So you're saying that the one who played in better teams won more... great. I literally told you what I thought of that already. Your supposed counterpoint literally agrees with my whole point
Besides, as I said multiples times, the importance of players to the team matters. Messi was Argentina and Barcelona's star player. Muller wasn't Germany or Bayern's star player. Winning as the leader and overall best player of the team has a much bigger influence on a player's legacy in any sport. If Muller had done what he did with Germany, in Messi's Argentina... he'd get a lot more praise for it, obviously.
Your inability to understand basic logic is impressive.
How the actual feck does saying that Maradona's legacy is largely built on leading lesser teams to glory mean that to be on pair with him you have to do the same? How in the world did you get to that conclusion? Just, how?
Iniesta is better because he outperformed Lampard both internationally and in the Champions League. Not because he destroyed Rayo Vallecano more often than Lampard did to Bolton.
Same way that Ronaldo is better because over the course of their careers he's outperformed Messi both internationally and in the Champions League. And he did it in lesser teams which makes it more impressive.
Lewandowski's reputation of scoring 40 goals per season due to scoring Bayern's 5-0 vs Hertha on a regular basis hasn't done much for his reputation while he keeps underperforming in the Champions League now has it? Who will go down as the better player? Lewandowski or Drogba?
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Has Iniesta really outperformed Lampard in the CL? Lampard has scored way more goals in the CL than Iniesta?
Why does La liga, Premiere League and Seria A not count for anything anymore? Why only CL?
And Ronaldo has not played for lesser teams, not regarding Man Utd and Real Madrid.
Only for portugal you could say that he played for a lesser team internationally, but he did not participate in the final.
Messi has dragged his internationel team which is full of great attacking talent but are terrible managed, have no cohesion and completely shit without Messi to 4 big finals. With a bit more luck he would have won.
No. Not that far away though that's for sure.
Is this a serious question? You're actually trying to draw a paralel between midfielder and forwards and the way players are judged so you can scream about hypocrisy?
They do count. Just a lot less because they're worth a lot less. Their value keeps diminuishing with the economic disparity between clubs growing so much.
Valverde and Allegri will get fired if the CL campaign ends in disaster despite dominating their leagues.
Bullshit he hasn't. He's played in better teams than Messi for 2 or 3 years of his whole damn career.
He did participate in the final. Got injured in the first half. Portugal have played 2 international finals in our entire history, Ronaldo played in both.
Since when is Argentina getting to a Copa America final an achievement?? Especially in years when Brazil are shit... was there literally one single argentinian in the entire world that was content with those tournament results? Comparing Portugal's status in Europe with Argentina's status in South America is just nonsense.
Getting to a Copa America final with Argentina is not in any way a comparable achievement to getting to a Euros final with Portugal.
Besides, Messi has a Copa America pretty much every year these days. They're going to start hosting it monthly if Argentina don't win it by 2020. If they started hosting random Euros during Ronaldo's prime it would have been much appreciated.
How much better?
Messi averaged slightly more assists in the league than Ronaldo. I think on average it's only 4 more assists than Ronaldo per season in their time together in Spain. However, Ronaldo has more assists in the CL. In my opinion the whole - 'light years ahead in terms creativity' (as people keep repeating) - gap is massively overblown!
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Ronaldo has played in far more CL games than Messi
Ronaldo more assissts?
When was the last time Ronaldo made an assist? ... that sounds so unfamilar
When was the last time Ronaldo made an assist? ... that sounds so unfamilar
Peyro and co, please drop it, it's not fun anymore. It's embarrassing, Ronaldo can win this CL but he'll never be as good as Messi.
You can start comparing it from 05/06 or 06/07 -- whenever you feel comfortable or feel like both had become regulars. It will still remain true. For someone touted as light years more creative, it shouldn't even be close, let alone being out-assisted. How do you explain the fact that assists in La Liga don't indicate the gap you guys are constantly trying to sell? In fact, I also remember that between 2009 and 2016 Ronaldo had won more points for RM than Messi for Barca!
It's not fun for you anymore because over the past few years the debate has been turned upside down! Go on YouTube and relax yourself with Ray Hudson commentary on Messi against Rayo Vallecano in Copa del Rey or something, accompanied by some breathing exercises.
Yeah right, this debate it's possible here or in a Real Madrid's forum, and in both the majority would agree that Messi is a much better player, we appreciate your effort, though.
Xavi is light years ahead as a playmaker than Ronaldo yet their assists are comparative. I don’t think you’d put Ronaldo in the same league as Xavi playmaking wise.
Assists is a poor stat to use to measure creativity.
A stat like key passers per game is better, but even that has its flaws.
Just from watching the two, it's obvious who's better at dissecting a defense through their passing. Ronaldo doesn't really have that in his locker compared to some of the all time greats like Messi, Maradona, Pele, etc.
Creativity-wise, they seem to be about equal but opposite.
Messi makes world class deliveries for average movements, creating opportunities. Ronaldo on the other hand, makes world class movements for average deliveries, creating opportunities. Same end result, essentially the same thing; but different methods.
The problem is Ronaldo's is less obvious to spectators, especially watching purely on the tv, so they assume Messi's contribution to be greater. In my opinion, they're about equal.
Messi makes world class deliveries for average movements, creating opportunities. Ronaldo on the other hand, makes world class movements for average deliveries, creating opportunities. Same end result, essentially the same thing; but different methods.
The problem is Ronaldo's is less obvious to spectators, especially watching purely on the tv, so they assume Messi's contribution to be greater. In my opinion, they're about equal.
There we go again with the Messi brigade stating their opinions as facts.
That's a false equivalence if I ever saw one!
Comparing Messi's assists to Ronaldo's is not even remotely the same as comparing Xavi's to Ronaldo's. You're having a mere! Xavi was a central midfielder whose job was to control/dictate/win play. Messi and Ronaldo play in positions where the difference in creativity can be expected to meaningfully translate into difference in assists.
Compare the plays Messi makes compared to Ronaldo’s and it’s not even close. Look up highlights and you’ll see how much better of a playmaker Messi is. And that’s not even a slight to Ronaldo, Messi is by far and away the best playmaker in the world. He makes jaw dropping passes nearly every match.
Assists are such a bad way to measure creativity.
There's simply no stat out there that can objectively quantify the value of the assist itself.
I mean you can pass a ball to a teammate and he lets it rip from 30 odd yards and scores a screamer. You get an assist.
Like, Marcelo's assist for Ronaldo's 3rd against Bayern in 2017. He skips past two players with a surging run and then lays it off to Ronaldo for a tap in. He gets an assist.
Both are measured as an assist, but clearly a vast difference.
How many times does Messi play it through for a teammate in Barcelona for them to scoff the shot? Just recently with Suarez against Betis. Messi puts it on a plate for him, but Suarez misses a relative sitter.
Then there's some sites who measure an assist as a player's shot causing the GK to spill the ball and someone scoring from it.
There's simply no stat out there that can objectively quantify the value of the assist itself.
I mean you can pass a ball to a teammate and he lets it rip from 30 odd yards and scores a screamer. You get an assist.
Like, Marcelo's assist for Ronaldo's 3rd against Bayern in 2017. He skips past two players with a surging run and then lays it off to Ronaldo for a tap in. He gets an assist.
Both are measured as an assist, but clearly a vast difference.
How many times does Messi play it through for a teammate in Barcelona for them to scoff the shot? Just recently with Suarez against Betis. Messi puts it on a plate for him, but Suarez misses a relative sitter.
Then there's some sites who measure an assist as a player's shot causing the GK to spill the ball and someone scoring from it.
To unlock tight defenses, Ronaldo has been a better weapon in the past 4 years or so, just because of his aerial ability.
I feel like Messi was really underwhelming in the decisive games against Juve, Atleti and Roma where Barcelona got knocked off last 3 years. And against Chile he was being defended by underwhelming players and still didn't manage to create any chances. I feel like when he lost his pace 3 years or so ago, its much easier to game plan against him than Ronaldo, and results show. That's just my two cents. He still looks amazing in league games where there isn't that much preparation and nerves.
I feel like Messi was really underwhelming in the decisive games against Juve, Atleti and Roma where Barcelona got knocked off last 3 years. And against Chile he was being defended by underwhelming players and still didn't manage to create any chances. I feel like when he lost his pace 3 years or so ago, its much easier to game plan against him than Ronaldo, and results show. That's just my two cents. He still looks amazing in league games where there isn't that much preparation and nerves.
I see. Do you recommend that with Ray Hudson commentary or not?
Don't base your views on YouTube highlights, or otherwise you're gonna think Ben Arfa is Maradona reincarnate.
Who cares about Ray Hudson? Hell, you saw Messi dismantle Chelsea last year, you know how good he is
You know Chile beat Portugal and Ronaldo last time they played? Chile are superb defensively.
You also know that Atletico stifled Ronaldo twice outside of a late meaningless penalty in 2014 and 2016. Same teams that knocked Messi out.
Against Juventus Messi got multiple goals the following year. The 2017 team allowed the least amount of goals in the tournament before imploding at halftime.
Roma was just bad, no defending that performance from anyone on the squad in the second leg.
You are equating meaningless games to important knockout games, which is the point I originally highlighted. I`m sure in a Confederations Cup game Messi would have taken the piss out of Chile. But it was a final with all the pressure of being scrutinized and stakes were high.
Honestly, since 2015 against Bayern I can't remember a massive knockot game where he performed well against a big team.
You know Argentina without Messi beat Chile in the group stage of the Copa America?
It's all about how pretty the assists are, now how many of them are.
Hence Ronaldo heading the ball at the first post on a corner for someone to poach it in at the second post not really being 'playmaking' due his lack of intention to make an assist on the play.
But then if you mention Ronaldo is a much better header of the ball, they'll say that's just a part of goalscoring despite how many goals it actually causes without him being the scorer, how much trouble it causes to the opponents and the impact it has on the games.
He was superb against Chelsea but again, it’s not just pressure those teams outside of 2017 juventus were stifling Ronaldo as well. Roma again, that was a terrible performance.
And yes, Portugal were trying against Chile. You make it sound like Chile are some farmers team
And Portugal won a euro final without Ronaldo and have gone 7 games without a loss when Ronaldo doesn’t play.
How did Argentina do in WC qualifying when Messi didn’t play?
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