Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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It's not ridiculous at all. This season when Barca are at full strength, Messi plays from the right in a 4-3-3 but is given license to drift into the middle and play as a 10. This is pretty much the exact role Ronaldinho played on the left, although Messi comes deep to get the ball from Busquets/the deepest midfielder more often than Ronaldinho did. Neither are obliged to track back.
http://www.sportbible.com/football/...for-this-season-is-out-of-this-world-20180430
from last season. as I watch him pretty much every time he plays, I'm sure it won't be any different this year.
from last season. as I watch him pretty much every time he plays, I'm sure it won't be any different this year.
This gif pretty much settles this debate.
did you watch Ronaldo when he first joined us? because he was as "technical" as it gets, very attractive to watch and sometimes even too playful for his own sake and no one was even close to him in EPL. he didn't lost any of that, he just adopted different style as he got older. his only problem is that he shares the world with player who scores even more and is more creative, and whose goalscoring output doesn't even require him to jump or even run sometimes. that's where Messi's technical superiority over him gets obvious, but no other active player has that over him, not even Hazard and Neymar. they may appear more attractive to watch due to their tricks which Ronaldo abandoned a while ago, but they certainly aren't "way more" gifted technically.
Would all the Ronaldo fans argue that Pele was in a different stratosphere to Maradonna because of his superior goalscoring and amazing trophy haul, or do they argue that they were about equal because Maradonna was just outrageously gifted and you could tell this by watching him play?
I've watched all of Ronaldo's career and that's bs.
While he was much better on the ball than he is nowadays he still wasn't as good as Hazard and absolutely nowhere near Neymar as far as technique is concerned.
Neymar is way more talented than Cristiano as far as his footballing abilities go, Ronaldo is the better athlete but there's no denying what Neymar does on the ball is on a different level from what even 2004-09 Ronaldo could do.
That's the one question they cant answer. Even if they regard pele as better, ask them who they regard as better, Gerd Muller or Diego? Muller won more trophies, and all the important trophies (Diego didnt win the European cup for example) AND scored many more goals. He was also more decisive in the biggest of games (scored in world cup final AND Euro champs final).
Gerd muller had better stats and was more decisive when it mattered. Who is regarded as better? Acoording to the logic of Cristiano fans, it should be Muller.
He doesn't say it himself. Stop making stuff up.
I'm guessing you clattered the post with all those highlights and meaningless graphics to obscure this?
Also Fabregas played as a striker at some point. That does not mean their positions aren't too dissimilar.
The notion that Laudrup (as well as Maradona, Ronaldinho, and Zidane) played further up the pitch than Messi is absolutely laughable, and yes, deserves:
In the interview the only thing he says about the positions is that he sometimes played as 9, 10, 11, etc..
You show the newspaper's eleven for one game and then say he played one season as a 9 which is not true as he played there only parts of it. So what anyway, none of those things even remotely matter to the fact he did not in any way play as forward as Messi does which is the whole point.
You try to prove a point by exaggerating on things that do not even prove the point you're trying to make. It's very weird.
Again, "The league usual starting eleven", not one game, THE WHOLE SEASON
Laudrup 3170 minutes
Stoichkov 2779 minutes
Goiko 2328 minutes
Our only striker, Salinas 931 minutes.
Now tell me that Stoichkov was clearly our 9 because wingers don't score that much.
http://www.fantasista10.co.uk/cruyff-the-misuse-of-the-number-10/
3-4-3 or 3-1-2-1-3
It wasn't
Begiristain-Amor
----Laudrup-----
Goiko-Bakero-Stoichkov
nor
---Begiristain - Amor---
---Laudrup - Bakero---
Stoichkov----------Goiko
Because that's neither a 342,31212 or a triangle formation
And since the maestro himself says "The ‘number 10′ was the player behind the three forwards. At Ajax I chose John Bosman and later at Barcelona, José Bakero."
What position was Laudrup spending more time in the pitch since he played with Bakero?
A pure winger, a pure 10, or a striker that fell down to help midfielders and moved to the wing, creating superiority and space for Goiko and Stoichkov?
He can’t keep up with Messi? He can’t keep up with Quagliarella apparently... you can’t use your logic to one player only. If you use that logic to say Messi’s a better player, then you have to believe 36 year old Quagliarella is a better player too.
Ronaldo’s statpadding obsession has massively changed, hence all the resting and lack of meaningless goals.
You purposefully avoided to answer the question in bold. I’d like a reply.
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Will do. Natural talent is what you see in a Ricardo Quaresma. Loads of it. Is he a top player? No. The applicability of talent is a different issue. One that requires commitment and effort. Something that Ronaldo has done to the maximum.
I did not say he is a normal player. I said he is a "normal" player. The quotes are important. What I meant by that is that yes ofcourse he was insanely talented but no one saw him as All time GOAT at 18. Whereas there were already talks of Messi being in that bracket even at that age.
Ah yes, the old 'ridiculous' retort. Very original.
Again, "The league usual starting eleven", not one game, THE WHOLE SEASON
Laudrup 3170 minutes
Stoichkov 2779 minutes
Goiko 2328 minutes
Our only striker, Salinas 931 minutes.
Now tell me that Stoichkov was clearly our 9 because wingers don't score that much.
http://www.fantasista10.co.uk/cruyff-the-misuse-of-the-number-10/
3-4-3 or 3-1-2-1-3
It wasn't
Begiristain-Amor
----Laudrup-----
Goiko-Bakero-Stoichkov
nor
---Begiristain - Amor---
---Laudrup - Bakero---
Stoichkov----------Goiko
Because that's neither a 342,31212 or a triangle formation
And since the maestro himself says "The ‘number 10′ was the player behind the three forwards. At Ajax I chose John Bosman and later at Barcelona, José Bakero."
What position was Laudrup spending more time in the pitch since he played with Bakero?
A pure winger, a pure 10, or a striker that fell down to help midfielders and moved to the wing, creating superiority and space for Goiko and Stoichkov?
Now we’re arguing about his positioning in one season which is entirely meaningless to the argument that Messi did not play more forward than Laudrup.
Step 1: Read obvious statement
Step 2: Disagree with obvious statement by showing highly exaggerated or false proof that does not even prove the obvious statement wrong
Step 3: Argue about the highly exaggerated or fake proof instead of the obvious statement
I said Laudrup didn’t play as 9 the whole season which is a fact, he did play as a midfielder plenty of times too and he did play as a forward plenty of times. It wasn’t his natural position throughout his career. Arguing about one season when we’re talking about their whole careers is just beyond irrelevant or stupid.
No. According to your exaggerated logic that ignores plenty of the arguments made, it should be Muller.
Muller had the benefit of playing for much better teams than Maradona. Pele did too. Maradona winning the WC with Argentina the way he did was much more impressive than Muller’s whole international career put together. It’s probably the biggest individual achievement in football history.
Taking into account the teams they played in is crucial, as is when comparing Messi and Ronaldo. If Ronaldo had played with the teams Messi played with and Messi played with the teams Ronaldo played with, Ronaldo scoring more or winning more would be nearly irrelevant as it was something expected. It’s the fact he did it in lesser teams that makes it a lot more relevant.
I’m sure many years from now people will look at the recent Madrid teams and say how did such big underdogs with an incredible midfield win the CL so much?
I’m sure many years from now people will look at the recent Madrid teams and say how did such big underdogs with an incredible midfield win the CL so much?
They'll ask how the incredible midfield got humiliated by Ajax instead, right?
4 in 5 years... Damn fecking right they will ask how they won as much as they did. I watched it happen and I still can't believe they did it.
The best midfield in football history didn't do it, did they?
Ronaldo is on pace to have his worst CL campaign in years, so he can get all the excuses he wants now right?
There is no one Madrid to finish the chances, they'll be better than Juventus next year after they get some finishers.
You're making it sound like it was Bournemouth who won all those CL's.
Zidane deserves a lot of credit as well.
I never said better player - I said he can't keep up with Messi's goal output which is a fact. He is also being outscored by a 36 year old who plays for a team in 9th (also has a worse minute to goal ratio than him, Piatek and Milik) - that is a fact. That's the only logic I'm using here.
What is there to justify? Ronaldo is a great player and has scored loads of hattricks against good teams and weak teams alike, but you're mad if you think he is deliberately trying not to score hattricks against the weaker teams.
To be fair to Ronaldo, it's not his fault Juve play as negative as they do. If you put him in a City shirt, he'd likely be leading the PL goal table.
Well Juventus have scored more goals than any other team in Serie A so while it may be harsh to compare him to Messi, it's more than fair to expect him to do better than the elite company of Quagliarella, Piatek and Milik - especially considering how dominant Juve are.
I don't think he tries to score less goals on purpose for fecks sake. I just think he doesn't care about it and he's on the pitch to win trophies, not to improve his goal stats. If Madrid were 2-0 up and he hadn't scored, he used to work his ass off to get his goal, nowadays if Juve is winning he doesn't really care. Which is a lot different from how he used to be.
Second time you avoid the question so I'll quote myself again.
For the third time, please answer. Saying my justification for it is wrong when you avoid giving one of your own is silly.
Ronaldo could have an historically great CL campaign and it could still end up being his worst CL campaign in years.
Should have banged in a hattrick vs Young Boys to make you happy
He's been excellent in the Champions League. Watch the games.
Want to bet on who goes further in the Champions League next season?
No, I'm making it sound that a team who without Ronaldo got humiliated in the round of 16 of the Champions League by Ajax won 4 Champions Leagues in 5 years in what's up there as the greatest club achievement in football history.
If you have a very good team and you go on to achieve something like that, you've still overperformed. You don't need to be a shit team to be able to overperform.
He does, I've always said it. Let's see how he gets on in the next few years though
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This was my answer to that;
But I'll go further and say that a sample size of two games isn't enough to become a trend, if Ronaldo was happy to 'statpad' against weaker teams in Madrid then I don't think his attitude is going to drastically change at Juventus - we're talking about Cristiano Ronaldo here, there isn't another player on the planet that wants goals, however they come, as much as him. Do you really think the likes of Piatek and Quagliarella want goals more than him? And that's enough to bridge the 15+ point chasm between the teams they play for?
It's simply your mental gymnastics because you're finding it hard to comprehend that the likes of Quagliarella, Piatek and Milik, while playing for inferior teams are scoring at a better rate than Ronaldo.
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EDIT: I've run out of posts for the day, but I've answered your question thoroughly enough above - in my opinion you just don't like the answer because it's a difficult truth to swallow and you're making an issue of me 'not answering it' (while not quoting my whole message) to deflect from it.
Why don't you just tell me why Ronaldo has been scoring goals in some big games but scoring fewer in random league games and how that justifies him being outscored by Quagliarella etc then?
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That literally does not answer the question... answer the damn question for fecks sake. Stop arguing about how wrong my justification is and give one of your own.
Saying that he scores against great and small teams alike it's clearly not true. His performances clearly vary a lot depending on who the opponent is. He's one of the only players I've seen whose worse games regularly come at the less important games and the best games come atthe most important moments. It's not one or two games either, it's seasons of this now.
His worst games of the season come in random league games against the lower teams and his best games of the season come in the CL knockouts when his team needs it the most. So far this season his worst games came against Chievo and Young Boys and his best games came against Napoli and Atletico. So for the fourth time, why does this happen? Please for the love of God actually answer the question.
Mental gymnastics is thinking Quagliarella scoring more goals in a worse team makes him a more prolific goalscorer and that if Ronaldo had been scoring tonight vs Empoli or two weeks ago vs Genoa in meaningless games it would have mattered to how you rate him as a goalscorer.
Ronaldo is a poacher who is getting outscored by 36 year old Quagliarella, he doesn't add much outside of the box. So why does your stupid view of the sport only apply on Ronaldo and Messi and you're not here right now arguing Quagliarella is a better footballer than Ronaldo??? Is Paco Alcacer not a better goalscorer too? What about Mbappe and 20 other players.
Does he need to go the rest of the season doing feck all in Serie A while scoring in every remaining CL match, end up with less goals than Piatek, Quagliarella, Alcacer, Aguero, etc.. be the 40th best player in the world by the stats sheet and end up with a Champions League title for it?
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People in this thread need to watch the Juventus-Empoli game that's on right now
Juve won
If you took away Ronaldo's goal scoring, he would still be a very good player, but not one of the greats of the game. If you took away Messi's goalscoring, he would still be one of the greats of the game. That's the prime difference for me. But yeah Ronaldo has more goals in the knockout stages of CL than Messi apart from that he has no advantage imo.
This is what’s really incomprehensible to the Ronaldo fanboys and really shatters their world view. It’s like a bomb of cognitive dissonance going off in their heads because they can’t reconcile it. And all that comes out the other end is profanity filled tirades to the effect of ”no u”. Deflect, deflect, deflect just like Trump.
Oh you mean the one Juventus won?
12-4 in shots.Meanwhile Messi just dismantled Espanyol with 2 brilliant goals.
I did, Juve were terrible but not sure how Ronaldo would have improved their midfield play today. I've seen many of their games like today with Ronaldo there too
I know. That was a regular match for them.
wait, how do you mean watch? I thought eye-test isn't a legit argument anymore
Of course it is, you have to understand what's going on to get a good conclusion out of it though
Oh you mean the one Juventus won?
Meanwhile Messi just dismantled Espanyol with 2 brilliant goals.
See? You have to watch the games. Brilliant Juve. 12-4 in shots
Jesus Christ.
What are the odds on Messi scoring a brace or hattrick in every irrelevant La Liga match remaining before going out to United or Liverpool without scoring once?
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See? You have to watch the games. Brilliant Juve. 12-4 in shots
I thought numbers and stats were the most important thing, not watching
May you be right!See? You have to watch the games. Brilliant Juve. 12-4 in shots
Jesus Christ.
What are the odds on Messi scoring a brace or hattrick in every irrelevant La Liga match remaining before going out to United or Liverpool without scoring once?
See? You have to watch the games. Brilliant Juve. 12-4 in shots
Jesus Christ.
What are the odds on Messi scoring a brace or hattrick in every irrelevant La Liga match remaining before going out to United or Liverpool without scoring once?
He’ll score against United
Juve will lose to City
I thought numbers and stats were the most important thing, not watching
Numbers and stats (goals and assists) do have value in the right context. If you don't watch or understand the games then you can't put them into context. That's always what I argued.
So far Messi's had a better season than Ronaldo, no doubt about that in any way. It's his best season since 2014/15.
I translate: they have value if they fancy Ronaldo, they don't if they fancy Messi.
Also think he'll do well against United, that defense is not good enough and despite the very good results under Ole the results have been favourable.
Juve against City would need to win with 20% possession but it is what it is.
I translate: I can't read
I think City will really struggle with Ronaldo in the air. I also wonder how they'll fare against Juve's defense. Their workrate in that second leg against Atletico was fantastic.
The midfield will obviously be an issue.
I like Barca's chances against United but should they play Liverpool I really worry about Liverpool's counter attacks. I'm still not 100% sold on Barca defensively.
Agreed. It’s like how when you watch Messi’s matches it becomes clear how his spectacular goal count is just a small part of his game. And when you watch Ronaldo’s matches it becomes clear how his spectacular goal count is the biggest part of his game.
I like putting the stats into context like that
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