Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Ishdalar]

How can you just post some random graphs without even checking? You can laugh as much as you want at @Peyroteo but he is spot on with this graph. It's a BS graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys with no sources, posted on twitter and then on multiple forums.

It says Messi averages 6 through passes per game, that's BS. He averages 1.1 through passes per game.
Di Maria is showed as 3.5 through balls per game, he averages 0.2 per game, Verratti averages 0.5 per game.

Forget Messi or any individual player, no team makes 6 through passes per game. PSG plays the highest in top 5 leagues with 5 through passes per game.
Barcelona - 4
Chelsea - 4
City - 3
Liverpool - 3
Lyon - 3
Napoli - 2
Inter - 2
Madrid - 2
Atletico 2
Espanyol - 2
Spurs - 2
Arsenal - 2
ManUtd - 2
West Ham - 2
Leicester - 2
Bournemouth - 2
Wolves - 2
Dortmund - 2
Frankfurt - 2
Marseille - 2
Lille - 2

This is like dealing with fake news all day. Someone posts some random graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys, some other Messi fan comes up with how City were best team in 2014-15 when they were closer to Arsenal than Chelsea (Who were champions) and struggled even in group stage, some other Messi fan comes up with how Madrid had best midfield 3 when one of the player was out on loan at Porto and other 2 played together for just 19 out of 59 games.

fecking hell, you guys don't have to come up with so much BS to say Messi is GOAT. There are few people who prefer different things in football, some like "clutch player", some prefers best goal scorer in best club competition and some prefer all round package and how good player is on the ball.

For me Messi is GOAT and there is no player like him, he is just the ultimate combination of multiple players. Doesn't mean we have to be insecure and start believing fake news and stats.

You're right, I ate that one hook line and sinker, even with the explanation by the author about through passes it's fishy as hell, I just saw a graph that showed what I don't see any other player do, beat lines of defenders with long passes to the wings and extrapolated all of those stats where "through passes".

They get past Ajax and it's going to be the 12th CL semifinal he gets to in 13 years. In this period, Madrid didn't get to one semifinal without him, United got to one semifinal without him and Juve got to 2 semifinals without him. You'll still have people pretending it's easy to get there or that it's all luck and teammates bailing him out. Not every player can have the luxury of having the best set of teammates in the history of the sport that give him the best possible platform to dominate european football... but somehow it's Ronaldo that had the luxury of Ramos and Bale bailing him out rather than Ramos and Bale having had the luxury of playing with a player like Ronaldo who puts them in those situations to start with.

It's funny, because when I used this point in the La Liga thread to explain to you why I considered Alba overrated and Abidal better than him, citing UCL semifinals apparitions with both Abidal and Alba, and even videos of Alba's mistakes costing us goals in the legs we got eliminated, you never replied.

But now you're using that same point as an absolute rule of thumb. In your context we could even say that the difference between United winning leagues or not even qualifying for UCL is just due to them lacking Ronaldo.

United reached QF, Final, Group stage, R16 and QF the next years after Ronaldo left, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st in the league and then the apocalypse. Why didn't they totally sink the next two or four years after his departure? His ghost and winning mentality carried them for a couple extra seasons?

 

[Ishdalar]

Man take this mental gymnastics with someone else. Ronaldo leaving ManUtd has nothing to do with ManUtd declining or lacking ambition. At that time (When he wanted to leave in 2008) Ferdinand was 30, Vidic was 27, Evra - 27, Carrick probably around 26, Rooney and Tevez in early-mid 20s.

He left because he won everything at ManUtd and wanted to join Madrid as that was his dream club. ManUtd spent big in 2007-08 and that season Ronaldo wanted to leave.

I don't give a shit about why he left Madrid, at ManUtd it had nothing to do with predicting decline.

I don't need mental gymnastics, I talk about probable signs of decline when he left, you when "he wanted to leave". I talk about the old guard of Scholes, Giggs, Van der Sar and yes even Ferdinand a 190cm athletic CB that would be 31 y/o two months into the 09/10 season, add some dubious signings, and a legendary manager whos thinking about retirement and you can't dismiss that as a reason.

I'm not talking about a meltdown, history has been harsh with that team as they were in a great position to be the first one to win the UCL back to back, dominating the hardest league in the world and finish an "alternative" treble swapping the FA cup for League cup but they lost and passed the torch to a historic juggernaut. But you could see that some of the players of that generation were going, even if it was a decline from best team in the world to top 4, it's still a decline, same as Barcelona declined after 2011, as ridiculous as our titles have been since then.

And again, he MIGHT have wanted more to play for Real than United, MIGHT have earned more money, MIGHT have liked life in Madrid more than in Manchester, all those things being more important than the future of United don't invalidate that when he looked at his future in Manchester, it didn't look like he'd have the 2006-2009 team for 10 more years.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

So we should ignore quarters and semis to support your case ? Ronaldo in CL has been absolutely monster bar when he was injured. Cant say same about Messi ? He prefers likes of Real Betis

According to them you should ignore ALL good games Ronaldo had and only consider the bad ones. And then compare those with the few good ones their goat had(like back in 2009s and 11s). If Ronaldo didn't score after QFs last year, all goals scored in previous editions go down the drain. But that logic doesn't apply to Messi. His 2009,11,15 performances are now gold standard and only they will be discussed.

Reading their posts makes you think that Messi has been doing wonders in the CL whereas Ronaldo was just being dragged by his team.

 

[roonster09]

I don't need mental gymnastics, I talk about probable signs of decline when he left, you when "he wanted to leave". I talk about the old guard of Scholes, Giggs, Van der Sar and yes even Ferdinand a 190cm athletic CB that would be 31 y/o two months into the 09/10 season, add some dubious signings, and a legendary manager whos thinking about retirement and you can't dismiss that as a reason.

I'm not talking about a meltdown, history has been harsh with that team as they were in a great position to be the first one to win the UCL back to back, dominating the hardest league in the world and finish an "alternative" treble swapping the FA cup for League cup but they lost and passed the torch to a historic juggernaut. But you could see that some of the players of that generation were going, even if it was a decline from best team in the world to top 4, it's still a decline, same as Barcelona declined after 2011, as ridiculous as our titles have been since then.

And again, he MIGHT have wanted more to play for Real than United, MIGHT have earned more money, MIGHT have liked life in Madrid more than in Manchester, all those things being more important than the future of United don't invalidate that when he looked at his future in Manchester, it didn't look like he'd have the 2006-2009 team for 10 more years.

Ferdinand was 29 when we won CL and he would have been 30 in 2008-09 season, Ronaldo wanted to leave in 2008 summer, at that point Rio was 20. Vidic was 26, Evra 26. Giggs was already playing a sub role. Rooney was 21, Tevez - 23, Anderson who was very highly rated and had good first season was 19, Nani was 20. We had superb squad with very good mixture of Young and experienced players.

When Ronaldo wanted to leave, Manutd was not on decline and nothing to do with owners who spent big money in that summer. Funny how Messi fan boys twist everything, fecking hell you guys are so tiresome

Ronaldo in 2006

The 21-year-old has been criticised in England for his role in the sending off of United team-mate Wayne Rooney when Portugal beat England in the World Cup.

"I should get out of Manchester as the circumstances are not right," he said.

"Nobody stood up for me and my desire is to play in Spain. Will it be Real or Barcelona? It will be one of them."

Ronaldo claimed: "For some time I haven't had any support from my chief executive (David Gill) or my coach (Sir Alex Ferguson). They should have come out in my defence but no-one did.

"I am calm, I know I have done a good job and I've grown a lot in this World Cup, from a physical point of view and a mental one. In the next few seasons I will be even better."

 

[Peyroteo]

You're right, I ate that one hook line and sinker, even with the explanation by the author about through passes it's fishy as hell, I just saw a graph that showed what I don't see any other player do, beat lines of defenders with long passes to the wings and extrapolated all of those stats where "through passes".




It's funny, because when I used this point in the La Liga thread to explain to you why I considered Alba overrated and Abidal better than him, citing UCL semifinals apparitions with both Abidal and Alba, and even videos of Alba's mistakes costing us goals in the legs we got eliminated, you never replied.

But now you're using that same point as an absolute rule of thumb. In your context we could even say that the difference between United winning leagues or not even qualifying for UCL is just due to them lacking Ronaldo.

United reached QF, Final, Group stage, R16 and QF the next years after Ronaldo left, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st in the league and then the apocalypse. Why didn't they totally sink the next two or four years after his departure? His ghost and winning mentality carried them for a couple extra seasons?

They were half the team after he left, the league just got a lot worse overall. Arsenal were at their best in 2007/08, Liverpool were at their best in 2008/09 and Chelsea were great then. The Premier League stopped being the best league in the world shortly after that.

If Barcelona go to shit then I’m sure Madrid will start winning league titles too, doesn’t mean they’ll be anywhere near the team they used to be.

United were coming off 3 straight semifinals, 2 straight finals and the only good performance in the CL after that came with the easiest draw they could have wished for. They got knocked out in the group stages by Basel and Benfica 6 months after getting to the final, that was far from being a great team.

Alba is worse defensively than Abidal, he’s twice the player and he’s the best fullback in the world by an incredible margin. Noone is even remotely close. Abidal got to more semifinals because he had a better team around him, nothing to do with him.

 

[Hemant]

Funny because Messi torments Ronaldo and Madrid time and time again but you conveniently ignore that. Ronaldo has the same number of goals as Messi last year after the QF in CL, how much of a beast was he then?

Am not ignoring that but CL is gold standard ( than epl,la liga etc) and rightly so and Ronaldo has been far superior in it than Messi in last 6/7 years.


It’s you who is changing the yardsticks so often from team mates helping Ronaldo in winning to opposition missing penalties to only finals matters and now to 2011 SF leg at bernebau. Look how hard you trying to downplay Ronaldo and that’s where am convinced he is better.

And by the way stop shitposting that Messi torments Real Madrid time and again as if Ronaldo did feck all against Barca . I am not one to pick out 1 match/goals like you seems to glued to that 2011 SF but didn’t Ronaldo set record for scoring in consecutive clasicos ? Also more goals in camp nou than At home. bullet header to win Copa,that goal from Ozil pass also goal to floor down pique but that’s not even my point in deciding Ronaldo better .

 

[Daysleeper]

Again, I am not talking who's team helped whom. I am talking about the individual impact like those two posters are talking about. They keep changing the goalposts. First they will criticize him not for scoring in finals disregarding his performances in other KO rounds. But when it comes to Messi, they will quote SFs.

Yes, Messi's performances were in a different league. But I have seen them from Ronaldo too. 3 goals in Turin(twice), hattrick against Atletico, hattrick against Wolfsburg when his team was 2-0 down in aggregate, hattrick against Sweden to take Portugal to the WC were few of his finest performances matched by nobody.

I don't really think barca fans can appreciate those performances because they didn't include dribbling and silky flicks and touches. They included raw pace and power which I along with others appreciate a lot.

Am not ignoring that but CL is gold standard ( than epl,la liga etc) and rightly so and Ronaldo has been far superior in it than Messi in last 6/7 years.


It’s you who is changing the yardsticks so often from team mates helping Ronaldo in winning to opposition missing penalties to only finals matters and now to 2011 SF leg at bernebau. Look how hard you trying to downplay Ronaldo and that’s where am convinced he is better.

And by the way stop shitposting that Messi torments Real Madrid time and again as if Ronaldo did feck all against Barca . I am not one to pick out 1 match/goals like you seems to glued to that 2011 SF but didn’t Ronaldo set record for scoring in consecutive clasicos ? Also more goals in camp nou than At home. bullet header to win Copa,that goal from Ozil pass also goal to floor down pique but that’s not even my point in deciding Ronaldo better .

Messi's moments of tormenting Madrid vs Ronaldo tormenting Barca aren't even close. Messi has had TONS of iconic moments vs Madrid with Ronaldo on the pitch. Messi literally had the entire madrid team face down on the floor after scoring in injury time 2 years ago. Never seen Ronaldo do anything close to that.

And Messi also has more goals at the Bernebeau than at home, it's even meme'd how the bernebeau is barca's training ground.

 

[Cal?]

The Messi fans now want to talk about the CL SF 2011? The one that Alves went down like he was shot despite not getting touched by Pepe?

 

[Ishdalar]

They were half the team after he left, the league just got a lot worse overall. Arsenal were at their best in 2007/08, Liverpool were at their best in 2008/09 and Chelsea were great then. The Premier League stopped being the best league in the world shortly after that.

If Barcelona go to shit then I’m sure Madrid will start winning league titles too, doesn’t mean they’ll be anywhere near the team they used to be.

United were coming off 3 straight semifinals, 2 straight finals and the only good performance in the CL after that came with the easiest draw they could have wished for. They got knocked out in the group stages by Basel and Benfica 6 months after getting to the final, that was far from being a great team.

Alba is worse defensively than Abidal, he’s twice the player and he’s the best fullback in the world by an incredible margin. Noone is even remotely close. Abidal got to more semifinals because he had a better team around him, nothing to do with him.

Peak levels of obtuse.

"Manchester United advanced to the final due to a easy draw" (Marseille, Chelsea, Schalke).
"Ronaldo carried them to 3 straight semifinals" (Lille and Roma, Lyon and Roma, Inter and Porto).

You play the card of Barcelona having the best team in the world every year, basically every season since 2008, so tell me, is the best fullback in the world by an incredible margin being held back by the best team in the world?. Or are you just spreading nonsense to say that Messi is the player letting down the best team in the world and the best fullback ever?.

- Alba doesn't have the success of Abidal because Barcelona are a worse team.
- But Barcelona are the best team in the world, even better than the team that has won 4 UCL in the past 5 years.
- And Alba is the best fullback in the world, he can even cross better than anyone, but he's not allowed.
- Why isn't the best team in the world winning the UCL? Why is Alba wasting parts of his skillset not putting a simple high cross for Barcelona?.

Because Messi is holding them all hostages and making the team one-dimensional, of course!.


Also, I love that you've basically have concedeed that easy draws make achievements less important, can't wait to remind you of your own words the next time you mention the Euro 2016

 

[TambourineMan]

The Messi fans now want to talk about the CL SF 2011? The one that Alves went down like he was shot despite not getting touched by Pepe?

Yeah, the same one where Messi dominated a Classico on enemy territory the way Ronaldo never has. That one.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Interesting website with stats on both players, also an added poll down the bottom of the page with over 700k votes. Probably been posted before but not going trawl through 300 plus pages.

Just think we are lucky to have 2 great players to watch pushing each other to new records.

http://messivsronaldo.net/

 

[Peyroteo]

Peak levels of obtuse.

"Manchester United advanced to the final due to a easy draw" (Marseille, Chelsea, Schalke).
"Ronaldo carried them to 3 straight semifinals" (Lille and Roma, Lyon and Roma, Inter and Porto).

Those were 3 tougher draws, what's your point? Milan, Barcelona and Arsenal in the semis

My point is that they obviously weren't anywhere near as good of a team after Ronaldo left, you can spin shit whatever way you want it but it's a fact.

It's honestly unbelievable the different amount of ways you can turn your arguments and straight up lie about what I said in the process. I don't believe you to be a stupid guy or not be able to read, so it's just pure propaganda and straight up lying. It's bonkers.

You play the card of Barcelona having the best team in the world every year, basically every season since 2008, so tell me, is the best fullback in the world by an incredible margin being held back by the best team in the world?. Or are you just spreading nonsense to say that Messi is the player letting down the best team in the world and the best fullback ever?.

Can you read????

Tell me once where I said Barcelona had the best team in the world since 2016. ONE TIME. Once, please. Seriously, one fecking time.

Such a shameless liar it's incredible. 385 pages to look for, show me one time I said that please.

Besides, what I said was Abidal played in a much better team than Alba. Which would be the truth even if Barcelona were the best team in the world since Abidal played for the best team in the history of the sport.

So not only did you completely lie about what I said, you completely made up a lie that didn't even invalidate the argument in the first place.

Truly remarkable. Not only that, but you did it 3 lines after calling me obtuse. There should be some sort of award for how bad that was.

- Alba doesn't have the success of Abidal because Barcelona are a worse team. TRUE
- But Barcelona are the best team in the world, even better than the team that has won 4 UCL in the past 5 years. Never said Barcelona were the best team in the world, stop lying. Also, the best squad doesn't always win the competition, are you new to football?
- And Alba is the best fullback in the world, he can even cross better than anyone, but he's not allowed. Never said he could cross better than anyone, stop lying. Never said he didn't do it often because he wasn't allowed, stop lying. And yes, Jordi Alba is the best fullback in the world by a fecking mile... are you seriously arguing that btw?
- Why isn't the best team in the world winning the UCL? Again, I never said Barcelona were the best team in the world. Not once. And news flash, the best team squad doesn't always win cup competitions.
Why is Alba wasting parts of his skillset not putting a simple high cross for Barcelona? Because they don't have the players to play a crossing game effectively, as you yourself literally said a couple of posts ago

Because Messi is holding them all hostages and making the team one-dimensional, of course!. Again, never said this. How many times are you going to completely make up what I say? It's a lot easier to reply to an argument when you can make up what the other person is saying isn't it? Learn to read.

Also, I love that you've basically have concedeed that easy draws make achievements less important, can't wait to remind you of your own words the next time you mention the Euro 2016

And to finish it off... where did I fecking say easier draws made achievements less important? Where? Show me, please. Quote it and reply to me. This is honestly impossible...

I said that United making the final in 2011 was not a reflection of their actual quality and that getting knocked out in the group stages 6 months later by Benfica and Basel was a sign of it. They only got 80 points int he league too.

Us winning the Euros wasn't an honest reflection of our quality either. No fecking shit mate. Getting by with an easier draw is in no way a lesser achievement despite your best attempts to completely manufacture what I had said. A title is a title, Serie A titles in the past few years don't count less now than they did in the 90s when they were the best league in the world. Leicester's title doesn't count less because the other top teams were shite.

Now you and Zehner will reply to that saying I'm the one chatting shit for correcting you rather than having the decency of admitting just how embarassing and fictional that comment was.

Can't be bothered doing this over again, so if you keep doing this I'll start applying that same logic to my comments. When you say 'Marcelo was a great player', I'll argue against 'Marcelo is the son of God Almighty and he was better goalscorer than Van Basten', when you say 'Modric was the best midfielder in the world', I'll argue against 'Modric was better than Maradona and Pelé combined' and so on.

 

[Zehner]

Yeah, the same one where Messi dominated a Classico on enemy territory the way Ronaldo never has. That one.

By now I honestly think he doesn't see such stuff. Everything's just pointless dribbling and passing if they didn't directly lead to a goal in his world. Let him watch two games, one in which Messi scored two goals and did nothing else and then a second in which he also scored two goals but dribbles and creates like a freak and he'd rate both games exactly the same.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah, the same one where Messi dominated a Classico on enemy territory the way Ronaldo never has. That one.

The one where Barcelona once again benefited from refereeing error to play against 10 men. Wonderful.

 

[Peyroteo]

Yeah, the same one where Messi dominated a Classico on enemy territory the way Ronaldo never has. That one.

10 times easier to dominate a Clasico when you're in the best team in the history of the sport playing against a 10 men Real Madrid with Lass Diarra, Alvaro Arbeloa and Raul Albiol than the other way around though isn't it? Only one of them got that opportunity though...

The fact that so many people choose to ignore that very slight difference in circumstances between Messi and Ronaldo says it all really.

Pepe got sent off after 60 minutes when it was 0-0, the teams for the first leg:

Real Madrid XI: Casillas; Arbeloa, Ramos, Albiol, Marcelo; Pepe, Alonso, Diarra; Ozil, Di Maria, Ronaldo
Barcelona XI: Valdes; Dani Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Puyol; Busquets, Xavi, Keita; Pedro, David Villa, Messi

Second Leg

Real Madrid XI: Casillas; Arbeloa, Carvalho, Albiol, Marcelo; Alonso, Diarra, Kaka; Di Maria, Ronaldo, Higuain
Barcelona XI: Valdes; Dani Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Puyol; Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta; Pedro, David Villa, Messi

I mean, what the feck was anyone expecting? Switch the teams for both of them and what do you think happens? Losing 3-1 on aggregate with the referee decisions that happened wasn't bad.

 

[Daysleeper]

The one where Barcelona once again benefited from refereeing error to play against 10 men. Wonderful.

Right, and we will conveniently ignore all the offside goals Madrid benefited from during their CL runs

 

[Daysleeper]

Messi’s goal destroying Madrid in the CL sf was all him. The team was amazing, but he went the entire half of the pitch by himself essentially.

 

[mdvmia]

The one where Barcelona once again benefited from refereeing error to play against 10 men. Wonderful.

Despite all the clear refereeing errors Ronaldo has benefited from in recent years, you still have no shame in whining about a decision that Pierluigi Collina even admitted was a clear red card.

But then agaim, why should we take the opinion of the best referee ever when we can just ask Madrid/Ronaldo fanboys for their verdict?

https://elpais.com/deportes/2012/06/07/eurocopa_futbol/1339101528_950651.html

Collina, entre las risas, tuvo que poner orden. “Tienen un mes para seguir discutiendo el tema, estoy aquí para explicarles por qué esto era y es tarjeta roja”

 

[Zehner]

Now you and Zehner will reply to that saying I'm the one chatting shit for correcting you rather than having the decency of admitting just how embarassing and fictional that comment was.

Nah buddy, discussing with you is almost as if you're in front of a court in which every word you chose gets picked apart by some hairsplitting attorney.
As soon as someone points that out you switch to your lawyer mode, not arguing about the actual message he wanted to make but about whether you said that exact thing, used this wording or whatever in posts as long as a novel (funny btw that you just recently criticized this one guy for the exact same thing). His point was that you are applying double standards and I couldn't agree more, honestly.

I mean, with you it's always the same. Say one negative word about a team mate of Messi and be ready for buckets of laughing smileys Peyroteo throws on you from the fence he immediately climbs on as soon as he spots criticism of an Argentinian or Barcelona player. Yet here you talking down so many Madrid players. You say trophies won are important and that the last 5 games of the CL are what matters but yet you say that Alba is better than Marcelo, Rakitic is better than Kroos and so forth. You constantly mention the great players Messi was surrounded by throughout his career and simultaneously point out that he hasn't won enough with such strong squads both internationally and for his club. So why doesn't this apply to Busquets, Pique, Suarez, Neymar, Alba and all those great players he played with? How can they be so great if they haven't really won much themselves after Pep left? If winning, trophies and being clutch is so important to you, it should be a no brainer that Madrid's squad was much better than Barca's over the last 6 years.

Your evaluation criteria differ so fecking much it is actually insane. There's no consistency how you weigh them whatsoever. The only consistency you can make out is that every analysis of yours ends with a conclusion that favours Cristiano. And that's where we differ. Ishdalar and me may very well be wrong, but we rate players based on the criteria we find the most important and we apply them on every single one of them. We like Messi because of these criteria. Maybe we are romantics, aesthetics or whatever you want to call that, I don't think so but it could be true. But at least we are consistent. With you, the conclusion is predetermined, you are just searching for an explanation to justify it and if this requires a shift of the weighting, so be it.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Ronaldo's iconic moments, such as his bicycle kick vs. Juve or his rocket shot vs. Porto are great but we've seen average players do similar things, Messi's goal vs. Real Madrid where he dribbled through the centre of the pitch is a goal only he could score against an elite team in the CL. His games against Man City and Bayern in 2015 are a level of all round performance which Ronaldo will never be able to reach.

 

[Cal?]

Messi’s goal destroying Madrid in the CL sf was all him. The team was amazing, but he went the entire half of the pitch by himself essentially.

If you somehow fail to see how Pepe's incorrect red card left all the space for Messi to run through, there's no point arguing about it.

There's a reason why Messi failed to score in the first 150 minutes of the tie.

 

[TambourineMan]

10 times easier to dominate a Clasico when you're in the best team in the history of the sport playing against a 10 men Real Madrid with Lass Diarra, Alvaro Arbeloa and Raul Albiol than the other way around though isn't it? Only one of them got that opportunity though...

The fact that so many people choose to ignore that very slight difference in circumstances between Messi and Ronaldo says it all really.

Pepe got sent off after 60 minutes when it was 0-0, the teams for the first leg:

Real Madrid XI: Casillas; Arbeloa, Ramos, Albiol, Marcelo; Pepe, Alonso, Diarra; Ozil, Di Maria, Ronaldo
Barcelona XI: Valdes; Dani Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Puyol; Busquets, Xavi, Keita; Pedro, David Villa, Messi

Second Leg

Real Madrid XI: Casillas; Arbeloa, Carvalho, Albiol, Marcelo; Alonso, Diarra, Kaka; Di Maria, Ronaldo, Higuain
Barcelona XI: Valdes; Dani Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Puyol; Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta; Pedro, David Villa, Messi

I mean, what the feck was anyone expecting? Switch the teams for both of them and what do you think happens? Losing 3-1 on aggregate with the referee decisions that happened wasn't bad.

Barcelona do out team Madrid there but Madrid also out-teamed every opponent they have faced in the CL across their three wins. Should we discount his performances in all of these games as well?

The fact is when Messi has faced Ronaldo he has gotten the better of him almost every time and very often in spectacular fashion - hat-tricks, solo goals, ridiculous assists etc. If Ronaldo could have hit the same heights Messi hit in those games maybe Madrid wouldn't have such an embarrassing record against their biggest rivals.

 

[Daysleeper]

If you somehow fail to see how Pepe's incorrect red card left all the space for Messi to run through, there's no point arguing about it.

There's a reason why Messi failed to score in the first 150 minutes of the tie.

Pepe has been in the background of many many Messi goals

Messi still had to go one on 6 for that goal. Like Swiss cheese

 

[Peyroteo]

Nah buddy, discussing with you is almost as if you're in front of a court in which every word you chose gets picked apart by some hairsplitting attorney.
As soon as someone points that out you switch to your lawyer mode, not arguing about the actual message he wanted to make but about whether you said that exact thing, used this wording or whatever in posts as long as a novel (funny btw that you just recently criticized this one guy for the exact same thing). His point was that you are applying double standards and I couldn't agree more, honestly.

I mean, with you it's always the same. Say one negative word about a team mate of Messi and be ready for buckets of laughing smileys Peyroteo throws on you from the fence he immediately climbs on as soon as he spots criticism of an Argentinian or Barcelona player. Yet here you talking down so many Madrid players. You say trophies won are important and that the last 5 games of the CL are what matters but yet you say that Alba is better than Marcelo, Rakitic is better than Kroos and so forth. You constantly mention the great players Messi was surrounded by throughout his career and simultaneously point out that he hasn't won enough with such strong squads both internationally and for his club. So why doesn't this apply to Busquets, Pique, Suarez, Neymar, Alba and all those great players he played with? How can they be so great if they haven't really won much themselves after Pep left? If winning, trophies and being clutch is so important to you, it should be a no brainer that Madrid's squad was much better than Barca's over the last 6 years.

Right... you and him blatantly lie about I say and I'm the cnut for going 'lawyer mode' and correcting you? What do you want me to do? To argue things i don't think to be true?

Winning and playing well is not the same thing. A player can play like complete shit and as long as Ronaldo is scoring a hattrick over it then they'll go through won't they? Rakitic played a lot better than Kroos in last year's quarterfinals. One went through, the other didn't. I rate players based on their performances, taking into account the importance of the different competitions and the context in which they're in. Not based on how often they win trophies for fecks sake. How many times have I said this? It's the same argument, you and your soulmate just love to misrepresent because you know you cannot argue against what I'm actually saying.

Busquets won the Euros and the World Cup, same for Pique, Xavi, Iniesta... Alba won the Euros. Neymar, I've made the exact same criticisms about him than I tend to make about Messi. Winning as the star player of the team that influences how the whole team sets up is a lot different than winning as a squad player too.

Neymar's a better dribbler and through ball passer than Messi now. Scores about a goal per game too and he still isn't half the player. If you guys were consistent you'd argue Neymar and Hazard are better players than Ronaldo rather than only having the balls to come out with completely outrageous opinions like that from September to February.

If FOR YOU the consistency is what matters over and showing up in big moments is completely irrelevant then why the feck do you rate Marcelo over Alba, Kroos over Rakitic and Ramos over Pique??? You accuse me of changing arguments when YOU are the one does it without any bit of shame. Madrid's midfield went from being the best midfield in the world to being nowhere near it the second Ronaldo left.

 

[Hemant]

Messi's moments of tormenting Madrid vs Ronaldo tormenting Barca aren't even close. Messi has had TONS of iconic moments vs Madrid with Ronaldo on the pitch. Messi literally had the entire madrid team face down on the floor after scoring in injury time 2 years ago. Never seen Ronaldo do anything close to that.

And Messi also has more goals at the Bernebeau than at home, it's even meme'd how the bernebeau is barca's training ground.

Are we shifting now to Messi scoring that goal in 2011 or injury time goal ? Wow Ronaldo scoring that header in extra time isn’t iconic , scoring that goal with acute angle from ozil pass isn’t iconic..playing with Puyol and pique with his pace is not good enough I guess ..yeah I get your point. You simply keep going from one thing to other .

What is your point now really if you Also agree both have more goals away from home in Classico and Ronaldo set record for scoring in most consecutive Clasicos ?

Oh ok now we need to focus on scoring in injury time right ? Or 1 iconic goal right? I guess he only likes to score against La Liga teams but chokes in CL

 

[TambourineMan]

Right... you and him blatantly lie about I say and I'm the cnut for going 'lawyer mode' and correcting you? What do you want me to do? To argue things i don't think to be true?

Winning and playing well is not the same thing. A player can play like complete shit and as long as Ronaldo is scoring a hattrick over it then they'll go through won't they? Rakitic played a lot better than Kroos in last year's quarterfinals. One went through, the other didn't. I rate players based on their performances, taking into account the importance of the different competitions and the context in which they're in. Not based on how often they win trophies for fecks sake. How many times have I said this? It's the same argument, you and your soulmate just love to misrepresent because you know you cannot argue against what I'm actually saying.

Busquets won the Euros and the World Cup, same for Pique, Xavi, Iniesta... Alba won the Euros. Neymar, I've made the exact same criticisms about him than I tend to make about Messi. Winning as the star player of the team that influences how the whole team sets up is a lot different than winning as a squad player too.

Neymar's a better dribbler and through ball passer than Messi now. Scores about a goal per game too and he still isn't half the player. If you guys were consistent you'd argue Neymar and Hazard are better players than Ronaldo rather than only having the balls to come out with completely outrageous opinions like that from September to February.

If FOR YOU the consistency is what matters over and showing up in big moments is completely irrelevant then why the feck do you rate Marcelo over Alba, Kroos over Rakitic and Ramos over Pique??? You accuse me of changing arguments when YOU are the one does it without any bit of shame. Madrid's midfield went from being the best midfield in the world to being nowhere near it the second Ronaldo left.

That is not incorrect and for much of his career it has worked in Ronaldo's favour. If his teammates had not stepped up, Madrid would have lost to Liverpool and A.Madrid. In both those games he looked nothing close to the best player of all time. For someone who his backers constantly tout as being the ultimate 'cluth' player - how many great performances has he had in finals? I count one - against Juventus. That's pretty average and he's lucky his teammates have stepped up to bail him out on so many occasions. If his teammates were as reliant on him as you say they are, his trophy cabinet would be a lot smaller.

People would argue that Neymar and Hazard are better than Ronaldo if they maintain their same game whilst scoring as many goals as Ronaldo does. They don't match Ronaldo for goals though, Messi does and then some. That's why people say he's better.

I've been on this forum for a short while and it happens on both sides but the downplaying of Real/Portugal and Barca/Argentina is truly hilarious. A joint team from the 5 years would be made up almost exclusively of players from these two clubs.

 

[Daysleeper]

Are we shifting now to Messi scoring that goal in 2011 or injury time goal ? Wow Ronaldo scoring that header in extra time isn’t iconic , scoring that goal with acute angle from ozil pass isn’t iconic..playing with Puyol and pique with his pace is not good enough I guess ..yeah I get your point. You simply keep going from one thing to other .

What is your point now really if you Also agree both have more goals away from home in Classico and Ronaldo set record for scoring in most consecutive Clasicos ?

Oh ok now we need to focus on scoring in injury time right ? Or 1 iconic goal right? I guess he only likes to score against La Liga teams but chokes in CL

Yup, a guy who has won 4 CL’s chokes in CL. To teams that nearly beat Madrid themselves where Ronaldo did ZILCH outside of Juventus who imploded in the lockeroom at halftime.

Must be pretty bad for a “choker” to destroy Ronaldo time and time again.

 

[Daysleeper]

That is not incorrect and for much of his career it has worked in Ronaldo's favour. If his teammates had not stepped up, Madrid would have lost to Liverpool and A.Madrid. In both those games he looked nothing close to the best player of all time. For someone who his backers constantly tout as being the ultimate 'cluth' player - how many great performances has he had in finals? I count one - against Juventus. That's pretty average and he's lucky his teammates have stepped up to bail him out on so many occasions. If his teammates were as reliant on him as you say they are, his trophy cabinet would be a lot smaller.

People would argue that Neymar and Hazard are better than Ronaldo if they maintain their same game whilst scoring as many goals as Ronaldo does. They don't match Ronaldo for goals though, Messi does and then some. That's why people say he's better.

I've been on this forum for a short while and it happens on both sides but the downplaying of Real/Portugal and Barca/Argentina is truly hilarious. A joint team from the 5 years would be made up almost exclusively of players from these two clubs.

Spot on

 

[Peyroteo]

Barcelona do out team Madrid there but Madrid also out-teamed every opponent they have faced in the CL across their three wins. Should we discount his performances in all of these games as well?

The fact is when Messi has faced Ronaldo he has gotten the better of him almost every time and very often in spectacular fashion - hat-tricks, solo goals, ridiculous assists etc. If Ronaldo could have hit the same heights Messi hit in those games maybe Madrid wouldn't have such an embarrassing record against their biggest rivals.

While Ronaldo was at Madrid, they won 10 games, drew 8 and lost 15 vs Barcelona. Embarassing record? Considering the difference in support they both had and the fact Madrid ended a ridiculous amount of those games playing with 10 men the results overall weren’t bad.

Players hit the heights the team allows them to hit, Messi would not have hit those heights if he had been playing in the team Ronaldo was playing throughout those years.

And it’s not the same playing in a team that’s right up there as the best in the world or playing in a team that’s the best in the history of the sport. Ronaldo’s best team while he was at Madrid was miles worse than the best team Messi played with and Ronaldo’s worst team was miles worse than the worst team Messi played with.

A lot easier to be in one’s shoes than the other’s. And the truth is that in the 9 years Ronaldo was at Real Madrid, Real Madrid were more successful than Barcelona despite Ronaldo getting nowhere near the help Messi got.

 

[kouroux]

While Ronaldo was at Madrid, they won 10 games, drew 8 and lost 15 vs Barcelona. Embarassing record? Considering the difference in support they both had and the fact Madrid ended a ridiculous amount of those games playing with 10 men the results overall weren’t bad.

Players hit the heights the team allows them to hit, Messi would not have hit those heights if he had been playing in the team Ronaldo was playing throughout those years.

And it’s not the same playing in a team that’s right up there as the best in the world or playing in a team that’s the best in the history of the sport. Ronaldo’s best team while he was at Madrid was miles worse than the best team Messi played with and Ronaldo’s worst team was miles worse than the worst team Messi played with.

A lot easier to be in one’s shoes than the other’s. And the truth is that in the 9 years Ronaldo was at Real Madrid, Real Madrid were more successful than Barcelona despite Ronaldo getting nowhere near the help Messi got.

I hope this can also be used when judging Messi with Argentina (not aimed at you specifically)

 

[Peyroteo]

That is not incorrect and for much of his career it has worked in Ronaldo's favour. If his teammates had not stepped up, Madrid would have lost to Liverpool and A.Madrid. In both those games he looked nothing close to the best player of all time. For someone who his backers constantly tout as being the ultimate 'cluth' player - how many great performances has he had in finals? I count one - against Juventus. That's pretty average and he's lucky his teammates have stepped up to bail him out on so many occasions. If his teammates were as reliant on him as you say they are, his trophy cabinet would be a lot smaller.

People would argue that Neymar and Hazard are better than Ronaldo if they maintain their same game whilst scoring as many goals as Ronaldo does. They don't match Ronaldo for goals though, Messi does and then some. That's why people say he's better.

Neymar’s scored more than Ronaldo this season, he’s a better passer and a better dribbler. Absolutely noone in their right mind would claim he’s a better player. Why’s that?

Why are people here arguing Messi’s better than Ronaldo because he scores more and he’s a better playmaker not making the exact same argument for Neymar or Hazard? If they’re going to completely ignore what Ronaldo is as a player, at least do it consistently.

Ronaldo was injured both for the 2014 and 2016 CL finals. No team relies on a player playing seven 10/10 games in the CL knockouts to win them the competition. One wins more often than the other because one shows up more often than the other. Ronaldo doesn’t show up every time, no player in history does. He was fine in both of those finals btw, as he was last year. 7/10 performances... is there a single player in history that’s won the Champions League/European Cup without having a couple of 7/10 performances in there? Feels like he has to get a hattrick every game to get the credit even after seeing just how much poorer the team that has won 4 CLs in 5 years has become without him. If Madrid played Ajax with Ronaldo and he has a performance like he did in the 2018 CL final do you think they go out? Maybe his impact on the team went way beyond the goals afterall...

The idea that Ronaldo only showing up sometimes while Messi also shows up sometimes makes them equal when in reality everyone knows Ronaldo’s sometimes is a lot more often than Messi’s sometimes is just silly.

 

[Peyroteo]

I hope this can also be used when judging Messi with Argentina (not aimed at you specifically)

Of course, no one should judge Messi internationally as if he was playing for the brazilian teams Pele played with for example.

No one should judge Ronaldo as if he had played for the teams Messi’s played with either though but unfortunately that’s not how it seems to work for a lot of people.

Teammates only impact the game as long as they’re scoring in CL finals apparently. Lucky Ronaldo for playing with Eder and Bale instead of Aguero and Neymar.

 

[kouroux]

Of course, no one should judge Messi internationally as if he was playing for the brazilian teams Pele played with for example.

No one should judge Ronaldo as if he had played for the teams Messi’s played with either though.

You're right, let's just close this whole thread.

 

[Zehner]

Right... you and him blatantly lie about I say and I'm the cnut for going 'lawyer mode' and correcting you? What do you want me to do? To argue things i don't think to be true?

Winning and playing well is not the same thing. A player can play like complete shit and as long as Ronaldo is scoring a hattrick over it then they'll go through won't they? Rakitic played a lot better than Kroos in last year's quarterfinals. One went through, the other didn't. I rate players based on their performances, taking into account the importance of the different competitions and the context in which they're in. Not based on how often they win trophies for fecks sake. How many times have I said this? It's the same argument, you and your soulmate just love to misrepresent because you know you cannot argue against what I'm actually saying.

Busquets won the Euros and the World Cup, same for Pique, Xavi, Iniesta... Alba won the Euros. Neymar, I've made the exact same criticisms about him than I tend to make about Messi. Winning as the star player of the team that influences how the whole team sets up is a lot different than winning as a squad player too.

Neymar's a better dribbler and through ball passer than Messi now. Scores about a goal per game too and he still isn't half the player. If you guys were consistent you'd argue Neymar and Hazard are better players than Ronaldo rather than only having the balls to come out with completely outrageous opinions like that from September to February.

If FOR YOU the consistency is what matters over and showing up in big moments is completely irrelevant then why the feck do you rate Marcelo over Alba, Kroos over Rakitic and Ramos over Pique??? You accuse me of changing arguments when YOU are the one does it without any bit of shame. Madrid's midfield went from being the best midfield in the world to being nowhere near it the second Ronaldo left.

Calm down. Why are you always getting so emotional and aggressive? I'm not accusing you of a crime or somewthing like that.

I literally wrote "after Pep". Spain hasn't won a thing since 2012, so all his Spanish team mates have the same trophy cabinet as Messi since then.

Yes, I rate Marcelo and Kroos higher than Alba and Rakitic but not because they won stuff. I was asking why you with the emphasis on titles and clutch performances you have don't rate them. I know very well why I have them in higher regards, they are simply better players in almost any aspect of their game IMO. At Barca they would've benched Rakitic and Alba but not vice versa.

Speaking of trophies. How many times have I argued that winning trophies is a bad metric and you appeared in Ronaldo's defence telling me that they matter much? How many times have you argued that great performances in big games matter more? That's what I mean. You make points, then you pretend like you never said such things. And then you discuss about wording, phrasing and whatever in so extensive post that sooner or later the other side loses interest.

See, everyone of us has a little algorithm in his head that he uses to rate football players. In that little formula, he assigns different criteria different weightings based what he deems more or less important. Then there's also bias that leads us to bend these criteria for players we've got sympathy for. With many in here you can take a pretty good guess what this algorithm looks roughly looks like. Some like technical players, others physical, others look at hard statistics trophies won or goal stats. No judgement here. But yours is impossible to derive since it is in a constant change process and this is because it is only allowed to come to one specific result. I really can't say what's important to you. And then there's also the question what even reaches this algorithm. You exemplarily refuse to acknowledge that Messi has incredible off the ball movement or that he has shown great adaptability throughout his career.

You can't say any of those things about us. We are consistent in what we rate and you can take a pretty good guess what that little algorithm in our heads looks like. And we acknowledge if Ronaldo shows aspects of football in his game that he hasn't shoen in years, like he has refound his dribbling skills at Juve, contributing much more than he has in years at least at club level.

 

[TambourineMan]

While Ronaldo was at Madrid, they won 10 games, drew 8 and lost 15 vs Barcelona. Embarassing record? Considering the difference in support they both had and the fact Madrid ended a ridiculous amount of those games playing with 10 men the results overall weren’t bad.

Players hit the heights the team allows them to hit, Messi would not have hit those heights if he had been playing in the team Ronaldo was playing throughout those years.

And it’s not the same playing in a team that’s right up there as the best in the world or playing in a team that’s the best in the history of the sport. Ronaldo’s best team while he was at Madrid was miles worse than the best team Messi played with and Ronaldo’s worst team was miles worse than the worst team Messi played with.

A lot easier to be in one’s shoes than the other’s. And the truth is that in the 9 years Ronaldo was at Real Madrid, Real Madrid were more successful than Barcelona despite Ronaldo getting nowhere near the help Messi got.

Getting into a convoluted argument about who had the better team behind them is a complete waste of time so I am going to refrain.

My opinion and that of most fans is that Messi had the better and more settled team behind him during the Pep era where we he did his best work and Ronaldo had the better and more settled team behind him during the Zidane era where he did his best work. This is reflected in general voting for official team of the year awards and the respective medals and accolades won collectively by both teams.

Neymar’s scored more than Ronaldo this season, he’s a better passer and a better dribbler. Absolutely noone in their right mind would claim he’s a better player. Why’s that?

Why are people here arguing Messi’s better than Ronaldo because he scores more and he’s a better playmaker not making the exact same argument for Neymar or Hazard? If they’re going to completely ignore what Ronaldo is as a player, at least do it consistently.

Ronaldo was injured both for the 2014 and 2016 CL finals. No team relies on a player playing seven 10/10 games in the CL knockouts to win them the competition. One wins more often than the other because one shows up more often than the other. Ronaldo doesn’t show up every time, no player in history does. He was fine in both of those finals btw, as he was last year. 7/10 performances... is there a single player in history that’s won the Champions League/European Cup without having a couple of 7/10 performances in there? Feels like he has to get a hattrick every game to get the credit even after seeing just how much poorer the team that has won 4 CLs in 5 years has become without him. If Madrid played Ajax with Ronaldo and he has a performance like he did in the 2018 CL final do you think they go out? Maybe his impact on the team went way beyond the goals afterall...

The idea that Ronaldo only showing up sometimes while Messi also shows up sometimes makes them equal when in reality everyone knows Ronaldo’s sometimes is a lot more often than Messi’s sometimes is just silly.

So in your opinion Neymar is good a goalscorer as Ronaldo? That’s an interesting perspective. I would usually factor in longevity and consistency in assessing what makes a great goalscorer but if you think outscoring Ronaldo in one season makes Neymar Ronaldo’s goalscoring equal than that is fine by me. Weird logic but okay.

My view is that Neymar is nowhere near the goalscoring equal of Ronaldo as he hasn’t matched Ronaldo’s consistency through the years or even gotten close to his peak season numbers. By your logic Suarez should be considered as good as Messi and Ronaldo in getting goals because he matched them for a couple of seasons in his peak.

No player puts in 10 on 10 performances through tournaments. When they don’t their teammates have to step up as it is a team sport. The fact is when Messi underperformed in the last few seasons, his team failed to step up. When Ronaldo underperformed, his teammates did step up. I’m not deluded enough to say or argue that Messi has been as effective or consistent in the CL as Ronaldo the past three seasons. Ronaldo has been better. I can acknowledge that but when people say something as blindingly obvious as Messi getting the better on Ronaldo in head to head match up’s, the Ronaldo brigade start shouting Xavi/Iniesta and downplaying every Madrid player possible to shield Ronaldo from his underperformance in these fixtures. There are extenuating circumstances that surround Messi’s underperformance in the last three CL KO stages as there are in Ronaldo’s underperformance in Classico’s. Both players failed to overcome these obstacles and it’s time we stop blaming their teammates, illness and whatever else. Both players failed.

As for Ronaldo stepping up more than Messi, this is an isolation of the last three years whilst completely ignoring the rest of their careers. It’s far more equal than you would like to believe but there’s no convincing you of that so I’m not going to bother. Ronaldo can do no wrong in your eyes. If he plays poorly it’s because he was plagued by illness or had to do with just Kroos and Modric in support (the horror). People on the Messi end understand he has not been brilliant for Argentina and underperformed in the last three years of the CL. He has to right these wrongs and has a good chance to do so with the CL this season. He is two years younger than Ronaldo and will in all likelihood end up with more Balon D’Ors and goals, retiring as the most successful footballer in history but I’m sure they will be Ronaldo fans ten years from now reminding us of Ronaldo’s hat-trick against Wolfsburg or Sweden trying desperately to define clutch.

 

[Prometheus]

Can you read????

Tell me once where I said Barcelona had the best team in the world since 2016. ONE TIME. Once, please. Seriously, one fecking time.

Such a shameless liar it's incredible. 385 pages to look for, show me one time I said that please.

Besides, what I said was Abidal played in a much better team than Alba. Which would be the truth even if Barcelona were the best team in the world since Abidal played for the best team in the history of the sport.

So not only did you completely lie about what I said, you completely made up a lie that didn't even invalidate the argument in the first place.

Truly remarkable. Not only that, but you did it 3 lines after calling me obtuse. There should be some sort of award for how bad that was.

That's why I can't take them seriously.

The sheer number of outright lies in the last few pages alone is insane!

 

[MalcolmTucker]

@Peyroteo haven't you been saying Barca has by far the best squad this year over and over for months now and using it as a stick to beat Messi with? I definitely read that.

Is this where you say team and squad are different and playing Messi hinders the best squad in the world?

 

[Bole Top]

Can you read????

Tell me once where I said Barcelona had the best team in the world since 2016. ONE TIME. Once, please. Seriously, one fecking time.

Such a shameless liar it's incredible. 385 pages to look for, show me one time I said that please.

come on now, you know he's right. I pointed out in our recent debate that Juve were already strong enough, being stopped only by Madrid in last 2 seasons and now have their best player. you responded that Barca are just much, much stronger despite not winning anything for a while now and that it's completely different thing winning the CL with Juve than with current Barca. you also stated that Barca easily have the best squad in the world and no one is even close. stick to those opinions now.

 

[VP]

FFS the state of this thread. Thank feck these guys are once in a generation talents, otherwise fanboism would be the death of football.

I'm curious though - do any of the Ronaldo fanboys on here play football? At least in my circles, most people, who follow and play the sport regularly, all agree that Messi's the better player. If you play regularly, I think you tend to appreciate Messi's genius more easily.

 

[KirkDuyt]

FFS the state of this thread. Thank feck these guys are once in a generation talents, otherwise fanboism would be the death of football.

I'm curious though - do any of the Ronaldo fanboys on here play football? At least in my circles, most people, who follow and play the sport regularly, all agree that Messi's the better player. If you play regularly, I think you tend to appreciate Messi's genius more easily.

I love watching this thread precisely because of the fanboism. The two sets of fanboys accusing each other of it is hilarious. The lack of self reflection is nothing short of miraculous.