Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[roonster09]

Also, you love passing stats now? You'll be happy to see this

Welcome to Messi fanboyism 101:

Step 1 - Indian teenager with a twitter account called MessiMagic or CoutinhoForever make something up (be it a heat map, a statistic, a graphic, whatever... anything goes) they share it, a bunch of other fanboys retweet it and it spreads.

Step 2 - One of those fanboys is so impressed by the stats/graphic/heat map they don’t even care if it’s true or not and they share it to reddit where a bunch of fans upvote it to the top

Step 3 - after a few hours someone comes along that questions its source and people get called out for it

Step 4 - Ishdalar/Daysleaper/etc don’t care for sources and they spread it to redcafe soon after, others spread it to different forums... and a completely made up load of garbage becomes the truth in people’s minds since there’s nothing Messi fanboys love more than shoving either irrelevant or fake statistics down every football fan’s throat.

How can you just post some random graphs without even checking? You can laugh as much as you want at @Peyroteo but he is spot on with this graph. It's a BS graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys with no sources, posted on twitter and then on multiple forums.

It says Messi averages 6 through passes per game, that's BS. He averages 1.1 through passes per game.
Di Maria is showed as 3.5 through balls per game, he averages 0.2 per game, Verratti averages 0.5 per game.

Forget Messi or any individual player, no team makes 6 through passes per game. PSG plays the highest in top 5 leagues with 5 through passes per game.
Barcelona - 4
Chelsea - 4
City - 3
Liverpool - 3
Lyon - 3
Napoli - 2
Inter - 2
Madrid - 2
Atletico 2
Espanyol - 2
Spurs - 2
Arsenal - 2
ManUtd - 2
West Ham - 2
Leicester - 2
Bournemouth - 2
Wolves - 2
Dortmund - 2
Frankfurt - 2
Marseille - 2
Lille - 2

This is like dealing with fake news all day. Someone posts some random graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys, some other Messi fan comes up with how City were best team in 2014-15 when they were closer to Arsenal than Chelsea (Who were champions) and struggled even in group stage, some other Messi fan comes up with how Madrid had best midfield 3 when one of the player was out on loan at Porto and other 2 played together for just 19 out of 59 games.

fecking hell, you guys don't have to come up with so much BS to say Messi is GOAT. There are few people who prefer different things in football, some like "clutch player", some prefers best goal scorer in best club competition and some prefer all round package and how good player is on the ball.

For me Messi is GOAT and there is no player like him, he is just the ultimate combination of multiple players. Doesn't mean we have to be insecure and start believing fake news and stats.

 

[Peyroteo]

He definitely didn’t know it was fake but it’s awful how these things work.

Any fan can make a stat up, make a graphic out of it and as long as he gets enough retweets it essentially becomes the truth.

 

[Daysleeper]

He definitely didn’t know it was fake but it’s awful how these things work.

Any fan can make a stat up, make a graphic out of it and as long as he gets enough retweets it essentially becomes the truth.

So are you saying there is a lot more in common with Messi and Donald Trump than we would like to admit?

 

[Daysleeper]

How can you just post some random graphs without even checking? You can laugh as much as you want at @Peyroteo but he is spot on with this graph. It's a BS graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys with no sources, posted on twitter and then on multiple forums.

It says Messi averages 6 through passes per game, that's BS. He averages 1.1 through passes per game.
Di Maria is showed as 3.5 through balls per game, he averages 0.2 per game, Verratti averages 0.5 per game.

Forget Messi or any individual player, no team makes 6 through passes per game. PSG plays the highest in top 5 leagues with 5 through passes per game.
Barcelona - 4
Chelsea - 4
City - 3
Liverpool - 3
Lyon - 3
Napoli - 2
Inter - 2
Madrid - 2
Atletico 2
Espanyol - 2
Spurs - 2
Arsenal - 2
ManUtd - 2
West Ham - 2
Leicester - 2
Bournemouth - 2
Wolves - 2
Dortmund - 2
Frankfurt - 2
Marseille - 2
Lille - 2

This is like dealing with fake news all day. Someone posts some random graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys, some other Messi fan comes up with how City were best team in 2014-15 when they were closer to Arsenal than Chelsea (Who were champions) and struggled even in group stage, some other Messi fan comes up with how Madrid had best midfield 3 when one of the player was out on loan at Porto and other 2 played together for just 19 out of 59 games.

fecking hell, you guys don't have to come up with so much BS to say Messi is GOAT. There are few people who prefer different things in football, some like "clutch player", some prefers best goal scorer in best club competition and some prefer all round package and how good player is on the ball.

For me Messi is GOAT and there is no player like him, he is just the ultimate combination of multiple players. Doesn't mean we have to be insecure and start believing fake news and stats.

Wow roonster, always thought you were a Ronaldo fan, which would be fine or course but I am taken aback my friend.

 

[roonster09]

Wow roonster, always thought you were a Ronaldo fan, which would be fine or course but I am taken aback my friend.

I have said many times that Messi is GOAT and for me Messi > Ronaldo always.

I'm not a fan of either players but I love watching Messi play. Said it many times, he is arguably best dribbler, best passer of all time (at least since I started watching games) and for me without doubt he is the best dribbler, best passer, best playmaker today. That's why he is the ultimate combination of players rolled into one.

In these arguments, I just reply to few specific posts which are just piss take, like how Madrid have best midfield 3 when 1 was out on loan and other 2 played together for just 19 games.

 

[Brwned]

How can you just post some random graphs without even checking? You can laugh as much as you want at @Peyroteo but he is spot on with this graph. It's a BS graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys with no sources, posted on twitter and then on multiple forums.

It says Messi averages 6 through passes per game, that's BS. He averages 1.1 through passes per game.
Di Maria is showed as 3.5 through balls per game, he averages 0.2 per game, Verratti averages 0.5 per game.

Forget Messi or any individual player, no team makes 6 through passes per game. PSG plays the highest in top 5 leagues with 5 through passes per game.
Barcelona - 4
Chelsea - 4
City - 3
Liverpool - 3
Lyon - 3
Napoli - 2
Inter - 2
Madrid - 2
Atletico 2
Espanyol - 2
Spurs - 2
Arsenal - 2
ManUtd - 2
West Ham - 2
Leicester - 2
Bournemouth - 2
Wolves - 2
Dortmund - 2
Frankfurt - 2
Marseille - 2
Lille - 2

This is like dealing with fake news all day. Someone posts some random graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys, some other Messi fan comes up with how City were best team in 2014-15 when they were closer to Arsenal than Chelsea (Who were champions) and struggled even in group stage, some other Messi fan comes up with how Madrid had best midfield 3 when one of the player was out on loan at Porto and other 2 played together for just 19 out of 59 games.

fecking hell, you guys don't have to come up with so much BS to say Messi is GOAT. There are few people who prefer different things in football, some like "clutch player", some prefers best goal scorer in best club competition and some prefer all round package and how good player is on the ball.

For me Messi is GOAT and there is no player like him, he is just the ultimate combination of multiple players. Doesn't mean we have to be insecure and start believing fake news and stats.

Is it possible that there are multiple definitions of a through pass, and different stats aggregators use different definitions?

 

[roonster09]

Is it possible that there are multiple definitions of a through pass, and different stats aggregators use different definitions?

From that twitter account.

Did Messi make 6 passes to the teammate that led to one on one with GK? I seriously doubt it.

Yeah, maybe different site have different definitions but the one used here says "space behind defensive line leading the player alone against GK". 6 one on one passes per game looks unreal.

 

[Brwned]

From that twitter account.

Did Messi make 6 passes to the teammate that led to one on one with GK? I seriously doubt it.

Yeah, maybe different site have different definitions but the one used here says "space behind defensive line leading the player alone against GK". 6 one on one passes per game looks unreal.

To me, that still leaves a lot of room for interpretation. A typical definition of a through ball would be the kind of passes Messi makes to Alba every game, where he gets put in behind the defence. You can technically say as the furthest forward player he is "alone" with the goalkeeper, however most people wouldn't describe it that way as we understand the context of being 1v1.

It's entirely plausible that Messi makes a 6 typical through balls per game, if you count those passes in between fullback and centre back to an onrushing wide player. Entirely implausible that he puts players through 1 on 1 six times a game.

Rather than assuming the data is made up, it seems more likely to me that they're simply using a looser definition of a through ball than is being described. That loose description is one I've heard being used for decades by commentators too.

 

[roonster09]

To me, that still leaves a lot of room for interpretation. A typical definition of a through ball would be the kind of passes Messi makes to Alba every game, where he gets put in behind the defence. However most people wouldn't describe that as him being 1 on 1 with the goalkeeper.

It's entirely plausible that Messi makes a 6 typical through balls per game, if you count those passes in between fullback and centre back to an onrushing wide player. Entirely implausible that he puts players through 1 on 1 six times a game.

Rather than assuming the data is made up, it seems more likely to me that they're simply using a looser definition of a through ball than is being described. That loose description is one I've heard being used for decades by commentators too.

I thought about that telepathic pass Messi plays to Alba but Alba rarely gets one on one with GK, he usually gets behind the defense and then cuts back to the attacker. So going by their definition, it's not a through pass. Maybe they count that by ignoring the position on the field (like Alba receiving pass behind defense but closer to corner flag), so any pass behind the defender is a through pass and one on one with GK. It doesn't make sense to me.

Re your last paragraph, yeah there is a good chance that it's misinterpreted than made up. No way of knowing without proper source and just some random guy on twitter posting it.

 

[Hemant]

United and Madrid were declining as Ronaldo jumped ship. United went to a CL final without him, had he stayed they wouldn't have made many more CL finals after 2012.

Madrid were playing on fumes last year, Ronaldo was an absolute ghost last year, had Salah not been injured it would be a different story.

Ronaldo has some of the highest scoring CL players in HISTORY as teammates. Benezema, Ramos, Marcelo is one of the highest scoring defenders.

And imagine bragging about Madrid beating Atletico when it took a 94th minute Ramos header (Madrid were just as stifled as Barca in that match) and then a missed Griezmann penalty in the 90 minutes in 2016 to seal the deal. They got it done, but it must be such a luxury to be injured MULTIPLE times and still get trophies for it. It happened to Messi in 2006, but for Ronaldo to keep getting them despite being a complete passenger in the finals in 2014, 2016 (both CL and the Euro) and 2018 is something that may be unprecedented in sports history.

I can't think of any other #1 player for a team who can be absent in so many finals and still come away with the title. Ronaldo is a damn good player but possibly the most fortunate footballer in history.

Madrid didn't replace him at all, when Ramos was missing the second leg against Juventus Madrid nearly choked without him. When he missed the second leg against Ajax they conceded 4 times.

Had Ronaldo stayed Madrid would've been far more competitive, but the team is on its last legs. Hence the huge retooling they'll be doing over the summer. They were due for a long time now.

Do you really just have one argument that Ronaldo was poor 2014 and 2016 finals ? He was injured in both finals and you know that as well and also does only Final matters ? How about R16,QF,SF ? The fact is he has played those many finals because he helped the team reached those many finals .

Wasn’t Messi helped by Iniesta (2009) , Saurez/Neymar in 2015 in winning CL? Where was he in knockout games in WC 2014 ?

You talked about opposition missing penalties ,easy chances . I mean you are not adding anything to argument really actually here because one can say Barçelona won more La Liga titles because other teams striker fecked their chances against them in league ?

 

[Brwned]

I thought about that telepathic pass Messi plays to Alba but Alba rarely gets one on one with GK, he usually gets behind the defense and then cuts back to the attacker. So going by their definition, it's not a through pass. Maybe they count that by ignoring the position on the field (like Alba receiving pass behind defense but closer to corner flag), so any pass behind the defender is a through pass and one on one with GK. It doesn't make sense to me.

Re your last paragraph, yeah there is a good chance that it's misinterpreted than made up. No way of knowing without proper source and just some random guy on twitter posting it.

Totally agree with the final paragraph. I'd seen those charts before and although they look intuitive enough, I'd always wondered what the source was. I just figured it wa because I'd never looked rather than because it was never published!

 

[Gehrman]

I have said many times that Messi is GOAT and for me Messi > Ronaldo always.

I'm not a fan of either players but I love watching Messi play. Said it many times, he is arguably best dribbler, best passer of all time (at least since I started watching games) and for me without doubt he is the best dribbler, best passer, best playmaker today. That's why he is the ultimate combination of players rolled into one.

In these arguments, I just reply to few specific posts which are just piss take, like how Madrid have best midfield 3 when 1 was out on loan and other 2 played together for just 19 games.

Apart from that he is also one of the best if not the best goalscorer of all time.

 

[Prometheus]

How can you just post some random graphs without even checking? You can laugh as much as you want at @Peyroteo but he is spot on with this graph. It's a BS graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys with no sources, posted on twitter and then on multiple forums.

It says Messi averages 6 through passes per game, that's BS. He averages 1.1 through passes per game.
Di Maria is showed as 3.5 through balls per game, he averages 0.2 per game, Verratti averages 0.5 per game.

Forget Messi or any individual player, no team makes 6 through passes per game. PSG plays the highest in top 5 leagues with 5 through passes per game.
Barcelona - 4
Chelsea - 4
City - 3
Liverpool - 3
Lyon - 3
Napoli - 2
Inter - 2
Madrid - 2
Atletico 2
Espanyol - 2
Spurs - 2
Arsenal - 2
ManUtd - 2
West Ham - 2
Leicester - 2
Bournemouth - 2
Wolves - 2
Dortmund - 2
Frankfurt - 2
Marseille - 2
Lille - 2

This is like dealing with fake news all day. Someone posts some random graph made by Messi/Barca fan boys, some other Messi fan comes up with how City were best team in 2014-15 when they were closer to Arsenal than Chelsea (Who were champions) and struggled even in group stage, some other Messi fan comes up with how Madrid had best midfield 3 when one of the player was out on loan at Porto and other 2 played together for just 19 out of 59 games.

fecking hell, you guys don't have to come up with so much BS to say Messi is GOAT. There are few people who prefer different things in football, some like "clutch player", some prefers best goal scorer in best club competition and some prefer all round package and how good player is on the ball.

For me Messi is GOAT and there is no player like him, he is just the ultimate combination of multiple players. Doesn't mean we have to be insecure and start believing fake news and stats.

Incredible! Wow!

 

[Gio]

That ‘smart pass’ description is absolute gibberish.

 

[Daysleeper]

Do you really just have one argument that Ronaldo was poor 2014 and 2016 finals ? He was injured in both finals and you know that as well and also does only Final matters ? How about R16,QF,SF ? The fact is he has played those many finals because he helped the team reached those many finals .

Wasn’t Messi helped by Iniesta (2009) , Saurez/Neymar in 2015 in winning CL? Where was he in knockout games in WC 2014 ?

You talked about opposition missing penalties ,easy chances . I mean you are not adding anything to argument really actually here because one can say Barçelona won more La Liga titles because other teams striker fecked their chances against them in league ?

The league is a 38 game sample size, CL is much much shorter and relies a lot more on luck as well since the margins are very thin.

I’d rather win CL than the league but even Zidane said winning the league is much harder than winning CL:

https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/story/zidane-barca-s-liga-title-is-the-most-difficult-to-win-050518

As for Ronaldo and the finals it is an incredible for the best player on the team (even if he was injured) to be poor and his team still win EVERY time. You’d be hard pressed to find any other athlete in history have things go their way that many times.

Any other team in the world having their best player be subpar for that many finals would usually find their team on the losing end for a few of those.

Always gave Ronaldo credit for his performances on the knockout stages multiple times.

 

[mdvmia]

United and Madrid were declining as Ronaldo jumped ship. United went to a CL final without him, had he stayed they wouldn't have made many more CL finals after 2012.

Madrid were playing on fumes last year, Ronaldo was an absolute ghost last year, had Salah not been injured it would be a different story.

Ronaldo has some of the highest scoring CL players in HISTORY as teammates. Benezema, Ramos, Marcelo is one of the highest scoring defenders.

And imagine bragging about Madrid beating Atletico when it took a 94th minute Ramos header (Madrid were just as stifled as Barca in that match) and then a missed Griezmann penalty in the 90 minutes in 2016 to seal the deal. They got it done, but it must be such a luxury to be injured MULTIPLE times and still get trophies for it. It happened to Messi in 2006, but for Ronaldo to keep getting them despite being a complete passenger in the finals in 2014, 2016 (both CL and the Euro) and 2018 is something that may be unprecedented in sports history.

I can't think of any other #1 player for a team who can be absent in so many finals and still come away with the title. Ronaldo is a damn good player but possibly the most fortunate footballer in history.

Madrid didn't replace him at all, when Ramos was missing the second leg against Juventus Madrid nearly choked without him. When he missed the second leg against Ajax they conceded 4 times.

Had Ronaldo stayed Madrid would've been far more competitive, but the team is on its last legs. Hence the huge retooling they'll be doing over the summer. They were due for a long time now.

He also had basically no impact in the semifinals in all three of those years as well.

 

[Tommy]

Did you not see Madrid play Champions League football for the past 3 years? Liverpool were on top, Madrid were winning that even with Salah on the pitch though, they'd have found a way to grab a goal out of their asses. That's always how it went.

Bribing Karius was a masterstroke Honestly, and this is probably Liverpool bias speaking here, but if you keep Salah on the pitch for 90 minutes & replace Karius with an under 15 women's keeper, I think the match could've gone the other way.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

He also had basically no impact in the semifinals in all three of those years as well.

Yeah..scoring 2 goals against Bayern Munich at the Allianz Arena(one of them being a brilliant free kick) is no impact

Only if Messi does that it counts as an impact

 

[mdvmia]

Yeah..scoring 2 goals against Bayern Munich at the Allianz Arena(one of them being a brilliant free kick) is no impact

Only if Messi does that it counts as an impact

Only after Ramos killed the tie with his two headers.

Please explain how a free kick in the 90th minute was impactful when Bayern needed five goals to go through at that point.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

United and Real Madrid were declining when Ronaldo decided to move ship

Not because of him but because of others

 

[ayushreddevil9]

United and Real Madrid were declining when Ronaldo decided to move ship

Not because of him but because of others

Its like that Liverpool fans at the palace game gif. You always get to see something new!

 

[Daysleeper]

Yeah..scoring 2 goals against Bayern Munich at the Allianz Arena(one of them being a brilliant free kick) is no impact

Only if Messi does that it counts as an impact

Match was over by then but he did still score this is true

 

[Daysleeper]

United and Real Madrid were declining when Ronaldo decided to move ship

Not because of him but because of others

They absolutely were. 2018 Madrid was the worst Madrid team of the past 5 years.

Zidane was the writing on the wall and bailed a ssoon as CL was over. Ronaldo left for tax reasons

 

[roonster09]

He also had basically no impact in the semifinals in all three of those years as well.

What? In 2014 he scored 2 goals against Bayern away and also scored + assisted in finals.
Even in 2015 he scored in both games in Semi finals.
In 2016 he didn't but the reason they were in semi finals was because of his efforts in QFs, from 2-0 down to 3-0 win because of his hat trick.
2017: Scored 5 goals against Bayern in QFs and settled the semi finals in the first leg scoring hat trick vs Atletico. Also scored 2 goals in finals.
2018: He didn't score in SFs but then again they were in SFs because of his 3 goals vs Juventus in QFs.

Even in 2012 when they lost on penalties, he scored 2 goals in Semi finals against Bayern and in 2013 he scored in Semi finals against Dortmund.

Like I said before, Messi is superb player but doesn't mean you guys should start shit posting about Ronaldo and his record in CL. When it comes to goals in Knock out rounds, he is on another level to any player.

 

[roonster09]

They absolutely were. 2018 Madrid was the worst Madrid team of the past 5 years.

Zidane was the writing on the wall and bailed a ssoon as CL was over. Ronaldo left for tax reasons

He didn't leave ManUtd because we were on decline, ManUtd dropped levels because Ronaldo left.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Only after Ramos killed the tie with his two headers.

Please explain how a free kick in the 90th minute was impactful when Bayern needed five goals to go through at that point.

Oh so now he has to score first. That means his teammates aren't allowed to score ahead of him or lets say he should compete with his own teammates to get the first goal/second goal.

Shitposting just got to a whole new level!

Also, can YOU explain how Messi has had an impact on Barca' CL campaigns by doing feck all in KOs?

 

[mdvmia]

Oh so now he has to score first. That means his teammates aren't allowed to score ahead of him or lets say he should compete with his own teammates to get the first goal/second goal.

Shitposting just got to a whole new level!

I guess Ronaldo's penalty in the 2014 final was just as important as Ramos' header then.

 

[Daysleeper]

He didn't leave ManUtd because we were on decline, ManUtd dropped levels because Ronaldo left.

I should have rephrased it, as I’d agree that 2011 United >> 2011 Madrid

 

[Daysleeper]

Oh so now he has to score first. That means his teammates aren't allowed to score ahead of him or lets say he should compete with his own teammates to get the first goal/second goal.

Shitposting just got to a whole new level!

Also, can YOU explain how Messi has had an impact on Barca' CL campaigns by doing feck all in KOs?

Right, scoring the two goals to break Bayern’s back in 2015 was “feck all” as was destroying United in the 2011 final

Or how about when he destroyed Ronaldo in the 2011 SF?

 

[Daysleeper]

When it comes to goals in Knock out rounds, he is on another level to any player.

No one can argue with this

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Right, scoring the two goals to break Bayern’s back in 2015 was “feck all” as was destroying United in the 2011 final

Or how about when he destroyed Ronaldo in the 2011 SF?

Oh so now you are talking about the SFs? Where is your all encompassing subset of selective finals?

How about him keeping quiet since then? If you wanna talk about 2011s and 2009s then lets talk about 2008 where Ronaldo made an impact in the final by scoring for us. He made impact in 2017 too. Same number of times Messi has had an impact in finals.

Apart from 2009 and 2011, Messi has been quiet in 2015, 2014 WC final, finals against Chile. And i am only talking about individual impacts here because I know all you got to say is Ronaldo's team helped him.

Ronaldo was injured during the final of Euro 2016, 2014 and 2016 CLs too. If you expect a not fully fit player to take charge like nothing has happened, then I can't really help you.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

I guess Ronaldo's penalty in the 2014 final was just as important as Ramos' header then.

Of course not. But I can't blame you for not giving the guy credit for anything he does.

 

[Tostao_80]

Oh so now you are talking about the SFs? Where is your all encompassing subset of selective finals?

How about him keeping quiet since then? If you wanna talk about 2011s and 2009s then lets talk about 2008 where Ronaldo made an impact in the final by scoring for us. He made impact in 2017 too. Same number of times Messi has had an impact in finals.

Apart from 2009 and 2011, Messi has been quiet in 2015, 2014 WC final, finals against Chile. And i am only talking about individual impacts here because I know all you got to say is Ronaldo's team helped him.

Ronaldo was injured during the final of Euro 2016, 2014 and 2016 CLs too. If you expect a not fully fit player to take charge like nothing has happened, then I can't really help you.

Interesting points you raise but there are two takeaways.
Firstly Ronaldo may have had an impact in 08 and 17 (and did play well, prefer his 08 performance personally) but Messis performances in 09 and (esp) 11 are in a different league. In 11, he was in total command from start to finish.
Secondly, what happened to Ronaldo's teams when he was quiet in CL 14, 16 and Euro 16? His team found a way to win ANYWAY.
What happened to Messis teams when he was queit in CL 15, WC 14 and the 2 Copa finals? His team ended winning only ONE of the 4 finals.
Cant really argue that Cristianos teammates helped him more in finals than Messis teammates did to him. Now, semis and quarters might be a different case, but as it pertains to finals, its pretty clear.

 

[Rito]

Oh so now you are talking about the SFs? Where is your all encompassing subset of selective finals?

How about him keeping quiet since then? If you wanna talk about 2011s and 2009s then lets talk about 2008 where Ronaldo made an impact in the final by scoring for us. He made impact in 2017 too. Same number of times Messi has had an impact in finals.

Apart from 2009 and 2011, Messi has been quiet in 2015, 2014 WC final, finals against Chile. And i am only talking about individual impacts here because I know all you got to say is Ronaldo's team helped him.

Ronaldo was injured during the final of Euro 2016, 2014 and 2016 CLs too. If you expect a not fully fit player to take charge like nothing has happened, then I can't really help you.

So to summarize

1. Ronaldo has to score the first and the winning goal. Otherwise his goals have no impact. Should not be counted.
2. If he scores all the goals for his team, he's selfish.
3. He should score goals only by dribbling through 10 opposition players, because somehow this type of goals count for 2 or 3 goals at a time. Headers, Long range, penalties, free-kicks don't count.
4. If he's winning, his team is making him win.
5. If he loses, all blame on him.
6. BDors don't count for those years he got the award. Same for all individual awards he got.
7. Portugal team from 2002 to present is the best NT to ever play on this planet
8. If he doesn't score he has no impact on the game.
9. Even if he fulfills all the criteria, he has to pass the famed eye-test of the Messi supporters.

Some of the posts here really give an impression that somehow he has fooled the football world over the years while picking up those awards. What a fraud!

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Interesting points you raise but there are two takeaways.
Firstly Ronaldo may have had an impact in 08 and 17 (and did play well, prefer his 08 performance personally) but Messis performances in 09 and (esp) 11 are in a different league. In 11, he was in total command from start to finish.
Secondly, what happened to Ronaldo's teams when he was quiet in CL 14, 16 and Euro 16? His team found a way to win ANYWAY.
What happened to Messis teams when he was queit in CL 15, WC 14 and the 2 Copa finals? His team ended winning only ONE of the 4 finals.
Cant really argue that Cristianos teammates helped him more in finals than Messis teammates did to him. Now, semis and quarters might be a different case, but as it pertains to finals, its pretty clear.

Again, I am not talking who's team helped whom. I am talking about the individual impact like those two posters are talking about. They keep changing the goalposts. First they will criticize him not for scoring in finals disregarding his performances in other KO rounds. But when it comes to Messi, they will quote SFs.

Yes, Messi's performances were in a different league. But I have seen them from Ronaldo too. 3 goals in Turin(twice), hattrick against Atletico, hattrick against Wolfsburg when his team was 2-0 down in aggregate, hattrick against Sweden to take Portugal to the WC were few of his finest performances matched by nobody.

I don't really think barca fans can appreciate those performances because they didn't include dribbling and silky flicks and touches. They included raw pace and power which I along with others appreciate a lot.

 

[Hemant]

The league is a 38 game sample size, CL is much much shorter and relies a lot more on luck as well since the margins are very thin.

I’d rather win CL than the league but even Zidane said winning the league is much harder than winning CL.

As for Ronaldo and the finals it is an incredible for the best player on the team (even if he was injured) to be poor and his team still win EVERY time. You’d be hard pressed to find any other athlete in history have things go their way that many times.

Any other team in the world having their best player be subpar for that many finals would usually find their team on the losing end for a few of those.

Always gave Ronaldo credit for his performances on the knockout stages multiple times.

Interesting points you raise but there are two takeaways.
Firstly Ronaldo may have had an impact in 08 and 17 (and did play well, prefer his 08 performance personally) but Messis performances in 09 and (esp) 11 are in a different league. In 11, he was in total command from start to finish.
Secondly, what happened to Ronaldo's teams when he was quiet in CL 14, 16 and Euro 16? His team found a way to win ANYWAY.
What happened to Messis teams when he was queit in CL 15, WC 14 and the 2 Copa finals? His team ended winning only ONE of the 4 finals.
Cant really argue that Cristianos teammates helped him more in finals than Messis teammates did to him. Now, semis and quarters might be a different case, but as it pertains to finals, its pretty clear.

So we should ignore quarters and semis to support your case ? Ronaldo in CL has been absolutely monster bar when he was injured. Cant say same about Messi ? He prefers likes of Real Betis

 

[Ishdalar]

He didn't leave ManUtd because we were on decline, ManUtd dropped levels because Ronaldo left.

That's like saying the sun rises on the east. Obviously any team in the world would drop levels if Ronaldo or Messi left them in 2009.

I don't get why you guys take that as an attack. "Leaving because the team declined" doesn't mean it already declined, it was there to see for anyone, the Glazers were in command, their best generation getting old, the new players not showing the level you'd want to replace the old guard, rumours about Ferguson almost yearly... it doesn't mean that was the sole reason he left, or even a top 2 reason, but it had to be a part of his decision.

And the same with Real madrid, if he saw that Real had the fuel for another UCL run and a decent league campaign he'd probably still be there, he's a winner and trying to equal Di Stefano's haul with Real is a challenge bigger than almost anything in the world, but when even the manager asks the president for a renewal and he has to leave due to the negative... again, maybe not the first or second reason, but a big reason to leave.

 

[Daysleeper]

Oh so now you are talking about the SFs? Where is your all encompassing subset of selective finals?

How about him keeping quiet since then? If you wanna talk about 2011s and 2009s then lets talk about 2008 where Ronaldo made an impact in the final by scoring for us. He made impact in 2017 too. Same number of times Messi has had an impact in finals.

Apart from 2009 and 2011, Messi has been quiet in 2015, 2014 WC final, finals against Chile. And i am only talking about individual impacts here because I know all you got to say is Ronaldo's team helped him.

Ronaldo was injured during the final of Euro 2016, 2014 and 2016 CLs too. If you expect a not fully fit player to take charge like nothing has happened, then I can't really help you.

Excuses

How was ronaldo on the WC? Messi won player of the tournament while Ronaldo crashed out in the group stage and only got one round further the next tournament. Also with 0 knockout goals in the WC like Messi but at least Messi has assisted plenty of times in the knockout rounds of the WC.

And the average Messi performance in the finals is better than the average Ronaldo performance in the finals

Was Ronaldo injured in the 2018 CL final as well?

And Messi’s run in the 2015 CL final was huge for Suarez getting the second goal that put Barca on top. I’d take messi’s 2015 CL final performance over any final performance Ronaldo has had outside of 2017.

By the way, when Ronaldo faced Chile, he got shut down as well and lost in penalties

Keep chirping though

 

[Daysleeper]

So we should ignore quarters and semis to support your case ? Ronaldo in CL has been absolutely monster bar when he was injured. Cant say same about Messi ? He prefers likes of Real Betis

Funny because Messi torments Ronaldo and Madrid time and time again but you conveniently ignore that. Ronaldo has the same number of goals as Messi last year after the QF in CL, how much of a beast was he then?

 

[roonster09]

That's like saying the sun rises on the east. Obviously any team in the world would drop levels if Ronaldo or Messi left them in 2009.

I don't get why you guys take that as an attack. "Leaving because the team declined" doesn't mean it already declined, it was there to see for anyone, the Glazers were in command, their best generation getting old, the new players not showing the level you'd want to replace the old guard, rumours about Ferguson almost yearly... it doesn't mean that was the sole reason he left, or even a top 2 reason, but it had to be a part of his decision.

And the same with Real madrid, if he saw that Real had the fuel for another UCL run and a decent league campaign he'd probably still be there, he's a winner and trying to equal Di Stefano's haul with Real is a challenge bigger than almost anything in the world, but when even the manager asks the president for a renewal and he has to leave due to the negative... again, maybe not the first or second reason, but a big reason to leave.

Man take this mental gymnastics with someone else. Ronaldo leaving ManUtd has nothing to do with ManUtd declining or lacking ambition. At that time (When he wanted to leave in 2008) Ferdinand was 30, Vidic was 27, Evra - 27, Carrick probably around 26, Rooney and Tevez in early-mid 20s.

He left because he won everything at ManUtd and wanted to join Madrid as that was his dream club. ManUtd spent big in 2007-08 and that season Ronaldo wanted to leave.

I don't give a shit about why he left Madrid, at ManUtd it had nothing to do with predicting decline.