Yeah he might have had the best CL of the decade but how many goals in KOs? Let me tell you - grand total of 2.
The fact that your criteria for undermining Ronaldo shortens down to such a small set of finals says it all really.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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The fact that your criteria for undermining Ronaldo shortens down to such a small set of finals says it all really.
And here’s the difference, Messi didn’t score against City in 2015 but everyone and I mean everyone talked about that performance the next day. His impact was incredible.
With Ronaldo when he doesn’t score/assist he just isn’t in the same tier as Messi. This isn’t to say Ronaldo doesn’t occupy defenders or make great movements in the box but NOBODY ever talks about a great Ronaldo performance where he doesn’t score. Messi still gets jaws to drop.
Ronaldo is worse on average than Messi is in the Finals of UCL. It’s not even close. Thank god for Ramos and Bale shining through time and time again. It is a luxury to have teammates who can finish the job, but once again Ronaldo did a hell of a lot to get them there.
But Ronaldo is able to have his teams still win when he’s a passenger whereas Messi doesn’t have that luxury.
The fact is when both careers are over and people look back, Messi has a legitimate claim to be being the best playmaker ever and the best goal scorer ever. Ronaldo on the other hand can only lay claim to being the best goal scorer of all time.
The greats are often broken down into their excellence in defending, controlling, creating or goal scoring. Very rarely are players measured for greatness outside these parameters as they are the most important facets of football. Name me one player who is remembered for being great outside these broad categories. I can assure you that they are deemed to be great because they excel in the categories defined above and not some extended field of excellence designed to include them.
Based on those categories, Messi through his career has done enough to be named either the best creator or goal scorer ever. Ronaldo to being the best goal scorer alone.
It’s for that reason that I can’t understand how people think Ronaldo is better. It just doesn’t make sense. Goals aren’t everything and even if they were, Messi has a better goal per game ratio through his career. It’s a massive credit to Ronaldo that he is even in this conversation.
The greats are often broken down into their excellence in defending, controlling, creating or goal scoring. Very rarely are players measured for greatness outside these parameters as they are the most important facets of football. Name me one player who is remembered for being great outside these broad categories. I can assure you that they are deemed to be great because they excel in the categories defined above and not some extended field of excellence designed to include them.
Based on those categories, Messi through his career has done enough to be named either the best creator or goal scorer ever. Ronaldo to being the best goal scorer alone.
It’s for that reason that I can’t understand how people think Ronaldo is better. It just doesn’t make sense. Goals aren’t everything and even if they were, Messi has a better goal per game ratio through his career. It’s a massive credit to Ronaldo that he is even in this conversation.
I couldn't agree more. Of course Messi had a good tournament in 2015, but people are deluding themselves if they think he hasn't been underperforming the CL KO stages compared to Ronaldo. Also Ronaldo also has more assists in the CL. You would think it was the opposite by a far margin the way people keep going through rationalisations.
So why is it so difficult for you guys to understand that Ronaldo hasn't been a passenger for like the majority of the matches in the UCL unlike your claim. All you have got to say is "oh look he didn't score in the final, he didn't score in the semis last year". Judging by your comments, someone would think that Messi - even though he doesn't score in KO's still does wonders on the pitch everytime and he never has an off day whereas Ronaldo is shit if he doesn't score.
Ronaldo singlehandedly leads his teams onto the next round - Bayern, Wolfsburg, Atletico, Juventus and so on.
- Messi didn't score against Atletico in 2014,2016 and didn't really made my jaw drop in 4 legs.
- Messi did feck all against Juventus in 2017.
- I didn't know that Messi was playing when Roma fecked them sideways last time around.
I couldn't agree more. Of course Messi had a good tournament in 2015, but people are deluding themselves if they think he hasn't been underperforming the CL KO stages compared to Ronaldo. Also Ronaldo also has more assists in the CL. You would think it was the opposite by a far margin the way people keep going through rationalisations.
This is incredible. I'm sure most Messi fans don't believe it when they are told this little precious fact.
It's amaizing how much better Ronaldo is in the CL KO stages. It's not close at all. However, Messi will have the opportunities to change that.
Yeah I mean the only thing matters these days is if you make people's jaws drop by dribbling against 10 players and then laying off an assist. Maybe you get 2 goals for that or something.I couldn't agree more. Of course Messi had a good tournament in 2015, but people are deluding themselves if they think he hasn't been underperforming the CL KO stages compared to Ronaldo. Also Ronaldo also has more assists in the CL. You would think it was the opposite by a far margin the way people keep going through rationalisations.
More goals, more assists but hey Messi mesmerises me!
Messi brigade don't believe in facts or figures. They have a special pair of eyes which filter everything that Ronaldo does on the pitch. That is the difference between both sides. Most Ronaldo fans have no problem in acknowledging Messi's greatness. But this Messi brigade are a bunch of insecure people who will like the world to believe that Ronaldo is some sort of a glorified Inzhaghi. That makes them truly insufferable.
That's why I don't enjoy discussing this topic with them because of that detestable and irritating behaviour; they say Ronaldo is 'just a goalscorer', yet he has the second most assists in LA Liga, also has the most assists in champions league.
We're even talking about assists because of these Messi fans, if he doesn't win in goals, they go to assists; if he doesn't win in assists, they go to pre-assists (what the hell); and if he doesn't, they fall back on their beloved dribbling...like dribbling wins you games.
They are the most insufferable set of football fans on Earth
They are pretty much equal as goalscorers, but Messi is two times the playmaker, why is this still a debate? Messi does the scoring part plus playmaker like the best number 10 around, Ronaldo only does one part of Messis game to an elite level.
He’s simply the 2nd best in the world, he can’t playmake or create to Messis level, doesn’t mean he is completely rubbish at this, just not Messi and who is?
That's not true though is it? I've seen Ronaldo get praised for performances when he didn't score on a number of occasions. Remember the CL RO16 first leg against Napoli in the 16/17 season? Ronaldo didn't score that game but was lauded MOTM that game and was generally dangerous throughout with intelligent passing and dangerous dribbling.
By the way, why do the South Americans hold so many Copa America like every other year or less? Messi should have already played in 7 or 8 of them?
Couldn't agree more. They are impossible to reason with. Also I wish there was a way we could check pre-assists aka hockey assists as well.
This is a disingenuous post. Ronaldo has been Motm in games where be hasnt scored, true, but no one has argued otherwise. The point being made is that when Messi has done it, he has been in a totally different league. His performance against Mourinho's Real when Barca won 5 nil is still looked at as one of the great performances. His game against City was simply out of this world. Ronaldo's performances are just seen as very good in comparison, not legendary. Playmaking like the goat, dribbling like the goat, game control, masterful technique. All this in one game, all perfected to a standard never seen before. Cristiano is and never was capable of performing to this level
Because your facts and figures argument has been debunked. Like said in another post, if it were down to facts and figures, you would have Lampard as better than Zidane and Iniesta. And no, that is not a straw argument. You would litteraly find many examples of legendary players who wouldn't be seen as good. There are others who have better figures than Diego, but why is he seen as better? The greatest players of all time arent decided by stats and figures. Its the only way for Cristiano's fanboys to shoehorn Cristiano and Gerd Muller into that top 3. You need more. Just being one of the best goalscorers ever is not enough (and no, headers and penalties dont cut it).
Cristiano should have his own tier (he would be at the top of course) with the likes of Gerd, Bam Bam Zamorrano and Pippo Inzhagi.
Yeah and add to that, inability to score more and provide more assists than his rival in important UCL KOs - perfected to a standard only matched by Lord Bendtner or someone belonging to that elite league of legends. Bite
Useless dribbles also don't cut it. And what do you think? Is Ronaldo a header and penalty merchant? Feck me the barometer for judging him by the barca fans is getting smaller and smaller these days.
As @Hala Madrid rightly said - if one day Cr7 takes over messi in dribbling stat then they will create a brand new one like number of chipped goals for outside the box
A coach who wasn't a coach until a few months back. That's how is managed our NT.
They hold them in order for Messi to have a chance at finally winning one. If he wins the tournament or stops playing football, they will stop having Copa Americas all the time, maybe ever.
Difference in opinion does not mean one cannot be reasoned with. I just disagree with you. Why your inability to convince someone that Ronaldo is the best frustrates you, I don't know.
For me, all of this is actually a lesson in life, it's a good thing. Watching Ronaldo succeed in his career is a learning experience because you see what a person can do with a lot of hard work and determination. This is not to say Ronaldo isn't talented, I think he has a lot of talent. He's a phenomenal player who trained himself into becoming a machine so this should be motivation for anyone to try their best in whatever field they're in. I see similar things being done in other areas too, he has a great agent, great PR department and he created a "rivalry" where there isn't one by taking advantage of every circumstance that could go his way.
The way I see football and how I understand the sport, Messi is comfortably the better player in nearly everything. Yes, I'm one of those who think there is no comparison. But I still have respect for the effort put in by Ronaldo and I think I can learn something from him. That may also be why I take part in these discussions, just look at this thread, nearly 400 pages of an argument that shouldn't exist. Perhaps that's what interests me, to see the arguments where I think there aren't any, and a lot of aspects of football (tangibles, intangibles and whatnot) are being discussed which is interesting.
Like I said, I didn't come here to be convinced of something because I know full well how I feel about this topic. This doesn't mean I can't be reasoned with, though. It seems some posters only see any point in arguing if you can talk someone into changing their mind. I disagree, for me it's worth reading and/or discussing just to entertain ideas and analyse different points, we don't have to agree in the end.
Trying everything to give Messi trophy with NT ..
Yes they aren't decided but stats, they are decided by fecking onzo d'ors.
I somehow missed this post, only saw it after clicking on the notification.
Anyway, the part about why I take part in these discussions, I already wrote in my previous post in this thread.
I can only say that for me Messi is the best player in the world because that's how I see it. I don't know if he's the greatest player of all time because I didn't see the other contenders play. And no, I don't consider Ronaldo a contender for the greatest player of all time, I just don't. Top 10? Absolutely. Top 5? Probably. Top 1 or 2? Not for me. He's a phenomenal player, though. I just look for something different, something more in a player.
Regarding Juventus, they would have been out of the Champions League easily had it not been for Ronaldo. In fact, I think they wouldn't even have had a shot at advancing without him. Not just for the goals, but his presence as well made them believe, I agree with this. Anyone who considers Ronaldo average is trolling.
Regarding the EURO, I think there is a difference between taking credit away from Ronaldo completely, and arguing that the tournament was won because of him. Both are wrong, IMO. It's the idea that somehow Portugal were spurred on by Ronaldo that I have a problem with, because I don't think he had or could have that effect. This is different to what happened with Juventus in the Champions League because he was on the pitch, he scored the goals and carried a very heavy burden to help his team qualify. In the EURO, he was injured. There's a difference, and the desire to elevate him goes so far that people suggest he was the reason they beat France, which is overdoing it IMO.
Regarding your last question, I would pick the player that I consider to be the best player I've ever seen. So, Messi. Why? Because his way of playing and his skillset mean he is going to carry the team regardless of what its weakness is.
I agree with this, and perhaps my phrasing was unfortunate; by 'reason with' I didn't mean persuade. What I meant to say was that in general a lot of people have strong convictions about this based on perhaps what you have termed as "intangibles" in your post. So naturally it becomes hard to have good reasoned discussions that prove to be insightful with these fans.
I categorically mentioned that team is average means it doesn’t play like Barça plays. do you still think Messi gives you more chance to win than Ronaldo ?
My point Ronaldo played key role in Euro 2016 and he does have NT with him ..people always bring the point that likes of higiuian and others fecked chance for Messi to win World Cup ..but where was Messi in SF or QF . Also , if you swap their National team mates then Ronaldo for sure gives you Copa titles and most likely WC too . Messi on other hand probably will find it more difficult to win anything with swapped team mates .
I will never agree Messi is better than Ronaldo unless your only criteria is style of playing which is anyway personal preference but on other tangible attributes Ronaldo is on par/better ..
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Also Ronaldo also has more assists in the CL. You would think it was the opposite by a far margin the way people keep going through rationalisations.
In the CL Ronaldo has more assists and goals but he's also played more games. Looking at a per game basis gives a more accurate picture:
Ronaldo - 160 appearances, 124 goals, 36 assists. 0.77 goals per game, 0.22 assists per game.
Messi - 131 appearances, 108 goals, 29 assists. 0.82 goals per game, 0.22 assists per game.
Not much between them really.
I really appreciate the fact that I can watch Ronaldo play and I really respect him, but I don't understand how can he be compared to Messi. One is a legendary player, one of the best of all times without a single doubt, a goal scoring machine and a leader for his team, for sure. The other one is a genius. There are a few geniuses at sports, I'd say Jordan, Federer, Tom Brady, Maradona and Messi are geniuses. These people see things differently, their mind works faster and their decision making is unmatched.
You watch Messi play and nowadays he always takes the right choice or sees passes we can't even see from the TV nor the stands while dribbling between people.
On his day and being inspired there's no way for any team in the world to stop Messi, as he dribbles and passes the ball like nobody else in the world, so the variety of damage he can cause is way huger than Ronaldo's. Not to mention his ability to score ni many ways and with both legs.
You can't compare him to any other player, Maradona wasn't as good as a goalscorer, Pele wasn't as good as a creator. Messi is a mix between both, dribbles and has the vision of Diego and scores like Pele. His technique and ability/instinct is just as good as anyone. I'd say Ronaldo only has instinct to score goals and then he's a really good player in other aspects but he's not an elite creator player, he's just ok. It's a reality that Ronaldo cannot create something out of nowhere, he needs to be provided most of time, since 2009 or so. On the other hand Messi does thing which nobody expects and goes through people in a way you can't just believe it.
You watch Messi play and nowadays he always takes the right choice or sees passes we can't even see from the TV nor the stands while dribbling between people.
On his day and being inspired there's no way for any team in the world to stop Messi, as he dribbles and passes the ball like nobody else in the world, so the variety of damage he can cause is way huger than Ronaldo's. Not to mention his ability to score ni many ways and with both legs.
You can't compare him to any other player, Maradona wasn't as good as a goalscorer, Pele wasn't as good as a creator. Messi is a mix between both, dribbles and has the vision of Diego and scores like Pele. His technique and ability/instinct is just as good as anyone. I'd say Ronaldo only has instinct to score goals and then he's a really good player in other aspects but he's not an elite creator player, he's just ok. It's a reality that Ronaldo cannot create something out of nowhere, he needs to be provided most of time, since 2009 or so. On the other hand Messi does thing which nobody expects and goes through people in a way you can't just believe it.
For me a person who was not inspired for a world cup final can not be thought of as a GOAT.
Ronaldo doesn’t give you copa titles at all. He would get no service whatsoever on that NT
As a matter of fact when Argentina lost in the copa finals it was to Chile both times in penalties
When Portugal played Chile last time? They lost...in penalties...with Ronaldo
Hell, Portugal won ten games in a row WITHOUT Ronaldo recently and won a FINAL without him.
That Portugal team had a much better manager and a better midfield that was actually cohesive.
Argentina has always been a mess, swapping out managers on a yearly basis. The AFA was a train wreck.
Again, it really says something that when Ronaldo either doesn’t play in the final or is shockingly mediocre in one his teams are still able to get trophies. If he performed for Argentina like that in their finals they wouldn’t be getting trophies. Eder scoring as oppose to Higuain is the difference on the NT trophy cabinet.
Right, the guy who gets player of the tournament wasn’t inspired to be a GOAT.
Meanwhile Ronaldo also hasn’t scored during the knockout rounds of the WC yet he’s a GOAT?
It is bizarre but Messi has only played in 4 of them (as many as Ronaldo has played Euros)
The 2016 was a 100 year anniversary one otherwise it is normally every 4 years.
As for why there is one in 2020:
The tournament will take place from 12 June to 12 July 2020. Starting from this edition, the tournament will switch to be held in even-numbered years, with the next edition taking place in 2024.
Can only speak for myself, but yes, absolutely. In almost any scenario Messi gives you better chances of winning than CR.
Would have been fun if Ronaldo left for Barcelona instead of Madrid when he left United.
In a glorified friendly, basically. You're acting like this is the same thing!
Which ten games are these?
They may have had some dramas, but Argentina had the better team. Come on!
Portugal praised without Ronaldo:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...g-in-nations-league-without-ronaldo/38127717/
As for “it’s a glorified friendly” both teams fielded full squads. Ronaldo instead of Messi doesn’t win those copas either
As for “it’s a better team come on!” It’s an incredibly flawed team. Would a better team struggle to nearly MISS the World Cup without Messi?!
Argentina had to scrape by on a Messi Hatrick just to qualify. Compare Argentina’s record with Messi and without him. It’s betond lopsided.
Now conpare Portugal’s with and without Ronaldo. Again, ronaldo was instrumental in getting Portugal to that final, but Portugal is so much more cohesive than Argentina and has a much better
Manager and midfield.
Argentina’s team fits like a bunch of triangles into a square peg
This is just such weird criteria to set for a player. As if all the hundreds of other games dont matter. I dont think Cruyff won his wc final either but thats not slight on his legacy. Players like Best never got a chance to shine in a WC.
Anyway Messi has shone in many other big games and finals.
Why is Ronaldo greater than someone like Pele? Is it because the standards of football is considered lower?
You said Portugal won 10 games in a row WITHOUT Ronaldo (emphasis yours).
Where did that come from?
I know you asked about an average team. I'd pick Messi regardless of the strength of the team, but particularly for an average team precisely for the reason I mentioned in my previous post. I think he would do more for the team because he can both score and create. If the weakness is upfront, Messi can give you goals any time. If the weakness is in midfield, he can pull strings from there because he may be the best passer in the world. So regardless of how average my team was, I'd be more comfortable having a player who does nearly everything perfectly and who can lift up both my midfield and attack pretty much simultaneously.
Your claim that Ronaldo would surely win the Copa for Argentina and likely the World Cup is an assumption that cannot be proven or disproven. What I can tell you about the NT side of the argument is that Portugal are better set up, they are more organized while Argentina are a mess. This is a sport played by 11 players so team chemistry and tactical quality are a must if a team is to win something. This shouldn't be in dispute. Argentina were so poor that they needed Messi's hat trick to qualify for the World Cup. This is not a stick to beat Messi with. I don't know if Ronaldo or Messi would win something had their positions been reversed, but I do know that if you show me a team that is talented but disjointed and a less talented team that is more disciplined and organized, I'd put my money on the latter, regardless of Messi/Ronaldo.
With all that said, I can still argue that, unlike Ronaldo, Messi was one goal away from becoming world champion. Surely it's more difficult to play the World Cup than it is to play the EURO? It doesn't seem logical to me that Messi's four finals with Argentina are written off as a failure while Ronaldo reached two finals with Portugal, lost the first and missed the second due to injury. I mean, the argument is that Messi cannot be considered the greatest because he didn't win anything with Argentina, but at the same time people point out that if he had scored just one goal he could have won the World Cup. Doesn't the argument fall apart there? If one ball rolls into the net Messi is bigger than Maradona, but if that ball rolls a bit to the side his spell with Argentina is a sad failure? Shouldn't the argument be based on more than that? Seems like very weak foundations to me. How many goals would Ronaldo need for his Portugal team to reach the World Cup final? Messi reached it and therefore arguably outperformed Ronaldo on the NT level, just was unlucky not to win it in the end. This applies if you consider the World Cup to be a bigger tournament than the EURO.
Also, how does the Copa America stack up against the EURO? Three finals vs two. I get the argument that Portugal won and Argentina didn't, but Ronaldo didn't participate in the final that they won. So I'm not asking how Portugal outperformed Argentina, I'm asking how exactly did Ronaldo outperform Messi on the NT level, all things considered?
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Gonna find it for you buddy just heading off to work, gimme a bit and I’ll find it
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