Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Zehner]

What??? Only season where Madrid didn't have a worse squad than Barcelona they won the league and the Champions League. One season where Madrid didn't have a worse squad than Barcelona. ONE.

Ronaldo was 9 years in Spain with Messi, played 8 of the 9 years with a worse team around him and won more than him.

The only reason Barca may have had a better squad 8 out of 9 seasons is called Messi. If you take both Cristiano and Messi out of the equation, Real had a better squad after Neymar left until this season. That's only my opinion, of course, just like what you so conveniently presented as a fact in the cited post is yours.

Maybe we should also consider the managers both had. Cristiano never had to cope with guys like Valverde or Martino.

 

[Peyroteo]

Only in Peyroteo's world view a 50% probability has nothing to do with luck. Well, only if it fancies Ronaldo of course, otherwise you'd be called out for being bad with statistics I guess.

What the hell, surely you understand what I'm saying here ffs. 50% luck is throwing a coin in the air and hoping it falls on the side you want.

Playing a 50-50 game of football in which YOU play in means YOU have an effect on the outcome. That's not the same thing...

 

[Peyroteo]

The only reason Barca may have had a better squad 8 out of 9 seasons is called Messi. If you take both Cristiano and Messi out of the equation, Real had a better squad after Neymar left until this season. That's only my opinion, of course, just like what you so conveniently presented as a fact in the cited post is yours.

Neymar left 2 seasons ago... so instead of 8/9 seasons you believe 7/9. How someone could believe that Madrid squad in the last season that finished 17 points behind Barcelona was anywhere near its quality is beyond me.

You've seen this season how great they are. This shit midfield you saw this season was the exact same shit midfield playing in 2017-18 when you were saying this.

This is my favourite part:

Madrid has the best squad in the world, even if you take Ronaldo out and put another striker in. Just like Barcelona in 2009-11 had the best team even without Messi.

Exactly the same. 9 months later, nadaplete. No, they just all magically declined as soon as Ronaldo stepped foot in Turin wasn't it? Where's the best midfield in the world now? Where's the best squad in the world?

 

[Prometheus]

The only reason Barca may have had a better squad 8 out of 9 seasons is called Messi. If you take both Cristiano and Messi out of the equation, Real had a better squad after Neymar left until this season. That's only my opinion, of course, just like what you so conveniently presented as a fact in the cited post is yours.

I can't decipher this post. You think the Barca team that went 37 league games in a row unbeaten in the league was inferior to Madrid? Because Neymar left at the end of 16/17. Also how about 2013-2017?

 

[Zehner]

Neymar left 2 seasons ago... so instead of 8/9 seasons you believe 7/9. How someone could believe that Madrid squad in the last season that finished 17 points behind Barcelona was anywhere near its quality is beyond me.

You've seen this season how great they are. This shit midfield you saw this season was the exact same shit midfield playing in 2017-18 when you were saying this.

This is my favourite part:



Exactly the same. 9 months later, nadaplete. No, they just all magically declined as soon as Ronaldo stepped foot in Turin wasn't it? Where's the best midfield in the world now? Where's the best squad in the world?

See, if I say that Reals squad was better after Neymar left that doesn't mean that Barca's was better before that. For me they are equals from 2013 onwards until Neymar left. That's 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 for Barca, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 about equal and 2017 and 18 for Real.

Well, they haven't brought in a great striker, have they? They still have Isco, Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Ramos, Varane, Bale, Carvajal and so forth and in the form of last year, every single one of these players will be a starter for every other club out there bar maybe Isco and Bale.

How they finished 17 points behind Barca you ask? Well, wasn't it you that tirelessly argued that Real didnÄ't care as much about the league when people brought up how Ronaldo is miles behind Messi in direct duels? Or that he wasn't all that great in the league? That Barca consistently got the better of Real while both were there?

Just compare these teams like for like and you'll see that Barca is simply inferior in many positions. The only ones you could make a case for during the respective time frame are Ter Stegen (vs. Navas), Busquets (vs. Casemiro), Suarez (vs. Benzema) and of course Messi (vs. Bale) himself. Besides those 4, Real had superior players in every position. Varane and Ramos vs. Busquets and Umtiti, Marcelo vs. Alba, Carvajal vs. Roberto/aging Alves, Kroos vs. Rakitic, Modric vs. aging Iniesta, Cristiano vs. whoever they played on the left. Now tell me how that is a clearly superior squad.

 

[Peyroteo]

Wait, I thought that Madrid were the undisputed kings of European football over the last five years? What gives?

They are, they won it... they did not in any way shape or form have a better squad than Barcelona for 4 of those 5 years though.

Especially last year, saying Madrid had a better squad than Barcelona last year was insanity.

Maybe we should also consider the managers both had. Cristiano never had to cope with guys like Valverde or Martino.

Ronaldo would love to be coached by Valverde. Benitez and destruction mode Mourinho weren't any better btw and the best thing that can happen to a forward in modern football is to play under Pep Guardiola which is a privilidge Ronaldo didn't get. I agree Barcelona have had some bad choices though but if Messi wants Valverde gone, Valverde would be gone. He has more than enough power for that.

 

[Zehner]

What the hell, surely you understand what I'm saying here ffs. 50% luck is throwing a coin in the air and hoping it falls on the side you want.

Playing a 50-50 game of football in which YOU play in means YOU have an effect on the outcome. That's not the same thing...

So how do you explain the 50% remaining chance of losing then if it is not down to skill or luck?

Truth is, it is down to match luck, simple as that. That's also why invincible seasons are that incredibly rare. Thing is, in league competitions that's irrelevant since blunders won't mean you are out of the race, in cups it's not.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

362 pages in and the same debates are happening that happened on page 1.

Who played in the better team, what they have won and showing stats.

The same argument going on for over 14000 posts. We have gotten nowhere.

 

[Zehner]

Ronaldo would love to be coached by Valverde. Benitez and destruction mode Mourinho weren't any better btw and the best thing that can happen to a forward in modern football is to play under Pep Guardiola. I agree Barcelona have had some bad choices though but if Messi wants Valverde gone, Valverde would be gone. He has more than enough power for that.

Even if that was the case, what on earth has that to do with his footballing ability? Would he be a better player if he would use his power to force the coach out? What kind of mental gymnastics is this bullshit?

You are creative, that much is clear.

 

[Prometheus]

See, if I say that Reals squad was better after Neymar left that doesn't mean that Barca's was better before that. For me they are equals from 2013 onwards until Neymar left. That's 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 for Barca, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 about equal and 2017 and 18 for Real.

...

How they finished 17 points behind Barca you ask? Well, wasn't it you that tirelessly argued that Real didnÄ't care as much about the league when people brought up how Ronaldo is miles behind Messi in direct duels? Or that he wasn't all that great in the league? That Barca consistently got the better of Real while both were there?

Yeah, this answers my other post!

 

[Daysleeper]

2018 Barca were the most overrated team of the decade. Dire football, toothless in attack. Just terrible.

 

[Prometheus]

2018 Barca were the most overrated team of the decade. Dire football, toothless in attack. Just terrible.

Real was worse! In fact, if that describes Barca then I'd love to hear how you'd describe that Madrid!

 

[Peyroteo]

See, if I say that Reals squad was better after Neymar left that doesn't mean that Barca's was better before that. For me they are equals from 2013 onwards until Neymar left. That's 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 for Barca, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 about equal and 2017 and 18 for Real.

Well, they haven't brought in a great striker, have they? They still have Isco, Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Ramos, Varane, Bale, Carvajal and so forth and in the form of last year, every single one of these players will be a starter for every other club out there bar maybe Isco and Bale.

How they finished 17 points behind Barca you ask? Well, wasn't it you that tirelessly argued that Real didnÄ't care as much about the league when people brought up how Ronaldo is miles behind Messi in direct duels? Or that he wasn't all that great in the league? That Barca consistently got the better of Real while both were there?

Just compare these teams like for like and you'll see that Barca is simply inferior in many positions. The only ones you could make a case for during the respective time frame are Ter Stegen (vs. Navas), Busquets (vs. Casemiro), Suarez (vs. Benzema) and of course Messi (vs. Bale) himself. Besides those 4, Real had superior players in every position. Varane and Ramos vs. Busquets and Umtiti, Marcelo vs. Alba, Carvajal vs. Roberto/aging Alves, Kroos vs. Rakitic, Modric vs. aging Iniesta, Cristiano vs. whoever they played on the left. Now tell me how that is a clearly superior squad.

Last season?

Ter Stegen > Navas
Carvajal > Sergi Roberto
Pique > Varane
Ramos > Umtiti
Alba > Marcelo
Busquets > Casemiro
Rakitic >>>>>>>> Kroos, not even remotely close this one. Been saying it for ages.
Modric > Coutinho
Messi > Isco
Ronaldo > Dembele
Suarez > Benzema

Marcelo was exactly the same player he is now last season in the league, he did turn it up remarkably in the CL so I'd say he wasn't a better player but had a better season due to his impact on Madrid's story. You can revert that if you want.

The only ones you could make a case for during the respective time frame are Ter Stegen (vs. Navas), Busquets (vs. Casemiro), Suarez (vs. Benzema) and of course Messi (vs. Bale) himself. Besides those 4, Real had superior players in every position.

Ter Stegen over Navas
Pique over Varane
Busquets over Casemiro
Rakitic over Kroos
Suarez over Benzema
Messi over Bale/Isco

Those ones for sure, then Alba over Marcelo in terms of consistency and I'd even say for the first 6 or 7 months Umtiti had been better than Ramos while Barcelona were keeping an insane defensive record and Madrid kept conceding for fun as usual.

But yes, Barcelona had a better squad than Real Madrid without a doubt last season. Especially with all of the injuries and suspensions that happened.

 

[Red14Devil9]

I think that Ronaldo is a better striker while Messi is a better overall player.

 

[Peyroteo]

Even if that was the case, what on earth has that to do with his footballing ability? Would he be a better player if he would use his power to force the coach out? What kind of mental gymnastics is this bullshit?

You are creative, that much is clear.

I thank God every day for Ronaldo running Queiroz and Paulo Bento out of the national team, same way that I'm sure Madrid fans are delighted it happened with Benitez in Madrid's dressing room.

I didn't say it makes him a better or worse player. I'm saying you can't say Messi having a terrible manager (which he doesn't) makes him look better when it's up to him if the manager stays or not.

 

[Zehner]

Won't agree on that. I have Kroos comfortably over Rakitic. Second best midfielder in the world during the last five years and that's only because Modric almost reached Iniesta/Xavi heights. Rakitic is a tidy player but has nothing on him.

Same goes for Marcelo. Best leftback I've seen in my lifetime. Yes, he wasn't consistent in the league. But neither was Ronaldo. Yet you excuse the latter because his focus was on the CL but refuse to do the same for Marcelo. Quite ironic but I'm sure you have a good answer to that.

 

[Zehner]

I thank God every day for Ronaldo running Queiroz and Paulo Bento out of the national team, same way that I'm sure Madrid fans are delighted it happened with Benitez in Madrid's dressing room.

I didn't say it makes him a better or worse player. I'm saying you can't say Messi having a terrible manager (which he doesn't) makes him look better when it's up to him if the manager stays or not.

Of course I can because I'm talking about the player. What he does or does not off the field has no influence on his footballing ability and never will.

Do I think he'd be better of with another manager? Yes. Can you criticize him for that? Maybe, after all it is not his competence but you have a point. But that still has nothing to do with the footballer Messi.

 

[Peyroteo]

So how do you explain the 50% remaining chance of losing then if it is not down to skill or luck?

Truth is, it is down to match luck, simple as that. That's also why invincible seasons are that incredibly rare. Thing is, in league competitions that's irrelevant since blunders won't mean you are out of the race, in cups it's not.

I know that but they play a part in it.

Were Madrid lucky that Bayern gifted them two goals or were they incredible at taking advantage of it? Were they lucky Bayern missed plenty of chances or did they make it as tough as possible and put their bodies on the line? You make your own luck sometimes.

There's obviously an element of luck that's bigger than in the league, no shit. It's not as big as you make it out to be though. Downplaying what happens in cup competitions to luck is ignorant.

 

[Daysleeper]

Real was worse! In fact, if that describes Barca then I'd love to hear how you'd describe that Madrid!

Real was terrible, last year was a brutal year for La Liga. 2018 Real are one of the worst UCL Champions of the past 20 years, oof.

That Salah injury changed everything.

 

[Peyroteo]

Won't agree on that. I have Kroos comfortably over Rakitic. Second best midfielder in the world during the last five years and that's only because Modric almost reached Iniesta/Xavi heights. Rakitic is a tidy player but has nothing on him.

Same goes for Marcelo. Best leftback I've seen in my lifetime. Yes, he wasn't consistent in the league. But neither was Ronaldo. Yet you excuse the latter because his focus was on the CL but refuse to do the same for Marcelo. Quite ironic but I'm sure you have a good answer to that.

I do excuse Marcelo for it. Should have made the top 10 in the Ballon D'Or even with a crap World Cup imo, you can search my posts and check I was calling for it. He was geniunely crap in the league though while Ronaldo just dropped his level slightly but nowhere near that much.

What's ironic is that you excuse Marcelo for his 2/10 performances week after week in the league while praising him for his great CL performances and putting him above the consistently great Jordi Alba. Same for Ramos and Pique.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I find messi so darn boring to watch doing the same damn dribbling technique against every god damn defender.

I guess it's the - 'if it doesn't need fixing then don't fix it' ethos but my god it's like watching a mouse beat elephants by having better dribbling technique. Whilst it's no doubt a hard thing to do and an attribute only seen consistently by messi - I just don't get the beauty aspect of it all that much. I'd rather have some bycicle kicks and a 40 yard long range kick than beating the same type of defenders in the Spanish league that give him all the space in the world to dribble at them.

And that's why a lot of people like me want to see him in the Premiere League - not because he wouldn't be a success - because he would; but I don't see him consistently doing this mouse type dribbling he does in a league that does not give attackers space freely as some of the other leagues do.

Don't care how much of an idiot I sound like but whilst I no doubt regard messi as a fantastic player with the ability to do some jaw dropping moments - going through 3 or 4 defenders over an over again just isn't all that impressive to me - it's not like we haven't seen players do it before even at our own club is it? It's the consistency of his ability that people find great in messi and that consistency is easy as F doing the same thing in the same league and same type of player.

Just doesn't wow me all that much & is just a mouse with a growth hormone injection being wondered by a bunch of elephants.

 

[Charles Miller]

Last season?

Ter Stegen > Navas
Carvajal > Sergi Roberto
Pique > Varane
Ramos > Umtiti
Alba > Marcelo
Busquets > Casemiro
Rakitic >>>>>>>> Kroos, not even remotely close this one. Been saying it for ages.
Modric > Coutinho
Messi > Isco
Ronaldo > Dembele
Suarez > Benzema

Marcelo was exactly the same player he is now last season in the league, he did turn it up remarkably in the CL so I'd say he wasn't a better player but had a better season due to his impact on Madrid's story. You can revert that if you want.



Ter Stegen over Navas
Pique over Varane
Busquets over Casemiro
Rakitic over Kroos
Suarez over Benzema
Messi over Bale/Isco

Those ones for sure, then Alba over Marcelo in terms of consistency and I'd even say for the first 6 or 7 months Umtiti had been better than Ramos while Barcelona were keeping an insane defensive record and Madrid kept conceding for fun as usual.

But yes, Barcelona had a better squad than Real Madrid without a doubt last season. Especially with all of the injuries and suspensions that happened.

See, in general you make solid points but you can't resist the tentation to make some of the best players in the world in their positions to look awful in order to praise Ronaldo. You dont need to do that. They were winning mostly because Ronaldo was there but it doesn't mean they are not top players. Marcelo is just getting old and he was always lazy and injury prone, but if you you watch the games he decided it has nothing to do with any other player, it was always some moment of individual talent. And Rakitic is not better than Kroos. Rakitic should not be mentioned in the same page as Kroos.

 

[Canagel]

362 pages in and the same debates are happening that happened on page 1.

Who played in the better team, what they have won and showing stats.

The same argument going on for over 14000 posts. We have gotten nowhere.

it's a waste of time. The debates will continue until we go to our graves.

 

[BurtSpangle]

I find messi so darn boring to watch doing the same damn dribbling technique against every god damn defender.

I guess it's the - 'if it doesn't need fixing then don't fix it' ethos but my god it's like watching a mouse beat elephants by having better dribbling technique. Whilst it's no doubt a hard thing to do and an attribute only seen consistently by messi - I just don't get the beauty aspect of it all that much. I'd rather have some bycicle kicks and a 40 yard long range kick than beating the same type of defenders in the Spanish league that give him all the space in the world to dribble at them.

And that's why a lot of people like me want to see him in the Premiere League - not because he wouldn't be a success - because he would; but I don't see him consistently doing this mouse type dribbling he does in a league that does not give attackers space freely as some of the other leagues do.

Don't care how much of an idiot I sound like but whilst I no doubt regard messi as a fantastic player with the ability to do some jaw dropping moments - going through 3 or 4 defenders over an over again just isn't all that impressive to me - it's not like we haven't seen players do it before even at our own club is it? It's the consistency of his ability that people find great in messi and that consistency is easy as F doing the same thing in the same league and same type of player.

Just doesn't wow me all that much & is just a mouse with a growth hormone injection being wondered by a bunch of elephants.

This might be one of the worst posts I've seen on my short time on this forum. Congratulations, I guess?

 

[Daysleeper]

I find messi so darn boring to watch doing the same damn dribbling technique against every god damn defender.

I guess it's the - 'if it doesn't need fixing then don't fix it' ethos but my god it's like watching a mouse beat elephants by having better dribbling technique. Whilst it's no doubt a hard thing to do and an attribute only seen consistently by messi - I just don't get the beauty aspect of it all that much. I'd rather have some bycicle kicks and a 40 yard long range kick than beating the same type of defenders in the Spanish league that give him all the space in the world to dribble at them.

And that's why a lot of people like me want to see him in the Premiere League - not because he wouldn't be a success - because he would; but I don't see him consistently doing this mouse type dribbling he does in a league that does not give attackers space freely as some of the other leagues do.

Don't care how much of an idiot I sound like but whilst I no doubt regard messi as a fantastic player with the ability to do some jaw dropping moments - going through 3 or 4 defenders over an over again just isn't all that impressive to me - it's not like we haven't seen players do it before even at our own club is it? It's the consistency of his ability that people find great in messi and that consistency is easy as F doing the same thing in the same league and same type of player.

Just doesn't wow me all that much & is just a mouse with a growth hormone injection being wondered by a bunch of elephants.

He lays waste to EPL teams all the time in CL. Is amongst the highest goal scorers against the top 6 in England and doesn't even play there

He would absolutely be making Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime out of defenders over there.

 

[Josh 76]

362 pages in and the same debates are happening that happened on page 1.

Who played in the better team, what they have won and showing stats.

The same argument going on for over 14000 posts. We have gotten nowhere.

What a good post to close this thread.

 

[Peyroteo]

See, in general you make solid points but you can't resist the tentation to make some of the best players in the world in their positions to look awful in order to praise Ronaldo. You dont need to do that. They were winning mostly because Ronaldo was there but it doesn't mean they are not top players. Marcelo is just getting old and he was always lazy and injury prone, but if you you watch the games he decided it has nothing to do with any other player, it was always some moment of individual talent. And Rakitic is not better than Kroos. Rakitic should not be mentioned in the same page as Kroos.

Rakitic has been twice the player Kroos is in the past year and a half. I have nothing against Kroos, it's just the truth.

He's been at his current level for ages now. Only people that don't see it are the one who don't want to see it.

I'll even go as far as saying he won't be a starter for Madrid next season after Zidane brings in Eriksen or Milinkovic-Savic.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

He lays waste to EPL teams all the time in CL. Is amongst the highest goal scorers against the top 6 in England and doesn't even play there

He would absolutely be making Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime out of defenders over there.

Again - I didn't see he would fail against EPL clubs - he would be a success. But why people call him the greatest is not because of the amount of goals he scores (Ronaldo would be better then) - but the type of goal he scores.

And that - the goals against getafe, Eibar, Athletic Bilbao, Zaragoza that he rinse and repeats just wouldn't happen with consistency at a different league. Don't get me wrong - he would still be this 30-40 goal season player - but the type of goal he would score would no doubt be nowhere near the same level of consistency he produces in the La liga. It's that consistency and type of goal that makes people rate him like a god. Outside of the La liga's poor clubs his best goals were against Bayern and Real Madrid in copa del rey's. All other goals are good goals but nothing overly special. The good ones are against the completely lost defensive lines in the Spanish league.

 

[Peyroteo]

He lays waste to EPL teams all the time in CL. Is amongst the highest goal scorers against the top 6 in England and doesn't even play there

He would absolutely be making Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime out of defenders over there.

Playing against a Premier League team is not the same as playing for a Premier League team.

La Liga teams are technical, great on the ball. Premier League teams are intense, athletic and very physical as a general rule. Not hard to see why people think Messi would have a tougher time in the Premier League...

I'm sure if he played for City under Pep he'd have absolutely no problem for example but it's a complete shame we haven't seen him in more extreme circumstances throughout his career playing a very different style of football with a different philosophy surrounding the club.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

He lays waste to EPL teams all the time in CL. Is amongst the highest goal scorers against the top 6 in England and doesn't even play there

He would absolutely be making Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime out of defenders over there.

You know there's a difference between teams playing in the CL and the teams who fight for a point week in week out. There are certain tactics with which teams approach a game in the CL and then there are tactics which could be completely different when they are playing in the league.

Not saying that Messi couldn't do it in England but considering the physicality and intensity of the league, its not as easy to say as you have laid it out in you post.

 

[Daysleeper]

You know there's a difference between teams playing in the CL and the teams who fight for a point week in week out. There are certain tactics with which teams approach a game in the CL and then there are tactics which could be completely different when they are playing in the league.

Not saying that Messi couldn't do it in England but considering the physicality and intensity of the league, its not as easy to say as you have laid it out in you post.

If Aguero, Salah, Hazard, and Aubamayang can do it then so can Messi.

Imagine Messi on the current City team, oof.

 

[Daysleeper]

Playing against a Premier League team is not the same as playing for a Premier League team.

La Liga teams are technical, great on the ball. Premier League teams are intense, athletic and very physical as a general rule. Not hard to see why people think Messi would have a tougher time in the Premier League...

I'm sure if he played for City under Pep he'd have absolutely no problem for example but it's a complete shame we haven't seen him in more extreme circumstances throughout his career playing a very different style of football with a different philosophy surrounding the club.

While I never want him to leave Barca, it would be interesting for him to try a season in the EPL just to see what it would be like.

 

[Prometheus]

The two most active Messi fans on this thread don't think Barca had a better team than Madrid at any year in the period 2012-2018! That's incredible! Obviously I respect this opinion, but nothing could illustrate more how our perceptions of football differ fundamentally perhaps.

 

[berbatrick]

I find messi so darn boring to watch doing the same damn dribbling technique against every god damn defender.

I guess it's the - 'if it doesn't need fixing then don't fix it' ethos but my god it's like watching a mouse beat elephants by having better dribbling technique. Whilst it's no doubt a hard thing to do and an attribute only seen consistently by messi - I just don't get the beauty aspect of it all that much. I'd rather have some bycicle kicks and a 40 yard long range kick than beating the same type of defenders in the Spanish league that give him all the space in the world to dribble at them.

And that's why a lot of people like me want to see him in the Premiere League - not because he wouldn't be a success - because he would; but I don't see him consistently doing this mouse type dribbling he does in a league that does not give attackers space freely as some of the other leagues do.

Don't care how much of an idiot I sound like but whilst I no doubt regard messi as a fantastic player with the ability to do some jaw dropping moments - going through 3 or 4 defenders over an over again just isn't all that impressive to me - it's not like we haven't seen players do it before even at our own club is it? It's the consistency of his ability that people find great in messi and that consistency is easy as F doing the same thing in the same league and same type of player.

Just doesn't wow me all that much & is just a mouse with a growth hormone injection being wondered by a bunch of elephants.

Wait what? His dribbling isn't impressive? I don't even know how to respond to that.


Anyway:
> defenders in the Spanish league that give him all the space in the world to dribble at them.


It's kindof his speciality.

And he does shoot from long range but it's easily the least interesting thing he does, only number 12 on that video is actually unique and extraordinary.

 

[Stocar]

They are, they won it... they did not in any way shape or form have a better squad than Barcelona for 4 of those 5 years though.

But how have they been able to win 4/5 times what is supposedly the most difficult competition, and Barca with the better squad weren't even close to that? How come they weren't able to replicate that success in a supposedly less difficult competition? It just doesn't add up.

For what it's worth, I don't think Madrid had lesser squad. I think they had assembled the most versatile and balanced squad there was. Anyway, that is an inane argument as both teams had top squads. In the end, Messi's persistent productivity was the main reason that Barcelona won all those league titles, and Ronaldo's talismanic presence was one of the main reasons Madrid got all those European cups.

I have my opinion on what has more substance and was less dependent on happenstance. Other people may disagree, but I find it unconvincing. For me the domestic league is the most reliable barometer of quality in football.

 

[Zehner]

I know that but they play a part in it.

Were Madrid lucky that Bayern gifted them two goals or were they incredible at taking advantage of it? Were they lucky Bayern missed plenty of chances or did they make it as tough as possible and put their bodies on the line? You make your own luck sometimes.

There's obviously an element of luck that's bigger than in the league, no shit. It's not as big as you make it out to be though. Downplaying what happens in cup competitions to luck is ignorant.

I do excuse Marcelo for it. Should have made the top 10 in the Ballon D'Or even with a crap World Cup imo, you can search my posts and check I was calling for it. He was geniunely crap in the league though while Ronaldo just dropped his level slightly but nowhere near that much.

What's ironic is that you excuse Marcelo for his 2/10 performances week after week in the league while praising him for his great CL performances and putting him above the consistently great Jordi Alba. Same for Ramos and Pique.

I don't excuse him, I just say he's a better football player than Jordi Alba. That shouldn't be understood as downplaying Alba because I really rate him but Marcelo is simply something else. As good as Jordi is, he's not capable of what Marcelo can do while I can very well imagine Marcelo fulfilling the role Alba is occupying at Barca.

 

[Daysleeper]

The two most active Messi fans on this thread don't think Barca had a better team than Madrid at any year in the period 2012-2018! That's incredible! Obviously I respect this opinion, but nothing could illustrate more how our perceptions of football differ fundamentally perhaps.

2015 Barca blows away any Madrid team. 2016 Barca May have an argument over 2016 Madrid for sure. I’m sure you’re referring to some other Barca fans though

 

[MJJ]

But how have they been able to win 4/5 times what is supposedly the most difficult competition, and Barca with the better squad weren't even close to that? How come they weren't able to replicate that success in a supposedly less difficult competition? It just doesn't add up.

For what it's worth, I don't think Madrid had lesser squad. I think they had assembled the most versatile and balanced squad there was. Anyway, that is an inane argument as both teams had top squads. In the end, Messi's persistent productivity was that tip at the scale that got Barcelona all those league titles, and Ronaldo's talismanic presence was one of the main reasons Madrid got all those European cups.

I have my opinion on what has more substance and was less dependent on happenstance. Other people may disagree, but I find it unconvincing. For me the domestic league is the most reliable barometer of quality in football.

Weaker teams always have a chance in a cup competition but very rarely in the league.

 

[Peyroteo]

But how have they been able to win 4/5 times what is supposedly the most difficult competition, and Barca with the better squad weren't even close to that? How come they weren't able to replicate that success in a supposedly less difficult competition? It just doesn't add up.

For what it's worth, I don't think Madrid had lesser squad. I think they had assembled the most versatile and balanced squad there was. Anyway, that is an inane argument as both teams had top squads. In the end, Messi's persistent productivity was the main reason that Barcelona won all those league titles, and Ronaldo's talismanic presence was one of the main reasons Madrid got all those European cups.

I have my opinion on what has more substance and was less dependent on happenstance. Other people may disagree, but I find it unconvincing. For me the domestic league is the most reliable barometer of quality in football.

It's completely different and they require completely different sets of skills.

League football is much more of a squad game, it benefits from a more defined philosophy while knockout football is less of a squad game and it values adaptability and opportunism.

 

[Prometheus]

2015 Barca blows away any Madrid team. 2016 Barca May have an argument over 2016 Madrid for sure. I’m sure you’re referring to some other Barca fans though

I agree, that was clearly the best team in the world at that point! And yeah you're obviously not included.