Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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berbatrick said:
Wait what? His dribbling isn't impressive? I don't even know how to respond to that.


Anyway:
> defenders in the Spanish league that give him all the space in the world to dribble at them.


It's kindof his speciality.

And he does shoot from long range but it's easily the least interesting thing he does, only number 12 on that video is actually unique and extraordinary.
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That's not what I'm saying - he's arguably the best dribbler of the ball ever.

Yet, why people rate his as the GOAT is not because the amount of goal he scores - its how he scores them. You look a bit deeper and see that his best goals are scored against some of the weakest team in an arguably very disproportionate league with very little defensive organisation, strength, physicality and athleticism.

Its not that Messi wouldn't score lots of goals on the PL - because he would - its just I don't see him swimming across the field 10 times a season past 10 players to tap it in past the goalkeeper.

Messi in the PL would score some great goals but less regularly than he does in the la liga whilst still scoring the same amount of goals he does in Spain overall. That's my opinion - I see him score goals against everyone but I only see him score those crazy technical goals in Spain and once in a while in Europe - nothing to write home about.

People see what he does against Getafe and eibar week in and week out and come the UCL next week see's him score a relatively normal goal and people go crazy at what a player he is. Messi at another league would score less wonder goals.
 
Peyroteo said:
It's completely different and they require completely different sets of skills.

League football is much more of a squad game, it benefits from a more defined philosophy while knockout football is less of a squad game and it values adaptability and opportunism.
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I agree, and these latter qualities you mention is where Ronaldo is better. But I also think that Barca were a bit better team during that time because they had Messi who is overall still the best player. I just give more value to the context of domestic league as it gives a larger sample size, equal conditions and generally a better platform to judge footballig qualities.
 
Aloysius's Back 3 said:
That's not what I'm saying - he's arguably the best dribbler of the ball ever.

Yet, why people rate his as the GOAT is not because the amount of goal he scores - its how he scores them. You look a bit deeper and see that his best goals are scored against some of the weakest team in an arguably very disproportionate league with very little defensive organisation, strength, physicality and athleticism.

Its not that Messi wouldn't score lots of goals on the PL - because he would - its just I don't see him swimming across the field 10 times a season past 10 players to tap it in past the goalkeeper.

Messi in the PL would score some great goals but less regularly than he does in the la liga whilst still scoring the same amount of goals he does in Spain overall. That's my opinion - I see him score goals against everyone but I only see him score those crazy technical goals in Spain and once in a while in Europe - nothing to write home about.

People see what he does against Getafe and eibar week in and week out and come the UCL next week see's him score a relatively normal goal and people go crazy at what a player he is. Messi at another league would score less wonder goals.
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He's the GOAT because of the package - the goalscoring amount, the dribbling quality, and the passing ability. He is a striker, playmaker, and tricky winger all-in-one, and all at a world-class level.
It's not because every goal of his involves dribbling. Neither Pele nor Mradona nor anyone outside a comic book plays like that.

So you can watch him being a top playmaker/solo dribbler wonderfully against big teams - Man City, Real Madrid, Bayern, Spurs, PSG since 2015, or amazing dribbler against Madrid, Milan, Arsenal in the past, you can see him score great goals against big teams - Real, Atletico, Chelsea, City and Arsenal since 2015 or Real, United, Milan, Bayern in the past. If you wanted a combination - here it is:

 
Aloysius's Back 3 said:
That's not what I'm saying - he's arguably the best dribbler of the ball ever.

Yet, why people rate his as the GOAT is not because the amount of goal he scores - its how he scores them. You look a bit deeper and see that his best goals are scored against some of the weakest team in an arguably very disproportionate league with very little defensive organisation, strength, physicality and athleticism.

Its not that Messi wouldn't score lots of goals on the PL - because he would - its just I don't see him swimming across the field 10 times a season past 10 players to tap it in past the goalkeeper.

Messi in the PL would score some great goals but less regularly than he does in the la liga whilst still scoring the same amount of goals he does in Spain overall. That's my opinion - I see him score goals against everyone but I only see him score those crazy technical goals in Spain and once in a while in Europe - nothing to write home about.

People see what he does against Getafe and eibar week in and week out and come the UCL next week see's him score a relatively normal goal and people go crazy at what a player he is. Messi at another league would score less wonder goals.
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Mate, for the vast majority of the last 15 years dribbling in the EPL was far easier than in La Liga because you had much more pace and no midfield pressing.

Just watch City, Chelsea and Liverpool. What Hazard, Salah, Sterling and Sane are doing to EPL defenders. If they can pull that of you can be sure Messi does the same.
 
Aloysius's Back 3 said:
That's not what I'm saying - he's arguably the best dribbler of the ball ever.

Yet, why people rate his as the GOAT is not because the amount of goal he scores - its how he scores them. You look a bit deeper and see that his best goals are scored against some of the weakest team in an arguably very disproportionate league with very little defensive organisation, strength, physicality and athleticism.

Its not that Messi wouldn't score lots of goals on the PL - because he would - its just I don't see him swimming across the field 10 times a season past 10 players to tap it in past the goalkeeper.

Messi in the PL would score some great goals but less regularly than he does in the la liga whilst still scoring the same amount of goals he does in Spain overall. That's my opinion - I see him score goals against everyone but I only see him score those crazy technical goals in Spain and once in a while in Europe - nothing to write home about.

People see what he does against Getafe and eibar week in and week out and come the UCL next week see's him score a relatively normal goal and people go crazy at what a player he is. Messi at another league would score less wonder goals.
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Fact is, in a league where the best attackers play, no one else scores the type of goals he does in La Liga, Ronaldo played there for however many seasons and seldom did - of course he's more likely to score a wonder goal where he dribbles a bunch of players vs non elite teams, it's easier and he plays against them more often, but he has also done it against Real Madrid, Brasil, Bayern, Arsenal, AC Milan, Atletico Madrid etc.

Also people don't just rate him as the best just because he is probably the best dribbler of all time, it's also because he is the best playmaker in the world too as well as being a goal machine.
 
Messi doesn't pad his stats. In fact, if there's one player for whom I'd say definitely does not do this is Messi. His every season is the same, never discriminating between competitions and opponents.

Let's just take the last two La Liga seasons (I can't be bothered to research further): in 16/17 he failed to score against only two clubs out of 19 (Malaga and Granada), but he only played one game against them (suspension vs Granada, the flu against Malaga). In 17/18 he failed to score against three clubs (Getafe, Malaga again and Valencia), but against one of them he played only one game (Malaga). So, in the last two league seasons the only club Messi failed to score against in two games over a league campaign was Valencia.

Messi is known for breaking these records, being the player that scores against the most opponents. In other words, spreading his output evenly throughout teams and competitions. I don't see stat-padding there, particularly when he gives penalties to team-mates, which he's done several times over the last few years (Neymar, Suarez, Mascherano come to mind). Some of these were in situations when Messi could have achieved a hat-trick, but instead decided to give the goal to someone else. And he often does this when the player needs it (goal drought, low on confidence). Also, the penalty he "took" in 15/16 when he passed it to Suarez...

The suggestion that Messi pads his stats against small teams just may be the most insane thing I've read in this thread.

A close second is the idea that Ronaldo's 9 years in Spain were more successful than Messi's. Messi won 24 titles in this time (13 major ones - Liga, CL, Copa) while Ronaldo won 16 titles (8 major ones). I counted the Copa del Rey as a major title because it forms part of the Treble. It seems kind of silly to me to exclude it as a major title when Madrid celebrated it so much in 2010/11.

So, during their 9 years together in La Liga, Messi won more titles, won more Clasicos (14-8) and more individual awards (15-10). And this is just stat-based, never mind the actual difference in quality and how much Messi carries Barcelona. How Ronaldo comes out of this as having been more successful is beyond me.
 
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Daysleeper said:
Hell, look at Messi against City in 2015. He didn't even score and people still talk about that performance from time to time. Absolutely incredible.

I can't think of a single match where Ronaldo didn't score where people still gave him that much praise.
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Because the main currency used for Ronaldo is goals. Unfortunately, that alone wont give you a seat next to Diego and Pele. He is and will be viewed as one of the greatest of all time, he just wont be eating at the very top table.
Peyroteo said:
Playing against a Premier League team is not the same as playing for a Premier League team.

La Liga teams are technical, great on the ball. Premier League teams are intense, athletic and very physical as a general rule. Not hard to see why people think Messi would have a tougher time in the Premier League...

I'm sure if he played for City under Pep he'd have absolutely no problem for example but it's a complete shame we haven't seen him in more extreme circumstances throughout his career playing a very different style of football with a different philosophy surrounding the club.
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People are still going on about this intense physical premier league. Pep Guardiolas Man City (since he came) average more points per game than any team in premier league history (and its not close). On the pitch, we have never seen a more dominant team on the pitch in England. He's doing so with a bunch of midgets. Do you know that out of their 100 point team last season, only TWO of their regular outfield players were over 6 foot? Raheem Sterling and especially Bernado Silva are killing the league this (2 of the least physically imposing players you can find). If they can do that, Messi would kill premier league defenders. Look at Salah, Aguero and Hazard, are they affected by the scary big tough defenders? Its all a fallacy. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if Messi scored more wonder goals here.
 
personally, adaptation to EPL actually used to be legit question when discussing whether Messi would be equally dominant here, but it's just not anymore. big 4 is a thing of past, now it's just another league where you have one super rich club that toys with the most of it's competition. and let's face it, there's only one club who can afford him and that's City so playing there under Guardiola again wouldn't be any different than playing for Barca or Juventus or Bayern or PSG.

they would destroy the rest of the league just like they have done without him and doubters would just repeat what they do most of the time anyway: "it's easy to score that much in such a dominant team." the thing is, Messi and Ronaldo will never play for clubs like Arsenal or Inter, they just can't afford them. only the biggest and richest clubs are reserved for them. and that's what's football basically is today, 4 or 5 biggest and richest clubs against the rest of the world.

there's also no teams like Stoke anymore and some of the league's best defenders in last couple of seasons came from la liga anyway, the league he tore apart; not that it needs to be mentioned what he did to us couple of times, or Arsenal, or Tottenham most recently. if anything, Atletico is more physical than any EPL side today and he scores against them regularly.
 
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That argument was always a fallacy anyway. You have guys coming over from la liga like Cazorla, Aguero, David Silva,etc who have bossed the league and are far inferior to Messi. The argument that he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality of the league is nonsense based on that too as those players have a similar profile and build to him. Sanchez at his best was also doing fantastic in the EPL and he's even smaller than Messi.
 
Messi has played with better players domestically and internationally but its worth considering the managers

Sir Alex, Pellegrini, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Allegri
vs
Rijkaard, Guardiola, Tito, Roura, Martino, Luis Enrique, Valverde

The gap in quality of managers is far greater than the gap in quality of players. Ronaldo's CLs have a lot to do with his managers just as Messi's did with Guardiola. Barcelona have been shown up tactically in the recent knockout phases of the CL mainly due to having average managers rather than a lack of the 'clutch gene' in Messi.
 
I think Ronaldo has been the better player for the last 2-3yrs though. Messi is the best at what he does but as crazy as it may sound has become a bit predictable and because he no longer has the pace, strength or agility of before can be stopped in the bigger games. Ronaldo on the other hand is so dynamic that he can hurt you in so many more ways than Messi can. His movement, heading and ability to sense danger is still at an all time high. Not to mention he's still an unbelievable athlete.

In saying that when Messi does decide to turn it on, he makes it clear he's an overall better player than Ronaldo.
 
El Jefe said:
Messi has played with better players domestically and internationally but its worth considering the managers

Sir Alex, Pellegrini, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Allegri
vs
Rijkaard, Guardiola, Tito, Roura, Martino, Luis Enrique, Valverde

The gap in quality of managers is far greater than the gap in quality of players. Ronaldo's CLs have a lot to do with his managers just as Messi's did with Guardiola. Barcelona have been shown up tactically in the recent knockout phases of the CL mainly due to having average managers rather than a lack of the 'clutch gene' in Messi.
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that's true, managers are often overlooked in these debates. while Fergie, Mou and Ancelotti had success with and without Ronaldo and are generally viewed as all time greats - guys like Rijkaard, Martino, Enrique and Valverde (after he quits) will never come close to managing big club again, let alone winning the CL with one of them. even Guardiola can't get near another CL trophy anymore even though he's the only from the group who had both players and money to win it later (at Bayern and City). the fact is, if you have Messi, you will look good even if you're just an average manager or beginner (not saying Guardiola belongs in that group).

I don't know what to think about Zidane though.
 
El Jefe said:
I think Ronaldo has been the better player for the last 2-3yrs though. Messi is the best at what he does but as crazy as it may sound has become a bit predictable and because he no longer has the pace, strength or agility of before can be stopped in the bigger games. Ronaldo on the other hand is so dynamic that he can hurt you in so many more ways than Messi can.
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I can't disagree more, I actually laughed reading this. The guy's leading every type of numbers across the big leagues for 2 years in a row and you come with this. You can say it's your personal opinion and you prefer Ronaldo, but don't come with nosense stuff ffs.

MrEleson said:
That argument was always a fallacy anyway. You have guys coming over from la liga like Cazorla, Aguero, David Silva,etc who have bossed the league and are far inferior to Messi. The argument that he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality of the league is nonsense based on that too as those players have a similar profile and build to him. Sanchez at his best was also doing fantastic in the EPL and he's even smaller than Messi.
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To think that Messi is a better midfielder than Silva, and a better goalscorer than Aguero, both being in my eyes City's best players in their history, it's mind boggling. He's better than both combined.
 
The Economist rated Messi and Ronaldo goals based on their context and importance. These stats, called Expected Points Added (EPA), rate goals by their added win probability. Meaning, a winning goal in the last minute of the game is rated higher than the fourth goal scored in a 4-0 win. Messi’s EPA stands at 59.5 while Ronaldo’s is 50.4.

Ronaldo confirmed stat padder.
 
Tostao_80 said:
People are still going on about this intense physical premier league. Pep Guardiolas Man City (since he came) average more points per game than any team in premier league history (and its not close). On the pitch, we have never seen a more dominant team on the pitch in England. He's doing so with a bunch of midgets. Do you know that out of their 100 point team last season, only TWO of their regular outfield players were over 6 foot? Raheem Sterling and especially Bernado Silva are killing the league this (2 of the least physically imposing players you can find). If they can do that, Messi would kill premier league defenders. Look at Salah, Aguero and Hazard, are they affected by the scary big tough defenders? Its all a fallacy. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if Messi scored more wonder goals here.
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You didn't read my post.

He'd obviously succeed at City but the circumstances of playing for City are pretty much the exact same as in Barcelona. I'd have loved to see him playing for a team with a completely different style and a completely different philosophy. Way too late for that now.

Do not think it's unfair at all to say Ronaldo is the much more adaptable player of the two.
 
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El Jefe said:
Messi has played with better players domestically and internationally but its worth considering the managers

Sir Alex, Pellegrini, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Allegri
vs
Rijkaard, Guardiola, Tito, Roura, Martino, Luis Enrique, Valverde

The gap in quality of managers is far greater than the gap in quality of players. Ronaldo's CLs have a lot to do with his managers just as Messi's did with Guardiola. Barcelona have been shown up tactically in the recent knockout phases of the CL mainly due to having average managers rather than a lack of the 'clutch gene' in Messi.
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I don't understand why people keep bring up Mourinho, when there are many good attacking players playing really limited and badly under him but instantly improved under other less renowned managers....
 
IFC 1905 said:
I can't disagree more, I actually laughed reading this. The guy's leading every type of numbers across the big leagues for 2 years in a row and you come with this. You can say it's your personal opinion and you prefer Ronaldo, but don't come with nosense stuff ffs.
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If you took the time to read more, you'll see I rate Messi higher. I specifically referenced the big games, most teams know exactly what Messi is going to do it just becomes a question of stopping it. With Ronaldo he's so dynamic that you can sense the panic of defenders when he moves because they have no idea what he will do. He can score in almost every way possible.

Ronaldo pops up in all attacking areas and is dangerous in them all. Messi is mainly in central areas and off the right flank.
 
Daysleeper said:
A potential Barcelona-Juventus final will be the most watched UCL final of the decade
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So why pretend there is a draw? Its so fake hahaha.

They reached the quarter finals for 8 straight years, always on opposite brackets. The probability of that happening is ridiculously low.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I don't understand why people keep bring up Mourinho, when there are many good attacking players playing really limited and badly under him but instantly improved under other less renowned managers....
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I think Real Madrid had their best league season ever under Mourinho can broke all goals and points record and Ronaldo was on fire although it's not necessarily Mourinhos credit. When you have Ronaldo you just let him do his thing, like mourinho said, Ronaldo doesn't want to be coached, he knows his own game and abilities better than anyone.
 
Shamana said:
I think Real Madrid had their best league season ever under Mourinho can broke all goals and points record and Ronaldo was on fire although it's not necessarily Mourinhos credit. When you have Ronaldo you just let him do his thing, like mourinho said, Ronaldo doesn't want to be coached, he knows his own game and abilities better than anyone.
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Well do you know Ronaldo fall out with Mourinho at Real because Mourinho ask him to defend? Mourinho has a terrible record coaching talented attacking players, he is probably the least wanted coach for most attackers.
 
the_irish123 said:
So why pretend there is a draw? Its so fake hahaha.

They reached the quarter finals for 8 straight years, always on opposite brackets. The probability of that happening is ridiculously low.
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This year is the first of those 8 years with brackets :wenger:

Barcelona missed the semis 4 of those 8 years, probabilities aren't that high
 
the_irish123 said:
Ok I forgot about that. Still I don't believe in draws.
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Do you think they bribed Julio Cesar to cheat the draw?

I don't understand how people think they cheat it. So many different players have done the draw, it would be the conspiracy of the century.

People will always pick up on different patterns, say X is very unlikely and therefore it had to be rigged. Same with people arguing it's rigged because the four best teams avoided eachother... but last year we had Juve vs Madrid and PSG vs Madrid before the quarters.

I do believe it might have happened in the past but no chance it's rigged now imo
 
Messi makes the team better and Cristiano the team win as evidenced by his leadership skills whatever the context and his impact on the national team too, enabling Portugal to win his 1st international trophy.

1) Messi is a better player
2) Cristiano is a greater player
 
Prometheus said:
3 you know. :lol:
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This is the regard that Messi is held amongst ex and current managers, and a lot of ex and current players, and the majority of the football world. Ronaldo lacks that genius that will sit him up there with the other three. Messi is CONSTANTLY spoken of as the best player, or at least up there with Pele and Diego. With Cristiano, he is simply one of the best players ever, or just compared to Messi. There is daylight between the two in most people's eyes, no amount of showing us stats will prove otherwise, just WATCH them. Infact, ask Rooney, Scholes and Rio what they think about Messi.
 


Easy to tell he played for PSV and Feyenoord rather than Ajax. What a surprise, different people have different opinions and different parameters to rate players. Wow.
 
Tostao_80 said:
This is the regard that Messi is held amongst ex and current managers, and a lot of ex and current players, and the majority of the football world. Ronaldo lacks that genius that will sit him up there with the other three. Messi is CONSTANTLY spoken of as the best player, or at least up there with Pele and Diego. With Cristiano, he is simply one of the best players ever, or just compared to Messi. There is daylight between the two in most people's eyes, no amount of showing us stats will prove otherwise, just WATCH them. Infact, ask Rooney, Scholes and Rio what they think about Messi.
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Yeah, yeah. That's your opinion and it's all fine - just the usual just watch them/use your eyes patronisation trope!

Three geniuses... I'm pretty sure there have been more. That's a ridiculous thing to say (perhaps a language issue?).
 
Ecstatic said:
Messi makes the team better and Cristiano the team win as evidenced by his leadership skills whatever the context and his impact on the national team too, enabling Portugal to win his 1st international trophy.

1) Messi is a better player
2) Cristiano is a greater player
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I don't really know what defines greatness in this context. They have both broken all sorts incredible individual records as well as racking up big trophies. Yeah Ronaldo has more CL's and Messi has more league titles. Personally I think they are equally great. Also their careers are not really over yet.
 
all. set up for a potential Juve vs Barca final.
 
Shamana said:
I don't really know what defines greatness in this context. They have both broken all sorts incredible individual records as well as racking up big trophies. Yeah Ronaldo has more CL's and Messi has more league titles. Personally I think they are equally great. Also their careers are not really over yet.
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I think they are at the same level of greatness. But people born in future generation may look back and prefer Ronaldo, as he is equally successful in England (CL, 3 league, Ballon D'or), Spain (4 CL, 2 league, 4 Ballon D'or) and for Portugal (Euro, Ballon D'or).
 
Pocho said:
https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2019/03/14/5c8a8dcbca4741893e8b45d3.html

Capello should know:
Capello: There have been three footballing geniuses, Ronaldo isn't one of them
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Sad to ignore a player like Zico

Shamana said:
I don't really know what defines greatness in this context. They have both broken all sorts incredible individual records as well as racking up big trophies. Yeah Ronaldo has more CL's and Messi has more league titles. Personally I think they are equally great. Also their careers are not really over yet.
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Any of us has a personal definition of greatness.

They are both legendary players in the history of the game.

Now, if I had to build a team and risk my life in a game against aliens at a temperature of 80ºC or minus 50ºC, I know the player I'd recruit first.
 
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