No, I haven’t... I’ve always argued the stats are meaningless.
When I’ve argued about them or brought them into the discussion was in reply to a Messi fanboy bringing them up.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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No, I haven’t... I’ve always argued the stats are meaningless.
When I’ve argued about them or brought them into the discussion was in reply to a Messi fanboy bringing them up.
@Ishdalar Can you share your breakdown of who had the better team year for year since they started competing?
Not deep analysis or anything - just state which years you think each had the better team?
Not deep analysis or anything - just state which years you think each had the better team?
So basically you want to close the thread in its most epic day?
Yeah, because football is a team sport?. That's why a good midfield and defense for Real Madrid with Ronaldo has netted 4 UCL titles, instead of Arbeloa, Carvalho, Coentrao and Lass. It's harder reaching sf's consistently when your midfield and your defense are not at the top level. Mascherano as a CB for years? Alba as our LB? we've been playing russian roulette every season since the 2nd treble (included, that's the time thinks worked our way).
You can write another bible, this
Doesn't have the same level of this
"I'm going to give 800 minutes to Kaká, Sahin and Granero" vs "I'll give those minutes to Isco, James and Kovacic"
BTW, I didn't put Marcelo in the dream team, the people that choose the award did it, not that it matters to you, Maradona could've played for Real Madrid the last 5 years and you'd call him a "poor's man Coutinho".
Enjoy the meltdown
1/3rd of those Pichichi trophies were won by Messi
Di Natale, Cavani, Immobile, Higuain, Icardi, or Dzeko can hit 30 goals in Serie A, the best player ever can't hit 40, because his team doesn't dominate enough.
2018 95 points, 86 goals
2017 91 points, 77 goals
2016 91 points 75 goals
2015 87 points 72 goals
It's not the 100M striker who has to improve his team's scoring numbers, is the 7th time in a row Italian juggernaut who fails to bring the goat the right circumstances to hit 40 goals
They have 24 wins and 3 draws after 27 fecking games. He has to have better numbers??? For fecking what? To have the pleasure of scoring a hattrick past Chievo? What’s the point? I really hope a 36 years old Quagliarella ends Serie A with more goals and assists than Ronaldo just to see if it actually enters some people’s heads what’s been happening.
Madrid had Lass Diarra and Arbeloa and they were making the semis. They had Kroos and Modric and were winning 4 in 5 years. Barcelona had Sergi Roberto and Andre Gomes and can’t make the semis, they had the best team of all time and they can’t win 4 in 5 years. At their best they were a lot better than Madrid at their best and at their worst they were a lot better than Madrid at their worst.
9 years of Cristiano at Madrid, all circumstances against him, had a worst team around him for 8 of those 9 years and he leaves having been more successful. You guys are right, you can’t write this shit up.
Buy De Ligt, De Jong, Jovic, get Neymar and Mbappe on top of it too. It’s either an historically great team with 0 weaknesses or you aren’t winning the Champions League if things continue like they’ve been. That’s what you pay the 100 million a month for. To get to Copa del Rey finals. Unfortunately for you Ronaldo is to the Champions League what Messi is to the Copa del Rey.
Disagree. He's scored more goals but in Madrid's winning seasons his overall contribution wasn't special at all. In terms of chance creation, individual highlights, participation in the build up and all that Messi has had much more influence than Cristiano. Take their games against Bayern for example. Ronaldo scored three and was okayish if you take away the goals. Messi though.. I can't think of q game in which Ronaldo was that involved and scored that much simultaneously.
Yeah recently. But pre 2014 they weren't. And they weren't in 2015 either. You cant just discount Messi's godly performances from then. His performances against us, Milan, Arsenal, Madrid, City, Bayern Were all Stand out performances.
He’s not involved with the ball as often because it’s not his job to be involved with the ball as often... playing next to Isco and Benzema and you want him to be more involved? Why? He adapted to that Madrid and became what they needed him to be. No surprise he’s playing completely differently at Juve.
Do you remember the first leg of the Bayern tie? 1-0 down in Munich and what happened? Didn’t need the Bayern defense to be playing suicidal football either. Find me a more decisive performance than that. How many chances created? How many yellows did he get out of Martínez to completely change the tie around? How many goals did he score?
His effect on the team was beyond obvious to everyone bar the complete idiots who have no clue how the sport works who actually fecking believed he was poaching them in, could be replaced by a pure goalscorer and Modric and Kroos were the ones running the show.
Look at them now.
What Ronaldo did in the past 5 years at Madrid was nothing short of a miracle.
If you ask Sanchez, scoring goals is probably more difficult than getting involved in the game and participate in build up play. Arguments like "take away goals" is really self-defeated in purpose of football. Can you take away goals from NBA players to assess how good the player is, when the player role in the team is to out-score the opponents, and stop opponents from scoring more? Ok maybe its too far off, but I just don't buy it.
I won't fight who had the better team, that's like starting the Vietnam war against you.
But you do know that Xavi, Iniesta and Puyol existed before 2009 and their trophy cabinet was abyssmal, right?.
Xavi from 98 to 08: 10 seasons, 3 La Liga titles, 1 UCL.
Xavi from 09 to 15: 7 seasons, 5 La Liga titles, 3 UCL, 3 Spanish Cups.
Puyol 99 to 08: 9 seasons, 2 La Liga, 1 UCL.
Puyol 08 to 14: 6 seasons, 4 La Liga, 2 UCL, 2 Cups.
Iniesta 02 to 08: 6 seasons, 2 La Liga, 1 UCL.
Iniesta 08 to 18: 10 seasons, 7 La Liga, 3 UCL, 6 Cups.
You don't see an increase in their silverware since a certain someone became the star, right?
And an extra point, to add perspective
Ramos, Casillas, Xabi Alonso, Varane, Modric, Kroos, Khedira were winning the Champions League with Ronaldo and fecking off in the summer to dominate international football as they pleased. Bravo, Valdes, Pedro, Villa, Rafinha, Thiago, Bojan, Tello, Fabregas, Alexis without Messi get one humiliation after the other.
Spanish has been nothing but horrid in big tournaments since 2012, we're in 2019, two world cups and an Euro have passed since then and Pique, Busquets, Iniesta and Alba have done nothing.
2018 WC dream team: Marcelo, Varane, Modric vs... Coutinho
2014 WC dream team: Marcelo, Kroos, James, Di Maria vs... Neymar
2016 EC TOTT: Pepe and Kroos vs... no one.
Yup, use that logic more, please
Awesome post.
Ronaldo was on the mos stacked team in the world with crazy good bench depth from 2014-2018.
Modric was the greatest midfielder in the world, Marcelo the best LB during that time, and Ramos is probably the most celebrated defender of this generation. Benzema is top 5 all time in CL scoring.
But Ronaldo played with chumps
It's honestly hard to argue with people who clearly think Messi nutmegging Milner is worth more than a goal!
Chance creation, individual highlights, participation in the build up - how do these measure up against goals?
Chance creation, individual highlights, participation in the build up - how do these measure up against goals?
If Madrid just grabbed a Cavani type player they would've been fine overall.
Ronaldo was part of Madrid's worst La Liga campaign last season. The CL just covered the cracks. If Ronaldo had stayed they still wouldn't win the league this year. Zidane saw the writing on the wall and got the hell out. He's only back because Flo finally sees the same thing.
Because Messi also gets you goals all the time. Look at yesterday, he had a hand in almost every single goal Barca scored yesterday. His goals and passing vision is what separates him from the rest.
I’d be very interested in this too. Not just Ishdalar but other people in the Messi camp.
Which seasons in their whole careers has Ronaldo had a better team around him than Messi?
Funny how Messi plays a better game the day after and there is no fuzz about it.
Better teams that Ronaldo played on:
2007, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014, 2017.
Messi had better teams 7 out of the past 12 years.
yeah, for me it's his passing, I've never seen another player who can pass a ball like Messi.
I really don't know why people can't appreciate both of them, this thread is pretty bonkers.
Come on you know that's not true.
How many champions leagues do you think Madrid would win with Cavani instead?
Ronaldo is a great CF, probably one of the best, but Messi is an all around player that scores the same amount of goals and create for others, they can play together if they want to, would be great to see.
They’d have been fine with Cavani
You can’t be serious.
When you can cover the cracks of a season by winning the Champions League after going past Dortmund, Spurs, PSG, Bayern, Juventus and Liverpool then who the feck gives a crap about any league campaign.
8 years in a row of Madrid getting to the champions League semifinals. Eight. And they got humiliated at the Bernabeu by Ajax. You watched those two games and concluded they’d have been fine with Cavani? Really?
You misunderstood me. I meant for this season.
Ronaldo >>>>>>>>>>>> Cavani.
The issue for Madrid wasn't just losing Ronaldo, it's not even attempting to replace him AT ALL. If they added even a 20 goal per season player they would have fared much much better. Not win the CL, but they'd get past Ajax more comfortably and put up a better fight in the league.
They’d have been fine with Cavani
You can’t be serious.
When you can cover the cracks of a season by winning the Champions League after going past Dortmund, Spurs, PSG, Bayern, Juventus and Liverpool then who the feck gives a crap about any league campaign.
8 years in a row of Madrid getting to the champions League semifinals. Eight. And they got humiliated at the Bernabeu by Ajax. You watched those two games and concluded they’d have been fine with Cavani? Really?
I was talking about this season, I should've been more clear, my bad.
Madrid got TONS of chances against Ajax, someone more clinical and it's a completely different tie. Even when Ramos didn't play last year, Madrid were getting destroyed by Juventus in the second leg. He is the heart and soul of that team.
Ramos injuring Salah was huge for that last final, on top of Karius putting in one of the most shameful finals performances in GK history.
2009, 2013 and 2014. Holy shit... it’s not even close. 2013 especially. Seriously, go take a look at Madrid’s squad in 2013 and 2014 and compare it to Barcelona’s.
3 years in his entire career Ronaldo had a better team around him, 2007, 2008 and 2017. 3 in 15 since 2004/05 to 2018/19.
09 - No, I don't even need to explain this.
13 - Barca were favourites for the CL, Madrid not even second (Bayern was).
And that's 6 years, not 7. So 4 out of the last 12?
They thought that the 20-30 goal per season player would be Bale. Remember many of us want Bale here in the Summer...
2009, 2013 and 2014. Holy fecking shit
2009 United were the favorites over Barca in the CL. 2013 Barca lot 7-0 to Bayern, absolutely Madrid were better that year, and 2014 as well no question.
How can you seriously think 2014 especially Madrid were better than Barca?! Come on now
Bale has always been there, and always inured. Great player, incredibly clutch in big moments, but Flo deserves all the blame for this season.
Ronaldo is a beast and replacing 50 goals a year isn't happening with anyone else besides Messi.
But again, if they even got someone who could give them a respectable 20 goals a year and it's a completely different season.
I see. My bad. Buying a class striker always helps, of course.
No, it isn’t... how could this have turned out the way it did and there are still people believing getting some decent striker would have had solved anything? Benzema is on 22 goals for the season. Start Mariano every game and he’d get 20 at least too.
There is no chance this Real Madrid team would have gone past any top team in the Champions League had they signed someone like Icardi or Lewandowski and benched Benzema for them.
Not once did Barca beat Madrid in 2013, they drew 1-1 and lost the other match 2-1. Messi had 3 goals against Madrid that season. Messi also got injured and missed both CL legs in the semi-finals.
And again, in 2009 United were favored over Barca. Barca winning was considered an upset.
Then they wouldn't have done with Ronaldo either this year. The team was in shambles and always headed in this direction. Last season they were running on fumes. Had their worst La Liga campaign in 50 years. Zidane was on the hot seat all season long.
No......it wasn't.
It was close odds wise, but the odds leaned towards them and most neutrals fancied them too.
See, in contrast to many other Ronaldo fans in here you understand that football is about much more than just scoring goals. However, this is not consistent with your strong will to see Cristiano as the best there is so you created yourself a reality in which you can contribute as much off the ball as you can do with it at your feet while simultaneously overvalueing every action CR7 had on the ball. Oh, and you ignore that Messi is probably the best ever in terms of movement between the lines.
Let's not get into a discussion of Ronaldo's Bayern games. You thought these performances were great even without his goals, I say his overall contribution was nothing special at all. But maybe I'm just spoiled by the overall contribution of a certain someone, who knows.
It would (maybe) be self-defeated if the one player scored significantly more than the other but they are on par, especially in the games I was comparing them too. So it is only fair to compare their impact ignoring goals.
Thats a great example. Unfortunately, Messis performance against the same team when he did what he did to Boateng is regarded as more memorable. Ronaldo just scored goals, Messi scored AND produced a masterclass and moments of genius outside his goals. You had commentators in the studio after the game in total disbelief and awe at what they had just seen. It was like they had just seen an alien playing. Messis genius has that effect on people, Ronaldo doesnt. Its why Messi is and always will be regarded as better. Goals AND footballing genius.
If we are going the NBA route, take away curry and lebron's PPG and LeBron is still the significantly better player.
I understand that "taking away goals" may make for a foolish argument, because goals are obviously important, but even for the NBA you definitely have players who can score like crazy (like Damian Lillard) but not provide much else.
2009 - I don't think this even debatable. Barca were much, much better than United.
2013 - Yes, Barca were outclassed by Bayern, but like I said, Barca were the favourites even ahead of Bayern. Madrid themselves were destroyed by Lewandowski at their own turf remember when he scored four. Perhaps Barca were not better than Bayern, but they were certainly better than Madrid.
Hell, look at Messi against City in 2015. He didn't even score and people still talk about that performance from time to time. Absolutely incredible.
I can't think of a single match where Ronaldo didn't score where people still gave him that much praise.
But they weren't better than Madrid man. Madrid beat them head to head. Not saying it was a huge gap or anything, but those Mou teams were deadly.
By looking at their squads and knowing what level their players were playing at.
2009 United were slight favourites over Barcelona because that was the start of that Barcelona team and people weren’t aware of how good they were. Look at those teams... are you seriously going to tell me Ronaldo had a better team around him than Messi?
2012/13 is not even remotely close, that’s just insane. 2013/14 is closer but the big difference there is 2013/14 might have been the last season where Ronaldo was comfortably a level above Messi in terms of consistent performances.
Funny how Messi plays a better game the day after and there is no fuzz about it.
Yeah, still waiting for the infamous Messi brigade who are so irrationally in love with him that they bump his thread after each goal and then provocatively call him the GOAT. Could've sworn they'd be storming this thread deeming this debate to be over when he's had such a game. Wait..
I can see a debate for 2009 Barca over 2009 United, it's obviously not crazy to have that opinion.
But CL is a different animal and a lot of luck is involved. It is amazing what Madrid achieved but there was controversy all the time in those years, just like there was in the infamous Barca/Chelsea 2009 match. I think the best teams wins CL isn't true at all.
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