I think greatness should not just be measured by trophies, but also by a players ability to score outragous goals or regulary pull of outrageous skill. Although someone like Ronaldinho did not hit the heights of consistency like Messi or Ronaldinho, he's still for me one of the greats of the game for being able to demonstrate outrageous skill and be greatest football entertainer of all time. So even though his peak was quite short for me he is still one the greatest for being so magical and majestic in his peak years.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I think greatness should not just be measured by trophies, but also by a players ability to score outragous goals or regulary pull of outrageous skill. Although someone like Ronaldinho did not hit the heights of consistency like Messi or Ronaldinho, he's still for me one of the greats of the game for being able to demonstrate outrageous skill and be greatest football entertainer of all time. So even though his peak was quite short for me he is still one the greatest for being so magical and majestic in his peak years.
So basically he's the best because he's done it in several countries? He spends a minute and a half to talk about why he's the best ever and it boils down to 'played in 3 countries, people admire his work ethic'... Neither is about his skill as a footballer. I don't know what they pay pundits for...
This is simply not true, a lot of these games were really close with both teams having a lot of chances. And you can´t simply diminish Messi´s impact IF you want to talk about one team dominating the other one. I don´t have the exact stats but as far as I know Messi is avering two or three time the touches Ronaldo does in average. Messi is very often participating in the build-up of the goals, since he is very good at tight spaces in the midfield can play perfect through balls, one-twos or destabilize the defense by dribbling through the midfield. He has many offensive weapons and in most of the games it was one of the listed abilities of him that made the difference. How are you gonna pretend that Real Madrid is inferior to Barcelona in any sort of way? Ronaldo always had a very good squad, especially in the last three years while Barca didn´t even have proper options on the bench.
Of course there are moments in which Ronaldo participates in the build up but it´s minimal when compared to what Messi does. Regarding the 1-0: It was a great run, he recognized the mismatch and made the right run and scored nicely, that´s what great poachers do in the penalty box and he is obviously great at it. Of course it´s a lot more complex than that but it´s also a lot more complex than just flat out saying that Messi is playing in a better team without looking at what Messi does for the team.
Nearly every good player plays for a good team which helps to inflate the stats but it´s pretty clear and visible that Messi impacts the offense of his team in a bigger way, simply because there is more to this game, than scoring goals.
I also read some other things you posted here like Messi playing successfully in only one system in his career, which isn´t true at all. Argentina from 2011-2013 was a counter attack heavy team and Messi was incredibly dangerous in this set up since he is fast, can find players in space better than probably anyone, dribble several players with ease and also score in such situations. It fall apart during the world cup a little bit since all attackers were either unfit or injured. But even considering that he was able to reach the finals while being the best player of the tournament. The same was the case during the MSN years, you should watch some of the counter attacks, he had a hand in most of them.
It´s laughable to attribute the ability of a player of his magnitude to the team he is playing, since it´s pretty obvious that the kind of abilities he has would make a difference in ANY setup.
Either way....even from those, your claim of United being vastly superior clearly wrong as they are essentially equal from an English PoV.
I was around then, I can look it up and wouldn't doubt the odds leaned one way to United at times too, it was even at times, thus why it was a "dream" final. But go outside of English-sided sites and you'll see a large majority leading towards to Barca and it not being all as equal as the bookies made out. It's a similar case of why you see England being 2nd-3rd-4th favourites to win the World Cup in England....but not as highly abroad.
There seems to be some odd re-writted history that United were the massive favourites and it was a massive upset. It wasn't an upset at all, it was simply upsetting to be firmly put in our places by an all-time team.
Great logic there. You mean like how we can now, all these years later conclude that there were others better than Maldini and Baresi because the latter 2 only played in Milan. You think that diminishes their greatness? You think Beckenbauers greatness is diminished by him playing virtually all his career at Bayern? They are still the greatest defenders of all time. And no, future generations wont solely look at Balon Dors. How many did Platini win compared to Diego? Who is considered greater/ better?
You miss the point. When they have same level of success over the years, people will start looking at things like which one looks harder to achieve.
Just think objectivity, people in future probably won't have bias like us when they are comparing past goat who are playing 30-50 years ago. So what will they look at? Achievements, personal honours, stats, trophies, records, legacy etc Both Pele, Maradona, or Beckenbauer has achieved such high level of greatness that its hard to find another player who are worthy to compare with them.
But when they have find 2 players who are almost identical in all those measurable criteria, what more will they look at?
You may argue that they will look at style of their play to decide their favourite. But be honest, will you watch full 1000 hours compilation of players who were playing 30-50 years ago? Nobody will do that, they will probably search youtube for 10-15 minutes highlights, both Ronaldo and Messi are amazing in those.
So what next? The most convenient way to look at it, is probably in terms of where and how they achieve such greatness. A player who has achieve greatness everywhere he goes, is probably more impressive than a player who only achieve greatness in one place, given that they are in similar level of success.
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So for convenience sake people in the future will arbitrarily decide on a criterion that doesn't have anything to do with who is the better footballer to decide who the better footballer is?
I personally hope that people in the future will be less interested in this whole Messi v Ronaldo debate.
People in future who have never watched them play live, would probably rate them the same, theres really no reason for them to pick one favourite over the other. But when they do a list of top 10 GOAT, Ronaldo may have a slight edge, as he CV is slightly more impressive, in terms of more success everywhere and more international success.
I'd rather listen to the legendary Ruud Gulit than you; just because you don't agree with him doesn't make him wrong (a professional has said he prefers Ronaldo, now he suddenly doesn't know anything; if it's messi now, you'd say that even pros know he's the best...double standards).
By the way, I agree with him, Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest player ever for the things Gulit said and even more
(Un)Fortunately , legendary players' legacies are cemented by their exploits with the National team. All the names which are being thrown in here; Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer had exceptional NT careers in tandem with remarkable club careers. As someone rightly pointed out, Platini has 3 BDs to Maradona's none, but that 1986 WC changes everything. After 20-30 years, it's easy to forget that CR7 wasn't on the pitch for Portugal's Euro win (I am not belittling his achievement, mind you), while at the same time, some may remember Messi as that guy who missed a penalty in the Copa final, and retired.
Doesn't change one bit about the greatness of the two, but perception matters. And history has been usually kinder to players who have won stuffs for their countries. Zidane is a great example. Though he had a stellar club career, it is those 1998 WC final, 2000 Euro and 2006 WC that have put him on a pedestal, which might be even higher than platini's (rightly, or wrongly)
Doesn't change one bit about the greatness of the two, but perception matters. And history has been usually kinder to players who have won stuffs for their countries. Zidane is a great example. Though he had a stellar club career, it is those 1998 WC final, 2000 Euro and 2006 WC that have put him on a pedestal, which might be even higher than platini's (rightly, or wrongly)
It may appear more difficult to achieve for Ronaldo, but it wasn't/isn't. Anyone who knows a bit more about their respective teams/clubs knows Messi did not have it any easier.
Ronaldo had world class support on the field and from the bench everywhere he played. Messi had it made for the four years during the Guardiola era, but other than that not so much. It's not like he was suffering, don't get me wrong, but this idea that Messi has it perfect in his comfort zone is an agenda-driven misconception.
The truth is, Barcelona are generally not a well-run club (even though the transfers in the last couple of windows have been very good). Messi has seen key players leave without proper replacement, plenty of rubbish signed over the years, poor coaching appointments... Throughout all these years Messi formed the most essential part of the backbone of Barça and compensated for a lot of shortcomings.
So it's not that Messi is enjoying success in a great team that could win without him. It's the opposite, we are this successful because of him. Another misconception is that Messi dropped deeper to create because he lost his edge physically. If this were true, how does he still manage to finish off plays and outscore Ronaldo? Messi did not drop deeper because he can't dribble anymore, he dropped deeper because the club didn't replace Xavi and Iniesta properly.
I feel like many people's view on this particular topic is the opposite of how things really are. If Messi had gone to City, it would have been easier for him. City have a well-structured team and he'd have to do far less there than he has to do in Barça now. It wouldn't have been a challenge at all. The challenge for Messi was, several times during his career, to stay in Barça and elevate the team while the team was compromised by poor management.
Well its not totally black or white in that matter, I agree international trophies and WC will help raise legacy, but I am pretty sure, Di Stefano and Cruyff, who were without WC, will always be rated higher than Zidane. Di Stefano legacy is about how he wins 5 European Cup and dominate that era. Maradona over Platini, is more about the legacy of how he wins WC, almost single-handedly.
The interesting fact is not Cristiano Ronaldo won an international trophy and not Messi. Portugual winning a trophy is the reward of the involvement of Cristiano in the last 15 years.
It's the leadership skills of the Portuguese which makes the difference for me.
Look at Real Madrid with and without Cristiano...or what he did this week
If Messi had the mindset of the Portuguese, please be sure he would have won something with the NT.
It's the leadership skills of the Portuguese which makes the difference for me.
Look at Real Madrid with and without Cristiano...or what he did this week
If Messi had the mindset of the Portuguese, please be sure he would have won something with the NT.
I think Ronaldo is fantastic, I got nothing bad to say about him. I'm also not saying that Gullit is wrong, I think his opinion and the conclusion that Ronaldo is the greatest is a perfectly valid opinion. All I was saying is that I listened to the clip, and I hoped to get some insight into why Gulit thought he was the greatest of all time, and in my view his argumentation doesn't add up at all. Gullit might be extremely knowledgeable, and undoubtedly know lots about the game that I don't, but I don't think he's a good pundid, or at least not in this clip. For me he just spends 1 and a half minute talking about things that don't have anything to do with how good a player Ronaldo is, but instead repeat himself and doesn't expand on any of his points. I still don't know why doing it in Italy is relevant when we have yearly CL and LaLiga is a stronger league, or why Portugal winning a final (when he wasn't playing most of the game) makes him the greatest. If Gulit talked about what qualities Ronaldo has as a footballer that separate him from the rest I'd love to listen to him, but I didn't hear any of that.
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Messi played in a better team than Ronaldo for over 90% of his club career and for 100% of his international career.
The fact Ronaldo’s accomplished so much not only in very different teams, systems and circumstances adds as much to his legacy as the fact he did it while not having anywhere near as much of the help that Messi did.
The idea that Messi has it tough because Barcelona weren’t able to replace the best team in the history of the sport is hilarious. No shit they weren’t able to replace them, there are no players anywhere near that level ffs.
Maybe in professional players perspective, its really really hard to do it everywhere. So Gullit rate him higher in this respect.
You see great player over the years, Maradona has great career in Italy and for Argentina, playing like a football god, but his Spain years was kind of disappointing. Cruyff is legend and playing like a god in Ajax and Netherland, but his Barca years are comparatively a little less impressive, still a legend though. To lesser extent, Ibra is a great players who moved around to clubs and countries alot, good career in Italy and France, but less in Spain, and less in England (still very good for his age though). Owen is legend for Liverpool and good for England, but he fails in Spain and at United etc Messi is absolutely godly in Barca throughout the years, but not so godly as for Argentina. Ronaldo has been superhuman every year and everywhere for Real, United, and Portugal, and probably for Juventus.
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Can somebody tell all the barca and messi fans that playing with the greatest club side ever, the greatest front three ever and after that spanking millions on the best young players means messi always had world class support. I mean during the messi Ronaldo era you can argue that the third best player in the world has been at different times xavi, iniesta, sneijder, falcao, neymar, Suarez and the majority of them have played with messi.
Although tbf they have somehow convinced themselves that the Argentina football side is worse than portugals so dunno what you can even say to them.
Although tbf they have somehow convinced themselves that the Argentina football side is worse than portugals so dunno what you can even say to them.
The legendary Gullit whose name you can't even spell correctly? Tell me more.
they both play for great teams so saying Messi has it easier just because he plays for Barca is equally ridiculous. peak Xavi and Iniesta Barca teams under Guardiola? yes, I agree, much better team than Madrid from the same period. but Barca from last 3-4 years? nope. you don't get destroyed by PSG, Bayern or Juve if you have the best team in Europe. we aren't talking about one loss and we aren't talking about narrow losses, we're talking about frequent and complete thrashings.
today there's even less sense in comparing their teams because there's no clear difference in strength. it's like saying Federer won the grand slam because he had to play 3 hours match before the final and his opponent had to play 3 hours and 20 minutes before the final. it's just silly at that point.
when all are fit, both Juve and Barca have the same chances for CL.
today there's even less sense in comparing their teams because there's no clear difference in strength. it's like saying Federer won the grand slam because he had to play 3 hours match before the final and his opponent had to play 3 hours and 20 minutes before the final. it's just silly at that point.
when all are fit, both Juve and Barca have the same chances for CL.
Messi is still all time topscorer(you don't get there by being average) for Argentina, and Argentina have been runner up in 1 WC and 3 Copa americas. It's fine margins really.
If higauin scored this, they would probably be WC champions. You cannot expect Messi to score and create all the goals in the NT team. Also although Argentina have had amazing attacking talent to choose from, they have been rubbishly coached and managed and always been shit without Messi.
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So by that logic Ferguson, Scholes, Giggs and so on have proved less by staying in Manchester United, and Ronaldo will have proved more if he move to PSG and score lots of goals in the French league?
I think longevity and adaptability is important, but I don't think you have to change environment to show those qualities if you compete at the highest level. I think both Messi and Ronaldo have shown this over their career, and even though Messi has stayed in Barcelona the team has changed their identity, tiki taka/more direct etc., and Messi have also been utilized in many different positions. I also don't think the Ronaldo perform for Portugal and Messi don't for Argentina is accurate from the games I've seen. Winning a final that come around once every 4 years isn't a criteria I would put much weight on in comparing one player in a team game with 11 players from your country.
I didn't say staying at one club only will be proved less, but to become successful everywhere will be harder. Most of the time it doesn't matter, a player who had won 10 trophies in 1 club, is definitely more successful than a player who has won 5 trophies in 5 clubs. But when things are on equal terms (which is rare), players who had won 10 trophies in 1 club vs player who had won 10 trophies in 10 club, people will look at it differently, and may think the latter is more impressive and harder to achieve.
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Hmm, for me winning a league title with 7 consecutive winners Juventus is worth less than if Ronaldo had stayed in Madrid and beat Barca and Atletico to the title. If Ronaldo moved to Napoli and dragged them to the title it would be more impressive imo. But well, I guess we won't agree on this, which is completely fine, what people value is subjective.
Personally I don't think there has been alot between Real Madrid and Barcelona since 2011. Mostly Barcelona has dominated the league, while Real Madrid have dominated the CL. Generally in the classico's Barca comes out on top, but like I said since 2011, they have around equally good squads while Madrid have had better managers, apart from benitez.
Never got this. Ronaldo's reputation of being a leader is primarily based on one final during which he got emotional at the sideline after being subbed out due to injury. I honestly question that someone who is annoyed if a team mate "steals" his goal, who openly criticizes his team mates for not being good enough when things aren't going well or who's offended if the club pays a greater fee for a player that came in after him is a good leader by any means. He's far too self-centered to be considered one. He's a role model athlete for his team mates attitude-wise, yes, but that doesn't make him a leader.
That has nothing to do with his footballing ability though. Don't really understand what leadership skills have to do with how good you are playing football anyway.
In essence, everything you said in your first sentence contradicts what you said after that. You can't have both, either you think doing it at multiple clubs proves more or you believe it doesn't. The same criticism applied to Messi for staying at one club has also be applied to SAF, Scholes and so forth if you are being consequent.
Hmm, for me winning a league title with 7 consecutive winners Juventus is worth less than if Ronaldo had stayed in Madrid and beat Barca and Atletico to the title. If Ronaldo moved to Napoli and dragged them to the title it would be more impressive imo. But well, I guess we won't agree on this, which is completely fine, what people value is subjective.
Sure. But if they win it with record breaking highest no. of points, or without a defeat, it's also very impressive. Barca winning La Liga almost every year, doesn't makes it less valuable if they win it again this year either.
I think the point is that Juventus are just so far ahead of the competition it's more or less a given that they will win the league, just like it's a given these days that PSG will walk the french league. Of course winning the title is always an achievement, but winning the Seria A with Juventus is not like winning it back in the 80's and 90's, when it was full of world class teams.
It isn't that exact. It not always either black or white. You look at SAF, the trophies he has won with us (38 trophies at United, 50 trophies overall including other clubs), name me another manager who had won as many. There's probably none. Modern day best manager is Guardiola (25 trophies) and Mourinho (25 trophies), who moves around alot to different clubs. Mourinho has been a success for a few clubs, but also a failure for a few other. Guardiola is the no.1 manager in the world right now, but he couldn't win a CL for Bayern, when he inherited a treble winning squad from Heynckes.
The gap isn't as large as you might think it is. They are only few points (4 points) ahead of Napoli last season, the title hasn't been decided until the very end. In the season before (16-17), again they are only few points (4 points) ahead of Roma and Napoli. But this season, so far they are leading by 18 points, undefeated. Up to now, they have improved the gap by 14 points, comparing to the past 2 seasons.
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If a man utd forum says 50/50, clearly messi is better.
People who look at goals scored know little about football. Compare them both.
Ronaldo and messi equal almost in goals scored per game played.
Now look at assists, dribbles, passing etc and you will realise who the best is.
No comparison
People who look at goals scored know little about football. Compare them both.
Ronaldo and messi equal almost in goals scored per game played.
Now look at assists, dribbles, passing etc and you will realise who the best is.
No comparison
I feel the only years when Ronaldo had a better squad was when Ramos, Bale, Isco, Modric, Marcelo, Kroos etc were at their peak, with Casemiro playing at great level and Morata, James, Kovacic and co supporting them. That maybe lasted two or three seasons imo.
In other years the influence of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Eto'o, Alves, Pique, Abidal etc was just too much and Barcelona's squad was superior to Madrid's.
In other years the influence of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Eto'o, Alves, Pique, Abidal etc was just too much and Barcelona's squad was superior to Madrid's.
After all that doesn't matter. Either doing it abroad is something that enhances your career or it doesn't. Even if you say it is only decisive when two individuals are effectively on eyesight regarding their career success it should generally be applied to every comparison not only a selective few. We also didn't only talk about SAF but also about players like Ferdinand, Scholes and so forth.
Anyway, SAF and Guardiola have both won two CLs with their domestic clubs. Guardiola however has proved himself in other leagues, too, so you could already argue that he has already surpassed SAF according to your criteria. I mean, okay, SAF has won more titles but Pep has done it in different countries, right? Especially since there's no difference in international titles?
You have got to be shitting me
The Barca fans is clearly far more objective on this subject.
What about all of the rest? It's easy to say a player is better than another when you disregard everything he's not better at.
They're equal in my eyes. Too hard to compare them. I dislike judging players by stats and trophies. There's too many variables.
I consider myself a good player. Everything I can do on a football pitch, Ronadlo has complete mastery over. But watching Messi, sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief, knowing I could never do/see the things he does.
But in 10 years time, a kid is going to come along with the right phyiscal attributes, attitude and guidance, who surpasses Ronaldo. He'll be faster, stronger, more clinical. It'll be a lot longer before we see anyone change the game like Messi has.
I consider myself a good player. Everything I can do on a football pitch, Ronadlo has complete mastery over. But watching Messi, sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief, knowing I could never do/see the things he does.
But in 10 years time, a kid is going to come along with the right phyiscal attributes, attitude and guidance, who surpasses Ronaldo. He'll be faster, stronger, more clinical. It'll be a lot longer before we see anyone change the game like Messi has.
nope and we already had this debate couple of weeks ago. Juve easily beat Barca on their way to final earlier and that was when both Messi and Suarez were younger. only team that managed to stop them in last two years were Madrid and now they have their best player. so unless you think Coutinho finally being registered for CL makes all the difference between them, I fail to see how exactly is Barca much stronger than Juve and based on which games in CL. they're at the same level. you probably think Barca is stronger than Juve in the same way City is stronger than Spurs but that clearly isn't the case.
Does Atletico have a better squad than Manchester City? Or does that nonsensical logic of applying the Champions League results to the quality of the current squad only work sometimes?
I think Barcelona have a better squad than Juve because they do and are superior in pretty much every position.
Cancelo, Ronaldo and Chiellini are the only ones that would make it to Barca's starting eleven and Chiellini vs Umtiti is very close nowadays. Even Pjanic would be benched by Busquets.
Juve are much more compact though and they're built for the Champions League in a way Barcelona aren't. Last year Barcelona stomped Juve. Should have won by more than 3 at the Camp Nou and even without Messi they were the better team in Turin.
How is it possible for anyone to watch the games and say Ronaldo has as much help at Juve as Messi at Barcelona I'll never understand. It's obvious why it happens though, same way it happened at the World Cup.
That would be fantastic in footballing terms and insufferable in all things internet.
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