Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

Hell, look at Messi against City in 2015. He didn't even score and people still talk about that performance from time to time. Absolutely incredible.

I can't think of a single match where Ronaldo didn't score where people still gave him that much praise.

That’s because he’s Ronaldo though. Who in their right mind would romanticize a Ronaldo performance, am I right?

2017 vs Napoli first leg. 2015 vs Atlético second leg iirc.

Ronaldo’s impact on the game and the way he generates chances and causes danger to defenses is through his movement and physicality over through balls or dribbles more often than not. Unfortunately the movement and mismatches he wins only get noticed if the ball gets there. His impact on set pieces only gets talked about if he’s the one scoring it.

So when Ramos scores a header and Ronaldo has two defenders all over him, the presence of Ronaldo is irrelevant despite him impacting the play while Messi’s impact in the game is often much more straightforward and happens with the ball at his feet more often than not.

Hence the ‘chances created’ stats and watching the game without taking everything into account not measuring the danger a player creates to the opposition.

Look at Ronaldo in these:





No goals, no assists, no chances created stats, didn’t even touch the ball... but the impact on the plays is beyond obvious.

 

[Peyroteo]

I can see a debate for 2009 Barca over 2009 United, it's obviously not crazy to have that opinion.

But CL is a different animal and a lot of luck is involved. It is amazing what Madrid achieved but there was controversy all the time in those years, just like there was in the infamous Barca/Chelsea 2009 match. I think the best teams wins CL isn't true at all.

Luck evens out. They’ve been playing it for almost 15 years now.

Madrid played like the best team in the world in 2012 and didn’t win it. They were not even close to playing like the best team in the world in 2016 and won it.

Ronaldo got lucky with Eder in 2016? How about 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2018...

If Juve gets past the quarters it will have been the 12th time Ronaldo gets to the Champions League semifinals in the past 13 years. It’s not luck.

 

[Daysleeper]

No......it wasn't.

It was close odds wise, but the odds leaned towards them and most neutrals fancied them too.

No, the odds leaned towards United.

No......it wasn't.

It was close odds wise, but the odds leaned towards them and most neutrals fancied them too.

No, the odds leaned towards United not Barca:

https://www.oddsportal.com/soccer/europe/champions-league-2008-2009/results/

Google any predictions/preview from 2009 and almost all pundits had United winning:

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/man_utd/6253/barcelona_v_man.html

 

[RedRonaldo]

It would (maybe) be self-defeated if the one player scored significantly more than the other but they are on par, especially in the games I was comparing them too. So it is only fair to compare their impact ignoring goals.

You can analysis all day and conclude Messi has bigger impact because of his overall performance in build up play etc.

But for me its pointless, as Ronaldo impact in winning the games and trophies, is essentially just the same. Its just that Messi does the same thing in a different way, more eye-pleasing, and more admirable. But Ronaldo does things in a more clutch way, more wow moments for me.

To me, Ronaldo in 2017 CL run, is nothing less than amazing, its really wow. Only Maradona in 86 WC is better, imho.

 

[Daysleeper]

Luck evens out. They’ve been playing it for almost 15 years now.

Madrid played like the best team in the world in 2012 and didn’t win it. They were not even close to playing like the best team in the world in 2016 and won it.

Ronaldo got lucky with Eder in 2016? How about 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012....

If Juve gets past the quarters it will have been the 12th time Ronaldo gets to the Champions League semifinals in the past 13 years. It’s not luck.

Luck is scoring offside goals and not getting penalized for it, it's having your worst match ups (Barca) choke and go out earlier than expected, it's not getting carded like players like Casemiro, it's getting opposing players injured or goalies supposedly having concussions.

Luck is a HUGE factor in CL. Every Cl winner has had something big go their way, whether it's a very dubious penalty, escaping without punishment, or opposing team injuries.

 

[Prometheus]

But they weren't better than Madrid man. Madrid beat them head to head. Not saying it was a huge gap or anything, but those Mou teams were deadly.

Head to head almost never says anything, though (they lost one cup game and a league game to Real). It's just that after the season ended a lot of people revised their views of them after they were outclassed by Bayern.

 

[Daysleeper]

You can analysis all day and conclude Messi has bigger impact because of his overall performance in build up play etc.

But for me its pointless, as Ronaldo impact in winning the games and trophies, is essentially just the same. Its just that Messi does the same thing in a different way, more eye-pleasing, and more admirable. But Ronaldo does things in a more clutch way, more wow moments for me.

To me, Ronaldo in 2017 CL run, is nothing less than amazing, its really wow. Only Maradona in 86 WC is better, imho.

I'd take Messi 2015 CL run over Ronaldo's 2017 run. But Ronaldo's 2017 run was incredible no question.

 

[Peyroteo]

If we are going the NBA route, take away curry and lebron's PPG and LeBron is still the significantly better player.

I understand that "taking away goals" may make for a foolish argument, because goals are obviously important, but even for the NBA you definitely have players who can score like crazy (like Damian Lillard) but not provide much else.

LeBron scores as much as Jordan and assists more than Jordan... rebounds more too.

Is he a better player? Is he feck.

 

[Peyroteo]

But they weren't better than Madrid man. Madrid beat them head to head. Not saying it was a huge gap or anything, but those Mou teams were deadly.

In 2012-13 by his third season? Deadly?

More like suicidal

 

[Prometheus]

I'll ask @Zehner and @Ishdalar too - which years, from 2006-2018, would you say

• Ronaldo had the better team?
• Messi had the better team?

 

[MrEleson]

Very interesting

 

[Peyroteo]

Very interesting

Wouldn’t be surprised if Ronaldo ends the season with more dribbles than in the past 3 years combined.

Messi fans should be loving this version of Ronaldo, it will do wonders for his whoscored ratings too

 

[RedRonaldo]

Very interesting

Very interesting indeed the contrary

 

[MrEleson]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Ronaldo ends the season with more dribbles than in the past 3 years combined.

Messi fans should be loving this version of Ronaldo, it will do wonders for his whoscored ratings too

Just shows that he never truly lost it. It’s just that his tactical role and dynamic in the Real Madrid team changed. He was no longer required to do that amount of work on the ball. At Juve, they have very few ball carriers which is why he is a lot more involved and it’s great to see but not sure it’s the best for him as he ages. Playing the way he did at Madrid would have preserved his body better in the long run.

 

[Zehner]

Luck evens out. They’ve been playing it for almost 15 years now.

Madrid played like the best team in the world in 2012 and didn’t win it. They were not even close to playing like the best team in the world in 2016 and won it.

Ronaldo got lucky with Eder in 2016? How about 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2018...

If Juve gets past the quarters it will have been the 12th time Ronaldo gets to the Champions League semifinals in the past 13 years. It’s not luck.

Not too long ago you told me my knowledge of statistics is embarassing.

At best you are playing 9 CL knockout games a season. Assuming Barca and Madrid made it to the quarters on average (too lazy to look up the real numbers) this would equal 6 KO matches. Considering a 9 year period this equals 45 games. In a competition in which one day of bad luck can rob you of any chance to compensate and where the odds get closer each game you progress. If you believe that this sample size is large enough to even luck out, then you should refresh your statistic skills because that's simply notnthe case. Three in a row is an amazing achievement but it is clear as day that it involved much luck - just like the trophies Barca won by the way.

 

[Daysleeper]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Ronaldo ends the season with more dribbles than in the past 3 years combined.

Messi fans should be loving this version of Ronaldo, it will do wonders for his whoscored ratings too

Why is he forced to dribble so much for Juventus? Lack of a strong midfield?

 

[Zehner]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Ronaldo ends the season with more dribbles than in the past 3 years combined.

Messi fans should be loving this version of Ronaldo, it will do wonders for his whoscored ratings too

I do love it indeed

 

[Daysleeper]

LeBron scores as much as Jordan and assists more than Jordan... rebounds more too.

Is he a better player? Is he feck.

He’s a better all around player, he is talented at more things Jordan is.

But the title gap is too big and LeBron spent most of his career in an extremely weak conference.

But if someone says LeBron is better I don’t think they’re crazy.

 

[M_R_J_85]

Ronaldo should have moved to Barcelona in 2003 instead, surrounded himself with the best team in the history of the sport, not played any games until he’s hit his prime by faking injury, refused to play as a wide midfielder in 4-4-2 and dedicate himself to have more meaningless goals and assists vs Eibar and Getafe because who cares about the goals, assists and general impact on the game that matter when you can have 7 key passes in a 5-0 League win over Rayo Vallecano at the Camp Nou and have your career averages look better?

Should have put 5 past Young Boys instead of 3 past Atlético too. Should have not rested any of the easier league games in the past years to statpad his way in the league rather than be ready for the Champions League. Should stop having his worst games of the season vs Chievo and Bologna and his best games of the season vs Atlético and Napoli. Because who gives a shit about winning the Champions League when you can have a hattrick vs Leganes instead, STATS ALLEZ!

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Scoring for Juve isn’t the same as scoring for Barcelona. Scoring for United isn’t the same as scoring for Barca. Even scoring for Real Madrid is not the same as scoring for Barcelona. Playing in Spain obviously inflated Ronaldo’s goals during Ronaldo’s time there and it’s done the same for Messi for his entire career. Last year scoring 44 for a shit Madrid team wasn’t hard, probably should have had more. This year he’ll have to work his ass off to get to 40 while showing a better consistent level throughout the season. Turns out playing for a better team that dominates games at will makes it easier to score goals and rack up assists.

You cast Messi and his situation in the worst possible light. Do this if you want. He's still better in spite of your narrative.

In the end.. I know Ronaldo fans hate this, but I'm going to say it anyway, look at Ronaldo playing football then look at Messi who is better at football? If it's really Ronaldo then my eyes and judgement are impaired. It's not that I can't admit Ronaldo is brilliant, he is, it's just that Messi is better.

I also find it ironic, quite funny actually, that a Ronaldo fan is decrying stat padding. Stat padding would be beneath someone of his greatness and he has never done that...

Good for him he knows how to pace himself and is clever enough to pick his moments. How convenient.

Lets forget how much of a failure he's been in the league these past years, you know, that thing that happens most of the time?...most of football. He just isn't capable of being good against Bologna, Chievo and Atlético, I think this saving himself for the champions league is a load of rubbish and even if it isn't, it's just an admission that he can't perform as consistently as Messi and even when he does he isn't as good.

Messi should be a bit smarter take control of peoples collective memories and pace himself, just be generally worse for most of the season because that will get him headlines and tweets in a champions league week.

Real Madrid have always had a capable team since he was there, you act as if he's been playing with farmers all these years.

And I don't think the reason Barcelona are failing in the champions league is because Messi doesn't pick his moments or rest. It's because Barcelona collectively look like they're going to shit the bed every time they play in the knockout stages of the Champions league, they nearly did last night. Football is a team game.

 

[Peyroteo]

Why is he forced to dribble so much for Juventus? Lack of a strong midfield?

Playing next to Mandzukic instead of Benzema is the biggest difference imo.

When Mandzukic was out injured he was playing alone as striker and was barely involved.

 

[Peyroteo]

Not too long ago you told me my knowledge of statistics is embarassing.

At best you are playing 9 CL knockout games a season. Assuming Barca and Madrid made it to the quarters on average (too lazy to look up the real numbers) this would equal 6 KO matches. Considering a 9 year period this equals 45 games. In a competition in which one day of bad luck can rob you of any chance to compensate and where the odds get closer each game you progress. If you believe that this sample size is large enough to even luck out, then you should refresh your statistic skills because that's simply notnthe case. Three in a row is an amazing achievement but it is clear as day that it involved much luck - just like the trophies Barca won by the way.

They’ve been top 3 in the Ballon D’Or since 2006/07. That’s 13 seasons now with two leg ties where luck has a lot less importance than one leg ties and the best teams go through pretty much every time. There is nowhere near as much variance as you say.

Luck definitely evens out. For all the luck Madrid had in the past 3 years, they’ve had plenty of unlucky eliminations too.

The results go hand in hand with their performances in the competition throughout the years.

 

[MrEleson]

And for those saying he camps in the box, look at his average heat map the other day:

https://www.instagram.com/_whoscored/p/Bu8yWNNFxRF/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=15l6mb2doqqi5

Ronaldo being a penalty box, tap-in merchant has to be one of the biggest myths in football currently.

 

[Fridge chutney]

The reality is that these 2, Messi and Ronaldo, are the greatest players of this generation. They are in a tier above everyone else in the world.

We are all, as football fans, priviled to watch their careers. I hope most here, like me, can accept their preference of one player and still enjoy watching the other.

 

[MJJ]

Luck is scoring offside goals and not getting penalized for it, it's having your worst match ups (Barca) choke and go out earlier than expected, it's not getting carded like players like Casemiro, it's getting opposing players injured or goalies supposedly having concussions.

Luck is a HUGE factor in CL. Every Cl winner has had something big go their way, whether it's a very dubious penalty, escaping without punishment, or opposing team injuries.

So you admit that messi and barca choked in the CL three years in a row?

 

[Zehner]

They’ve been top 3 in the Ballon D’Or since 2006/07. That’s 13 seasons now with two leg ties where luck has a lot less importance than one leg ties and the best teams go through pretty much every time. There is nowhere near as much variance as you say.

Luck definitely evens out. For all the luck Madrid had in the past 3 years, they’ve had plenty of unlucky eliminations too.

The results go hand in hand with their performances in the competition throughout the years.

No, it doesn't. Everyone with even a slight understanding of statistics will agree that the sample size is simply too small for that. Cup competitions are defined by luck, no matter if you want to hear it or not.

 

[Daysleeper]

So you admit that messi and barca choked in the CL three years in a row?

Juventus and Atletico are the perfect types of teams to stifle Barca. And both of them went on to the finals with Atletico being extremely close to winning 2 CL’s. Even Real has trouble putting them away as it took a 93rd minute goal and griezman missing a penalty in the 2016 final.

Juventus heading into the final allowed the least amount of goals at a record setting pace before imploding in the lockeroom at halftime of the CL final.

Barca true choke was last year against Roma. Coupled with Simeone’s pathetic tactics in the second leg against Juventus this yea, Valverdes tactics last year were infuriating. Barca didn’t even bother to go forward when down 2-0. By 3-0 dembele was put in and low and behold Barca looked threatening again. But Roma was a bad choke, Atletico and Juventus sucked to lose to, but they were the better teams.

 

[MJJ]

Juventus and Atletico are the perfect types of teams to stifle Barca. And both of them went on to the finals with Atletico being extremely close to winning 2 CL’s. Even Real has trouble putting them away as it took a 93rd minute goal and griezman missing a penalty in the 2016 final.

Juventus heading into the final allowed the least amount of goals at a record setting pace before imploding in the lockeroom at halftime of the CL final.

Barca true choke was last year against Roma. Coupled with Simeone’s pathetic tactics in the second leg against Juventus this yea, Valverdes tactics last year were infuriating. Barca didn’t even bother to go forward when down 2-0. By 3-0 dembele was put in and low and behold Barca looked threatening again. But Roma was a bad choke, Atletico and Juventus sucked to lose to, but they were the better teams.

And yet ronaldo found some way through them, maybe he isnt just a poacher after all.

 

[Ishdalar]

@Ishdalar Can you share your breakdown of who had the better team year for year since they started competing?

Not deep analysis or anything - just state which years you think each had the better team?

I like this idea, I'll give it a try, just I want to remember it's my opinion, I don't consider this the universal truth.

Let's say they start "facing each other" in 2006, when Messi gets his first pro contract, gets starter minutes and Ronaldo has been around for a while in Manchester.

2006

Spoiler: 06 Barcelona

Spoiler: 06 United

I think this one is easy, Barcelona won the UCL that season, we had arguably the best player in the world still in a sweet spot, our defense, while lacking on the FB's, was solid with the Puyol/Marquez partnership, Ferdinand still didn't have a partner like he'd find in Vidic later years. Midfield, while it could look we're way better, Xavi had a long injury, Iniesta wasn't a solir starter so it was him, Deco, Van Bommel, Edmilson and Motta sharing minutes vs Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo... runing United's midfield, I'd say United probably was better.

Then there's Giuly, Ronnie, Eto'o and Larsson vs RVN and Rooney. I'd go with our 4 players, they were just better overall.

2007

Spoiler: 07 Barcelona

Spoiler: 07 United

Not only does the gap in quality close (Carrick in, Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic keep evolving, Evra is settled) but our general level starts to dip, we sign Thuram (does a good service, but doesn't improve our starters) and Zambrotta (a deception, he's better than Belletti, but not by much that season). Ronaldinho starts playing worse, we lose Van Bommel (he was useful), Giuly works worse for us, Larsson is gone (we lose a great sub) while you start going up.

I'd say, by names, if we ask in September who had the best squad, we had it by far, in retrospective, seeing the performances each team delivered, United was a tier above us, we started being done at this point.

2008

Spoiler: 08 Barcelona

Spoiler: 08 United

So... huh... we sign Henry, Toure Yaya, Abidal and Milito. United signs Hargreaves (with what happened later), Ando, Manucho, Possebon... oh right, they do something right, they get Nani and Tevez.

We have a wonder summer window, United shit the bed... somehow he have our worst season in the last 15 years, coped with Scholes thundercunting us out of the UCL, we had a better squad on paper, but Ronaldinho checked out, Eto'o became rabid, Deco was lazy, Rijkaard tried a Deco/Iniesta/Xavi midfield (that was... funny) while your young generation starts hitting their ceiling. I'd say United had, by far, a better team, not players, team.

2009 (this will sting for some people)

Spoiler: 09 Barcelona

Spoiler: 09 United

We have the better squad, period. Players from the past window start looking like themselves (Toure, Henry, Abidal), we have another wonderful summer (Pique, Keita, Alves) topped with some, maybe failures, maybe not that great, but good role players (Caceres, Hleb) and sprinkled with two young kids that come to reinforce us, Pedro and Busquets. Messi reaches Ronaldo's level, Eto'o plays great again, we get rit of almost all the deadwood and we probably have the best defense of our history (Alves, Puyol, Marquez, Pique, Milito (he was healthy a while) and Abidal. Shoutout to Luis Aragones, thanks to him, people started believing again in our generational midfield that was at risk (Xavi wanted to leave).

United gets the brazilian brothers and Berbatov, not bad, but not enough to stay at the top, especially as age starts catching up with the squad.

I'd like to point out, even if we had a better squad, in the "game that matters" we fielded a circumstancial 11 (Puyol as RB, Toure as CB, 35 y/o Sylvinho as LB, Iniesta and Henry almost injured, while United afaik lost Fletcher and Ferdinand had a knock too.

2010 (I'm going to slack a little here, it's taking too long)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_FC_Barcelona_season#Player
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Players

War of the worlds?. In September both teams were basically at the same level.

Cris vs Messi
Kaká vs Ibra
Benzema vs Henry
Xabi Alonso vs Xavi

Garay, Negredo, Arbeloa and Albiol looked like great depth players at the moment, Granero could've been a great player if he followed his progression (he did not).
We still had probably the best squad in the world, but our attempt to improve it (Maxwell in, Sylvinho out, Eto'o x Ibra, Chrgrynsky x Caceres) was, at the end of the season, a failure.

Barcelona had the best squad this year,

2011

Now we enter an era where both teams have a consolidated core we basically remember, transfers are the little key here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Squad_information


We still have the best squad... BUT, there's a change coming, Henry, Toure, and Marquez go, some of those positions won't be covered in years, Real keep improving (bye Guti, Raul, Metzelder, VdV, Drenthe, Diarra, hello Di Madia, Ozil, Khedira). Thankfully we got Villa and Mascherano, god bless them, and to a lesser extent. god bless Adriano Correia. Messi has the better team... but the gap closes.

2012

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Squad_information

So... we're almost there, we sign Sanchez, but our old guard is gone (Marquez, the ocasional Milito appearance, Puyol starts getting injuries). We get Fabregas but that creates a problem, we don't really need Fabregas. Real keep preparing, so long Gago and Garay, is that.... Varane?.

Messi still has a better team, but it's starting to look worse than Real Madrid in our foundation, the defense.

2013 (I'll open my umbrella)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Squad_information

Now, here is the turning point, we're no longer better, at best, I'd said we're equal

Ramos and Pepe are too good, and Varane, while still young, is good, Carvalho has his moments, Marcelo finally comes of age, Benzema and Ronaldo are in love, Alonso, Khedira, Ozil and Di Maria start firing on all cylinders and Modric comes to guide all of them. On the other hand, time has catched up with Xavi, Abidal has gone through cancer, Mascherano is our CB, he's not settled there, we sign Song to be our CB too (lol), Keita is gone and not replaced, Puyol is on the verge of retirement and we still wonder where the hell is Fabregas supposed to be playing.

2014

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Squad_information

Here, Real Madrid are, finally, imo, better than us, way better.

So, we got Neymar, so what?.

Xavi is old, Busquets is manning that midfield alone in defense.
Iniesta may not be too old, but he has 12 seasons of pro football on his legs, and those legs never were that strong
We've lost David Villa, there goes our hard press at the front.
Thiago is out, so Xavi now has to play even more minutes
We have basically one CB, and he doesn't have the best season
We lost the best defensive LB in the world and a CB too in Abidal, yeah, we've won a fast pony with Alba, but he's still a pony
Fabregas, where the hell does he play now?
Nice, so we need to move Alexis around too now.
Btw, Busquets has had athletic pubalgia for months now, but there's no sub for him, so he keeps playing.
Cristian Tello and Isaac Cuenca, what a fiesta!.
Pinto will be our GK, while Real Madrid are rotating between 2 international caliber players.

And what's on the other team?.

Carvajal is back, now they have another thread on the right flank, that means no Arbeloa every game too
Varane is improving.
They got Isco too, "heir" to our midfield
Gareth fekin Bale
No drama, remember the problem we have with Alexis and Fabregas? Well, Real won't have to deal with that now that Kaka, Ozil, Pedro Leon and Higuain are out
Modric keeps growing, so is Marcelo (not phisically... yet).

2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Players

Madrid are still better, thankfully, he have solved some of our issues, the gap closes here but biggens there so, I wouldn't say how much better they were.

+Pros for Barcelona
We now have two great GK's, no more Pinto
Ivan Rakitic comes to the rescue
Luis Suarez rounds our attack better than Fabregas and Alexis
Real have let go of Casemiro and Xabi Alonso without a replacement, how dumb can someone be?

- Cons for Barcelona
Toni frigging Kroos joins Real Madrid (we wanted him, but someone thought he didn't have Barça DNA)
James "are you serious now?" Rodriguez completes an already stacked midfield
Another window, we still have Mascherano as our CB, we sign Mathieu () and no one else, since Vermaelen will be injured, everyone knew that
Zubi, who is Douglas?
Not only we lose Puyol as a defender, but as a captain too
Xavi is super old now, Iniesta starts looking like Xavi two years ago, no hope in the near future for players in their same class.
Our left wing starts showing symptoms of a problem (Alba, Neymar and Iniesta, who defends there?)
Alves is a black hole on the right flank and on the right, kilometers are catching up to Alves too

2016

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Players

We had a shot at Pogba, we brought Arda
Alves is a black hole, we brough a winger to replace him
We have a CB problem, we don't bring anyone.
We lose Xavi in the dressing room and as a sub (he was good at that past season)
Mr Clutch (Pedro) leaves us because he's not dumb.

Meanwhile, some players in Madrid keep getting better (Varane, Carvajal, Marcelo) or finding their spot in the club's history (Kroos, Modric), but they also bring back Casemiro to solve their problem, a sub for Carvajal (now their reserve RB is better than our starter) and Kovacic too, they also finish the Casillas drama.

This season, the gap increases compared to 2015 and 2014

2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_FC_Barcelona_season#Players
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Players

The biggest the gap gets, we're worse at almost every position and depth except GK, DMC and the front 3.

Carvajal is better than Roberto
Ramos, Pepe, Varane and Nacho are better than Pique, Mascherano, Umtiti and Mathieu (doesn't help that we were too slow giving minutes to Umtiti)
Modric, Kroos, Isco and James are better than Rakitic, Iniesta, I don't know why I'm mentioning Arda and Andre Gomes here but there it goes I wrote it.
Even their attacking sub (Morata) was better than Alcacer

2018

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_FC_Barcelona_season#Squad_information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_Real_Madrid_CF_season#Players

Well, at least here the inertia starts turning around, they're still a little better, but not by that much

They lost Pepe, we "gained" Umtiti
They lost James, we gained Paulinho and Coutinho
We lose Neymar, but they don't sing anyone worth mentioning, we get Dembele and Semedo

Our left flank is tighter now with the 442 and no Neymar
Right flank has stopped being a black hole, and players start developing there
Iniesta is not the same, but he has a proper last season now that he doesn't have Neymar fooling around him every game
Our CB's start working again
They lost James and Morata, feels like they've finally disabled cheat codes.


That's my impression through all these years. For these year... well, season's not over, I don't have insight and performances may vary, but, by what we've seen so far and what we should expect from names yeah, Barcelona have better team than Juventus, not worse at many positions (maybe RB, one midfielder and striker?) and with depth more than enough to challenge three competitions.

 

[Peyroteo]

No, it doesn't. Everyone with even a slight understanding of statistics will agree that the sample size is simply too small for that. Cup competitions are defined by luck, no matter if you want to hear it or not.

I think everyone with an understanding of football will have a very different interpretation of the variance that luck actually causes in two-legged knockout ties thus making a statistical calculation completely redundant unless you agree on that.

You make your own luck, it's not a gift. Easy to remember the luck of the winning teams without the lack of luck they had in certain moments. Were Juve lucky to have that Morata goal ruled out in the first leg or were they unlucky Chiellini's goal got ruled out in the second? Were they lucky that Thomas Partey, Lucas Hernandez and Diego Costa were out of the second leg or were they unlucky Douglas Costa, Khedira and Alex Sandro were out of the second leg?

Teams and players make their luck. Refereeing mistakes happen but it's not often they completely decide two-legged ties.

 

[Daysleeper]

And yet ronaldo found some way through them, maybe he isnt just a poacher after all.

Ronaldo was an absolute ghost in both finals against those Atletico teams. Atletico has been getting worse and worse after 2016. Ramos found a way through atletico in those finals, Atletico had stifled Ronaldo in both CL finals.

Juventus imploded at halftime in the lockeroom. One of Ronaldo’s goals was a fluky defection.

Having said that, Ronaldo’s heading ability makes him better suited for parked buses.

 

[Zehner]

I think everyone with an understanding of football will have a very different interpretation of the variance that luck actually causes in two-legged knockout ties thus making a statistical calculation completely redundant unless you agree on that.

You make your own luck, it's not a gift. Easy to remember the luck of the winning teams without the lack of luck they had in certain moments. Were Juve lucky to have that Morata goal ruled out in the first leg or were they unlucky Chiellini's goal got ruled out in the second? Were they lucky that Thomas Partey, Lucas Hernandez and Diego Costa were out of the second leg or were they unlucky Douglas Costa, Khedira and Alex Sandro were out of the second leg?

Teams and players make their luck. Refereeing mistakes happen but it's not often they completely decide two-legged ties.

What would you expect are the chances of Barca going through against Lyon? 90% respectively 9 out of 10 times? Now, even if they faced only teams of that calibre on their route to the title this would translate to a probability of 67%. Add to that only one team they have a chance of winning it maybe 70% and it falls down to the probability of a coin toss.

This is no league in which you can compensate for an unlucky loss. We've already seen multiple ties in which the better team went out.
You are being delusional. I don't believe you don't understand this mechanism, you are simply ignorant to it because it doesn't fit your motives.

 

[Peyroteo]

The overrating of Madrid's squad in the past few years has been the craziest phenomenon in football history.

Lucas Vasquez and Asensio should be playing for midtable teams, Kovacic and Morata can't cut it at Chelsea, Navas rightfully lost his place to Courtois, Isco doesn't play, personal issues but even when he does he's been crap, James is a luxury player, Bale doesn't need anything said, Benzema is great but never world class, Casemiro finally gets criticized for being completely useless on the ball, Kroos for not giving a shit, Modric went from winning the Ballon D'Or and being 'the best midfielder in the world' to being nowhere near it, Ramos from being 'the best centreback in the world' to being nowhere near it, Carvajal from being 'the best rightback in the world' to being nowhere near it, Marcelo from being 'the best left back in the world' to being nowhere near it...

Would have been crazy if someone could have predicted this exact shit was going to happen. Oh wait...

As soon as Ronaldo stepped foot in Turin, the Real Madrid players instantly declined according to 70% of this thread. It was like a magic trick. Probably not the worst thing though, the World Cup in which playing next to 35 year old Quaresma and Gonçalo Guedes was better than playing next to Di Maria and Aguero only happened a few months ago.

 

[Stocar]

Those nine league seasons in Spain should have the highest importance in this comparison. They played for equally strong teams, same amount of matches, including direct encounters. Anyone who watched all those games knows that both players were spectacular and effective, but one of them showed more diverse skillset, more natural talent and greater influence on the pitch. The results confirmed that.

The other player had more success in cup competitions (excluding Copa del Rey), and there is an argument for him being the ultimate cup player. It's almost as if he is able to grab the spotlight by sheer strength of will. That is an impressive quality, but also a bit overvalued. Just like cup competitions themselves, as they are usually decided by details, and essentially favour reactive approach.

 

[horsechoker]

So basically you want to close the thread in its most epic day?

Yes.

 

[Prometheus]

...

I appreciate the effort you put into that post.

I'm not sure I agree with 2015 and 2018 assessments though. You were like one goal in the very last game away from going unbeaten in the league in 2018, ffs. In 2013 Barca scored more goals in the league than even 2012 when Messi had the record year, and were favourites for CL, but regardless I can accept that as a draw. However, 2015 and 2018 it would be very harsh to say Madrid had the better teams, don't you think? You say losing James and Morata feels like they have finally turned off cheat codes, however those players never had a significant impact for the team.

2006 - Messi
2007 - Ronaldo
2008 - Ronaldo
2009 - Messi
2010 - Messi
2011 - Messi
2012 - Messi
2013 - Draw
2014 - Ronaldo
2015 - Ronaldo
2016 - Ronaldo
2017 - Ronaldo
2018 - Ronaldo

Unless I'm misinterpreting your post, you're saying Barca haven't had better team than Madrid since 2012.

 

[Peyroteo]

What would you expect are the chances of Barca going through against Lyon? 90% respectively 9 out of 10 times? Now, even if they faced only teams of that calibre on their route to the title this would translate to a probability of 67%. Add to that only one team they have a chance of winning it maybe 70% and it falls down to the probability of a coin toss.

So what? That's not luck. It's entirely depending on the players. When Messi scores a penalty... there's 80% chance he scores. Did he do well to score it or was he lucky it went in?

You can put literally everything down to luck following that logic. Luck is everything that will affect the result outside of the team's control, not what they can control.

Having a 90% chance every round, being the best team in the world and only having a 50% shot at winning the whole thing has nothing to do with luck if they go to the pitch and play like shit. The deserving team is the better team on the night, not the ones who are better in general.

 

[Charles Miller]

Yes.

You should get a ban for anti-meltdown behavior.

 

[Peyroteo]

Those nine league seasons in Spain should have the highest importance in this comparison. They played for equally strong teams, same amount of matches, including direct encounters. Anyone who watched all those games knows that both players were spectacular and effective, but one of them showed more diverse skillset, more natural talent and greater influence on the pitch. The results confirmed that.

The other player had more success in cup competitions (excluding Copa del Rey), and there is an argument for him being the ultimate cup player. It's almost as if he is able to grab the spotlight by sheer strength of will. That is an impressive quality, but also a bit overvalued. Just like cup competitions themselves, as they are usually decided by details, and essentially favour reactive approach.

What??? Only season where Madrid didn't have a worse squad than Barcelona they won the league and the Champions League. One season where Madrid didn't have a worse squad than Barcelona. ONE.

Ronaldo was 9 years in Spain with Messi, played 8 of the 9 years with a worse team around him and won more than him.

 

[Zehner]

So what? That's not luck. It's entirely depending on the players. When Messi scores a penalty... there's 80% chance he scores. Did he do well to score it or was he lucky it went in?

You can put literally everything down to luck following that logic. Luck is everything that will affect the result outside of the team's control, not what they can control.

Having a 90% chance every round, being the best team in the world and only having a 50% shot at winning the whole thing has nothing to do with luck if they go to the pitch and play like shit. The deserving team is the better team on the night, not the ones who are better in general.

Only in Peyroteo's world view a 50% probability has nothing to do with luck. Well, only if it fancies Ronaldo of course, otherwise you'd be called out for being bad with statistics I guess.

 

[Stocar]

What??? Only season where Madrid didn't have a worse squad than Barcelona they won the league and the Champions League. One season where Madrid didn't have a worse squad than Barcelona. ONE.

Wait, I thought that Madrid were the undisputed kings of European football over the last five years? What gives?