Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Ishdalar]

17-20 year old Messi played with Ronaldinho's free scoring Barcelona, while 17-20 year old Ronaldo played as an out and out winger with Sporting and a Manchester United team in transition.

I prefer Ronaldo because he played for us and for his mental strength. I understand completely the preference to Messi. Both legitimate opinions.

Mean of goals/season:

United (03 to 06) 64
Barcelona (05 to 08) 78

Mean of games played/season by them:

Ronaldo 31
Messi 23

So you mean to tell us that their difference in numbers comes from when Messi played for a "free scoring team" that averaged 14 goals more per season, when he was playing 9 games per season less than Ronaldo?. And that's only looking at league, if we look at raw number of games in every competition, Ronaldo played 137 games in 3 seasons, Messi 101.

Is this a Messi v Ronaldo threat or a Reality v Simulation one?

 

[Gehrman]

I think it's difficult to assess who is the best player beyond a shred of doubt in a team game like football. It's not like tennis or boxing where you can go head to head. At the end of the day Ronaldo and Messi are freakishly close in numbers, trophies and individual awards. But even when we count awards and stats there is much more to football than just that. Pele blows maradonna out of the water in sheer goals club trophies and international trophies, yet a lot of people rate maradonna as better because he had this insane beyond this world skill.

I think in the end of the day it's really about personal preference. Midfielders and defenders also tend to omitted from most the goat discussions, because they don't put up insane goal stats. Exceptions are players like Zidane. But that's why I individually prefer Messi. When he was up front under Guardiola he broke all scoring records, now that he's dropping deep to being more or less a midfielder, he dictates the game, plays sublime passes, has sublime vision and racks up insane goal scoring stats and assists.

Ronaldo is athlectic and a better header, I would prefer him to take a decisive penalty compared to Messi. Also obviously Ronaldo is the greatest goal scorer in CL ever which is obviously an amazing achievement.

But like I said if we are going by trophies and goals alone players like Maradonna and R9 had nothing players like Gerd Muller.

 

[Ishdalar]

I give Ronaldo credit for playing so well at the top at 34, not many players are even half that good beyond 30. On the other hand, despite his comparable statistics Messi is 3 years younger so may still rake in more awards and records. I also take personalities in picking my preference: Messi is very likable and level-headed whilst Ronaldo is arrogant and narcissistic.

There's a bunch of strikers that post their best numbers past 32 y/o, some were even in the best form of their career

Luca Toni
Quagliarella
Aduritz
Ibrahimovic
Di Natale
Jonas
Pauleta
Lucarelli
Julio Cruz

Even Del Piero, known as a top player for more than 20 years got his only top scorer title being 34, Totti's goal@minute ratio was probably better into his 30's than any other of his past seasons.

What's amazing in Ronaldo is his whole transition in position and playstyle, from the player he was 15 years ago to what we have today... no one would expect that flair player becoming an old-school veteran striker that excels in the aerial game, from that list maybe only Del Piero had a similar evolution, and still at the start of his career he was closer to an old fashioned striker than Ronaldo.

Everyone used to say Messi would transition better into 30's territory because him turning into a midfielder was there for everyone to see, the transformation that Ronaldo has had seemed like a long shot, but he's become the best at his trade.

 

[MJJ]

Imagine if Messi got to play with peak Modric and Kroos, one of the best CL scorers of all time where Benzema is top 5, Ramos is one of the greatest scoring defenders of all time and have the luxury of being mediocre in several CL finals
but having teammates actually finish their chances. Even guys like Eder magically score in a euro final. Pepe was one of the best defenders of his generation.

95% of messi’s Career with the better team is an absolute joke. Pep era Barca were better but after he left it was a coin toss where Barca had a better front 3 but Madrid were just as talented everywhere else.

United were heavy favorites over Barca in 2009 and came up short. The only “amazing” Barca team post 2012 was the 2015 squad. Madrid have been humiliated tons of times by Barca. And no, the talent between the two teams wasn’t nearly what the scoreline should’ve been for many of
Those Clasico’s.

Madrid’s core is aging now but Ronaldo had hands down the best midfield in the world for the past 5 years or so. Bale is one of the few players who has scored in multiple CL finals, Benzema who sucks in La Liga but is great in CL is a top 5 CL scorer of ALL TIME in total goals. Ramos has had some of the biggest goals in a CL final this decade, and even Marcelo is up there. The whole squad was very good in CL, not just Ronaldo carrying a bunch of bums.

Yeah he only got to play with xavi,iniesta and busquets in the best club side of all time, if only he had the chance to play with world class strikers like etoo, villa, henry, xavi, neymar, suarez but its such a shame he played with shit players like eder, etc. If only he had a chance to play with the likes of pique, puyol, abidal, alves, umtiti instead of the shit defenders he played.

 

[Nr.7]

What's amazing in Ronaldo is his whole transition in position and playstyle, from the player he was 15 years ago to what we have today... no one would expect that flair player becoming an old-school veteran striker that excels in the aerial game, from that list maybe only Del Piero had a similar evolution, and still at the start of his career he was closer to an old fashioned striker than Ronaldo.

Exactly.
Ronaldo had a la Robben and Gerd Miller carees in one.
He went from a deadly winger to a prolific striker.
The way that the managed to reinvent himself is amazing.

 

[RepardReece]

I never mentioned head to head did I? And who would compare such stats anyway? Why need breakout it down into 100 minor details to compare? Is it even necessary to argue that way? or rather just look at the overall picture and put personal bias/agenda aside?

Anyway, are you ready for the fact? (goals, trophies, individual honours, records)

Individual honours (Ballon D'or):
Messi 5 vs Ronaldo 5
-> match!

Goals (career total):
Messi 599 vs Ronaldo 597
-> match!

Trophies won (minor + major):
Messi 32 vs Ronaldo 27
-> Messi slightly better but only few trophies apart (5), and we also count those trophies (4) Messi didn't involve much (from 2004-2006), so its almost the same

Individual Records:
Messi 120+ vs Ronaldo 150+
-> Ronaldo better but he plays in more countries

Overall: match!

You're forgetting Messi is 2 years younger. I like how you leave out other aspects as well (assists etc).

 

[MJJ]

Mean of goals/season:

United (03 to 06) 64
Barcelona (05 to 08) 78

Mean of games played/season by them:

Ronaldo 31
Messi 23

So you mean to tell us that their difference in numbers comes from when Messi played for a "free scoring team" that averaged 14 goals more per season, when he was playing 9 games per season less than Ronaldo?. And that's only looking at league, if we look at raw number of games in every competition, Ronaldo played 137 games in 3 seasons, Messi 101.

Is this a Messi v Ronaldo threat or a Reality v Simulation one?

The role of a winger in english football was different than the role of a winger in europe due to the popularity of 4-4-2.

 

[Ishdalar]

Exactly.
Ronaldo had a la Robben and Gerd Miller carees in one.
He went from a deadly winger to a prolific striker.
The way that the managed to reinvent himself is amazing.

He has the talent of the best, above the hard work, good body et all, there's what guys like him do, they read your body and attack your weak points by default. What's always said of Messi or Robben, "just wait for them and cover what they always do", it's a matter of when, and "when" isn't random, they do it when your movements make it harder to react to what they do.

Ronaldo used that as a pure winger when he relied on 1vs1 and pace, his "hybrid" version at Real, and still does the same as a striker, he knows who's the weakest player, attacks from his blind spot and even jumps in a way that doesn't let you contest him, he's taken a talent that most elite players exploit only in a single way through their career, and used it in a wide array of situations.

Weeks ago I said that Heynckes approach was to ignore him and some people didn't like it, but you can't outsmart Ronaldo, Ribery, Robben or Messi, you just have to be unreadable, Messi has problems when two players cover him but don't actively try to take the ball from him, they just block him. But you can't block a player that thrives at diverting your attention off the ball like Ronaldo, so you have to minimize his talent as much as you do, don't pay him the attention he wants to use against you, and try to deal with him as best as you can if he gets the ball, chances will still be bad for you, but probably better than trying to anticipate him.

Because, to make the world fair, on top of that he's also the best header in the world and is a top 5 finisher

 

[Schneckerl]

I think it's difficult to assess who is the best player beyond a shred of doubt in a team game like football. It's not like tennis or boxing where you can go head to head.

Oh boy... You haven't seen any Tennis GOAT discussion.

Even for a 1v1 sport it can get complicated depending on the criteria and what you care about.

 

[Gehrman]

Oh boy... You haven't seen any Tennis GOAT discussion.

Even for a 1v1 sport it can get complicated depending on the criteria and what you care about.

No to be honest I don't really follow tennis. But my point was that fx imo Michael Laudrup was one of the best players of all time for his ability as playmaker, but his scoring was nothing special. The same with Iniesta, he didn't have sick numbers in goals and assists, but just by watching him play, you could see he was often the best player on the pitch.

Also like comparing Cruyff and Beckenbaur. Completely different players, but both completely great.

 

[kouroux]

No to be honest I don't really follow tennis. But my point was that fx imo Michael Laudrup was one of the best players of all time for his ability as playmaker, but his scoring was nothing special. The same with Iniesta, he didn't have sick numbers in goals and assists, but just by watching him play, you could see he was often the best player on the pitch.

Also like comparing Cruyff and Beckenbaur. Completely different players, but both completely great.

An all time great who is somehow underappreciated

 

[Prometheus]

Oh boy... You haven't seen any Tennis GOAT discussion.

Even for a 1v1 sport it can get complicated depending on the criteria and what you care about.

I don't know why that happens because the answer is obviously, and always, Gael Monfils!

 

[Hoof the ball]

Messi has 673 games, 588 goals, 238 goals, 54,000 minutes played.
Ronaldo has 794 games, 595 goals, 212 assists, 64,000 minutes played.

Messi has played 121 less games than Ronaldo; scored only 7 fewer goals and has racked up 25 more assists. In all, he's played 1000 less minutes than Ronaldo has in order to accomplish this.

That's a major factor in the discussion. By the time Messi arrives at the amount of game time and minutes Ronaldo has, that figure is only going to increase. Most certainly Messi is creating more chances per game than Ronaldo. Ronaldo who plays in the most advanced area of the field, has demonstrably less creative influence historically. Goal-scoring isn't the only metric for for measurement here, and even if it were, the fact that Messi has only scored 7 fewer goals speaks volumes.

It's also worth considering that Ronaldo often finishes off a lot of moves as the most advanced, and therefore his goal-scoring stats will greatly be helped by benefitting from the creativity provided to him by others, whether by crosses or by passes from deeper. Messi, by contrast, starts deeper, plays deeper, is both the creator and the scorer of goals (in equal comparison to Ronaldo at the very least on goal-scoring stats) and does so whilst operating initially far deeper. Whereas Ronaldo is high and wide for opportune counter-attacks, Messi is deeper and not always the one to finish them off.

All this and yet his stats still show superiority in terms of games to goals/assists ratio. Sure, stats aren't everything, you might say, but it is significant and it can't be ignored.

 

[DeGea]

I think first you need to define what you are comparing. We need to agree on whether it's trophies, goals, appearances etc? I do not think saying one is more skilful than the other is a legitimate/evidence-based way of looking at it as this will be a question of personal preference. It will just be another opinion amongst thousands of opinions..

 

[zkap]

Messi is having a significantly better season.
He has 36 goals in 36 games, is goalscorer in league football in Europe this season (26 in 25, 7 ahead of Cristiano), is top assistant in Europe also. In the CL, he has 8 goals in just 6 games, again top scorer in that competition.
Cristiano is having a good season, though only has 25 in 36. In the CL, his numbers are way down on previous seasons, he only has 4 in 7.
How do you give the edge to Ronaldo? Because of one great match? Messi has been unquestionably better this season. Ronaldos main argument somes from goals, and Messi is killing him in that department this season. Whats he left with? One (admittedly) great match against Atleti? Im sorry, not even close to being enough.

Messi's 17-18 season was the same as his current one. He carried the team in La Liga, carried the team to the Copa del Rey final and at this stage of the Champions League we beat Chelsea instead of Lyon, with him putting in three goals and an assist over 180 minutes. All the while being our best player, scorer, most assists, most everything.

It's more of the same now. Okay, this season Messi has a few goals on Ronaldo, but I don't see how that changes things. Messi performs significantly better, has more or less the same number of goals as Ronaldo but with more assists and all-around better performances from the start of the season until the end of the season, while being more involved in his team's play. He's doing the same thing as he always does and he's consistently the best player in the world. He just spreads it out evenly throughout the season (every season) because he has to carry his team, so it's noticed less. It's boring to watch, I guess.

36 in 36 is not really that different to what he did before, only now Ronaldo isn't keeping up so it's noticed more. Funny thing is, Ronaldo is actually doing better for Juve now than he was for Madrid last season.

 

[horsechoker]

If Juve play Barca at any point in the Champions League this season, can this thread be closed from the kick off of the first leg/final until 2 months after the second leg/final? Either side will be unbearable in the event Messi or Ronaldo decide it.

 

[Peyroteo]

I won't fight who had the better team, that's like starting the Vietnam war against you.

But you do know that Xavi, Iniesta and Puyol existed before 2009 and their trophy cabinet was abyssmal, right?.

Xavi from 98 to 08: 10 seasons, 3 La Liga titles, 1 UCL.
Xavi from 09 to 15: 7 seasons, 5 La Liga titles, 3 UCL, 3 Spanish Cups.

Puyol 99 to 08: 9 seasons, 2 La Liga, 1 UCL.
Puyol 08 to 14: 6 seasons, 4 La Liga, 2 UCL, 2 Cups.

Iniesta 02 to 08: 6 seasons, 2 La Liga, 1 UCL.
Iniesta 08 to 18: 10 seasons, 7 La Liga, 3 UCL, 6 Cups.

You don't see an increase in their silverware since a certain someone became the star, right?

And an extra point, to add perspective



Ramos, Casillas, Xabi Alonso, Varane, Modric, Kroos, Khedira were winning the Champions League with Ronaldo and fecking off in the summer to dominate international football as they pleased. Bravo, Valdes, Pedro, Villa, Rafinha, Thiago, Bojan, Tello, Fabregas, Alexis without Messi get one humiliation after the other.

Spanish has been nothing but horrid in big tournaments since 2012, we're in 2019, two world cups and an Euro have passed since then and Pique, Busquets, Iniesta and Alba have done nothing.

2018 WC dream team: Marcelo, Varane, Modric vs... Coutinho
2014 WC dream team: Marcelo, Kroos, James, Di Maria vs... Neymar
2016 EC TOTT: Pepe and Kroos vs... no one.

Yup, use that logic more, please

Spoiler: Meme

From 2012 to 2019, after Pep left, Messi’s only got to 2 CL semifinals though... between 2008 and 2012 (Spain’s dominant years) he made 5 CL semis in a row instead.

Being very good isn’t enough, apparently you have to be historically great for him to get you that that far consistently.

Did you just put Marcelo on a World Cup dream team? He was atrocious in the World Cup. You can compare them whatever way you want and use those meaningless arguments and we’d be going so far off on a tangent we’d be miles from the original argument. The point is that Messi’s been at a huge advantage over Ronaldo throughout his career by being at Barcelona and having been born in Argentina. Only seasons where there’s an argument that Ronaldo had a better team around him were a couple of the United years and 2016-17 at Madrid.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi has 673 games, 588 goals, 238 goals, 54,000 minutes played.
Ronaldo has 794 games, 595 goals, 212 assists, 64,000 minutes played.

Messi has played 121 less games than Ronaldo; scored only 7 fewer goals and has racked up 25 more assists. In all, he's played 1000 less minutes than Ronaldo has in order to accomplish this.

That's a major factor in the discussion. By the time Messi arrives at the amount of game time and minutes Ronaldo has, that figure is only going to increase. Most certainly Messi is creating more chances per game than Ronaldo. Ronaldo who plays in the most advanced area of the field, has demonstrably less creative influence historically. Goal-scoring isn't the only metric for for measurement here, and even if it were, the fact that Messi has only scored 7 fewer goals speaks volumes.

It's also worth considering that Ronaldo often finishes off a lot of moves as the most advanced, and therefore his goal-scoring stats will greatly be helped by benefitting from the creativity provided to him by others, whether by crosses or by passes from deeper. Messi, by contrast, starts deeper, plays deeper, is both the creator and the scorer of goals (in equal comparison to Ronaldo at the very least on goal-scoring stats) and does so whilst operating initially far deeper. Whereas Ronaldo is high and wide for opportune counter-attacks, Messi is deeper and not always the one to finish them off.

All this and yet his stats still show superiority in terms of games to goals/assists ratio. Sure, stats aren't everything, you might say, but it is significant and it can't be ignored.

Ronaldo should have moved to Barcelona in 2003 instead, surrounded himself with the best team in the history of the sport, not played any games until he’s hit his prime by faking injury, refused to play as a wide midfielder in 4-4-2 and dedicate himself to have more meaningless goals and assists vs Eibar and Getafe because who cares about the goals, assists and general impact on the game that matter when you can have 7 key passes in a 5-0 League win over Rayo Vallecano at the Camp Nou and have your career averages look better?

Should have put 5 past Young Boys instead of 3 past Atlético too. Should have not rested any of the easier league games in the past years to statpad his way in the league rather than be ready for the Champions League. Should stop having his worst games of the season vs Chievo and Bologna and his best games of the season vs Atlético and Napoli. Because who gives a shit about winning the Champions League when you can have a hattrick vs Leganes instead, STATS ALLEZ!

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Scoring for Juve isn’t the same as scoring for Barcelona. Scoring for United isn’t the same as scoring for Barca. Even scoring for Real Madrid is not the same as scoring for Barcelona. Playing in Spain obviously inflated Ronaldo’s goals during Ronaldo’s time there and it’s done the same for Messi for his entire career. Last year scoring 44 for a shit Madrid team wasn’t hard, probably should have had more. This year he’ll have to work his ass off to get to 40 while showing a better consistent level throughout the season. Turns out playing for a better team that dominates games at will makes it easier to score goals and rack up assists.

 

[RedDevil@84]

If Juve play Barca at any point in the Champions League this season, can this thread be closed from the kick off of the first leg/final until 2 months after the second leg/final? Either side will be unbearable in the event Messi or Ronaldo decide it.

The "unwatch thread" option

 

[Zehner]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

You literally can't make that up

 

[horsechoker]

The "unwatch thread" option

It's not for me, it's for the good of humanity.

 

[VP]

Ronaldo should have moved to Barcelona in 2003 instead, surrounded himself with the best team in the history of the sport, not played any games until he’s hit his prime by faking injury, refused to play as a wide midfielder in 4-4-2 and dedicate himself to have more meaningless goals and assists vs Eibar and Getafe because who cares about the goals, assists and general impact on the game that matter when you can have 7 key passes in a 5-0 League win over Rayo Vallecano at the Camp Nou and have your career averages look better?

Should have put 5 past Young Boys instead of 3 past Atlético too. Should have not rested any of the easier league games in the past years to statpad his way in the league rather than be ready for the Champions League. Should stop having his worst games of the season vs Chievo and Bologna and his best games of the season vs Atlético and Napoli. Because who gives a shit about winning the Champions League when you can have a hattrick vs Leganes instead, STATS ALLEZ!

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Scoring for Juve isn’t the same as scoring for Barcelona. Scoring for United isn’t the same as scoring for Barca. Even scoring for Real Madrid is not the same as scoring for Barcelona. Playing in Spain obviously inflated Ronaldo’s goals during Ronaldo’s time there and it’s done the same for Messi for his entire career. Last year scoring 44 for a shit Madrid team wasn’t hard, probably should have had more. This year he’ll have to work his ass off to get to 40 while showing a better consistent level throughout the season. Turns out playing for a better team that dominates games at will makes it easier to score goals and rack up assists.

this is pathetic

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Ronaldo should have moved to Barcelona in 2003 instead, surrounded himself with the best team in the history of the sport, not played any games until he’s hit his prime by faking injury, refused to play as a wide midfielder in 4-4-2 and dedicate himself to have more meaningless goals and assists vs Eibar and Getafe because who cares about the goals, assists and general impact on the game that matter when you can have 7 key passes in a 5-0 League win over Rayo Vallecano at the Camp Nou and have your career averages look better?

Should have put 5 past Young Boys instead of 3 past Atlético too. Should have not rested any of the easier league games in the past years to statpad his way in the league rather than be ready for the Champions League. Should stop having his worst games of the season vs Chievo and Bologna and his best games of the season vs Atlético and Napoli. Because who gives a shit about winning the Champions League when you can have a hattrick vs Leganes instead, STATS ALLEZ!

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Scoring for Juve isn’t the same as scoring for Barcelona. Scoring for United isn’t the same as scoring for Barca. Even scoring for Real Madrid is not the same as scoring for Barcelona. Playing in Spain obviously inflated Ronaldo’s goals during Ronaldo’s time there and it’s done the same for Messi for his entire career. Last year scoring 44 for a shit Madrid team wasn’t hard, probably should have had more. This year he’ll have to work his ass off to get to 40 while showing a better consistent level throughout the season. Turns out playing for a better team that dominates games at will makes it easier to score goals and rack up assists.

have a day off brother!

 

[Peyroteo]

this is pathetic

have a day off brother!

Literally the first day I post here in a month.

Nice to see nothing’s changed

 

[Schneckerl]

No to be honest I don't really follow tennis. But my point was that fx imo Michael Laudrup was one of the best players of all time for his ability as playmaker, but his scoring was nothing special. The same with Iniesta, he didn't have sick numbers in goals and assists, but just by watching him play, you could see he was often the best player on the pitch.

Also like comparing Cruyff and Beckenbaur. Completely different players, but both completely great.

Not arguing with your general point.

Just saying no matter what sport/activity there is always some subjectivity involved and people will argue no matter what.
It gets proportionaly harder to rank player in a rather complex sport teamsport with many factors involved like football.

 

[RedRonaldo]

You're forgetting Messi is 2 years younger. I like how you leave out other aspects as well (assists etc).

Assists? Sure

Ronaldo has more assists in CL (42 vs 30)

Messi has more assists in league (161 vs 134).

Their all time club career assists stats is like: Messi 230 vs Ronaldo 190,

 

[Jagga7]

Messi is better, not even close.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

I find fanboys of individual players a bit tedious. I know a lot of Messi fanboys personally that are Barca "fans" because of Messi. They used to like Real Madrid too a lot of them. They criticize Ronaldo and always told me he sucks through 2014 World Cup, Euro 2016 and last World Cup bringing up stats like "Ronaldo has never scored in a KO game at the World Cup", when in fact Messi has played more and scored zero also and in a traditionally stronger national team. That's fanboys and both sides them have them. I was watching Juventus-Atletico in a bar near work on my lunch the other day and two guys that I saw last year rooting for Real Madrid were going nuts for Ronaldo and Juve now. Mental.

Anyway, rant over. The fanboys ruin it for me but what I'll say is that Messi is the better player, Ronaldo is the greater player. The former is debatable based on what you look for, your eye test etc; the latter is not that debatable. The big game record, the track record across multiple countries, the Champions League count (despite playing in the inferior side in about 8/10 seasons they'd been winning it), the fact Portugal have won something etc;

 

[Tostao_80]

This thread was nice and peaceful when I went to bed - good to see it's back to its usual shitflinging and circular arguments once more.

Just to add to it, for all Ronaldo's heroics on Tuesday and it was a different circumstance against a better team - Messi actually

Mean of goals/season:

United (03 to 06) 64
Barcelona (05 to 08) 78

Mean of games played/season by them:

Ronaldo 31
Messi 23

So you mean to tell us that their difference in numbers comes from when Messi played for a "free scoring team" that averaged 14 goals more per season, when he was playing 9 games per season less than Ronaldo?. And that's only looking at league, if we look at raw number of games in every competition, Ronaldo played 137 games in 3 seasons, Messi 101.

Is this a Messi v Ronaldo threat or a Reality v Simulation one?

Messi has 673 games, 588 goals, 238 goals, 54,000 minutes played.
Ronaldo has 794 games, 595 goals, 212 assists, 64,000 minutes played.

Messi has played 121 less games than Ronaldo; scored only 7 fewer goals and has racked up 25 more assists. In all, he's played 1000 less minutes than Ronaldo has in order to accomplish this.

That's a major factor in the discussion. By the time Messi arrives at the amount of game time and minutes Ronaldo has, that figure is only going to increase. Most certainly Messi is creating more chances per game than Ronaldo. Ronaldo who plays in the most advanced area of the field, has demonstrably less creative influence historically. Goal-scoring isn't the only metric for for measurement here, and even if it were, the fact that Messi has only scored 7 fewer goals speaks volumes.

It's also worth considering that Ronaldo often finishes off a lot of moves as the most advanced, and therefore his goal-scoring stats will greatly be helped by benefitting from the creativity provided to him by others, whether by crosses or by passes from deeper. Messi, by contrast, starts deeper, plays deeper, is both the creator and the scorer of goals (in equal comparison to Ronaldo at the very least on goal-scoring stats) and does so whilst operating initially far deeper. Whereas Ronaldo is high and wide for opportune counter-attacks, Messi is deeper and not always the one to finish them off.

All this and yet his stats still show superiority in terms of games to goals/assists ratio. Sure, stats aren't everything, you might say, but it is significant and it can't be ignored.

What will the likes of Peyroteo and Cal do when Messi overtakes Ronaldo in career goals scored (and likely) becomes the greatest goalscorer the world have ever seen? Isnt that their go-to? Messi will end up being a better goalscorer and also a much better playmaker to boot. I see that Peyroteo has already started his next phase of the argument (but he only scores against Leganes and Getafe). Whats Messis record against the Madrids, Sevillas and Atleticos of this world? Furthermore, whats his record against the English? They are quickly running out of excuses, and i love it.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi is better, not even close.

Why do they build a better team around him and win less then?

Surely Barcelona are the huge favourites for the Champions League then... if Ronaldo isn’t close to Messi, Mandzukic isn’t close to Suarez, the midfield are worlds apart... I wonder which great results this clear superiority will bring.

 

[Jagga7]

Why do they build a better team around him and win less then?

Surely Barcelona are the huge favourites for the Champions League then... if Ronaldo isn’t close to Messi, Mandzukic isn’t close to Suarez, the midfield are worlds apart... I wonder which great results this clear superiority will bring.

Just accept Messi is better and move on with your life.

 

[Posh Red]

Why do they build a better team around him and win less then?

Surely Barcelona are the huge favourites for the Champions League then... if Ronaldo isn’t close to Messi, Mandzukic isn’t close to Suarez, the midfield are worlds apart... I wonder which great results this clear superiority will bring.

Well yeah, of course they are favourites ahead of Juve with all of the bookies. Don’t really get your point here.

 

[Peyroteo]

What will the likes of Peyroteo and Cal do when Messi overtakes Ronaldo in career goals scored (and likely) becomes the greatest goalscorer the world have ever seen? Isnt that their go-to? Messi will end up being a better goalscorer and also a much better playmaker to boot. I see that Peyroteo has already started his next phase of the argument (but he only scores against Leganes and Getafe). Whats Messis record against the Madrids, Sevillas and Atleticos of this world? Furthermore, whats his record against the English? They are quickly running out of excuses, and i love it.

I see the epidemic of complete idiocy and lack of understanding of the sport that sees attacking play as a combination of goalscoring and playmaking isn’t dead yet.

I want Messi to score 60 goals in each of his next 3 seasons, Ronaldo to score 30, Juve to win 3 CLs on the back of those goals only for people here to argue Messi’s better because he scores more. Ronaldo has 19 goals in Serie A, the league’s won. Can’t wait to see how many irrelevant goals he scores next to see if I can rate him highly or not... what a beautiful sport. It’s the stuff of legend, the legacy defining months to see if Ronaldo ends with 30 league goals or 20 that will shift perspective on his performances

No shit Messi will score more... he plays for Barcelona. What do you expect? For Ronaldo to score more at Juve? How thick do you have to be to care more about their numbers than the impact they have on their teams?

Football is still played on a football pitch. When it starts being played on a stats sheet Messi will be the better player.

 

[Prometheus]

Whats Messis record against the Madrids, Sevillas and Atleticos of this world? Furthermore, whats his record against the English? They are quickly running out of excuses, and i love it.

Madrid and Sevilla probably really good! For Atletico, see this:

No hat-tricks and only one brace against Simeone's Atletico. 11 goals in total in the eight years and three months since Simeone took over, in 24 games. Ronaldo has 21 goals, four hat-tricks and one brace in 28 games and curiously also has more assists than Messi.

Ronaldo is clearly a more effective player against teams that play a predominantly defensive game. Not really surprising considering his aerial prowess, since high balls into the box are the best way to cause chaos against teams that set up a fortress inside their own box. Nevertheless bagging a total of four hat-tricks against a team like that is astonishing. I wonder if any other player has even one?

 

[NinjaFletch]

I see the epidemic of complete idiocy and lack of understanding of the sport that sees attacking play as a combination of goalscoring and playmaking isn’t dead yet.

I want Messi to score 60 goals in each of his next 3 seasons, Ronaldo to score 30, Juve to win 3 CLs on the back of those goals only for people here to argue Messi’s better because he scores more.

No shit Messi will score more... he plays for Barcelona. What do you expect? For Ronaldo to score more at Juve?

How thick do you have to be to care more about their numbers than the impact they have on their teams?

Football is still played on a football pitch. When it starts being played on a stats sheet Messi will be the better player.

Err, this is a parody post, right?

 

[Ishdalar]

From 2012 to 2019, after Pep left, Messi’s only got to 2 CL semifinals though... between 2008 and 2012 (Spain’s dominant years) he made 5 CL semis in a row instead.

Being very good isn’t enough, apparently you have to be historically great for him to get you that that far consistently.

Did you just put Marcelo on a World Cup dream team? He was atrocious in the World Cup. You can compare them whatever way you want and use those meaningless arguments and we’d be going so far off on a tangent we’d be miles from the original argument. The point is that Messi’s been at a huge advantage over Ronaldo throughout his career by being at Barcelona and having been born in Argentina. Only seasons where there’s an argument that Ronaldo had a better team around him were a couple of the United years and 2016-17 at Madrid.

Yeah, because football is a team sport?. That's why a good midfield and defense for Real Madrid with Ronaldo has netted 4 UCL titles, instead of Arbeloa, Carvalho, Coentrao and Lass. It's harder reaching sf's consistently when your midfield and your defense are not at the top level. Mascherano as a CB for years? Alba as our LB? we've been playing russian roulette every season since the 2nd treble (included, that's the time thinks worked our way).

You can write another bible, this

Spoiler: RM 11/12

Doesn't have the same level of this

Spoiler: RM 16/17

"I'm going to give 800 minutes to Kaká, Sahin and Granero" vs "I'll give those minutes to Isco, James and Kovacic"

BTW, I didn't put Marcelo in the dream team, the people that choose the award did it, not that it matters to you, Maradona could've played for Real Madrid the last 5 years and you'd call him a "poor's man Coutinho".

Ronaldo should have moved to Barcelona in 2003 instead, surrounded himself with the best team in the history of the sport, not played any games until he’s hit his prime by faking injury, refused to play as a wide midfielder in 4-4-2 and dedicate himself to have more meaningless goals and assists vs Eibar and Getafe because who cares about the goals, assists and general impact on the game that matter when you can have 7 key passes in a 5-0 League win over Rayo Vallecano at the Camp Nou and have your career averages look better?

Should have put 5 past Young Boys instead of 3 past Atlético too. Should have not rested any of the easier league games in the past years to statpad his way in the league rather than be ready for the Champions League. Should stop having his worst games of the season vs Chievo and Bologna and his best games of the season vs Atlético and Napoli. Because who gives a shit about winning the Champions League when you can have a hattrick vs Leganes instead, STATS ALLEZ!

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Scoring for Juve isn’t the same as scoring for Barcelona. Scoring for United isn’t the same as scoring for Barca. Even scoring for Real Madrid is not the same as scoring for Barcelona. Playing in Spain obviously inflated Ronaldo’s goals during Ronaldo’s time there and it’s done the same for Messi for his entire career. Last year scoring 44 for a shit Madrid team wasn’t hard, probably should have had more. This year he’ll have to work his ass off to get to 40 while showing a better consistent level throughout the season. Turns out playing for a better team that dominates games at will makes it easier to score goals and rack up assists.

Enjoy the meltdown

1/3rd of those Pichichi trophies were won by Messi

Di Natale, Cavani, Immobile, Higuain, Icardi, or Dzeko can hit 30 goals in Serie A, the best player ever can't hit 40, because his team doesn't dominate enough.

2018 95 points, 86 goals
2017 91 points, 77 goals
2016 91 points 75 goals
2015 87 points 72 goals

It's not the 100M striker who has to improve his team's scoring numbers, is the 7th time in a row Italian juggernaut who fails to bring the goat the right circumstances to hit 40 goals

 

[Prometheus]

Err, this is a parody post, right?

Why? The impact that Ronaldo had for his teams has been incredible, greater than Messi in the CL for example!

 

[NinjaFletch]

Why? The impact that Ronaldo had for his teams has been incredible, greater than Messi in the CL for example!

Because that poster has been stat bashing about Ronaldo since he joined the site.

 

[Zehner]

Err, this is a parody post, right?

This is getting better and better. He has to be taking the piss right now

 

[Peyroteo]

Well yeah, of course they are favourites ahead of Juve with all of the bookies. Don’t really get your point here.

The point is that if Messi is miles better than Ronaldo, with a miles better team around him.... maybe they should be subject to a lot more pressure to win the competition rather than having people pretending they’re on even ground.

Maybe the best player of all time with no one even close to him in his generation should need a bit less than the greatest team of all time or generational talents like Neymar and Suarez next to him to get to ONE Champions League final or win ONE international tournament.