Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

The same gospel as saying only UCL and an Euro final were you barely play are the defining things to put a player career above another one.



Twist it more for the drama.

Lenglet and Bonucci have moved for the same fees, Cancelo runs circles around Semedo and probably Sergi Roberto too, and I believe Alex Sandro is a better defender than Alba. If you want to talk about players that can barely run Anymore, Chiellini and Pique share the same wheelchair, now the problem is one usually defends on his area and the other 20 meters forward. Umtiti is the only player far superior to any Juve alternative.

Our best defenders are Busquets, Rakitic, Arthur and Leo with the ball. But if Juve replicate the Roma formula (6 players flooding our midfield, with 2cb's marking Suarez and 2 strikers for long balls) then is just a battle of Pique/Umtiti (hopefully) vs Ronaldo and Mandzukic on one side, and Suarez vs Bonucci, Chiellini or Rugani on the other.

I kinda know who wins that battle. As Juve did two years ago in the 3-0 game and the 0-0. Every big game in our last 3 seasons looks exactly the same, but Juve are better geared for that battle this year with Ronaldo.

If both teams cross their paths, I'd say the question is who's going to help his team more, Ronaldo for Juve's style or Arthur/Dembele for ours?. If we talk about general level, any manager at that stage knows how to suffocate our midfield, has been happening since Xavi's decline and we only managed to solve it for half a season with the MSN and counters, it's been our achilles heel for years.

Ter Stegen > Sczcesny
Alba>Sandro
Umtiti=Chiellini
Pique>Bonucci
Cancelo>Semedo

How can @Pink Moon argue Juve have a better defense is beyond me. They play more defensive, but they definitely don't have better defenders. It's always the same thing though, become Ronaldo's teammate and suddenly you're fantastic. Don't have to look further than the World Cup for that.

The problem for Juve is it's not even that defense that will be playing, they'll get injuries and have been getting them all season. So you'll probably see Rugani and De Sciglio making the cut instead. The midfield isn't even comparable, both the starters and depth wise. One team got Lyon and the other got Atleti too... it's obvious that Ronaldo has it much tougher to succeed in the Champions League this season than Messi and yet you've got people here downplaying an eventual Juve CL win since the moment Ronaldo went there. If Barcelona go on to win the Champions League you won't see none of that though.

Barcelona clearly have the superior squad. No idea how a match up would turn out and you're making a lot of assumptions on that post. We've gone over the Barcelona tactical problems in those matches too many times and we obviously both agree Valverde hasn't done well and disagree on why he's had the difficulties he's had to set up the team differently so there's no point going over it again.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't think winning a 2 horse race league is comparable to 3 back to back CL's. Ronaldo is also going to win 3 titles in 3 different countries.

Also disagree about Messi's individual impact, for me his reputation has taken a massive hit since 2015, he's gone missing in some of the biggest games for his club and country while Ronaldo just keeps delivering.

It's a three horse race with Atletico in it. Same Atletico that won La Liga and featured in 2 CL finals.

La Liga is the best league in the world and has been in the last 10 years at their peaks, 1 league title at Juve, just because it's more exotic shouldn't hold more weight.

Messi's individual impact changed since the year you mentioned. Xavi went on, Iniesta slowed down. Messi's dropping much deeper to receive the ball and became the main creative hub for the team. Ronaldo has been the goalscorer of his team, whilst in the last 3-4 years (minus this season) Real have had arguably the better side and especially midfield.

 

[Revan]

I don't think winning a 2 horse race league is comparable to 3 back to back CL's. Ronaldo is also going to win 3 titles in 3 different countries.

One of which in a one-horse race

 

[2mufc0]

It's a three horse race with Atletico in it. Same Atletico that won La Liga and featured in 2 CL finals.

La Liga is the best league in the world and has been in the last 10 years at their peaks, 1 league title at Juve, just because it's more exotic shouldn't hold more weight.

Messi's individual impact changed since the year you mentioned. Xavi went on, Iniesta slowed down. Messi's dropping much deeper to receive the ball and became the main creative hub for the team. Ronaldo has been the goalscorer of his team, whilst in the last 3-4 years (minus this season) Real have had arguably the better side and especially midfield.

Atletico aren't really a threat in the league and the stats will back it up. Barcelona spend heavily along with Madrid compared to the rest of the league. While the other 18 teams will be of high quality the gap between them and the top 2 is quite considerable, that's why you often see Barcelona thrashing these teams by 5 goals or more so often.

 

[2mufc0]

One of which in a one-horse race

Touché

 

[PuyolC]

It's unarguable that Juve have a better defence than Barcelona, just like it's unarguable that Barcelona have a better midfield than Juve.

Juve is the team with Atletico that concede the least amount of goals and chances during a season.

 

[Enigma_87]

Atletico aren't really a threat in the league and the stats will back it up. Barcelona spend heavily along with Madrid compared to the rest of the league. While the other 18 teams will be of high quality the gap between them and the top 2 is quite considerable, that's why you often see Barcelona thrashing these teams by 5 goals or more so often.

Seriously?

2013/2014 - Atletico won it.
2015/2016 - Atletico are 2 points behind Real.
2017/2018 - Atletico are ahead of Real
2018/2019 - Atletico are 5 points ahead of Real so far.

only in 2 of the last 6 seasons they were not in the race...

Which team is better in the last 5 years in Europe than Atletico? You can only make a case for Bayern and that's it.

 

[red4ever 79]

Messi has impacted Argentina negatively if anything.

Such an immature myth

 

[Revan]

Atletico aren't really a threat in the league and the stats will back it up. Barcelona spend heavily along with Madrid compared to the rest of the league. While the other 18 teams will be of high quality the gap between them and the top 2 is quite considerable, that's why you often see Barcelona thrashing these teams by 5 goals or more so often.

They are as big a threat as Real. In the last 5 seasons, they have won as many league titles as Real (1 each of them), and have finished twice ahead of Real (will be three at the end of this season).

 

[shamans]

Such an immature myth

Penalty bottling isn't a myth. Messi would fit in well at Spurs.

bite bite bite

 

[Ishdalar]

No. Take Messi and Ronaldo out of those teams and it's obvious to see during Ronaldo's time there who had the best team around them.

The fact that things turned out the way they turned out makes Barcelona fans sick to their stomach.

It's not like Ronaldo won 4 UCL with Arbeloa, Ozil, Khedira, Diarra, Albiol and Higuain isn't it?. Two teams with two very distinguishable eras of players (Iniesta,Xavi first, Modric and Kroos later)dominating Europe. It's like... they needed a good team around to win the biggest competition in Europe?.

Jesus, what would you be saying if Ronaldo actually knocked us the past year scoring twice at the Camp Nou, Messi did that and no one seems to remember.

If Michael Jordan had won feck all playing exactly the same way, he wouldn't be considered half the player he is. All it took was missing a few extra shots and instead of being the greatest basketball player ever with 6 championships, he'd be a great player with 3. Winning matters, it's the whole point of it.

Ronaldo didn't win what he's won by being Nicky Butt. It's not about player's A trophy cabinet bieng better than player B's so therefore player A is better than player B, that's obviously stupid. You take into account the circumstances of it all.

If you stir it for the drama you can make that comparison.

If you keep it in more realistic grounds it's like comparing Tony Parker vs Steve Nash

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/steve_nash_vs_tony_parker.htm

Titles and scoring? Yeah sure, Tony parker was better, for anything else, ask someone that question and say you consider Parker a better player, see the reaction.

Messi having only played in 3 Champions League finals in all of his career with the team he's had around him throughout and having won nothing for a country that has 2 World Cups and 14 Copa Americas to their name is rightfully held against him. You can't just pretend it doesn't and you can't just pretend he's having 10/10 performances every time while his team lets him down because it obviously hasn't been the case.

You know 12 of those 14 Copa Americas come from a comedy era, right?

Spoiler

The event then entered a period of great disruption. The championship was not played on a regular basis and many editions would be deemed unofficial, only to be considered valid later on by CONMEBOL. For example, Argentina would be the first (and so far only) team to win three consecutive titles by winning the championships of 1945, 1946 and 1947. After those three annual tournaments, the competition returned to being held every two years, then three and later four. There were even two tournaments held in 1959, one in Argentina and a second in Ecuador. During this period, some of the national teams were indifferent to the tournament. Some did not participate every year, others sent lesser teams

Copa America, the actual regulated, official and organized event, they've won it 2 times, Uruguay has won it 4 times.

Your analogy is an exageration just to piss on Messi, Uruguay has 2 World Cup titles, no one puts on them the expectations of teams with similar silverware (France, Argentina, Spain, England or Netherlands).

 

[Pass and Move]

Stats, trophies, teammates blah, blah, blah... want to know who's better? Watch football.


Messi.

 

[shamans]

Disagree there. Both have under performed for their national sides. If you are to use Ronaldo's impact at the EURO, you can easily compare it to Messi's WC run or 3 Copa finals.

Neither have big impact on their greatness (between each other) but a big one compared to the other greats - Pele, Maradona, etc...

I wasn't being fully serious by labelling Messi a failure for Argentina but totally disagree that both have underperformed. You simply can't compare the platform Messi was provided with the one Ronaldo was and to win the Euro is a big achievement.

I think Ronaldo did better than Messi with internationals. That's my opinion. I highly rate internationals too. If Ronaldo had won the World cup with Portugal for instance or Messi with Argentina would have . been differetn for me

 

[Peyroteo]

Disagree there. Both have under performed for their national sides. If you are to use Ronaldo's impact at the EURO, you can easily compare it to Messi's WC run or 3 Copa finals.

Neither have big impact on their greatness (between each other) but a big one compared to the other greats - Pele, Maradona, etc...

That's just not true.

Show me a player in football history with the impact Ronaldo has had for this Portugal team through both great and shit generations for 15 straight years. Yes, it might not seem like it but Euro 2004 was 15 years ago now. Will be 20 years by the time he retires. Imagine being your team's best forward in tournaments 14 years apart.

Anyone saying Ronaldo has underperformed with Portugal doesn't have a clue, there isn't one portuguese that thinks that's the case. Fascinating how if we won Euro 2012 instead of Euro 2016 like we deserved to the narrative would have been completely different. We haven't missed a single tournament since he's been here, 2 Euros finals, 1 quarters, 1 semifinal, 3 times out of the groups in the World Cup...

Nearly all those great players who will be remembered by one specific international tournament don't have half the great performances in big international tournaments that Ronaldo has had spread out through all of his career. We have a better chance of winning something with 10 different good tournaments than with 1 great one and 9 crap ones.

It would all have been ten times easier for him had he been born in France, Brazil or Argentina.

 

[2mufc0]

Seriously?

2013/2014 - Atletico won it.
2015/2016 - Atletico are 2 points behind Real.
2017/2018 - Atletico are ahead of Real
2018/2019 - Atletico are 5 points ahead of Real so far.

only in 2 of the last 6 seasons they were not in the race...

Which team is better in the last 5 years in Europe than Atletico? You can only make a case for Bayern and that's it.

That's cherry picking stats, if you asked this question 5 years ago then yes they have been one of the top clubs, but they went out at the group stages last year and I would back Juve to beat them this year. They've won 2 titles in the last 20 years?

 

[Peyroteo]

Stats, trophies, teammates blah, blah, blah... want to know who's better? Watch football.


Messi.

You actually have to understand football and its complexities though, not just watch it.

 

[Ishdalar]

Ter Stegen > Sczcesny
Alba>Sandro
Umtiti=Chiellini
Pique>Bonucci
Cancelo>Semedo

How can @Pink Moon argue Juve have a better defense is beyond me. They play more defensive, but they definitely don't have better defenders. It's always the same thing though, become Ronaldo's teammate and suddenly you're fantastic. Don't have to look further than the World Cup for that.

The problem for Juve is it's not even that defense that will be playing, they'll get injuries and have been getting them all season. So you'll probably see Rugani and De Sciglio making the cut instead. The midfield isn't even comparable, both the starters and depth wise. One team got Lyon and the other got Atleti too... it's obvious that Ronaldo has it much tougher to succeed in the Champions League this season than Messi and yet you've got people here downplaying an eventual Juve CL win since the moment Ronaldo went there. If Barcelona go on to win the Champions League you won't see none of that though.

Barcelona clearly have the superior squad. No idea how a match up would turn out and you're making a lot of assumptions on that post. We've gone over the Barcelona tactical problems in those matches too many times and we obviously both agree Valverde hasn't done well and disagree on why he's had the difficulties he's had to set up the team differently so there's no point going over it again.

Because Juventus as a team defend better, that's a key part in a competition where you risk your chances at 2 games, with away goals being valued x2. And do you really believe Alba is a better defender than Sandro? we're talking about defending, not linking up with Messi.

As a squad, no one should doubt that Barcelona have a better 24 player roster, our 2nd GK is better than Scczesny, and I'm sure Denis Suarez, one of our rejects, would get a fair amount of minutes with them.

But it's a 2 game competition, what matters is how those teams are built to milk the maximum from 180 minutes since Juventus won't be joining La Liga anytime soon. Juve didn't need Ronaldo to be one of the favourites for the past 5 years, it's a bigger challenge for Ronaldo to win with Juve than Real? Yeah. It's a great challenge? He's still on a top 5 contender so not that great.

No one would put Griezmann above Messi if he managed to win the UCL with Atletico this season after winning the World Cup, so I don't think why it would be so importart for this debate if Ronaldo managed to win it with a team that has been close to do it "just yesterday" so to speak.

 

[Peyroteo]

It's not like Ronaldo won 4 UCL with Arbeloa, Ozil, Khedira, Diarra, Albiol and Higuain isn't it?. Two teams with two very distinguishable eras of players (Iniesta,Xavi first, Modric and Kroos later)dominating Europe. It's like... they needed a good team around to win the biggest competition in Europe?.

When Ronaldo had a good team around him, he won more than when Messi had the best team ever around him.

And when Ronaldo had a decent team around him, he won more than when Messi had a better than decent team around him.

Madrid deserved the 2012 Champions League much more than in 2016, that's luck playing its part and evening itself out through the years. Nothing to do with Modric or Kroos.

 

[shamans]

Stats, trophies, teammates blah, blah, blah... want to know who's better? Watch football.


Messi.

If you wanna do it like that, then Ronaldinho.

 

[shamans]

That's just not true.

Show me a player in football history with the impact Ronaldo has had for this Portugal team through both great and shit generations for 15 straight years. Yes, it might not seem like it but Euro 2004 was 15 years ago now. Will be 20 years by the time he retires. Imagine being your team's best forward in tournaments 14 years apart.

Anyone saying Ronaldo has underperformed with Portugal doesn't have a clue, there isn't one portuguese that thinks that's the case. Fascinating how if we won Euro 2012 instead of Euro 2016 like we deserved to the narrative would have been completely different. We haven't missed a single tournament since he's been here, 2 Euros finals, 1 quarters, 1 semifinal, 3 times out of the groups in the World Cup...

Nearly all those great players who will be remembered by one specific international tournament don't have half the great performances in big international tournaments that Ronaldo has had spread out through all of his career. We have a better chance of winning something with 10 different good tournaments than with 1 great one and 9 crap ones.

It would all have been ten times easier for him had he been born in France, Brazil or Argentina.

What's amazing is according to Messi fans Argentina is basically Wimbledon FC now and Portugal is Man United

 

[Enigma_87]

That's cherry picking stats, if you asked this question 5 years ago then yes they have been one of the top clubs, but they went out at the group stages last year and I would back Juve to beat them this year. They've won 2 titles in the last 20 years?

They have been better than Real in the league in the last 5 years. Not really cherry picking mate. Juve themselves bombed out in the group stages not so long ago. Show me a better team than Atletico since Simeone took over? 2 EL titles, 2 CL finals, 1 La liga, 1 Copa del Rey. Apart from Barca and Real, there isn't a better team in Europe than them.

 

[Bole Top]

Juve have a very good team, top 5 in the world. But winning the Champions League with Juventus would be a MUCH bigger achievement than winning it with this Barcelona team and anyone who argues otherwise is either biased or an idiot.

I could say the same for those who are presenting Barca as the strongest team in the world despite doing absolutely nothing in CL for quite a while. Juve didn't suddenly become great. they were already a great and stable team and were only stopped by Madrid in their last 2 CL campaigns + now they have Ronaldo. you make it sound like he signed for Dortmund. both them and Barca are on the same level, followed closely by Liverpool, with City having a slightly stronger squad overall than all of three of them.

 

[Peyroteo]

Because Juventus as a team defend better, that's a key part in a competition where you risk your chances at 2 games, with away goals being valued x2. And do you really believe Alba is a better defender than Sandro? we're talking about defending, not linking up with Messi.

If you're talking just defending then Cancelo is the worst player out there... I'm comparing them overall.

As a squad, no one should doubt that Barcelona have a better 24 player roster, our 2nd GK is better than Scczesny, and I'm sure Denis Suarez, one of our rejects, would get a fair amount of minutes with them.

But it's a 2 game competition, what matters is how those teams are built to milk the maximum from 180 minutes since Juventus won't be joining La Liga anytime soon. Juve didn't need Ronaldo to be one of the favourites for the past 5 years, it's a bigger challenge for Ronaldo to win with Juve than Real? Yeah. It's a great challenge? He's still on a top 5 contender so not that great.

No one would put Griezmann above Messi if he managed to win the UCL with Atletico this season after winning the World Cup, so I don't think why it would be so importart for this debate if Ronaldo managed to win it with a team that has been close to do it "just yesterday" so to speak.

You don't think it would be important for this debate if Ronaldo won yet another Champions League with a third different team? Well, I disagree then. Not sure what else to say.

Griezmann taking Atleti all the way in the Champions League by being their best player would have him going down as one of the best players of the century without a shadow of a doubt. He'd rightly probably win the Ballon D'Or on top of it too.

I have no clue how you can say things like that, if Messi and Barcelona go on to win the Champions League will you treat it as something irrelevant too? Ah, they had a great team, of course they had to win it eventually, Messi was there at just the right time... come on now. Barcelona have the best team in the world, Messi has the best team around him any player could have wished for and even then, it would still be incredible if he took them all the way. Why downplay it so much? It's an insane achievement and he'd be deserving of all kinds of praise and if it goes on to happen you won't see me downplaying it the same way you Messi fans are already doing to Ronaldo when the knockouts haven't even started yet.

Another thing, Juve didn't need Ronaldo to be among the CL favourites in the past 5 years but they definitely need him now and that's what actually matters.

 

[Peyroteo]

I could say the same for those who are presenting Barca as the strongest team in the world despite doing absolutely nothing in CL for quite a while. Juve didn't suddenly become great. they were already a great and stable team and were only stopped by Madrid in their last 2 CL campaigns + now they have Ronaldo. you make it sound like he signed for Dortmund. both them and Barca are on the same level, followed closely by Liverpool, with City having a slightly stronger squad overall than all of three of them.

Anyone that believes Juve and Barcelona have a squad on the same level simply cannot have actually have watched them play. That's all there is to it.

Juve were stopped by Madrid last year, but they weren't stopped by Spurs via a miracle too. They got to the final in 2017 with one of the easiest draws they could have wished for... in 2016, they got knocked out in the round of 16. In 2015 they were a completely different team from start to finish.

It's like saying Atletico have a better squad than Barcelona because they got further into the Champions League in the past few years.

 

[Bole Top]

Anyone that believes Juve and Barcelona have a squad on the same level simply cannot have actually watch them play. That's all there is to it.

I thought you actually have to understand football and its complexities, not just watch it. but yeah, there's nothing left to add from my side.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's just not true.

Show me a player in football history with the impact Ronaldo has had for this Portugal team through both great and shit generations for 15 straight years. Yes, it might not seem like it but Euro 2004 was 15 years ago now. Will be 20 years by the time he retires. Imagine being your team's best forward in tournaments 14 years apart.

Anyone saying Ronaldo has underperformed with Portugal doesn't have a clue, there isn't one portuguese that thinks that's the case. Fascinating how if we won Euro 2012 instead of Euro 2016 like we deserved to the narrative would have been completely different. We haven't missed a single tournament since he's been here, 2 Euros finals, 1 quarters, 1 semifinal, 3 times out of the groups in the World Cup...

Nearly all those great players who will be remembered by one specific international tournament don't have half the great performances in big international tournaments that Ronaldo has had spread out through all of his career. We have a better chance of winning something with 10 different good tournaments than with 1 great one and 9 crap ones.

It would all have been ten times easier for him had he been born in France, Brazil or Argentina.

2018 WC - barely out of the group stage competing with Iran and Morocco. Gone missing against Uruguay.

2014 WC - Portugal out of the group stage in a group consisting of Germany, USA and Ghana. Granted Germany were the best team, but what's the excuse here?

2010 WC - 1 goal, gone missing against Spain.

2006 WC - not really a factor, 2 penos scored, gone missing against France.

2016 EURO - barely through in a group consisting of Hungary, Iceland and Austria. Easy route to the finals where he got injured in the beginning of the game.

2012 EURO - probably his best tournament.

2008 EURO - average

2004 EURO - still very young had couple of good games.

Can't really persuade me that he had a great international career mate.

 

[Peyroteo]

That's fair. I rate Messi's individual impact in a team much higher than Ronaldo's who is more of a goalscorer at Real. Doesn't mean I undermine what he has done or that he isn't one of the best that played the game, just different goalposts.

As an individual Messi's better, to me. Trophy cabinets are difficult to use as an argument as Maradona for example lacks them, yet you would easily argue that he was one of the GOAT's.

If Maradona doesn't win that World Cup, do you think he'd go down as arguably the best player ever.

If all matches throughout his career had been the exact same but he had played like shit in that England match and Argentina lost, do you think he'd be rated the same way?

You just have to look at Zico.

 

[Enigma_87]

I wasn't being fully serious by labelling Messi a failure for Argentina but totally disagree that both have underperformed. You simply can't compare the platform Messi was provided with the one Ronaldo was and to win the Euro is a big achievement.

I think Ronaldo did better than Messi with internationals. That's my opinion. I highly rate internationals too. If Ronaldo had won the World cup with Portugal for instance or Messi with Argentina would have . been differetn for me

What platform? Just having good players with zero chemistry isn't a good platform.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Stats, trophies, teammates blah, blah, blah... want to know who's better? Watch football.


Messi.

Yes it’s obvious.

 

[Enigma_87]

If Maradona doesn't win that World Cup, do you think he'd go down as arguably the best player ever.

If all matches throughout his career had been the exact same but he had played like shit in that England match and Argentina lost, do you think he'd be rated the same way?

You just have to look at Zico.

Of course not. Sometimes 1 tournament creates legacy. Take Platini's EURO and he'll be rated a tier or two below...

 

[Peyroteo]

2018 WC - barely out of the group stage competing with Iran and Morocco. Gone missing against Uruguay.

2014 WC - Portugal out of the group stage in a group consisting of Germany, USA and Ghana. Granted Germany were the best team, but what's the excuse here?

2010 WC - 1 goal, gone missing against Spain.

2006 WC - not really a factor, 2 penos scored, gone missing against France.

2016 EURO - barely through in a group consisting of Hungary, Iceland and Austria. Easy route to the finals where he got injured in the beginning of the game.

2012 EURO - probably his best tournament.

2008 EURO - average

2004 EURO - still very young had couple of good games.

Can't really persuade me that he had a great international career mate.

I'm sorry but that's so wrong, best part about it is he went missing vs France in the 2006 WC semifinal when he was our best player by a mile in that game.

What's the excuse in 2014???? How about playing on one knee and having our only four non-shit players at the time out of the tournament while being dropped in one of the toughest groups possible? Is that a good enough excuse? Only someone without a clue of our 2014 World Cup story would make that question. Barely anyone here has any sort of clue about the portuguese national team or half the players that played for us throughout the years and yet you argue about it as if you've been following any of it. Go and check what our squad was for the 2014 World Cup and what the expectations were at the time. We did well to even make it there.

2004 Euros, a couple of good games? He was our best forward in a team with Rui Costa, Figo and Deco. It was the biggest thing to have ever happened to portuguese football at the time. He was a Portugal legend as a teenager. He's not playing for Brazil, Germany or France ffs.

2006 WC, not a factor.... just arguably our best player and the main creative player on the team, was so eletric in the group stages that the Netherlands' plan in the round of 16 was kicking the shit out him eventually starting what would be the battle of Nuremberg. Got subbed out injured 20 minutes in. Played injured vs England and was huge, it was a boring game but he did play a part in Rooney's red and scored that penalty... then he was incredible vs France in a game where he totally outshone Zidane who was coming off that famous Brazil performance and we deserved to make it to the final over them. What more do you want?

2008 Euros, average? Didn't play one average game, we should have made it to the semis. Terrible refereeing vs Germany fecked us over, that Ballack goal was a disgrace.

2010 World Cup, he went missing against Spain the same way any player in history would have probably gone missing when your team doesn't have the ball at all and you're playing for a Carlos Queiroz team parking the bus. We were fecked as soon as Nani got that injury and didn't make it to the World Cup. Still, we got knocked out once again via ref mistakes with a David Villa offside goal... but yes, the Queiroz years are the only years of his international career that deserve criticism.

Euro 2012 would have gone down as one of the best Euros individual performanes ever if we go through vs Spain like we deserved to. Look at our squad then, look at who our manager was... it was a miracle that we competed the way we competed then. We would have beaten Italy in the final.

The cluelessness in this thread when it comes to Ronaldo's international career is astounding. Nobody outside of the country has any clue of what went down. Nobody even knows who our managers were, who our players were, what the expectations were, what results we got, how we played, etc.

There isn't one player in football history that could have played in his place and got us the results we've had for a time frame of 15 years.

 

[Peyroteo]

What platform? Just having good players with zero chemistry isn't a good platform.

You make chemistry, it's everyone's responsability to make things work.

Do you think Portugal's chemistry comes from the great tactical geniuses that are Scolari, Paulo Bento and Fernando Santos? Ronaldo's played 15 years with us and we've played thousands of different ways, from being a possession team, to probably being the best counterattacking NT on the planet to parking the bus.

Easy to build chemistry and have squad players at their best when you have the star player being able to adapt to any system and any teammates.

 

[11101]

If Maradona doesn't win that World Cup, do you think he'd go down as arguably the best player ever.

If all matches throughout his career had been the exact same but he had played like shit in that England match and Argentina lost, do you think he'd be rated the same way?

But he didn't, that's the thing people miss.

What makes him so great is that whenever he was needed he turned up, it didn't matter if it was with a poor team or a great team, he pulled something special out of it. And it wasn't exactly a one off occurrence. Players on the tier below like Cruyff, Platini and Zico were also fantastic in competitions but either only managed it once or couldn't quite get over the line.

Has Messi ever done that? Not to my memory. He's either been a special part of a special team, or he has failed to get anything out of a not so special team. Ronaldo sort of did it with the Euros and he's done it with 2 (maybe soon to be 3) clubs but i think in 20 years from now both will simply be seen as among the greats. We will still talk of Maradona and Pele as the greatest.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Peyroteo I think you are overrating Cristiano's international career quite a bit. Depends of where you move the yard stick, but if you hail those performances like that then Messi's 2014 and many performances where he was the biggest creative force for Argentina have to be mentioned as well.

 

[Peyroteo]

But he didn't, that's the thing people miss.

What makes him so great is that whenever he was needed he turned up, it didn't matter if it was with a poor team or a great team, he pulled something special out of it. And it wasn't exactly a one off occurrence. Players on the tier below like Cruyff, Platini and Zico were also fantastic in competitions but either only managed it once or couldn't quite get over the line.

Has Messi ever done that? Not to my memory. He's either been a special part of a special team, or he has failed to get anything out of a not so special team. Ronaldo sort of did it with the Euros and he's done it with 2 (maybe soon to be 3) clubs but i think in 20 years from now both will simply be seen as among the greats. We will still talk of Maradona and Pele as the greatest.

I agree somewhat. I think if Ronaldo wins 1 Champions League with Juventus in the next 4 years while being their best player, he'll have done more than enough to not get that kind of comments.

Would be big for Messi to do it at least one more time too but I really think the 2018 World Cup was his last big shot at really pulling off something that would change the way his legacy will go down. Don't think 1 Copa America will do anything for him.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I'm sorry but that's so wrong, best part about it is he went missing vs France in the 2006 WC semifinal when he was our best player by a mile in that game.

What's the excuse in 2014???? How about playing on one knee and having our only four non-shit players at the time out of the tournament while being dropped in one of the toughest groups possible? Is that a good enough excuse? Only someone without a clue of our 2014 World Cup story would make that question. Barely anyone here has any sort of clue about the portuguese national team or half the players that played for us throughout the years and yet you argue about it as if you've been following any of it. Go and check what our squad was for the 2014 World Cup and what the expectations were at the time. We did well to even make it there.

2004 Euros, a couple of good games? He was our best forward in a team with Rui Costa, Figo and Deco. It was the biggest thing to have ever happened to portuguese football at the time. He was a Portugal legend as a teenager. He's not playing for Brazil, Germany or France ffs.

2006 WC, not a factor.... just arguably our best player and the main creative player on the team, was so eletric in the group stages that the Netherlands' plan in the round of 16 was kicking the shit out him eventually starting what would be the battle of Nuremberg. Got subbed out injured 20 minutes in. Played injured vs England and was huge, it was a boring game but he did play a part in Rooney's red and scored that penalty... then he was incredible vs France in a game where he totally outshone Zidane who was coming off that famous Brazil performance and we deserved to make it to the final over them. What more do you want?

2008 Euros, average? Didn't play one average game, we should have made it to the semis. Terrible refereeing vs Germany fecked us over, that Ballack goal was a disgrace.

2010 World Cup, he went missing against Spain the same way any player in history would have probably gone missing when your team doesn't have the ball at all and you're playing for a Carlos Queiroz team parking the bus. We were fecked as soon as Nani got that injury and didn't make it to the World Cup. Still, we got knocked out once again via ref mistakes with a David Villa offside goal... but yes, the Queiroz years are the only years of his international career that deserve criticism.

Euro 2012 would have gone down as one of the best Euros individual performanes ever if we go through vs Spain like we deserved to. Look at our squad then, look at who our manager was... it was a miracle that we competed the way we competed then. We would have beaten Italy in the final.

The cluelessness in this thread when it comes to Ronaldo's international career is astounding. Nobody outside of the country has any clue of what went down. Nobody even knows who our managers were, who our players were, what the expectations were, what results we got, how we played, etc.

There isn't one player in football history that could have played in his place and got us the results we've had for a time frame of 15 years.

You lot must feel hard done by if nobody even knows you won the euro's.

All I remember about Portugal from the last 12 years is that shitshow of match in 06 and Tonny Vilhena bossing Ronaldo in a friendly last year.

Didnt Scolari coach you at slme point?

 

[Enigma_87]

I agree somewhat. I think if Ronaldo wins 1 Champions League with Juventus in the next 4 years while being their best player, he'll have done more than enough to not get that kind of comments.

Would be big for Messi to do it at least one more time too but I really think the 2018 World Cup was his last big shot at really pulling off something that would change the way his legacy will go down. Don't think 1 Copa America will do anything for him.

If that's the case why would EURO's count for Ronaldo?

Also funny to mention who Portugal managers were, unlike it wasn't the same for the Argie sides that were in utter shambles.

Barring one exciting late win against Nigeria, Argentina were an utter shambles, and revelations after their 3-0 defeat to eventual finalists suggested that he - rather than manager Jorge Sampaoli - would be selecting the team for their final group game.

Marcos Rojo revealed that it was Messi's words at half-time which inspired the team to victory, as well as a video footage purporting to show Sampaoli asking Messi if he should introduce Sergio Aguero to the game.

 

[Peyroteo]

@Peyroteo I think you are overrating Cristiano's international career quite a bit. Depends of where you move the yard stick, but if you hail those performances like that then Messi's 2014 and many performances where he was the biggest creative force for Argentina have to be mentioned as well.

Of course, that was a very good World Cup by him but the main point is that playing for Argentina and playing for Portugal are not comparable and that NT wise Ronaldo has more longevity than Messi. If Ronaldo had retired in 2006, he'd have gone down as a legend for Portugal. That's how long he's been around.

His status for us is impossible to be surpassed and I don't think internationally people really care enough about the portuguese national team to understand everything that went on in the past 15 years and how important he was.

 

[Peyroteo]

You lot must feel hard done by if nobody even knows you won the euro's.

All I remember about Portugal from the last 12 years is that shitshow of match in 06 and Tonny Vilhena bossing Ronaldo in a friendly last year.

Didnt Scolari coach you at slme point?

If I was dutch I'd love to erase any Portugal memories from my mind too.

But yes, even with Ronaldo and the results we've got, we're still pretty much irrelevant internationally. Even crap footballing countries like Holland get more attention than us

 

[KirkDuyt]

If I was dutch I'd love to erase any Portugal memories from my mind too.

But yes, even with Ronaldo and the results we've got, we're still pretty much irrelevant internationally. Even crap footballing countries like Holland get more attention than us

We're the poster boys for getting praise without ever actually winning anything. Everyone loved our 98 team, which finished 4th, or the 74 team finishing second.

In the end we're exactly as successful as fecking Greece.

Though in the grand scheme you kinda are irrelevant compared to us.