Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[gibers]

Dream on

I don't need to dream...

CL Titles:

2014...2016, 2017, 2018

The other

2015....QF...QF...QF...

International Titles:

The GOAT

Euro 2016 while inspiring his team...

The other

WC best player after dominating Iran and Nigeria and doing nothing in the knockout Round...but but he can't play with Higuain

but but he can't play with Dybala...

I wonder how the GOAT did with those guys...o yea they all played well with him...

 

[Pocho]

I don't need to dream...

CL Titles:

2014...2016, 2017, 2018

The other

2015....QF...QF...QF...

International Titles:

The GOAT

Euro 2016 while inspiring his team...

The other

WC best player after dominating Iran and Nigeria and doing nothing in the knockout Round...but but he can't play with Higuain

but but he can't play with Dybala...

I wonder how the GOAT did with those guys...o yea they all played well with him...

I don't know, but it seems you are missing quite a few things there, but ok, not trying to argue with talibans.

 

[Pink Moon]

Yeah... Ronaldo is playing with a Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio, Pogba midfield behind him and next to an incredible Carlos Tevez having one of the best seasons of his career. They're a completely different team than in 2014/15 ffs. The narrative that Ronaldo is playing in a team that got to multiple CL finals without him is the incredible one here, and also the far more popular.

They're similar to 2016/17, but they played Monaco in the semis then, got knocked out in the round of 16 in 2015/16 and in the quarters last year...

Anyone who believes it's a guarantee for Juve to win the Champions League is a complete idiot. Barcelona have a much better squad all over the pitch, will they inevitably win the CL too? Or does that logic only work for one side of the coin?

I guess if Ronaldo deserves no praise if he eventually wins the CL with Juve, does Messi also deserve no praise if he wins it with Barcelona? You should answer it now, before any of these two things actually happen instead of changing narrative depending on which one goes down.

They've reached the final since then though...

And you're right. No Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio or Pogba. Just bums like Dybala, Pjanic, Mandzukic, Douglas Costa, Chiellini, Bonucci, Alex Sandro, Cancelo et al.

I'm not saying he deserves no praise if they win. I'm saying that winning the CL with this Juventus side isn't such an incredible individual achievement but it will no doubt take on Maradona 86 levels of mystical crap.

Barcelona have a much better squad? Highly debatable. Juventus' defence is far better and their midfield is no worse either. You could've at least used City as your example.

 

[BaseFishing]

Either you're intelligent, or you think Ronaldo is better...

 

[gibers]

They've reached the final since then though...

And you're right. No Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio or Pogba. Just bums like Dybala, Pjanic, Mandzukic, Douglas Costa, Chiellini, Bonucci, Alex Sandro, Cancelo et al.

I'm not saying he deserves no praise if they win. I'm saying that winning the CL with this Juventus side isn't such an incredible individual achievement but it will no doubt take on Maradona 86 levels of mystical crap.

Barcelona have a much better squad? Highly debatable. Juventus' defence is far better and their midfield is no worse either. You could've at least used City as your example.

Hmmm... the same Dybala that the GOAT can't play with in Argentina?

 

[gibers]

Either you're intelligent, or you think Ronaldo is better...

Where was Messi in all those CLs. Ronaldo is winning Madrid CLs and Portugal Euros while Messi is busy winning most key passes and flopping in the biggest games of his teams season year after year. IF Ronaldo wins the CL with Juve it will trump anything Messi has ever done in his career.

 

[Pocho]

Hmmm... the same Dybala that the GOAT can't play with in Argentina?

Dybala can't play with Messi,not the other other way.

 

[Pocho]

Where was Messi in all those CLs. Ronaldo is winning Madrid CLs and Portugal Euros while Messi is busy winning most key passes and flopping in the biggest games of his teams season year after year. IF Ronaldo wins the CL with Juve it will trump anything Messi has ever done in his career.

Cristiano can win all the CLs he want, he still will be a much worst player than Messi is. It is not a matter of trophies. Let go.

 

[gibers]

Dybala can't play with Messi,not the other other way.

Neither can Aguero, Higuain, Icardi apparently. Sabella, Tata and Sampaoli can't get anyone to play with Messi. Maybe all those other players aren't the problem then...

That's the difference. Put El Kommander in any team and any league he would still give you an 8/10 performance. If Ronaldo played for Argentina they would have a WC and a Copa.

Messi needs the team tailor made which is why he hides in the catacombs of Catalonia and will never leave to test himself.

 

[Zehner]

Still using team trophies to judge individual quality?

Can only speak for myself but IMO it isn't even close and it gets more obvious year after year, eben during Madrid's incredible CL run. Ronaldo is simply not on his level. People are so used to Messi that they simply can't see how ridiculously good he is anymore. You have to remind yourself occasionally how crazy it actually is that the easily best dribbler, passer and playmaker currently in the game also casually scores 40+ goals a season while primarily playing from a midfield position when Barca is in possession. Ronaldinho, Zidane, Kaka, Laudrup, even Maradona etc. were considered the best players in the world during their prime and didn't need to match the goal scores of players like Eto'o, Shevchenko or van Nistelroy to be held in such high regards. Messi is even (far) better than them in the areas of play they excelled at while simultaneously dwarfing almost all great goal scorers of his and their generation.

Goal scoring was never really considered the most important aspect of a "best player candidate". It is a testament to how insanely good Ronaldo is at putting the ball in the back of the net that he still is considered one of the best players ever. When you go through a list of GOAT candidates (say, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Best, Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Laudrup, di Stefano, Puskas, Messi, Cristiano) he is the one falling out of line because he is a completely different type of player. His colleaguesiin that list all were either great dribblers, passers or both. And although Cristiano is good at both he is nowhere near GOAT level in these areas. If you were to write an algorithm that rates footballers and the commonly accepted "best evers" were your training data it would most likely put more weight on the aforementioned skills than on goal scoring. Yet Cristiano's score in this area would be so ridiculously good that he still ranked among the best. That is highly impressive but for me not enough to be placced ahead of Messi who is a fair shout to being the most skilled footballer ever.

 

[Pocho]

Neither can Aguero, Higuain, Icardi apparently. Sabella, Tata and Sampaoli can't get anyone to play with Messi. Maybe all those other players aren't the problem then...

That's the difference. Put El Kommander in any team and any league he would still give you an 8/10 performance. If Ronaldo played for Argentina they would have a WC and a Copa.

Messi needs the team tailor made which is why he hides in the catacombs of Catalonia and will never leave to test himself.

don't know about that, Portugal won the Cup without him. Argentina without Messi almost misses the World Cup.

 

[Paxi]

This thread is fecking shit.

 

[Pink Moon]

Still using team trophies to judge individual quality?

Can only speak for myself but IMO it isn't even close and it gets more obvious year after year, eben during Madrid's incredible CL run. Ronaldo is simply not on his level. People are so used to Messi that they simply can't see how ridiculously good he is anymore. You have to remind yourself occasionally how crazy it actually is that the easily best dribbler, passer and playmaker currently in the game also casually scores 40+ goals a season while primarily playing from a midfield position when Barca is in possession. Ronaldinho, Zidane, Kaka, Laudrup, even Maradona etc. were considered the best players in the world during their prime and didn't need to match the goal scores of players like Eto'o, Shevchenko or van Nistelroy to be held in such high regards. Messi is even (far) better than them in the areas of play they excelled at while simultaneously dwarfing almost all great goal scorers of his and their generation.

Goal scoring was never really considered the most important aspect of a "best player candidate". It is a testament to how insanely good Ronaldo is at putting the ball in the back of the net that he still is considered one of the best players ever. When you go through a list of GOAT candidates (say, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Best, Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Laudrup, di Stefano, Puskas, Messi, Cristiano) he is the one falling out of line because he is a completely different type of player. His colleaguesiin that list all were either great dribblers, passers or both. And although Cristiano is good at both he is nowhere near GOAT level in these areas. If you were to write an algorithm that rates footballers and the commonly accepted "best evers" were your training data it would most likely put more weight on the aforementioned skills than on goal scoring. Yet Cristiano's score in this area would be so ridiculously good that he still ranked among the best. That is highly impressive but for me not enough to be placced ahead of Messi who is a fair shout to being the most skilled footballer ever.

Spot on.

But those abs surely count for something!

 

[pregra]

They are quite equal if you only read the goalscoring stats. If you sit down and watch their games for a season or two or three, it’s not a contest at all. Messi is comfortably better.

 

[Pocho]

They are quite equal if you only read the goalscoring stats. If you sit down and watch their games for a season or two or three, it’s not a contest at all. Messi is comfortably better.

Exactly.

 

[Member 109952]

They are quite equal if you only read the goalscoring stats. If you sit down and watch their games for a season or two or three, it’s not a contest at all. Messi is comfortably better.

Now yes, but not always. Young Ronaldo was a joy to watch. And even then in the CL last few years Ronaldo's been performing very very well, better than Messi anyway.

 

[Ishdalar]

Neither can Aguero, Higuain, Icardi apparently. Sabella, Tata and Sampaoli can't get anyone to play with Messi. Maybe all those other players aren't the problem then...

That's the difference. Put El Kommander in any team and any league he would still give you an 8/10 performance. If Ronaldo played for Argentina they would have a WC and a Copa.

Messi needs the team tailor made which is why he hides in the catacombs of Catalonia and will never leave to test himself.

2009, 2011, 2015 Barcelona or 2014 Argentina are as similar between them as an egg to a chestnut.

How many of the top 10 greatest have managed to perform at the same level on 3 different positions, while maintaining their output?.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Where was Messi in all those CLs. Ronaldo is winning Madrid CLs and Portugal Euros while Messi is busy winning most key passes and flopping in the biggest games of his teams season year after year. IF Ronaldo wins the CL with Juve it will trump anything Messi has ever done in his career.

If you want to discuss who is better by debating team trophies then don’t pick and choose.

Ronaldo won 2 La Liga titles in 9 years at Real Madrid. Messi won 6 in that time.

Ronaldo won 2 Copa Del Rey titles in 9 years. Messi won 5 in that time.

Messi has scored the same amount of goals as Ronaldo in their careers but has done so in roughly 100 less games. Ronaldo is seen as one of the best ever due to his goal scoring, yet Messi is a better goal scorer.

Not including the CL in 2006 because Messi barely featured. Then Ronaldo has 5 CL titles and Messi has 3.

Messi has far more team trophies than Ronaldo, which is what your argument is based on.

You are saying that Ronaldo is the better player because he performed better in roughly 10 more CL games.

Well Messi performed better in a hell of a lot more domestic games in their careers.

 

[Schneckerl]

I don't need to dream...

CL Titles:

2014...2016, 2017, 2018

The other

2015....QF...QF...QF...
..

Cool we really need more opinions from posters who started watching football in '14.

Seriously is there any reason (obviously there is....) why you would look at only 5 years and not their whole career?

 

[RedRonaldo]

If you want to discuss who is better by debating team trophies then don’t pick and choose.

Ronaldo won 2 La Liga titles in 9 years at Real Madrid. Messi won 6 in that time.

Ronaldo won 2 Copa Del Rey titles in 9 years. Messi won 5 in that time.

Messi has scored the same amount of goals as Ronaldo in their careers but has done so in roughly 100 less games. Ronaldo is seen as one of the best ever due to his goal scoring, yet Messi is a better goal scorer.

Not including the CL in 2006 because Messi barely featured. Then Ronaldo has 5 CL titles and Messi has 3.

Messi has far more team trophies than Ronaldo, which is what your argument is based on.

You are saying that Ronaldo is the better player because he performed better in roughly 10 more CL games.

Well Messi performed better in a hell of a lot more domestic games in their careers.

Er.. Messi has a fantastic club career.. but I am sure Ronaldo had won some major team trophies in England for us as well...

 

[Schneckerl]

If Ronaldo played for Argentina they would have a WC and a Copa.

What is this based on exactly? Certainly not his NT performances. Unfortunatly cheering from the sideline isnt enough for Argentina to win a final.

 

[Cal?]

Still using team trophies to judge individual quality?

Can only speak for myself but IMO it isn't even close and it gets more obvious year after year, eben during Madrid's incredible CL run. Ronaldo is simply not on his level. People are so used to Messi that they simply can't see how ridiculously good he is anymore. You have to remind yourself occasionally how crazy it actually is that the easily best dribbler, passer and playmaker currently in the game also casually scores 40+ goals a season while primarily playing from a midfield position when Barca is in possession. Ronaldinho, Zidane, Kaka, Laudrup, even Maradona etc. were considered the best players in the world during their prime and didn't need to match the goal scores of players like Eto'o, Shevchenko or van Nistelroy to be held in such high regards. Messi is even (far) better than them in the areas of play they excelled at while simultaneously dwarfing almost all great goal scorers of his and their generation.

Goal scoring was never really considered the most important aspect of a "best player candidate". It is a testament to how insanely good Ronaldo is at putting the ball in the back of the net that he still is considered one of the best players ever. When you go through a list of GOAT candidates (say, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Best, Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Laudrup, di Stefano, Puskas, Messi, Cristiano) he is the one falling out of line because he is a completely different type of player. His colleaguesiin that list all were either great dribblers, passers or both. And although Cristiano is good at both he is nowhere near GOAT level in these areas. If you were to write an algorithm that rates footballers and the commonly accepted "best evers" were your training data it would most likely put more weight on the aforementioned skills than on goal scoring. Yet Cristiano's score in this area would be so ridiculously good that he still ranked among the best. That is highly impressive but for me not enough to be placced ahead of Messi who is a fair shout to being the most skilled footballer ever.

That's where your whole essay completely falls apart, the bolded 5 are probably generally regarded as the 5 GOAT ever and Maradona was the only one where goal scoring wasn't a key aspect of his game.

Messi may well be the most skilled footballer ever, but that doesn't make him the greatest ever.

 

[Cal?]

What is this based on exactly? Certainly not his NT performances. Unfortunatly cheering from the sideline isnt enough for Argentina to win a final.

Certainly helps more than putting the penalty over the bar.

 

[Cal?]

If you want to discuss who is better by debating team trophies then don’t pick and choose.

Ronaldo won 2 La Liga titles in 9 years at Real Madrid. Messi won 6 in that time.

Ronaldo won 2 Copa Del Rey titles in 9 years. Messi won 5 in that time.

Messi has scored the same amount of goals as Ronaldo in their careers but has done so in roughly 100 less games. Ronaldo is seen as one of the best ever due to his goal scoring, yet Messi is a better goal scorer.

Not including the CL in 2006 because Messi barely featured. Then Ronaldo has 5 CL titles and Messi has 3.

Messi has far more team trophies than Ronaldo, which is what your argument is based on.

You are saying that Ronaldo is the better player because he performed better in roughly 10 more CL games.

Well Messi performed better in a hell of a lot more domestic games in their careers.

Have you been taking lessons on false equivalence from Trump's team?

Are you seriously comparing CDR to the CL?

 

[Schneckerl]

Still using team trophies to judge individual quality?

The funny thing is that none of the Ronaldostans rated players based on team accomplishments in the early 00s, but quickly changed their "opinion" when it became convenient. Really sad to be such a hypocrite adult celebrity worshipper.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

I think if the Ballon d'Or was not the political farse it has become, and everyone was voting objective for who they think was the best player: Messi would win every year. Most fans that are not disposed towards either of them would say Messi is the better player overall.

 

[Zehner]

That's where your whole essay completely falls apart, the bolded 5 are probably generally regarded as the 5 GOAT ever and Maradona was the only one where goal scoring wasn't a key aspect of his game.

Messi may well be the most skilled footballer ever, but that doesn't make him the greatest ever.

Di Stefano? Come on. When I grew up people spoke of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and Beckenbauer, di Stefano was a side note at best. And Pele is the only goal scoring machine afrom these four.

Besides that if goal scoring is that important why did some of the greatest scorers not even make it into this tier? Guys like Müller or Romario? Surely you'd rate these two higher than, say, Zidane or Laudrup who were great playmakers but rather average goal scorers.

By the way, you yourself said that you preferred Cristiano over Messi from day one when the Portuguese still was a spectacular but rather inefficient trickster and very inconsistent goal scorer. When did you change your opinion? I guess coincidently the moment Cristiano turned into the deadly goal scorer he is now, right?

 

[Cal?]

Di Stefano? Come on. When I grew up people spoke of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and Beckenbauer, di Stefano was a side note at best. And Pele is the only goal scoring machine afrom these four.

Besides that if goal scoring is that important why did some of the greatest scorers not even make it into this tier? Guys like Müller or Romario? Surely you'd rate these two higher than, say, Zidane or Laudrup who were great playmakers but rather average goal scorers.

By the way, you yourself said that you preferred Cristiano over Messi from day one when the Portuguese still was a spectacular but rather inefficient trickster and very inconsistent goal scorer. When did you change your opinion? I guess coincidently the moment Cristiano turned into the deadly goal scorer he is now, right?

If Ronaldo stayed a trickster and didn’t score so many goals, I wouldn’t argue his case.

I can accept why some people prefer Messi, but it’s the brigade who claim there can be no comparison or even better, those who don’t worship Messi are not football fans who I have a problem with.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Er.. Messi has a fantastic club career.. but I am sure Ronaldo had won some major team trophies in England for us as well...

I was using what they both won when Ron moved to LL but I included his United CL also.

Baring in mind Ronaldo is 2 years older so was already established at United before Messi was.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Have you been taking lessons on false equivalence from Trump's team?

Are you seriously comparing CDR to the CL?

As expected from you, you avoided the point of the post. Messi won a lot more trophies consistently. My point being we can’t just use the CL wins as a yardstick.

6 LL and 3 CL vs 2 LL and 5 CL.

The LL shows that Barca were better in a long compaign.

The CL shows the ability to perform in a handful of games per season.

Ronaldo doesn’t win 1 of them if it isn’t for Ramos’ equaliser vs Athletico in stoppage time, then Bale and Marcelo wrapping it up.

He doesn’t win it with United if it isn’t for Scholes’ goal vs Barca and Terry’s slip in the shootout in the final.

In 4 of his 5 wins, Van Der Sar, Ramos, Di Maria, Bale were voted man of the match in the final.

The CL wins were not solely down to him so we shouldn’t be using it as the reason he is better than Messi.

Especially as the 2 wins he has over Messi are literally down to less than 10 performances that Ronaldo has to perform at his best in.

 

[Cal?]

As expected from you, you avoided the point of the post. Messi won a lot more trophies consistently. My point being we can’t just use the CL wins as a yardstick.

6 LL and 3 CL vs 2 LL and 5 CL.

The LL shows that Barca were better in a long compaign.

The CL shows the ability to perform in a handful of games per season.

Ronaldo doesn’t win 1 of them if it isn’t for Ramos’ equaliser vs Athletico in stoppage time, then Bale and Marcelo wrapping it up.

He doesn’t win it with United if it isn’t for Scholes’ goal vs Barca and Terry’s slip in the shootout in the final.

In 4 of his 5 wins, Van Der Sar, Ramos, Di Maria, Bale were voted man of the match in the final.

The CL wins were not solely down to him so we shouldn’t be using it as the reason he is better than Messi.

Especially as the 2 wins he has over Messi are literally down to less than 10 performances that Ronaldo has to perform at his best in.

I could swear the Ronaldo won a whole lot of stuff with some club in England... I forget...

La Liga proves Barca were better at dispatching weaker teams, but the CL shows Real were better at the highest level.

Barca doesn’t win one of them if Ovebro wasn’t bribed are utterly incompetent.

United and Real don’t even make any of those finals without him. Are you saying Messi is solely responsible for all those La Liga wins?

 

[red4ever 79]

All of these posts going on and on. It's simple.
Messi is the greatest player of all time
Ronaldo is the second best player of this generation.

 

[Tommy]

Barca doesn’t win one of them if Ovebro wasn’t bribed are utterly incompetent.

Was that the Chelsea game at the bridge? Quite possibly the biggest load I've shite I've ever seen on a pitch from a ref.

 

[Pow]

Was that the Chelsea game at the bridge? Quite possibly the biggest load I've shite I've ever seen on a pitch from a ref.

Try being the fan of the team clearly getting shafted. As didier put it so eloquently it was a fecking disgrace.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I was using what they both won when Ron moved to LL but I included his United CL also.

Baring in mind Ronaldo is 2 years older so was already established at United before Messi was.

Well if you want to sound more fair before making statement like "Messi has far more team trophies than Ronaldo", then better do it in a right way.

Domestic Competitions:

Domestic League titles
Messi 7 or 9 (with 2 seasons winning the league being bit part player)
Ronaldo 5

Domestic Cups
Messi 6
Ronaldo 5

Domestic Super Cup
Messi 7
Ronaldo 4

European Competitions

Champions League
Messi 3 or 4 (with 1 trophy won being bit part player)
Ronaldo 5

UEFA Super Cup
Messi 3
Ronaldo 2

World Competitions

Club World Cup
Messi 3
Ronaldo 4

International Competitions
Messi 0 or 2 (with 2 trophy won being u-20 or u-23 competition)
Ronaldo 1

Overall speaking, their team trophies won are not that far apart, in fact, they are more or less similar.

If include everything, such as all one-off super cup matches or charity shields or u-20 competitions etc Messi has 33 (or 36, if including bit part role), Ronaldo has 26.

In terms of major trophies counted (League, CL, CWC, domestic cups, major international competition, excluding all super cups & one-off match), Messi has 19 (or 22, if including bit part role), Ronaldo has 20.

If count only the major prestigious trophies, such as CL, domestic league, international major competitions, excluding CWC, domestic cups & all super cups, Messi has 10 (or 13, if including bit part role), Ronaldo has 11.

Conclusion
Messi has won more team trophies in all levels overall (minor or major), Ronaldo has won more major trophies overall (excluding bit part role)

 

[Rito]

All of these posts going on and on. It's simple.
Messi is the greatest player of all time
Ronaldo is the second best player of this generation.

This is the exact type of post that I find amusing coming from the Messi "brigade". The condescending tone is ...err..amazing. I know Cal gets a lot of stick around here, but he makes this point literally 2 posts above that the overarching belief that Messi is better and Ronaldo is not even in the comparison, makes some of us hate the M brigade and as an extension, affects the way we look at Messi.

 

[Obi-Red-Kenobi]

This debate will go on and on and on.

All I know is that Messi will score more and create more over the course of his career, and will always be the more popular of the 2 worldwide, because he does more for the team, and he will one day exceed Pele’s official goals (not including playgrounds games, Army matches, and games played when he was 3 years old v his dad in the back garden).

He’s we all on his way there..

 

[Cal?]

All of these posts going on and on. It's simple.
Messi is the greatest player of all time
Ronaldo is the second best player of this generation.

There we go again, the Messi fans holding their opinion as gospel.

 

[Cal?]

Was that the Chelsea game at the bridge? Quite possibly the biggest load I've shite I've ever seen on a pitch from a ref.

The exact one!

Try being the fan of the team clearly getting shafted. As didier put it so eloquently it was a fecking disgrace.

It was the biggest disgrace in football in the last few decades. Uefa desperately trying to avoid a repeat United-Chelsea final and handing the game to Uefalona and thus Pep's mythical greatest team ever ever (with the 6 trophy year).

 

[KirkDuyt]

This thread deserves to be in the dictionairy under most pointless fecking circlular debating topic in the history of mankind.

On topic: Messi is obviously better.