For Messi yeah. According to this thread Ronaldo is quite shit who just scores tap ins and makes false assists, so I guess he won't be missed.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I don't see any player coming close to these too for a very long time. They became better because they fed off each other.
Take away Ronaldo's goals and he is your average winger, take away Messi's goals and he is still a magician, Noone is trying to belittle Ronaldo, but it is no secret that he is a selfish player...does this take anything away from his attributes? NO, and you seem to be fond of this Cal fellow, always giving him a mention.
Are we really arguing about who is the better player without the goals Ronaldo or Messi?
Ronaldo the winger won the Ballon D'or. Don't forget that. Foolish statement.
41 goals.
fecking hell man. Did you even see him then? He was a force of nature, and it wasn't only the goals.
Now he is adapting, as he gets older. Messi will have to do it too.
Is Messi more pleasing on the eye? Of course. Probably the better player? Maybe.
But the belittlement of Ronaldo here is crazy.
Are you a United fan? Did you see him in 06/07 and 07/08 and think he was only about the goals?
Tbh, its not even a close contest anymore. Its actually a testament to Ronaldo that he's managed to keep the 'battle' going for so long, and won himself a few Ballon D'ors along the way. He deserves a lot of credit for that. But Messi is just a superhuman, freak of nature, the like of which we probably wont see again for a long long time. Some of the things he does with a football are simply outrageous.
And I say that as someone who doesn't particularly like Barcelona, and is certainty not a 'Messi fanboy'
And I say that as someone who doesn't particularly like Barcelona, and is certainty not a 'Messi fanboy'
Age is probably the big differentiator here. Ronaldo is hitting the age where he has to evolve to stay at an amazing level. He is currently doing that. Messi is in his prime. Will he be able to evolve when he gets older? That will be key.
He probably has the next 2-3 Ballon D'ors sown up though.
I watched the majority of his games for United, was he only about goals? no, but he wouldn't have been rated as high as he was if he kept on scoring 9 goals every season, he had to score goals, thats the only reason we were alright with him stealing the show every time, i still think the front 3 of Ronaldo -Rooney - Tevez would have been greater if it wasn't Ronaldo and co.
He didn't exactly "steal the show" all the time until his final season. I think you are viewing the Real Madrid player rather than the United one.
He was a brilliant winger. Calling him "average" if he didn't score goals is laughable.
One could argue that Messi is slowly already doing that. Plays much more like a no. 10 now.
He stole the show from 2006 -2009(3 seasons), thats when Ronaldo the superstar was born, he was actually better in the 2007/08 season than he was in the 2008/09 season.
"Your Average Winger" doesn't necessarily mean your average player, he just wouldn't be as special without his goals.
Safe to say FIFA and/or UEFA should have set up an exhibition match where both players would be on the same team....a while ago, it's kind of sad that we haven't seen them play together in the same team.
Download the matches against Bolton, Tottenham and Arsenal from that season. and watch them.
A vastly more prolific Huntelaar, that is all.
I agree with you Raoul. It is just that a lot of people here need to belittle Ronaldo in order to praise Messi. Which is beyond pathetic.
Neither would Messi. A Messi who scored 50 goals a season is probably the best in the world, a Messi who scores 9 goals a season (from an attacking position) would probably be playing for Osasuna or some other club like that. You can't be a striker and the best player in the world if you don't score a massive amount of goals.
Now Messi with his all round play and let's say 40 goals a season vs this Ronaldo who let's say scores 50 goals a season, that is something else and can be debated. But an imaginary Messi without goals vs Ronaldo who scores consistently 50+ goals a season is simply ridicolous to even debate who is better in that case.
When Alba was sent off yesterday, it was as if a voice in Messi's head suddenly instructed him: "You're needed." And he was ghosting past players at will with an SNP-like vigour. Maradona-ish. That said, it then struck me how tame the game is played today. No Claudio Gentile smashings for Lionel. They just let him go about his business.
You're doing what you say people do with Cristiano, that's belittling Messi.
If Messi only scored 9 goals a season he wouldn't be playing as a striker but Messi with 9 goals plus everything else he brings to the table would start for every side in the world ffs. He'd be like a better version of David Silva, or a better version of a peak Iniesta. You're being ridiculous if you think what brings Messi to the best in the world discussion is his goals, he's about far more than that.
It's just stupid, I hate how goal obsessed people have become. You'll soon get people saying Ronaldinho was nothing special because his goal record doesn't match Cristiano/Messi, and that's just sad.
You sure? I only watched the first half (and that was while I was watching Liverpool too so hardly the most attentive), but I seen a lot of people complaining about Lahoz letting Espanyol kick Messi about. Can't argue with you obviously, just wondering whether they were exaggerating.
I think this is the only debate I've ever seen where people are insinuating that scoring goals is almost a bad thing. It's crazy.
No one is saying that. It's where people are saying goals aren't everything. The top goalscorer isn't automatically the best player.
Really? I claimed a few times that IMO, Messi is the best player of all time. How is that belitting?
An attacking midfielder with Messi's quality who scores 9 goals a season would still be a world class player. A striker (the position when Messi played for his majority of his life) with Messi's quality but who scores 9 times a season wouldn't be a world class player. Has there ever been a world class striker who scores 9 goals a season?
It also need to be added that Messi hasn't good workrate to play exactly the Silva role. He doesn't track back, and usually covers less distance than any other player.
But anyway, Messi without goals debate is quite pointless. It is just ridiculous to claim that Messi wothout goals would be the best player in the world. Lucky for him and for football fans, he scores a lot of goals.
Maybe not belittling then, but misstating what Messi's game is about. He's always been a forward but he's not a poacher, he adds so much to his team that means without his goals he'd still be doing enough to start for every team in the world. He's not playing as a striker now so again, I don't know why you're asking about a 9 goal striker?
Silva has a better work rate than Messi but he's hardly hard working himself, Messi is good enough to be excused from defensive work anyway.
When Cristiano/Messi retire what happens - does the top scorer in Europe automatically become the best player? Players should be judged on their performances, not their goal record. Say both players didn't exist a few years ago, would Andrés Iniesta be the best in the world or would he not have scored enough?
Utter bullshit. Zidane's best total was 12 goals. Iniesta has never gone double digits.
Messi's overall game is well on par with them. And this is what the CR7 fanbois hate to consider. Without the goals, Messi is still phenomenal. Ronaldo is just good player without them.
Messi plays more advanced than them. And really, he's all round play isn't as good as them.
I agree that Messi without goals is a better player than Ronaldo without goals. And similarily, Messi with around the same amount of goals, in most cases is the better player than Ronaldo with same amout of goals. Just that Messi with 9 and Ronaldo with 50-60 isn't even a contest.
If he is scoring 20-30 goals more than the second best scorer, then most likely yes.
I agree that players should be judged on their performances. On which a massive part (for strikers, the biggest part) is reserved for goals.
That's ridiculous statement. How many times did he end up being MOTM even against top teams without scoring goals? There was lot of games this season when people were praising him as the best in the world by a mile even after watching a game he didn't even score in.
Never happened as long as he was in United's shirt. Bergkamp happened on 2000-2001 though but I think he was a bit past his best.
Were either of them near the best player in the world though?
And still he has 47 goals this season, and there is a debate if he is better (or how much better than Ronaldo). Remove 40 goals and the debate would be if he is better (or how much better) than Rooney.
Yes, Cantona IMO was one of the worlds best for a couple of years at least
He was unfortunate not to show it as much on the European and international stage for various reasons
Then, not one of the best in the world. He was one of the best (or even the best) in EPL though/
Anyway, on 1993 (when he was in run for Ballon D'Or) he was scoring a ton of goals (20 on 1992-1993, while 25 on the next season).
I tend to agree that he wouldn't be seen as the best player in the world without scoring a shitload of goals with Ronaldo around, but come on...Osasuna? He'd still be a world class player. He'd still be the best player at United, Barca, Chelsea, PSG, Bayern...everywhere except Madrid probably.
No-one in world football cuts apart defences as regularly and as easily as Messi. Worth re-posting from yesterday:
I said, Messi as a striker though. Messi on a Silva position, would still be grand.I tend to agree that he wouldn't be seen as the best player in the world without scoring a shitload of goals with Ronaldo around, but come on...Osasuna? He'd still be a world class player. He'd still be the best player at United, Barca, Chelsea, PSG, Bayern...everywhere except Madrid probably.
No-one in world football cuts apart defences as regularly and as easily as Messi. Worth re-posting from yesterday:
Osasuna was a bt of exageration, but definitely he wouldn't be the best ever, best in the world, or even in contention for Ballon D'Or.
That seems like a very odd condition to set. Messi ostensibly plays as a striker right now and is influencing games on a creative level that is miles ahead of anyone else.
Fergie reasoning about ronaldo and messi is biased, that's not new and who can blame him for that?
but his premise that ronaldo could score a hatrick for QPR and any other team it can only be sustained in the fact that ronaldo played in england while messi only played for Barcelona
but what fergie forgets is that ronaldo didnt play for QPR or Lutton, he played for the best or one of the best teams in the world, and that was Manchester United at that time
he also forgets that messi had no problem playing very good against english sides that qualified for the CL
but his premise that ronaldo could score a hatrick for QPR and any other team it can only be sustained in the fact that ronaldo played in england while messi only played for Barcelona
but what fergie forgets is that ronaldo didnt play for QPR or Lutton, he played for the best or one of the best teams in the world, and that was Manchester United at that time
he also forgets that messi had no problem playing very good against english sides that qualified for the CL
Messi without goals would be a mix of Hazard and Silva but still better because his passing is better than Silva's and his ability to beat a man on the dribble and destabilize defenses is superior to Hazard's. He's also more consistent than both. He was perceived as the MOTM in both games against City by most without scoring a single goal. Someone on the Caf during the first leg said Suarez (despite his brace) and Neymar look like pub footballers alongside Messi.
Edit: Found it:
He maybe wouldn't be perceived as the best in the world or best ever but he would be a Ballon d'Or contender for sure. If Ribery does it with 10 goals in Bundesliga and 1 goal in the CL, how doesn't Messi if he only scored about 10 instead of 50 goals but maintained the rest of his abilities?
Edit: Found it:
He maybe wouldn't be perceived as the best in the world or best ever but he would be a Ballon d'Or contender for sure. If Ribery does it with 10 goals in Bundesliga and 1 goal in the CL, how doesn't Messi if he only scored about 10 instead of 50 goals but maintained the rest of his abilities?
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Wasnt the original statement that messi without his goals will still be better than ronaldo?
Ah fair enough, I think revan was responding to that point and then probably exaggerated a bit.
You always try to use this to boost your argument, people belittle Ronaldo to praise Messi and all that crap to make it sound like you're the only sane one arguing, it's a good strategy but it doesn't help your case when you belittle Messi too(I'm guessing highlighting another's weakness is what you mean by belittling), the beyond pathetic tag could also apply to you, since you love it so much. I don't think anyone on here needs to belittle a player we once adored to praise another - Messi seems to that on his own, I think we can all agree that Ronaldo is really close to Messi in terms of quality, if Messi didn't exist it'd be Ronaldo all the way.
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