us United fans have a habbit of calling United the biggest club in the world yet we still have pretty underwhelming records against other european giants like Madrid, Barca, Milan or Bayern. I think some of the posters aren't fully aware how far behind Madrid were Barca at some point and how big thing it is to be able to handle the biggest of those european giants like Barca were able to do for most of the times in recent years. it's a huge deal regardless of the fact that CL is the biggest cup competition in the world.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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us United fans have a habbit of calling United the biggest club in the world yet we still have pretty underwhelming records against other european giants like Madrid, Barca, Milan or Bayern. I think some of the posters aren't fully aware how far behind Madrid were Barca at some point and how big thing it is to be able to handle the biggest of those european giants like Barca were able to do for most of the times in recent years. it's a huge deal regardless of the fact that CL is the biggest cup competition in the world.
So you agree with me then. Messi had the power to rest if he wanted to but he didn't. Hence he made a wrong decision. It's not about overriding Valverde's decision, it's about talking to his manager and deciding when to play and when to rest so the team benefits. I mean, we're talking about the highest level in the sport here and he's their best player by a mile... obviously those conversations happened.
Of course he has that influence, he's Lionel Messi. He's the star and captain of the team... Ronaldo has as much influence and power in Portugal's dressing room, obviously. That's not a choice they take, they get that power because they are who they are. The news that came out recently had Sampaoli asking Messi who he wanted to play with which obviously shows the amount of power he had on what happened in that team. If things didn't work out then obviously he's partly to blame too.
You're the one criticizing as you please since this whole conversation began with me replying to a Barcelona fan who criticized Ronaldo for not playing enough league games which you had no problem with while now you have a problem with giving the player responsablity for how much he rests.
I've never said half the things you claim I said. I never said he didn't play with Dybala because he didn't want to, I criticized him for not being adaptable enough to be able to make it work with Dybala. Same way I criticized Dybala for the same thing and I criticized Sampaoli for not figuring it out. I never said Messi wanted things to run through him, I said the way he plays forces the team to do that since he barely moves off the ball and he's not able to find spaces between the lines as long as the opponent's midfield are marking him well which makes him fall back to midfield and people act as if it's the midfield's fault, which is a problem that's been repeating itself over and over again and not only for Argentina.
The same things I criticized Messi about were the exact same things I criticized Ronaldo about when Queiroz was our national team manager. I did criticize Ronaldo for not resting enough too in 2013/14 when he got injured but at least then he was playing important games.
Don't take it personal, but this passage really made me laugh
That's so wicked I don't even know how to word it. So now everything I don't explicitly contradict automatically becomes my opinion and you can criticize me for it? That's just hilarous, especially from the "What the hell? I didn't even say that" guy who's mastered the art of hair splitting. I in fact completely agree that Messi should've been rested more and that Real Madrid and their treatment of Ronaldo can be a role model for them. I also don't think Real Madrid doing that poorly in the league is overly related to Ronaldo being rested since the team is better than 90% of the competition even without him in the squad. Nor do I think Messi not being rested has had that much influence on Barca going out against Roma. Not every win or failure of Barca/Real can be attributed to Messi or Ronaldo.I simply don't think that these things matter when judging who the better player is. It is a coaching issue, not the player's responsibility. And in all fairness I think it is pretty far-fetched to even discuss this matter because it has literally nothing to do with a player's quality. What a skill is that supposed to be? Off pitch decision making?
During Ronaldo's time in Madrid, Real Madrid were more successful than Barcelona. That's not up for discussion.
And there's no chance that will happen, the gap is currently 8 league titles. You've built the greatest team in history and this century you've catched up by 3 league titles. Expecting to catch up by 8 in the next 20/25 years will lead to disappointment.
The gap is currently 8 league titles... at the start of the century the gap was 11. They've barely catched up at all. The thing is people say 'Madrid had twice as many league titles and now the gap is closer', in truth the gap has barely closed down at all even if they no longer have twice as many league titles. But the Champions League is what will really matter, most people still consider Milan a bigger club historically than Juve and Milan are trailing by 15 league titles... obviously Madrid won't be happy watching Barcelona win the league but they have a big enough gap to not be too upset at it.
At one point Madrid had 9 CLs to Barcelona's 4, with 6 of Madrid's being in the 50s and 60s. The past few years means they have no chance to catch up in the next 50 years, they don't even have the Franco excuse anymore.
Don't take it personal, but this passage really made me laugh
No, here's what happened. You accused me of bias while arguing with me for a negative comment I made about Messi. In that reply you argued we shoudn't hold players responsable for how much they rest despite the guy I was arguing with in the first place having done the same thing. Meaning you were accusing me of bias while being biased which led to my ironic comment.
That's just hilarous, especially from the "What the hell? I didn't even say that" guy who's mastered the art of hair splitting. I in fact completely agree that Messi should've been rested more and that Real Madrid and their treatment of Ronaldo can be a role model for them. I also don't think Real Madrid doing that poorly in the league is overly related to Ronaldo being rested since the team is better than 90% of the competition even without him in the squad. Nor do I think Messi not being rested has had that much influence on Barca going out against Roma. Not every win or failure of Barca/Real can be attributed to Messi or Ronaldo.
I simply don't think that these things matter when judging who the better player is. It is a coaching issue, not the player's responsibility. And in all fairness I think it is pretty far-fetched to even discuss this matter because it has literally nothing to do with a player's quality. What a skill is that supposed to be? Off pitch decision making?
I didn't master the "What the hell? I didn't even say that", you just keep either not reading well or saying I said things I didn't say, just like you did there by pretending I was comparing them as footballers rather than replying to what another poster said about the games they played and they rested. And just like you did in the previous comment by saying I criticized Messi for wanting things to run through him or that he didn't want to play with Dybala. If you say I said things I didn't say, I'm going to keep pointing it out. If you don't like that then stop doing it.
And yes, off the field decisions will affect how the team plays inside of it, football does work like that. You talk as if you've never played football at above sunday league level and have no idea the influence players have on what happens. Saying those things are coaching issues rather than a player's issue has to come from someone who either has no idea how a professional team works at that level or has no idea the amount of power the players have.
No.
Facts are facts, mate. You can either accept them, or you can tilt at windmills. During Ronaldo's time at Madrid, Barca have WON MORE TROPHIES. End of story.
I don't think many consider Milan a bigger club anymore, San Siro iconicness aside....the value of the CL is inflated an all. But 2 Leagues and 4 CL's hardly outweighs 6 Titles and 2 CL's. I'm not sure the gap between them and Milan has ever been that big either, especially within Italy, Juventus have always been massive.
I don't see how you can categorically claim Real have outperformed Barca over the past 10 years or so. Barca to their credit have constantly played on all 3 fronts, the treble is always their aim.....the CL is generally RM's aim. Their League and Cup record is shocking to go with those 4 CL's. Even if they pinched one more of each, the discussion would be there as it'd be 10(but 4 CL's) to 12(2 CL's)...
I don't see how you can categorically claim Real have outperformed Barca over the past 10 years or so. Barca to their credit have constantly played on all 3 fronts, the treble is always their aim.....the CL is generally RM's aim. Their League and Cup record is shocking to go with those 4 CL's. Even if they pinched one more of each, the discussion would be there as it'd be 10(but 4 CL's) to 12(2 CL's)...
Don't take it personal, but this passage really made me laugh
I simply don't think that these things matter when judging who the better player is. It is a coaching issue, not the player's responsibility. And in all fairness I think it is pretty far-fetched to even discuss this matter because it has literally nothing to do with a player's quality. What a skill is that supposed to be? Off pitch decision making?
Yes that's apparently how it works now. I actually ignored a topic, didn't say a thing about it, and was supposedly proven wrong by Ronaldo's performance in one game. I was a bit surprised to say the least but what can you do..
Start of the century? Barca haven't had the greatest team in history for the past 18 years have they? You can't refer to the team that Pep built and then start comparing titles back from the start of the century and say "look, they haven't caught up that much".. Barca have won 7 of the last 10 league titles since they built that team so obviously they've closed the gap considerably. Now that team is all but gone though so what happens next is anyone's guess.
No, you were proved wrong by the amount of stupid comments you made throughout the year only for things to end up as they always end up, with Ronaldo shutting you up. As your feelings got so hurt you’ve now replied to a poster pretending your situation had something to do with him while both of you pretend to have no idea what I’m talking about. All because of an ironic comment showing your hypocrisy of accusing me of double standards while doing exactly the same... to which the point we’ve gotten into this argument seems a little excessive when it’s been freaking months since that happened and you’re apparently still holding a grudge over an internet comment.
You want to choose 10 years as the sample. If you choose 10 years they caught up by 5 league titles, if you choose 8 they caught up by 3... if you choose 12 they caught up by 3... and there’s a big 8 league title gap that won’t even matter at all while the champions league gap is as big as it is
The truth is they’ve barely caught up at all and that’s just in terms of league titles, the past 5 years Real Madrid with Cristiano Ronaldo at the head of it have made sure the dreams every Barcelona fan had of seeing their club’s trophy cabinet be close to Real Madrid’s during their lifetime is pretty much over and that pisses a whole lot of people off to a point where the hatred has become so intense those people will start to watch the Italian league next season despite not watching one game in years... as you can see by Ishdalar and Zehner’s sudden interest on Juventus’ commercial deals, with the latter making a 300 line bullshit study on Ronaldo’s commercial impact on Juventus a few days after he signs despite a Juve fan who knew what he was talking about repeatedly telling him how nonsensical it all was. So yes, sorry for offending you by making an ironic comment when that guy of all people accuses me of having double standards.
Yes, because that's how good he is, and how bad the rest of the team was.
That same team, Leganes, eliminated Villarreal playing the second leg at El Madrigal, and then went and eliminated Real Madrid playing the second leg Bernabeu too. Put some respect when you talk about teams able to do that, instead of just downplaying them because it fits your agenda.
It just... I can't take anything you say about this rivalry serious, in one hand you bash Leo for trying to secure a title, on the other you defend a player for choosing his minutes, but that same guy plays 180' vs APOEL, or plays the whole 90 minutes in a blowout vs Granada. Anyone can resort to petty arguments like stat padding, but everytime you'll be here to sell the tale of how Leo puts his stats above the team interests, I'll be here too to call you out for that.
I said him playing against Leganes 3 days before a CL quarter final was great for his numbers and bad for the team, not that his reason for doing that was him making his numbers look better. I’m sure he played just because he wants to play as much as possible, doesn’t make what I said any less true.
Saying Barcelona who have world class players in every position need Messi to beat the likes of Leganes at home is incredible. Top 3 players in the world in their position across the team sheet and apparently the team is bad. Do you support Barcelona or Messi?
Barcelona look atrocious without Messi, this is a fact. They look completely clueless.
Jesus this nonsense again if it wasn't for him Barcelona and Argentina teammates are pub players who barely can play football and he never is responsible for anything?
We will be paying attention to Messi fanatics when Ronaldo doesn't perform with Juve and Portugal and compare that with poor Leo who barely has to guide Barcelona and Argentina to glory on a rainy and foggy night.
Do they?
The team rarely played scintillating football this season but they look good regardless, didn’t need Messi to dominate us in the CL earlier in the season or to outplay Juventus away from home... When Messi isn’t playing usually it’s not the first team playing either but even without him they have world class players all over the pitch. Saying they can’t beat Leganes without him is just bullshit.
Next season Ronaldo playing with Juve we will still somehow get the same comments about how bad Messi’s team is...
Wait when Ronaldo doesn't perform and Messi scores 3 vs Eibar to listen him being elevated to the same level as Diego and Pelé.
There are 2 certain things in life, Barcelona being more than a Galaxy and Messi fanatics reaching Trumpian levels of dishonesty.
No, you were proved wrong by the amount of stupid comments you made throughout the year only for things to end up as they always end up, with Ronaldo shutting you up. As your feelings got so hurt you’ve now replied to a poster pretending your situation had something to do with him while both of you pretend to have no idea what I’m talking about. All because of an ironic comment showing your hypocrisy of accusing me of double standards while doing exactly the same... to which the point we’ve gotten into this argument seems a little excessive when it’s been freaking months since that happened and you’re apparently still holding a grudge over an internet comment.
You want to choose 10 years as the sample. If you choose 10 years they caught up by 5 league titles, if you choose 8 they caught up by 3... if you choose 12 they caught up by 3... and there’s a big 8 league title gap that won’t even matter at all while the champions league gap is as big as it is
The truth is they’ve barely caught up at all and that’s just in terms of league titles, the past 5 years Real Madrid with Cristiano Ronaldo at the head of it have made sure the dreams every Barcelona fan had of seeing their club’s trophy cabinet be close to Real Madrid’s during their lifetime is pretty much over and that pisses a whole lot of people off to a point where the hatred has become so intense those people will start to watch the Italian league next season despite not watching one game in years... as you can see by Ishdalar and Zehner’s sudden interest on Juventus’ commercial deals, with the latter making a 300 line bullshit study on Ronaldo’s commercial impact on Juventus a few days after he signs despite a Juve fan who knew what he was talking about repeatedly telling him how nonsensical it all was. So yes, sorry for offending you by making an ironic comment when that guy of all people accuses me of having double standards.
The irony of you bringing up feelings with a post like that.
Anyway.. the comment I was referring to happened after Portugal's game vs Spain in the WC, so no it's not been freaking months and no I'm not holding a grudge, I actually thought it was funny and Zehner's post reminded me of it. If you're offended then I'm sorry I made a joke on your behalf.
As for 10 years or 18 years, my point was that you started your whole premise by first saying "during Ronaldo's time in Madrid", and then "you (Barca) built the greatest team in history". Both of which happened at the same time and that time was obviously not at the turn of the century, so can't you see why I would think it was strange for you to compare titles since 2000?
You're basically saying that Barca haven't caught up much since 2009 because since 2000 they've only won 3 more titles... It doesn't make much sense does it.
What other posters do or have done to you is of extremely little interest to me, and I'm not a Barca fan either FWIW.
And btw, having a different opinion than you doesn't make it stupid, and AFAIK Ronaldo hasn't proven me wrong about anything and if he has I would love to know what that would be. I've bashed the ways that Ronaldo has been argued for in here a hell of a lot more than I've ever bashed him, but since you seem to take everything that's written about him very personally I can see why you're so upset with me and all the other people who think Messi is a much better player.
Seeing as you take it as personally as I do I can see why you’re so upset the much better player keeps getting outperformed over and over again. Or are you not upset that Ronaldo will finish ahead of Messi in the Ballon D’Or for the 7th time in the past 12 years? That’s embarassing for the much better player.
Right, I forgot. You don’t care at all, that’s why you spend so much time here arguing the things you do... and now the Ballon D’Or will be a stupid award again with the journalists wanting Ronaldo to win so they can sell more papers, right? Your opinions don’t upset me, they’re just ridiculous and show a complete inability to understand the sport, believing Messi is a much better player is exactly what that is. Just like believing Ronaldo is a much better player. You’re mistaking my honesty for something else, don’t take it personally. Don’t want you to still be offended at being called biased two or three months from now and having to quote a comment with absolutely nothing to do with it so you can vent about it.
Wow.. you wrote all that and managed to not adress one single thing I said and instead chose to go for all out insults, ludacris remarks and laughable assumptions. That's almost impressive.. Any other words you want to put in my mouth so that you can continue trying to hide from the things I've actually said?
It seems as if you really really want me to be upset about Ronaldo winning things and scoring goals, but that's obviously not the case. I wouldn't wish for him to score hattricks in CL finals and praise him when no one's asked my opinion of him otherwise, but then again you're so extremely cynical by now that you even tried to twist that into a negative, so I guess it doesn't matter to you.
You're just embarrassing yourself at this point man. I used to say that you were the only regular Ronaldo fan in here that could actually hold an adult conversation.. funny how things change.
Edit: FWIW, unlike yours my apology was actually sincere.
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If Messi played in the CL Finals the way Ronaldo did in 2014, 2016 and 2018 absolutely no way in hell do Barca win those matches. Ronaldo has the luxury of having the greatest midfield in the world along with some of the highest scoring defenders in CL history in Marcelo and Ramos to bail him out. Now, this isn’t to say Ronaldo wasn’t great in the earlier stages of CL, far from it, but he’s had some awful awful CL performances and still got a trophy for it. Not that he didn’t deserve one for his overal campaign, but like when Messi benefited from having Xavi and iniesta Ronaldo absolutely benefitted from having the best team in the world behind him for when he disappeared.
Messi doesn’t have that luxury, a Ronaldo-less Madrid are much better than Barcelona without Messi
And bollocks to Barcelona outplaying Juve without Messi, with Messi they beat them 3-0, without him they only had a draw.
Messi doesn’t have that luxury, a Ronaldo-less Madrid are much better than Barcelona without Messi
And bollocks to Barcelona outplaying Juve without Messi, with Messi they beat them 3-0, without him they only had a draw.
I did address everything you said, I just called it stupid because it was stupid and rather than doing this whole sarcastic pretending you love, I’d rather just be honest. I’m cynical about what you say for a very good reason, you love passing judgement on ‘Ronaldo fans’ and acting all superior when you’re just as bad on the other side of the spectrum. Maybe it makes you feel better about yourself and it’s why you take such offense when I disagree with you but it’s embarrassing. I call you out on your hypocrisy and you get so offended more than one month later you leave a bizarre comment mentioning it by replying to a completely unrelated conversation, but then I’m the one that can’t have an adult conversation. Not only are you not able to have an adult conversation, you’re incapable of having an honest one.
So no, I’m not apologizing as I have nothing to apologize for. I just want you to be honest for once.
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What does that have to do with the fact Barcelona outplayed Juventus away from home without Messi in the team?
Messi didn’t play in the finals like Ronaldo did in 2014, 2016 and 2018 because he doesn’t get to those finals. If he actually showed up before the finals then he’d be more likely to actually play in them, nice of you to ignore Ronaldo was injured for two of those finals too.
I want you to give the excuse of the teams they are playing with every single day for the next year while Ronaldo plays at Juventus and Messi at Barcelona like you’ve done for the past 2 years but I’m guessing you’ll somehow realize that Juventus without Ronaldo are better than Barca without Messi just like during the World Cup you deluded yourself into believing Portugal without Ronaldo are better than Argentina without Messi.
So tell me now before the season starts rather than using it as an excuse next season, are Barcelona better than Juventus?
You try to argue that Barca has not closed the gap of La liga titles since Ronaldo came to Real by including the years 2000-2008 to prove your point, and when I say that that doesn't make any sense - you respond by saying that everything I say is stupid. Maybe you should try that honest and adult approach yourself?
It's great that you also know how I feel even though I say otherwise. I say that I was joking and apologize for it - you say that I'm offended. Really great stuff.
As for my alleged hypocrisy, you say that I never said anything about Ronaldo's performances for Portugal and that he then proved me wrong by being great in one game against Spain in the WC (which makes so much sense), and then that I've said things in the past that you for some reason refuse to quote.
I couldn't be offended by that even if I wanted to because I honestly can't understand your reasoning.
You know that I used to like to debate with you here and I even praised you for being different to the smiley brigade like Vancouver-whathisname for example for having coherent arguments. Why would I say that if I was offended by you disagreeing with me, because we clearly did disagree back then as well right?
And no I'm not the same as the Ronaldo fans I've been critical of, mostly because I'm not 8 years old, I don't feel any schaudenfruede against Ronaldo and I don't cry myself to sleep depending on how things go for two players who doesn't play for United and doesn't even know that I exist. There are people like this on the Messi side as well, and I have admitted that I should be critical of them also, but I guess we're ignoring all the things I've said that doesn't portray me as the lord of all things anti-Ronaldo.
If you want to twist that into your usual bs then go ahead, I really don't care what you think if all you do is imply that I'm a liar and then try to set some new kind of world record in making piss poor assumtions.
Juventus are better than Barca
And Barca best Juventus with Messi, without him they only managed a draw and weren’t able to score. Not sure where this “outplaying Juventus without Messi” narrative came from
That would be an honest and adult approach if it wasn’t another lie
We were not talking about the Ronaldo years only at all, we were talking about Barcelona catching up with Madrid in league titles. To which you argued we should start counting since Guardiola came in... Guardiola started at Barca in 2008, Ronaldo in 2009. Hence, you chose the sample which suited you the most to which I replied with other different samples to show you they had barely caught up at all, which is the truth. Since the start of the century they caught up by 3 league titles, since 2007 by 3 league titles, since 2008 by 5 league titles, etc.
Overall they have barely caught up taking into account what the difference is.
Because it was obvious it wasn’t a joke at all, those are usually funny and not done with sarcastic contempt and bitterness.
It was also completely unrelated to the conversation despite you claiming it had reminded you of it, making it all the more bizarre.
Do you want me to repeat what I told you over a month ago why that’s not what happened?
Should we make this a monthly tradition too?
My opinions didn’t change at all so why you thought I was a good poster then and don’t think I’m a good poster now might have something to to with how I replied to you and if I’m replying the why I’m relying to you is because you’re exactly the same as the ‘smilie brigade’ you love to feel superior to.
If you’re as unbiased as you claim and are only here to fight against illogical comments then why do you have such a big problem with that Vancouver guy while not caring at all with the all
of the guys who are exactly the same but in a different camp? Can you explain that to me?
If you don’t want me to call you a liar then stop lying. If you want to discuss football then please for the love of God actually discuss football. Please.
I think it might have had something to do with Barcelona going to the Juventus Stadium without Messi in the starting eleven and still being the better team. I think that’s where it came, from reality.
Also, for fecks sake... you can’t actually believe Juventus have a better team than Barcelona. What the feck. First you delude yourself into thinking Portugal have a better squad than Argentina and now this. If Ronaldo played for Accrington Stanley they’d be better too then?
Barcelona are just better on every single position on the pitch
How the hell can you delude yourself to that point? Do you even know who is currently playing for your own team?
I thought the best thing about Ronaldo moving to Juventus was that FINALLY the teammate excuse would end. I underestimated how deluded this thread could get. I know you’re probably not going to reply but please explain to me how the hell is it possible for you to think Juventus have a better team than Barcelona. Do you even support Barcelona or it’s just Messi?
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I think it might have had something to do with Barcelona going to the Juventus Stadium without Messi in the starting eleven and still being the better team. I think that’s where it came, from reality.
Also, for fecks sake... you can’t actually believe Juventus have a better team than Barcelona. What the feck. First you delude yourself into thinking Portugal have a better squad than Argentina and now this. If Ronaldo played for Accrington Stanley they’d be better too then?
Barcelona are just better on every single position on the pitch
How the hell can you delude yourself to that point? Do you even know who is currently playing for your own team?
I thought the best thing about Ronaldo moving to Juventus was that FINALLY the teammate excuse would end. I underestimated how deluded this thread could get. I know you’re probably not going to reply but please explain to me how the hell is it possible for you to think Juventus have a better team than Barcelona. Do you even support Barcelona or it’s just Messi?
Juventus have fared SIGNIFICANTLY better than Barca in CL in recent years. 2 Finals appearances in the past 4 years along with eliminating Barca themselves.
I support Barcelona, even if I do love Messi. However if Messi went to another team I'd wish him the best but I'd always root for Barcelona to beat whichever team he was on.
How does that make them a better team?
Out of the team that got to the CL final in 2015 there are like 2 or 3 players remaining... Not a single player that played the 2015 final for Juve is a starter for them now.
So how do the results of 3 years ago have anything to do with their current team?
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Juve is not better than Barca and Barca is not better than Juve.
The best team in the world is Real Madrid and after that there are Bayern, Juve and Barca in no particular world order as results in CL show.
In 2015 Juventus made the CL final, in 2016 they were eliminated by Bayern. Bayen outplayed them in their stadium and Juve outplayed them in Germany but they conceded 2 late goals. In 2017 they destroyed Barca with MSN 3-0 and didn't concede in Nou Camp, in 2018 they were eliminated by Madrid but they outplayed them in the return leg and for some parts in the first leg.
Barca won the CL in 2015 but they were eliminated in the quarters for 3 times in a row.
A match in the group stage which ended 0-0 proves absolutely nothing, and Barca didn't outplay Juve. They both had their chances, Barca hit a post with Paulinho if I remember correctly and Ter Stegen had to make a save on Dybala.
The point is that Ronaldo is joining a worse team, but not much worse, it's still one of the best teams in the world with Barca and Bayern.
The best team in the world is Real Madrid and after that there are Bayern, Juve and Barca in no particular world order as results in CL show.
In 2015 Juventus made the CL final, in 2016 they were eliminated by Bayern. Bayen outplayed them in their stadium and Juve outplayed them in Germany but they conceded 2 late goals. In 2017 they destroyed Barca with MSN 3-0 and didn't concede in Nou Camp, in 2018 they were eliminated by Madrid but they outplayed them in the return leg and for some parts in the first leg.
Barca won the CL in 2015 but they were eliminated in the quarters for 3 times in a row.
A match in the group stage which ended 0-0 proves absolutely nothing, and Barca didn't outplay Juve. They both had their chances, Barca hit a post with Paulinho if I remember correctly and Ter Stegen had to make a save on Dybala.
The point is that Ronaldo is joining a worse team, but not much worse, it's still one of the best teams in the world with Barca and Bayern.
That would be an honest and adult approach if it wasn’t another lie
We were not talking about the Ronaldo years only at all, we were talking about Barcelona catching up with Madrid in league titles. To which you argued we should start counting since Guardiola came in... Guardiola started at Barca in 2008, Ronaldo in 2009. Hence, you chose the sample which suited you the most to which I replied with other different samples to show you they had barely caught up at all, which is the truth. Since the start of the century they caught up by 3 league titles, since 2007 by 3 league titles, since 2008 by 5 league titles, etc.
Overall they have barely caught up taking into account what the difference is.
Ffs.. this is the Messi vs Ronaldo thread, you yourself started your post with saying "since Ronaldo came to Real" and referring to Barca's greatest team of all time. Why would the time period we look at start 8 years before those things happened?
And if you go back and read your own post you would see that my summary of it isn't a lie, but you're so hyped up on calling me a liar now that you seem to not think before you type.
Maybe we have a different sense of humor then. Just please don't tell me what I meant or how I feel, I get that you're trying to convince yourself that you're right about me but I promise that the world won't end if you happen to believe what I say is true about myself.
Yes to the first, no to the second.
I have already admitted (this would be the 3rd time) that I haven't called out the poor arguments for Messi in here but that I should. I've also never said I was unbiased and everyone who has read my posts in here should probably know that by now. I'm absolutely shocked that you would assume that I've said something that I never did though. Shocked I tell ya!
I actually wanted to discuss whether Barca or Real have had a better past decade but since you said it wasn't up for discussion I can't.
Stop calling me a liar if you want me to discuss anything with you. I don't give a shit what you think about me but calling me a liar when I'm being honest is deplorable even by the standards of this thread.
I actually wanted to discuss whether Barca or Real have had a better past decade but since you said it wasn't up for discussion I can't.
Go for it then.
Again, what the hell does the 2015 team have to do with this one when no players remain? The problem is simple, you now have people talking about Juventus that simply do not watch Juventus play throughout the year. That’s what this thread will become. Same exact thing happened with Portugal.
Ter Stegen > Szczesny
Semedo/Sergi Roberto> De Sciglio
Pique + Umtiti > Benatia + Chiellini
Alba > Alex Sandro
Busquets + Rakitic + Coutinho > Can + Matuidi + Pjanic
Dembele + Messi + Suarez > Costa + Dybala + Higuain
Barcelona are a better team than Juventus because they are clearly stronger in every area of the pitch. Not because of checking their CL results on Wikipedia. No matter the mental gymnastic you make, it’s undeniably harder to win the CL in a team that will be starting Szczesny, Benatia, De Sciglio, Emre Can, Matuidi, etc. than it would be in the current Barcelona team. Arguing Juventus’ squad is as strong as Barcelona’s shows a complete lack of knowledge about these teams’ players.
In 2015 they were a completely different team from top to bottom.
In 2016 they got knocked out in the round of 16 by Bayern after finishing second in their group.
In 2017 they made it to the final but they had an easy route, beat Barcelona (which hasn’t really been that great of an accomplishment in recent years) but the other 2 opponents were Monaco and Porto who were playing with 10 men by the 20th minute of the first leg. They were also in trouble in the group stages and if it wasn’t for an incredible Buffon performance in Lyon they might have been knocked out.
In 2018 they got to the quarters, they did outplay Madrid but they were outplayed in the Tottenham tie before that. They once again were in trouble in the group stages and we could have knocked them out, they finished second in their group again.
They’re very good but they are not a top 4 team in the world ahead of the likes of PSG, Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern. Atleti and City are better too. Napoli had one hand on the title last season and it wasn’t by chance, this Juve team is not as good as it’s been in recent years. Even with Ronaldo.
You people are treating it as anything but winning the treble with Ronaldo scoring 40 goals for the season will be a failure so yes, it’s highly likely it’s going to be a failure if you’re overrating them to that point. In truth, winning the league and going out in the quarters to one of the 6 teams mentioned above would be about par for the season considering the players they have.
So you just decided arbitrarily that all Barca players are better than Juventus players. That makes me wonder why Barca players choke in the CL even against inferior teams and Juventus players don't.
Saying that PSG and City are better teams than Juve is laughable, they've done nothing in the CL, especially PSG that was the only team that looked completely clueless against Madrid and wins their one horse league. City did great in the PL but under Pep was knocked out by Monaco and Liverpool. Atletico didn't even make it past the group stage
and Napoli was close to win the league not because Juventus was worse but because they've never had so many points in their history.I've never said Juventus is as good as Madrid, I said Madrid is the best team in the world and would be the favourite against all teams. After that there are Bayern and Juve who have decent results in Europe and then PSG and City who are great in the league but suck in the CL.
Not winning the league with Juve would be a failure, nothing else. CL is also about luck, so going out against Madrid or Barca or Bayern wouldn't be a failure.
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Not arbitrarily, I just watch them play and yes, pretty much all of them are better.
I think most people would easily agree with that too.
Saying that PSG and City are better teams than Juve is laughable, they've done nothing in the CL, especially PSG that was the only team that looked completely clueless against Madrid and wins their one horse league. City did great in the PL but under Pep was knocked out by Monaco and Liverpool. Atletico didn't even make it past the group stage
Atleti at the start of last season were clearly underperforming and just like it happened to them to get knocked out in the group stages it could have easily happened to Juve too.
Judging how good a team is by their results in the Champions League in the past 5 years is completely nonsensical, especially when they’re constantly changing in that period. City and PSG are obviously much better now than they were 2 years ago.
You can say Juve have more experience and they’re more likely to do well in the latter stages but they do not have a better squad than City or PSG and they most definitely have a worse squad than Barcelona. The fact I’m having to argue this against Barcelona fans is pretty ridiculous.
I'm just gonna copypaste my answer in another forum, because you guys only repeat the same nonsense like parrots, so excuse me for being lazy.
To win La Liga you actually have to beat Real Madrid and Atletico, for starters. Those two and Barça have taken 7 of the last 10 spots in UCL Finals, and then you have other European 2nd tier powerhouses like Sevilla.
The top level of your biggest tournament is being set by Spanish teams, in the last 5 seasons Real, Atletico and Barcelona have been the ones knocking themselves, only exception in the past 4 years was Juve in SF vs Real and QF vs Barcelona, then Barcelona and Atletico with monumental screw ups this season.
UCL top teams have basically been La Liga with Juventus in, and ocasional upsets. So excuse me for thinking our league titles can have as much merit as a UCL
Does Portugal’s Euro win have as much merit as the World Cup then given the European domination at the World Cup?
Disregarding the value of the different competitions in the sport to rate them on merit makes no sense at all. Federer would rather win Wimbledon by beating Cilic
and Anderson than win Queens by beating Nadal and Djokovic. That’s how sports work.
I dont think performances in the last knockout competitions prove Juve is a better team. Barcelona is vastly superior imo.
Have you considered the idea that you may be wrong at least?.
Because we've been here before
Once Messi was nullified we went out, as usual.
Suarez goes and scores 1 goal in 10 UCL games and still has credit on your eyes to this day, if it was Messi the one scoring a single goal in more than a year of UCL football you'd be here digging his grave.
Alba is the best LB on the world... look at the WC and tell me that guy is even top 3 at Euro level, the best LB in the world plays for Real Madrid, but how would you say that.
Busquets might be the best DM in the world, but as usually happens in the situations, he gets injured, plays injured and sucks. You're bound to have a leg like the one vs Roma when Busquets plays at 50, would be the same or worse if Messi was injured, that's why everyone says this team is all Messi.
You've had 4 months to reconsider the quality of those guys, a WC in between were Rakitic shined, Suarez was mediocre and Alba/Pique sucked. Yet nothing seems to have changed.
I'm officially switching to the CR7 camp now, Messi's peak was extremely high but he just looks a shadow of himself now physically and Ronaldo has proved he has the better mentality than him in recent years. CR7 looks like he will last much longer, i'm sure he will rack up some more trophies in a 3rd major European league. Then you have Ronaldo's overall achievements esp in CL he has an substantial answer for most questions while Messi's camp has to resort to intangibles like talent.
It did change, what the feck. I stand by every single thing I said at the time and if anything this season just proved me right. I did argue Barcelona were going to win the league when everyone was arguing otherwise because I know how good that squad is. Alba was by far the best fullback in the world at the first half of the season which was when that comment was made and Barcelona’s defense was absolutely incredible in that period, they were on course to beat a load of defensive records. Alba still had the best season of his career, Umtiti and Pique got worse as the season went on. Rakitic was a top 5 midfielder in the world this season, probably the most underrated player in the world.
Alba and Pique sucked at the World Cup, Marcelo and Ramos sucked too and you won’t change your mind about them so what’s your point?
Rakitic was great, Coutinho was incredible and you as a supposed Barcelona have absolutely no shame in shitting on every single one of your players not called Messi. Saying this Barcelona team is all Messi is beyond embarassing, especially for a supposed Barcelona fan. World class players in pretty much every position for fecks sake. I understand the club was willing to completely bend over to his wishes, doesn’t mean the fans should do it too.
Saying Suarez was mediocre is incredible, easily one of the top strikers in the world still. Missed too many chances in the first game but there’s no striker that works more for the team, completely tore us apart in the round of 16 match too. The fact there are people arguing Juventus have a better team than Barcelona and during the WC you guys argued Portugal had a better team than Argentina says it all at how this has gone from delusion to complete insanity.
An no, it’s not a matter of opinion. Saying Heskey is better than Pele isn’t subjective. It’s fecking stupid.
If you want to argue that Juventus have a better team than Barcelona despite being inferior in every area of the pitch then do it, doesn’t mean I don’t get to call that what it is
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