Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Ishdalar]

Does Portugal’s Euro win have as much merit as the World Cup then given the European domination at the World Cup?

Disregarding the value of the different competitions in the sport to rate them on merit makes no sense at all. Federer would rather win Wimbledon by beating Cilic
and Anderson than win Queens by beating Nadal and Djokovic. That’s how sports work.

First, you compare a one tournament sample in both regards (Portugal winning ONE Euro, Europe dominating ONE World Cup) and I'm using examples of 4 years.
Second, both tournaments are set 2 years apart (not 4 seasons in a row).
Third, Portugal weren't knocked out by Croatia or France, they didn't even get knocked by a team that knocked another EC participant (which makes your rhetoric totally different to my example, but that's what you want anyway).
Fourth, they eliminated both WC finalists in overtimes, league games don't have overtimes, you can upset a single Elimination tournaments by "peaking" in the right moments, but a 4/5 year domination is based in more than that.

And the cherry on top, it's been a known fact for decades that European teams perform better in World Cups held in European soil.

So, there's two explanations there, for the past 90 years every great generation of European players has, somehow, coincidentally peaked on WC on European soil, or the "home" factor it's really important, and that's something that you can't translate to UCL football, as far as I know, each team gets a game in his stadium, you don't have a Real Madrid - Juventus leg decided by games on the vanuatu, or with both legs played in the Bernabeu. Comparing NT with Club level is just another of your "spin the wheel" attempts.

Then you go on and talk about a different sport, might use the NBA too like people were doing yesterday, or waterpolo, who cares, everything goes.

 

[Ishdalar]

It did change, what the feck. Alba was by far the best fullback in the world at the first half of the season which was when that comment was made and Barcelona’s defense was absolutely incredible in that period, they were on course to beat a load of defensive records. Alba still had the best season of his career, Umtiti and Pique got worse as the season went on.

Alba and Pique sucked at the World Cup, Marcelo and Ramos sucked too and you won’t change your mind about them so what’s your point?

Rakitic was great, Coutinho was incredible and you as a supposed Barcelona have absolutely no shame in shitting on every single one of your players not called Messi. Saying this Barcelona team is all Messi is beyond embarassing, especially for a supposed Barcelona fan. World class players in pretty much every position for fecks sake. I understand the club was willing to completely bend over to his wishes, doesn’t mean the fans should do it too.

Saying Suarez was mediocre is incredible, easily one of the top strikers in the world still. Missed too many chances in the first game but there’s no striker that works more for the team, completely tore us apart in the round of 16 match too. The fact there are people arguing Juventus have a better team than Barcelona and during the WC you guys argued Portugal had a better team than Argentina says it all at how this has gone from delusion to complete insanity.

An no, it’s not a matter of opinion. Saying Heskey is better than Pele isn’t subjective. It’s fecking stupid.

Oh, so we could field Coutinho in the UCL games this season?. Might've ringed Valverde's number and told him, looks he forgot about him.

Alba is great when he has Messi feeding him, same way Pedro looked like a stunner when he played with Villa, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. But Alba is incapable of generating anything on his own, Marcelo it's better than him, any day of the week. If I'm to choose between them I choose Marcelo, even if he also sucked at the World Cup, look at what he did just the last 4 months of UCL. Also, proper of you to put Suarez as the key player vs you, and not Cavani, who worked even harder and scored 2.

We're talking about the past season, what happens next one, we'll see.

Let's give a try to your twisted rethoric and go with "how well did some of Messi's teammates in this WC".

Ter Stegen - Not a single minute with Germany
Vermaelen - Rotation player for Belgium
Semedo - Not even called by Portugal
Sergi Roberto - Like Semedo, probably had a blast in Ibiza
Digne - Played some Fortnite with Semedo and Rob
Pique - Terrible
Alba - Liability
Busquets - Intranscendental
Andre Gomes - Hello?
Denis Suarez - When he, Gomes, Digne, Rob and Semedo coincided online, they had a full team to play League of Legends.
Iniesta - So good he got benched in the most important game
Paulinho - One of the worst players for Brazil
Dembele - Played two minutes in the knockout stage
Suarez - Mediocre, good at best?

"But what about the ones that were great in the WC"

Umtiti - Yeah, and Madrid have Varane so what?, Atleti have Gimenez and Godin, every top defense in Europe has a duo that's comparable, or better than Pique-Umtiti
Rakitic - Ok, he's great, especially when he plays alongside someone like Modric, who sadly plays for Real Madrid
Coutinho - Can't help win a UCL if you can't play the competition

You're fuming after reading this post?. Nice, that's how it feels reading yours when you downplay Ronaldo teammates while praising Messi's.

 

[Peyroteo]

First, you compare a one tournament sample in both regards (Portugal winning ONE Euro, Europe dominating ONE World Cup) and I'm using examples of 4 years.
Second, both tournaments are set 2 years apart (not 4 seasons in a row).
Third, Portugal weren't knocked out by Croatia or France, they didn't even get knocked by a team that knocked another EC participant (which makes your rhetoric totally different to my example, but that's what you want anyway).
Fourth, they eliminated both WC finalists in overtimes, league games don't have overtimes, you can upset a single Elimination tournaments by "peaking" in the right moments, but a 4/5 year domination is based in more than that.

And the cherry on top, it's been a known fact for decades that European teams perform better in World Cups held in European soil.

So, there's two explanations there, for the past 90 years every great generation of European players has, somehow, coincidentally peaked on WC on European soil, or the "home" factor it's really important, and that's something that you can't translate to UCL football, as far as I know, each team gets a game in his stadium, you don't have a Real Madrid - Juventus leg decided by games on the vanuatu, or with both legs played in the Bernabeu. Comparing NT with Club level is just another of your "spin the wheel" attempts.

Then you go on and talk about a different sport, might use the NBA too like people were doing yesterday, or waterpolo, who cares, everything goes.

No, logic goes. Stupidity does not. The tennis example was perfectly in context if you were actually able to read or form a coherent thought or argument. Sorry for misjudging you.

Rating a La Liga title as much a Champions League title because teams that did better in the Champions League play in La Liga is beyond stupid. To counter this complete lack of logic I gave two relevant examples which you chose to ignore because they weren’t the exact same scenario which you presented. Sorry for assuming you were an adult capable of understanding context and basic logic.

 

[Ishdalar]

No, logic goes. Stupidity does not. The tennis example was perfectly in context if you were actually able to read or form a coherent thought or argument. Sorry for misjudging you.

Rating a La Liga title as much a Champions League title because teams that did better in the Champions League play in La Liga is beyond stupid. To counter this complete lack of logic I gave two relevant examples which you chose to ignore because they weren’t the exact same scenario which you presented. Sorry for assuming you were an adult capable of understanding context and basic logic.

I'm not trying to compare them on a level ground, I can understand being happier for an UCL title, or in a scale of 1 to 10 giving a 10 for winning the UCL and a 9'5 or 9 for winning La Liga (Spanish league, not the same as the French Farmer's league).

But I'm not going to ignore people saying that because one won the UCL and the other a domestic double, one had a 10 season and the other a 6 season, that's bs.

 

[Peyroteo]

Oh, so we could field Coutinho in the UCL games this season?. Might've ringed Valverde's number and told him, looks he forgot about him.

No... was I talking about the CL games only? I thought we were comparing their teams?

Alba is great when he has Messi feeding him, same way Pedro looked like a stunner when he played with Villa, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. But Alba is incapable of generating anything on his own, Marcelo it's better than him, any day of the week. If I'm to choose between them I choose Marcelo, even if he also sucked at the World Cup, look at what he did just the last 4 months of UCL. Also, proper of you to put Suarez as the key player vs you, and not Cavani, who worked even harder and scored 2.

I did not put Suarez as the key player. Where the hell did I say that?

And Marcelo is a better player than Alba, did I ever say the opposite? What I said was very simple. During the first half of the season Jordi Alba was easily the best fullback in the world, that’s what I said.

We're talking about the past season, what happens next one, we'll see.

Let's give a try to your twisted rethoric and go with "how well did some of Messi's teammates in this WC".

Ter Stegen - Not a single minute with Germany
Vermaelen - Rotation player for Belgium
Semedo - Not even called by Portugal
Sergi Roberto - Like Semedo, probably had a blast in Ibiza
Digne - Played some Fortnite with Semedo and Rob
Pique - Terrible
Alba - Liability
Busquets - Intranscendental
Andre Gomes - Hello?
Denis Suarez - When he, Gomes, Digne, Rob and Semedo coincided online, they had a full team to play League of Legends.
Iniesta - So good he got benched in the most important game
Paulinho - One of the worst players for Brazil
Dembele - Played two minutes in the knockout stage
Suarez - Mediocre, good at best?

"But what about the ones that were great in the WC"

Umtiti - Yeah, and Madrid have Varane so what?, Atleti have Gimenez and Godin, every top defense in Europe has a duo that's comparable, or better than Pique-Umtiti
Rakitic - Ok, he's great, especially when he plays alongside someone like Modric, who sadly plays for Real Madrid
Coutinho - Can't help win a UCL if you can't play the competition

You're fuming after reading this post?. Nice, that's how it feels reading yours when you downplay Ronaldo teammates while praising Messi's.

Difference being that only one of those has anything to do with what actually happens inside a football pitch. I do not pretend Carvajal, Ramos, Kroos, Casemiro and Marcelo are bad players because they had bad World Cups and that they need Ronaldo to succeed, that’s beyond stupid.

I criticized Carvajal’s and Kroos’ seasons because they’ve been way below standard this past season despite not getting any scrutiny for it because there’s always Ronaldo to shift the blame to.

If you do a similar list to that judging the performances of Real Madrid players at the WC it would look even worse than that one, same with Bayern players too. Doesn’t mean they aren’t top teams.

The truth is playing next to Messi is as close to a guarantee as it gets that a player won’t get the plaudits they deserve. Ter Stegen, Alba, Umtiti, Busquets and Rakitic got no plaudits for the incredible seasons they’ve had.

When Barcelona succeed they won’t get any of the credit and when they fail they’re going to get all of the blame. Because a large part of the Barcelona fanbase and media only care about one player.

 

[Peyroteo]

I'm not trying to compare them on a level ground, I can understand being happier for an UCL title, or in a scale of 1 to 10 giving a 10 for winning the UCL and a 9'5 or 9 for winning La Liga (Spanish league, not the same as the French Farmer's league).

But I'm not going to ignore people saying that because one won the UCL and the other a domestic double, one had a 10 season and the other a 6 season, that's bs.

Winning the CL is a clearly bigger achievement than winning the league to a point where most fans would easily take 1 CL over 2 league titles.

Agree with the last paragraph though, I think everyone does.

 

[RoadTrip]

But the Champions League is what will really matter, most people still consider Milan a bigger club historically than Juve and Milan are trailing by 15 league titles... obviously Madrid won't be happy watching Barcelona win the league but they have a big enough gap to not be too upset at it.

Let me first clarify that I’m in neither the Ronaldo nor Messi camp. They are both unbelievable talents and arguing between them is just an opinion.

But this comment is silly. Are Liverpool a bigger club than us? Do you really think people see Liverpool as the bigger club than us?

And by the way I don’t think people see Milan as bigger than Juve.

 

[Peyroteo]

Let me first clarify that I’m in neither the Ronaldo nor Messi camp. They are both unbelievable talents and arguing between them is just an opinion.

But this comment is silly. Are Liverpool a bigger club than us? Do you really think people see Liverpool as the bigger club than us?

And by the way I don’t think people see Milan as bigger than Juve.

I don’t think so but that’s mostly due to lack of recent success. 18 league titles and 5 Champions Leagues is definitely more impressive than 20 league titles and 3 Champions Leagues and I bet plenty of Juve fans would rather have 18 league titles and 7 CLs than 33 league titles and 2 CLs.

 

[RoadTrip]

I don’t think so but that’s mostly due to lack of recent success. 18 league titles and 5 Champions Leagues is definitely more impressive than 20 league titles and 3 Champions Leagues and I bet plenty of Juve fans would rather have 18 league titles and 7 CLs than 33 league titles and 2 CLs.

With all the necessary respect due, I can see why people here find it futile debating with you. You will twist anything to suit your argument. Anyway, I disagree with you, best to leave at that.

 

[Peyroteo]

With all the necessary respect due, I can see why people here find it futile debating with you. You will twist anything to suit your argument. Anyway, I disagree with you, best to leave at that.

What did I twist? I simply said what I thought.

A Champions League trophy is bigger than a league title so following that logic 18 league titles and 5 CLs is more impressive than 20 league titles and 3 CLs. What’s wrong with that?

 

[gingerless]

This thread is cancer. To some people it doesn't even matter if you have a team that revolutionises football as long as they win less trophies in a tournament. The football that Pep's Barca played was incredible to witness, that's something people will remember over the raw numbers they put up.
Same as Sacchi's Milan at their time which is why I think some people consider milan a better/more successful team than Juve (rightfully or not) even though Juve have more trophies.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

I'm just gonna copypaste my answer in another forum, because you guys only repeat the same nonsense like parrots, so excuse me for being lazy.

To win La Liga you actually have to beat Real Madrid and Atletico, for starters. Those two and Barça have taken 7 of the last 10 spots in UCL Finals, and then you have other European 2nd tier powerhouses like Sevilla.

The top level of your biggest tournament is being set by Spanish teams, in the last 5 seasons Real, Atletico and Barcelona have been the ones knocking themselves, only exception in the past 4 years was Juve in SF vs Real and QF vs Barcelona, then Barcelona and Atletico with monumental screw ups this season.

UCL top teams have basically been La Liga with Juventus in, and ocasional upsets. So excuse me for thinking our league titles can have as much merit as a UCL

That's cool. But Messi would trade any one of his La Liga's for a CL.

Bayern Munich fans, United fans, literally any club in the world would rather take CL than league. You know deep down inside that Ronaldo and Real Madrid have dwarfed Messi and Barcelona's achievements during Ronaldo's reign in Spain.

 

[Shinjch]

That's cool. But Messi would trade any one of his La Liga's for a CL.

Bayern Munich fans, United fans, literally any club in the world would rather take CL than league. You know deep down inside that Ronaldo and Real Madrid have dwarfed Messi and Barcelona's achievements during Ronaldo's reign in Spain.

I'm sure that I am completely in the minority here, but I would rather United won the league this season than the Champions League. Winning a league is much less reliant on luck of the draw and rub of the green. If you win the league there can be no dispute over your team being the best team in the country that season, it is an indicator of consistent excellence. There are far more factors at play in the Champions League that come down to luck. Obviously I would be over the moon to win either, but a league title would show we are back to where we should be.

 

[Cal?]

I'm sure that I am completely in the minority here, but I would rather United won the league this season than the Champions League. Winning a league is much less reliant on luck of the draw and rub of the green. If you win the league there can be no dispute over your team being the best team in the country that season, it is an indicator of consistent excellence. There are far more factors at play in the Champions League that come down to luck. Obviously I would be over the moon to win either, but a league title would show we are back to where we should be.

You are very much in the minority. The Champions League is the ultimate prize in club football.

 

[Shinjch]

You are very much in the minority. The Champions League is the ultimate prize in club football.

I don't dispute that at all. Though I was speaking specifically to United this season. Back under Fergie when we had solidified our place at the top of the English footballing table I would have picked a Champions League alright. Now, I would like to see us get back to that first and foremost. A Champions League can be fluked, and doesn't necessarily mean you are the best team in Europe. A league title cannot.

 

[Cal?]

I don't dispute that at all. Though I was speaking specifically to United this season. Back under Fergie when we had solidified our place at the top of the English footballing table I would have picked a Champions League alright. Now, I would like to see us get back to that first and foremost. A Champions League can be fluked, and doesn't necessarily mean you are the best team in Europe. A league title cannot.

I'm not sure that's true, unless you run away with the title like City did. Winning the title by 1-3pts means it's more than likely to have gone down to 1 game, which is just as likely to be fluked/influenced by refs as any CL knockout game.

 

[Zehner]

That's cool. But Messi would trade any one of his La Liga's for a CL.

Bayern Munich fans, United fans, literally any club in the world would rather take CL than league. You know deep down inside that Ronaldo and Real Madrid have dwarfed Messi and Barcelona's achievements during Ronaldo's reign in Spain.

"Dwarfed" What's the balance again? 4 UCLs, 2 La Ligas and 2 Copa against 2 UCLs, 6 La Ligas and 5 Copas? Barca probably won the vast majority of Clasicos, too. If that's dwarfing for you, then fair enough. Or are you talking about the average physical height of both squads? That would make sense, too.

I mean, I don't even care, I even rooted for Madrid for a fair amount of these 10 years. But honestly, "dwarfing" is just complete bullshit.

By the way, if you ask people which was the greater team, Real Madrid 2013-2018 or Barcelona 2008-2012, people will still answer the latter with many even praising them as the best club side there's ever been. Truth is, numbers are only numbers and consistency isn't nearly as important as peak for the legacy of a club/player.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

"Dwarfed" What's the balance again? 4 UCLs, 2 La Ligas and 2 Copa against 2 UCLs, 6 La Ligas and 5 Copas? Barca probably won the vast majority of Clasicos, too. If that's dwarfing for you, then fair enough. Or are you talking about the average physical height of both squads? That would make sense, too.

I mean, I don't even care, I even rooted for Madrid for a fair amount of these 10 years. But honestly, "dwarfing" is just complete bullshit.

By the way, if you ask people which was the greater team, Real Madrid 2013-2018 or Barcelona 2008-2012, people will still answer the latter with many even praising them as the best club side there's ever been. Truth is, numbers are only numbers and consistency isn't nearly as important as peak for the legacy of a club/player.

4 CL's including a 3-peat will dwarf any achievements.

For starters, that is more than United's history of CL's.

 

[Zehner]

Just spent some time in the "greatest dribblers of all time" thread and honestly, everytime I watch these guys play football, I have a hard time imagining that there's anybody who could play the game better than them. Then I see footage of the next player of this bunch and get the very same feeling. Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo Fenomenon, Best, Cruyff, Pele, Zico, Ronaldinho... they are just jawdropping and it is more or less impossible to really rank them. I still have this feeling when I watch Messi play. Although he's clearly declined a bit physically, he still dribbles regularly past three or four players like it is nothing and constantly looks heads and shoulders above anyone else on the pitch. It is incredibly hard to judge if he's better, on par or worse than these other guys.

Honestly, I haven't had the same feeling when watching Cristiano play for a very long time and I am not sure if I ever had, even in his prime years between 2008 and 2012. When he plays nowadays you don't have the feeling that he dwarfes anyone else on the pitch with his abilities. If you were to suddenly forget everything you know about football players, meaning their names, faces, achievements and so on and then watch a Real Madrid match during their recent very successful era, I don't think the conclusion of your observations would be that Cristiano is the best player.

That's the difference for me. Messi looks incredible on the pitch while Cristiano does so on a spreadsheet. But when you value abilities, skills, influence on the pitch and everything like that highly then it is really hard to see Ronaldo on the same level. I simply can't bring myself to think that Ronaldo at any point in time was the better or even an equivalent player. The only way he can compare is through goal scoring numbers and team achievements and these criteria are very one dimensional.

 

[Zehner]

4 CL's including a 3-peat will dwarf any achievements.

For starters, that is more than United's history of CL's.

Yeah but that's still only 2 more CLs titles than Barca but 4 less league and 3 less Copa trophies. And, of course just totally coincidentally, if you take one more year into the equation, Barca have three CLs, 7 league titles and six Copas compared to Madrids 4/6/5.

Yes, Ronaldo wasn't at Real in this year but the fact that his United side got beaten in the CL final and the coincidence that Barca continued to dominate Real when he moved there imply that he would not have changed anything regarding the outcome. So attributing it to "Ronaldo's reign" is jsut bullshit. Barca totally ripped Real Madrid apart in his first years.

Maybe, just maybe, if you value CLs tremendously above anything else (like 1 Gold medal, 0 Silver medals and 0 Bronce medals are better than 0/10/10) you can say that Madrid "dwarfed" Barca but this is still bullshit in many peoples eyes.

 

[Shinjch]

I'm not sure that's true, unless you run away with the title like City did. Winning the title by 1-3pts means it's more than likely to have gone down to 1 game, which is just as likely to be fluked/influenced by refs as any CL knockout game.

You still have to be consistently good over the other 37 games for that to come into the equation. Over the course of a season the league table doesn't tend to lie. There is also no luck involved in who you play on the way to a league title. Again, I say this not to diminish the achievement of winning the champions league, just to point out that they are very different achievements and require different qualities.

 

[jmaggio]

I have and always will believe that Cristiano edges Messi, and this is 100% not because I don't rate Messi, if not for Cristiano, he would be the GOAT and I probably enjoy watching Leo more than Ronaldo.

Scoring Record

Ronaldo is one of the most consistent scorers in the sport’s history, with over 650 goals for both club and country, including 120 Champions League goals, a record number and a once in a lifetime achievement in itself. Forwards such as him are often lumped into two archetypes: Target men who play with their back towards the goal and rely heavily on their team mates to assist them, or penalty-area poachers who finish off opportunities by feasting on half chances, rebounds and scraps.

Abetted by a natural ability which is enviable to most other players (as is Leo) Ronaldo is able to combine those two categories into a lethal goal-scoring package. Ronaldo is more economical than most others, to use a cliche, a "Clinical Finisher." He has a tenancy to slot home the big chances, no matter how big the stage. Ronaldo has also worked hard at developing a unique technique when striking the ball, whether with the inside or outside of his foot , so that each time it leaves his foot with more of a wobble than a swerve. This makes life very difficult for Keepers.

This combined with his excellent positioning is responsible for his high goal scoring tally. Michael Owen said "It doesn't matter how good a finisher you are if you're not capable of working your way into positions to get chances."

Confidence and "Mental Strength"

Maybe this is a left of field point to be making, but as someone who works in the field of Psychiatrics, I believe that Cristiano has adopted the perfect mindset of an Athlete, one which allows him to produce the Audacious moments we have all enjoyed from him .He dares to attempt what others won’t even consider, and that he routinely makes the impossible, possible. He plays with such little anxiety, even in the face of abject failure. While his team mates often let their shoulders sag in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles, Ronaldo views this as an opportunity for greatness.

Evidence to my point, Ronaldo's two goals in their 3-0 Win over Juventus in the quarter final, particularly his audacious bicycle kick that had everybody talking. It is rare to see someone convert a bicycle kick, 99 times out of 100 it doesn't come off. Buffon didn't even attempt to save it, he was glued to the spot, so perfectly placed was Ronaldo's effort that a GOAT goalie contender was helpless to stop it. It was so unreal that the home fans honoured him with a standing ovation, a real sign of greatness (see the other Ronaldo at OT.)

In the words of Barzagli "It was a Playstation goal, When you play against him you need perfection. As soon as you leave him something he punishes you."

Good in the Air

Ronaldo has so many ways he can beat the keeper, whether its a shot which makes the ball swerve and bobble tempestuously, slipped in at the near post, a free kick, a penalty, but one which makes him stand out is his Aeriel Ability. He is incredibly muscular yet slender, allowing him to routinely out jump defenders in order to win aerial challenges and score spectacular headers. If I remember correctly, there was a University that determined that he can jump 44 cm from being stood still and 80cm when he gets a run up, which was more than your average NBA player. His heading ability gave portugal the Upper hand in their semifinal against Wales in 2016, when he lost James Chester and scored a powerful header to give Portugal the lead.

I remember the commentators stating that he lept around 2 and a half feet in order to head the ball, which meant that he was about 8,7 feet in the air when he met it.

Adapting his Game

Ronaldo has evolved and subtly changed his game over time to suit both his age and the changing face of football. While he was with us and his younger days at Sporting, he was used as a pacy winger normally down the right side. He would use his incredible natural pace and flamboyant skills to take defenders on one on one, and race to the by line to deliver a cross. He was already a top player, but there were little inaccuracies and inconsistencies in his play that allowed "he's nae good at this level" pundits like Souness to belittle him.

His first adaption phase started towards the end of his time with us, when Fergie played him down the middle in a more attacking role, as a forward in our 4 3 3 or behind the main striker. This change of position allowed him to develop into the prolific goal scorer he is today, and his finishing became much more efficient. He became a relentless attacker who would play all over the front line, coming at the defence from all angles. This new Ronaldo continued to develop at the start of his Madrid career, being played from the left but given free license to roam as he pleases.

Over the last 3 - 4 years we have seen another adaption in his play. He has bulked up, particularly in his upper body, increasing his strength and stamina. The physical aspects of his game have improved, allowing him to retain possession for longer periods. He still scores with alarming regularity, but the efficiency of his runs and movement has improved greatly. He has become adept with monitoring his stamina, and making those decisive runs when needed so he can create and finish scoring chances. He drops deep to receive the ball much less.

Ronaldo the Leader

This is something that again, he has developed with age. He is still capable of petulant moments, see this champions league final, but more times than not, he comes up big in the important matches. In his last 4 finals he has scored in each, including two goals in 2017.

He is a valuable on the pitch leader, using words and his style of play to raise the level of those around him. In the 2016 Euro final he was absolutely cleared out by Payet, having to be stretchered off after half an hour. The sight of him on the bench encouraging his team mates, pacing up and down the touchline while carrying a nasty injury has been a historic football image.

Weaknesses

Just to show I'm not too much of a fanboy, I thought i'd include this section. He is not a perfect player, and reluctantly deals with defensive duties (perhaps why Jose had no interest) he often can't be bothered to track back to help out his teammates, or dot he unglamorous work that is required of him.

He is still, unfortunately, a bit of a diver, very skilled at engineering contact and is a regular winner of free kicks and penalties, going down despite his impressive physical stature. It works a lot, but I think refs have cottoned on in the last 2 to 3 years meaning that he doesn't get away with it quite as much as he used too.

Conclusion

Ronaldo is one of few players in history who can turn the tide of the game all by themselves. He is capable of scoring in any game and in any situation.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah but that's still only 2 more CLs titles than Barca but 4 less league and 3 less Copa trophies. And, of course just totally coincidentally, if you take one more year into the equation, Barca have three CLs, 7 league titles and six Copas compared to Madrids 4/6/5.

Yes, Ronaldo wasn't at Real in this year but the fact that his United side got beaten in the CL final and the coincidence that Barca continued to dominate Real when he moved there imply that he would not have changed anything regarding the outcome. So attributing it to "Ronaldo's reign" is jsut bullshit. Barca totally ripped Real Madrid apart in his first years.

Maybe, just maybe, if you value CLs tremendously above anything else (like 1 Gold medal, 0 Silver medals and 0 Bronce medals are better than 0/10/10) you can say that Madrid "dwarfed" Barca but this is still bullshit in many peoples eyes.

Only 2 more CL titles? The number of clubs in existence who have 2 CL titles since the creation of football is 12.

If you seriously want to include 2009 in the discussion, how about the fact Barca shouldn't even be at the final?

 

[Cal?]

You still have to be consistently good over the other 37 games for that to come into the equation. Over the course of a season the league table doesn't tend to lie. There is also no luck involved in who you play on the way to a league title. Again, I say this not to diminish the achievement of winning the champions league, just to point out that they are very different achievements and require different qualities.

No luck involved? If QPR didn't know they were safe 3 minutes before their game finished, City would have 1 fewer title.

 

[Colombian Mancunian]

"Dwarfed" What's the balance again? 4 UCLs, 2 La Ligas and 2 Copa against 2 UCLs, 6 La Ligas and 5 Copas? Barca probably won the vast majority of Clasicos, too. If that's dwarfing for you, then fair enough. Or are you talking about the average physical height of both squads? That would make sense, too.

I mean, I don't even care, I even rooted for Madrid for a fair amount of these 10 years. But honestly, "dwarfing" is just complete bullshit.

By the way, if you ask people which was the greater team, Real Madrid 2013-2018 or Barcelona 2008-2012, people will still answer the latter with many even praising them as the best club side there's ever been. Truth is, numbers are only numbers and consistency isn't nearly as important as peak for the legacy of a club/player.

Dwarfed is an exaggeration. But Inthink they were on top. 4 CLs in 5 years is something that we won’t be seeing any time soon.

The thing is football is not static, Barcelona’s tiki Taka was almost unplayable from 2008 to 2012; but as life itself, football is about adaptability. Most teams learn how to counter Barcelona’s way of playing, and this they were knocked from their perch. Thankfully for them Luìs Enrique added verticality to an outdated way of playing, and they didn’t fall as much as we did. Current Barcelona play on various different ways and adapt to the opponent, instead of being a one trick pony.

Pep’s Barcelona vs. Zidane’s Madrid? Madrid won more significant accolades (4 CLs); and due to Zidane’s team being more recent, they would knowtoncounter Barcelona 2008-2012. I actually think current Barcelona has a bigger chance to defeat Zidane’s Madrid on a one off game. Denver de word: adaptability and evolution.

 

[RedCurry]

Winning the CL is a clearly bigger achievement than winning the league to a point where most fans would easily take 1 CL over 2 league titles.

Agree with the last paragraph though, I think everyone does.

Winning CL isn’t ‘clearly’ a bigger achievement. But it a matter of what you personally care more about. I also would rather watch us win the CL next season over PL but that’s only because I personally want us to close that gap with Liverpool. If we had won it, say 6 times, I would care about PL so much more.

 

[Peyroteo]

Winning CL isn’t ‘clearly’ a bigger achievement. But it a matter of what you personally care more about. I also would rather watch us win the CL next season over PL but that’s only because I personally want us to close that gap with Liverpool. If we had won it, say 6 times, I would care about PL so much more.

That’s like someone saying they’d prefer to win the FA Cup to the Premier League, you can prefer whatever you want but it doesn’t mean one competition isn’t more valuable than the other.

 

[MJJ]

Winning CL isn’t ‘clearly’ a bigger achievement. But it a matter of what you personally care more about. I also would rather watch us win the CL next season over PL but that’s only because I personally want us to close that gap with Liverpool. If we had won it, say 6 times, I would care about PL so much more.

Huh? It clearly is. CL is the pinnacle of club football.

 

[2mufc0]

That's the difference for me. Messi looks incredible on the pitch while Cristiano does so on a spreadsheet. But when you value abilities, skills, influence on the pitch and everything like that highly then it is really hard to see Ronaldo on the same level. I simply can't bring myself to think that Ronaldo at any point in time was the better or even an equivalent player. The only way he can compare is through goal scoring numbers and team achievements and these criteria are very one dimensional.

This what i meant when Messi fans resort to intangibles when they have no answer to Ronaldo's achievements. You talk as though what Ronaldo does is not special, well find me players who have achieved as much as he does. He has a different skill set than Messi, given the results it shouldn't be downplayed as inferior.

Also looking at Messi shrivel into his shell when his teams need him the most recently really hits his reputation hard for me, seems like a fair weather player who can only perform in his comfort zone.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Winning CL isn’t ‘clearly’ a bigger achievement. But it a matter of what you personally care more about. I also would rather watch us win the CL next season over PL but that’s only because I personally want us to close that gap with Liverpool. If we had won it, say 6 times, I would care about PL so much more.

What are you talking about. Every player/club ultimate goal is to win CL.

 

[RedCurry]

That’s like someone saying they’d prefer to win the FA Cup to the Premier League, you can prefer whatever you want but it doesn’t mean one competition isn’t more valuable than the other.

Pretty similar to you saying CL is bigger than league titles. There's nothing quantitative about that, just your preference. I can't possibly care for a trophy that have 7 games of any consequence over a trophy you have to play well for over an entire season.

Huh? It clearly is. CL is the pinnacle of club football.

What are you talking about. Every player/club ultimate goal is to win CL.

If you say so.

Every single player in the world could consider it the pinnacle of their career but it still doesn't change the fact that winning your domestic league requires way more consistency and you can potentially fluke a CL if you're given a favorable draw. Last season Messi was more consistent than Ronaldo but because CL is somehow considered bigger than a league title, Ronaldo will end up with Balon d'or even though he was dire for first half of the season.

 

[MJJ]

Pretty similar to you saying CL is bigger than league titles. There's nothing quantitative about that, just your preference. I can't possibly care for a trophy that have 7 games of any consequence over a trophy you have to play well for over an entire season.





If you say so.

Every single player in the world could consider it the pinnacle of their career but it still doesn't change the fact that winning your domestic league requires way more consistency and you can potentially fluke a CL if you're given a favorable draw. Last season Messi was more consistent than Ronaldo but because CL is somehow considered bigger than a league title, Ronaldo will end up with Balon d'or even though he was dire for first half of the season.

Erm if you do believe that, then its not just me saying that is it? Performing at the biggest stage under pressure has always been valued more than consistency.

 

[Cal?]

Pretty similar to you saying CL is bigger than league titles. There's nothing quantitative about that, just your preference. I can't possibly care for a trophy that have 7 games of any consequence over a trophy you have to play well for over an entire season.

If you say so.

Every single player in the world could consider it the pinnacle of their career but it still doesn't change the fact that winning your domestic league requires way more consistency and you can potentially fluke a CL if you're given a favorable draw. Last season Messi was more consistent than Ronaldo but because CL is somehow considered bigger than a league title, Ronaldo will end up with Balon d'or even though he was dire for first half of the season.

Which has nothing to do with Balon D'or 2018.

 

[Daysleeper]

This what i meant when Messi fans resort to intangibles when they have no answer to Ronaldo's achievements. You talk as though what Ronaldo does is not special, well find me players who have achieved as much as he does. He has a different skill set than Messi, given the results it shouldn't be downplayed as inferior.

Also looking at Messi shrivel into his shell when his teams need him the most recently really hits his reputation hard for me, seems like a fair weather player who can only perform in his comfort zone.

And where was Ronaldo in the semi finals of the most recent CL ornhe 2014, 2016 and 2018 Finals? He’s been quite poor in far more CL Finals than good. Messi is the opposite in his CL Finals.

Ronaldo had teammates who stepped up when he was a no show, Messi didn’t.

 

[Daysleeper]

And zidane really regretted not being able to win more la liga’s, I agree CL means more but it definitely bothered Madrid a bit to not have more La Liga titles even if CL is definitely the more desirable trophy

 

[Peyroteo]

Just spent some time in the "greatest dribblers of all time" thread and honestly, everytime I watch these guys play football, I have a hard time imagining that there's anybody who could play the game better than them. Then I see footage of the next player of this bunch and get the very same feeling. Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo Fenomenon, Best, Cruyff, Pele, Zico, Ronaldinho... they are just jawdropping and it is more or less impossible to really rank them. I still have this feeling when I watch Messi play. Although he's clearly declined a bit physically, he still dribbles regularly past three or four players like it is nothing and constantly looks heads and shoulders above anyone else on the pitch. It is incredibly hard to judge if he's better, on par or worse than these other guys.

Honestly, I haven't had the same feeling when watching Cristiano play for a very long time and I am not sure if I ever had, even in his prime years between 2008 and 2012. When he plays nowadays you don't have the feeling that he dwarfes anyone else on the pitch with his abilities. If you were to suddenly forget everything you know about football players, meaning their names, faces, achievements and so on and then watch a Real Madrid match during their recent very successful era, I don't think the conclusion of your observations would be that Cristiano is the best player.

That's the difference for me. Messi looks incredible on the pitch while Cristiano does so on a spreadsheet. But when you value abilities, skills, influence on the pitch and everything like that highly then it is really hard to see Ronaldo on the same level. I simply can't bring myself to think that Ronaldo at any point in time was the better or even an equivalent player. The only way he can compare is through goal scoring numbers and team achievements and these criteria are very one dimensional.

Not thinking Ronaldo looks incredible on the pitch shows a one dimensional look at the sport and a clear misunderstanding of what makes a player great.

Not thinking he’s the best Real Madrid player shows a complete lack of ability to understand the sport.

Players should be judged on their impact on the game overall rather than a small part of it. How effective a player is matters more than how impressive he looks while he’s doing it since everyone will have their own interpretation of what looks more impressive.

 

[Peyroteo]

Pretty similar to you saying CL is bigger than league titles. There's nothing quantitative about that, just your preference. I can't possibly care for a trophy that have 7 games of any consequence over a trophy you have to play well for over an entire season.





If you say so.

Every single player in the world could consider it the pinnacle of their career but it still doesn't change the fact that winning your domestic league requires way more consistency and you can potentially fluke a CL if you're given a favorable draw. Last season Messi was more consistent than Ronaldo but because CL is somehow considered bigger than a league title, Ronaldo will end up with Balon d'or even though he was dire for first half of the season.

The Ballon D’Or doesn’t take into account the first half of the season, Ronaldo’s had a fantastic 2018 so far and he’s been consistent throughout.

The Champions League being bigger than a league title isn’t really a subjective opinion, just like the Premier League being bigger than the FA Cup isn’t really an opinion either.

 

[RedCurry]

Erm if you do believe that, then its not just me saying that is it? Performing at the biggest stage under pressure has always been valued more than consistency.

I didn't say I believe that, but I was giving you benefit of the doubt.

Let's assume you're right and I am wrong and performing under pressure was objectively much bigger than consistency. Did Ronaldo really do that in last season's CL campaign? His last big performance was in QF, against a 10-men Juve. Is that really what you would call performing under high pressure? It was a big tie but I wouldn't define that as high pressure necessarily. When the pressure was really high, against Liverpool in the finals, he was tamed by an 18-year old fullback. So in reality you're also judging Ronaldo based on his consistency but in a competition which has much fewer games.

 

[RedCurry]

The Ballon D’Or doesn’t take into account the first half of the season, Ronaldo’s had a fantastic 2018 so far and he’s been consistent throughout.

My bad then. Always thought it was a season long thing.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

And where was Ronaldo in the semi finals of the most recent CL ornhe 2014, 2016 and 2018 Finals? He’s been quite poor in far more CL Finals than good. Messi is the opposite in his CL Finals.

Ronaldo had teammates who stepped up when he was a no show, Messi didn’t.

Without his goals, Madrid wouldn't have even got to as many semis/finals as they have.

And even then, he's scored 13 semi final goals and 4 in finals.