He was bloody ancient by then though. He started as a 22 yo in 1969, after dominating College basketball to a ridiculous level. If Messi is still playing at 37/38/39 I wouldn't expect him to still be the dominant player, and because of that I don't see how lowered performances at that age could negatively effect his legacy.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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He was bloody ancient by then though. He started as a 22 yo in 1969, after dominating College basketball to a ridiculous level. If Messi is still playing at 37/38/39 I wouldn't expect him to still be the dominant player, and because of that I don't see how lowered performances at that age could negatively effect his legacy.
Pele's team was so good Brazil won the World Cup easily (each game by 2 goals) after he got injured in the groupstage in 1962.
Not denying that he was really special at the World Cup, but it would have been more comparable if Messi/Ronaldo played for a team like Spain.
It’s unlikely unless he scores loads in the remaining games. The way PSG went out of the CL cost both Mbappe and Neymar a lot.
They've both played for the best club sides in the past 20-30 years arguably, so they've got their perfect platform on club level. Messi being on the best club team ever(2011 Barca) and Ronaldo being on a team that has dominated the modern CL akin to Real themselves during the European Cup's inception.
When the platform isn't perfect, both of them have failed to stand out internationally.
In terms of the GOAT debate, I never thought Messi needed to win the WC to 'cement' it or have a good argument. I'm not including Ronaldo, because I don't think he's in the debate, though I consider him a top 5 player.
He needed to perform at an extremely high level with some circumstances being against him, but he has not.
Pele at a mere 17 during the '58 world cup far eclipses anything Messi and Ronaldo ever did for their national team.
Thank feck they both went out in the same round otherwise this thread would have become even more unbearable
If Croatia has a good world cup, Modric has a good chance to win Ballon'dor, or even Kane if England wins the whole thing. Or even one of the Belgian players with an outside chance.
If either of the above doesn't happen, B'dor belongs to CR7, I think
If either of the above doesn't happen, B'dor belongs to CR7, I think
What would Pele have done if he played for this Portugal team and what would Ronaldo have done if he played for those Brazil teams?
People often dismiss what Messi and Ronaldo do at club level because of the teams they play for but you can't have it both ways. Ronaldo's international career will start being properly apreciated when Portugal go back to normality. People have forgotten what Portugal is.
Exactly.Portugal are at best an average side once you take out Ronaldo. Honestly them winning the Euros was and is more surprising to me still than Greece winning.
Yes. They get too much praise and adulation for their teams success(Ronaldo was good but not great at Euro 16 for instance) and too much criticism for their teams failings. Narratives have become too important.
Perhaps they can't be considered the greatest ever due to not single handedly winning the WC. However I still believe Messi is the most talented player to have lived. In terms of dribbling, passing, vision, finishing, movement, and just all out attacking style, I've never seen anyone better. Personally when I think of the greatest ever it's in the context of the ability as a footballer, not their trophy haul. Maybe that's where the argument becomes blurred and why it goes around in circles; people have their own definition of what makes someone the best.
He's been playing for us since 2004, other teams have done better with more highs but few teams have been as consistently good as us in that time. We've qualified for every single tournament and got knocked out in the group stages just once and it was when we had Ronaldo injured, Pepe suspended and a bunch of other players out.
We won the Euros in 2016 because we had luck going our way, but in 2012 and plenty of other years it was the opposite. If we had won the Euros in 2012 instead of 2016 he'd get more credit which is a weird concept.
You always need a bit of luck but he's the main reason we've been as consistently good as we've been. Comparing our results with other top european teams since Ronaldo's played for us in the 8 tournaments we've played (4 Euros + 4 World Cups):
Germany
They've gone further than us: 3 times
Eliminated at the same stage: 2
We've gone further than them: 3
Spain
They've gone further than us: 3
Eliminated at the same stage: 1
We've gone further than them: 3
Italy
They've gone further than us: 2
Eliminated at the same stage: 2
We've gone further than them: 4
France
They've gone further than us: 3
Eliminated at the same stage: 0
We've gone further than them: 5
Netherlands
They've gone further than us: 2
Eliminated at the same stage: 1
We've gone further than them: 5
England
They've gone further than us: 0
Eliminated at the same stage: 2
We've gone further than them: 5
He hasn't had a tournament like Maradona in 86 but his consistency and longevity throughout the years are the main reason this was possible. Euro 2004 was 14 years ago now and if he stays injury free I have no doubt he'll still be our best player in Euro 2020 and at least play a big part in the 2022 World Cup. For a bunch of different reasons, a lot of them not in his control he didn't have the success Maradona or Pele did at World Cups but he gets nowhere near the credit he deserve for an international career that's as good as pretty much anyone simply because he was born in Portugal rather than one of the top football nations.
If that's the parameters, then no one can be considered great. 'Cause no one has ever single handedly won the World Cup. That's impossible.
Crazy stats. Just proves that the team they're working with are so average, and the myth of one player being able to single handedly win the World Cup is nonsense.
Two of the best of all time and not one goal to show for it
Two of the best of all time and not one goal to show for it
Oh now I get it.
You're right of course.
I should have added that obviously the reverse is the case on the club level. Pele's Santos was arguably the best club in the World though at some point in the early 60s mostly to his performance. Him not playing in Europe, might look suspicious for some from today's point of view, but the league was just as good if not better back then because of Brazilian players staying in SA.
What about MBappe if France wins it (while being the main man) ? I mean he's had a great season in France, I know it's not the greatest league but he's won everything there.
This is the perfect season for another winner other than Messi/Ronaldo
Surely Ramos should be in contention for the Ballon d'Or if Spain wins the World Cup?
8 years ago one could argue Xavi or Iniesta were in with a shout, but it doesn't really work like that nowadays.
Whereas, of course, Pele playing for Brazil, in an absolute golden era of Brazilian football, during which he played for probably the greatest international team ever in 1970, was completely unrelated to his success at the World Cup. Because football isn't a team game, it was all due to Pele that Brazil won those World Cups, and the reason Argentina and Portugal didn't win the 2018 World Cup isn't because they are both completely mediocre sides who never really had any chance of doing so (as I already predicted a couple of weeks ago), it's because Messi and Ronaldo aren't as good as Pele.
Glad we've got that one sorted out...
They changed the voting system so hopefully world cup winners, champions league and domestic league get an equal say to who wins it. I think Ronaldo not playing the semi final and final of CL goes against him.
It's a joke. I can't believe the idiocy I have seen, not just on here, but actually in the mainstream media as well. Argentina in particular are a sh*t team at the moment. They failed to beat an Iceland team who only got one point, they scraped past Nigeria due to some Messi brilliance and a highly unlikely goal, and they shipped 7 goals in 2 games when they played decent teams. They are rubbish. What is Messi supposed to do - set up the goals, score the goals, play the midfield holding role, stop the opposing forwards, and prevent the goalkeeper from letting in soft goals? It's f*cking ridiculous.
Numerous publications are suggesting that there has been a 'changing of the guard' because Mbappe had one decent game. Mbappe is an excellent player, and, of course, one day he will be better than Messi and Ronaldo, because one day he will be 28, and Ronaldo will be 42. But you'd have to say that it helped him a fair bit that he was playing in a very strong side against an appalling defence. He's not suddenly on the level of Messi and Ronaldo. What an insult to what they've done.
This season, even playing in a PSG team who should destroy everyone in the French league, he scored 21 goals and made 11 assists. Messi scored 45 and made 18 assists, and Ronaldo scored 44 in 44 games. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Messi and Ronaldo, let alone should The Independent newspaper claim that there has been a 'changing of the guard'. Mbappe is a highly promising kid, he's had one very good season for Monaco, he wasn't that great last season, he didn't do anything in the group games, and now because of one impressive performance against a terrible defence he's somehow the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It's a complete joke, if you ask me.
Imagine if Ronaldo scored that penalty vs Iran... with their favorite opponent England on the side of the weaker side of the draw -Spain... wow. They could have gotten to another final.
We were 1-0 up when he took that penalty.
We weren't good enough to get to the final anyway, Russia would have been very tough and then Croatia... we'd be big underdogs.
Only way we would have gone far into this tournament would have been retaining the defensive compusure we had during the Euros, from the moment we gave up that 2-1 lead vs Spain the way we did it was obvious this team wasn't good enough anymore.
The 3-0 loss against the Netherlands a few weeks ago was pretty telling.
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He is another good shout, although I don't think he has had as good a regular season as modric, Kane, Debruyne/Lukaku. But what a story that would be. And the next season should start with his signing (muppet dream)
Edit: corrected autocorrected sorry to story
Realistically if anyone win its besides Brazil Messi and Ronaldo one of them will win it. They are still the 2 best players in the world by a LONG LONG LONG distance.
Ronaldo was a slight favourite coming into the World Cup with him, Messi, Salah and Neymar having a chance.
Salah won't win it now, Messi had a worst WC than Ronaldo and Neymar still hasn't shown up. Ronaldo will be a big favourite.
Croatia are in a great position so Modric could have a say in it but if Neymar doesn't take the tournament by the balls then Ronaldo will win it again. I think Messi could easily end up outside of the top 2 if Modric or Neymar finish the tournament very well.
You're ruling out Mbappe, he teared Argentina apart, if he manages to close up a great World Cup he can nail it.
Don't think he's in the running, he had a pretty bad season compared to his last and even in the group stages he was just ok.
I guess if he has 3 more games like the one he had yesterday and leads France to a WC title he can win it too but I don't see it. I think he'll struggle a lot more against a team like Uruguay who will keep a low block.
Yeah I'm implying he's great in at least another game and the final. I'd say the same if Coutinho, Kane or KDB manage to win the tournament being great, I don't rule out some possibilities, I just mentioned Mbappe because his team is already in QF and he's done great in his game yesterday, already has an advantage on the rest of the underdogs.
If he has another three games like that it is not really a question tbh. This was the best individual performance so far. Repeating that in the quarter, semi and the final would probably translate to the best overall WC performance ever.
Have the feeling that the gap between the two and the runner ups hasn't been that small in the last decade. Ronaldo has the big achievements to his belt but his performances from the Juve rematch onwards and his league spell left question marks. Messi had a brillant domestic season and constantly did things only he is capable of but lacks the big trophies. Both went out rather early. We could finally see another winner of this shitty prize.
It's going to be a smaller gap between Messi+Ronaldo and the rest than what it's been for the past decade but it will definitely take something special at this WC for them not to be the top 2 once again. I don't think it will be the last time it happens either.
Looking at Croatia today I'd say... Portugal had every chance. An opportunity missed.
I'm not sure I would have agreed with that before the World Cup, as I assumed Neymar was closing the gap. But based on his performances in this tournament, it doesn't look like he's going to mature into the player that he could be.
You could make an argument for Harry Kane. If he wins the World Cup golden boot, and England win the World Cup, he must have a shot at the Ballon d'Or. He's already got 18 in 25 for England, 41 for Spurs last season, he's definitely in the truly world-class bracket now.
I find the Ballon d'Or ridiculous anyway, considering it just goes to a player from the team that has won the Champions League, or possibly the World Cup or European Championships (but other international tournaments would almost certainly be completely discounted). That's what trophies are for, the trophies that are awarded to the teams after they've won those competitions.
If it's not going to go to the player who has played the best, regardless of what team he is in and what they have won, it's a pointless award. If someone scores 80 goals for Malaga or Udinese, and they finish 4th in their league, he should have a shot at winning it.
According to the Ballon d'Or, Messi has only been the best player in the world once in the last six years, which is just ludicrous.
Both Ronaldo and Messi have won it without winning anything. Trophies matter but they aren't absolutely necessary either. If Salah had a very good World Cup he'd have a great shot at it even with no titles for example.
That is true, but in recent years it has simply gone to which one of Messi or Ronaldo won the Champions League, and almost certainly will again this year. It would have been interesting to see what had happened if Liverpool had won the Champions League. Obviously they have been the two best players, and I'm not one of these people who thinks Iniesta should have won it, because he's never been as good as Messi, or as big an influence as Messi. I just believe that an individual award should go to the best player, and this should be largely devoid of being linked to who won what trophy, as they are already acknowledged with team awards.
Hey, sorry if I said anything rude to you in the past, I was probably in a bad mood. Totally childish. It's only a ballgame. Let's smoke a peace pipe!
With Ronaldo leaving Madrid I honestly feel this rivalry is over. As a Ronaldo fan, I hoped he would have won the world cup and imo that would put the debate to bed but it's forever going to be open now.
I think if Ronaldo wins the CL with Juventus he should be called the better player. Personally, Messi has more natural ability but Ronaldo has worked, improved himself and constantly matched Messi or bettered him at certain points. Then if you look at Ronaldo's achievements, he's won things and proven himself in different league and at different levels. Messi has always been in his comfort zone and when taken outside of it with Argentina has been unable to achieve a major trophy.
Ronaldo will almost definitely win the league with Juve but I know people will just say that it's a 1 team league so CL success will no doubt put him above Messi to a point that I don't think Messi could have catch up to at this point.
Ronaldo will almost definitely win the league with Juve but I know people will just say that it's a 1 team league so CL success will no doubt put him above Messi to a point that I don't think Messi could have catch up to at this point.
I'll accept apologies from anyone who said I was an idiot for writing that Ronaldo was past his best and Real Madrid would be well advised to let him go.
Apparently that was never going to happen.
Still this will be a really positive move for you all, as you'll now have to pretend that you care about Serie A. Previously you would never have watched SPAL play in a million years, and now when Ronaldo scores against SPAL you'll have to pretend that this is really significant.
I'm also looking forward to reading the argument that Ronaldo is better than Messi because Real Madrid were willing to sell him to Juventus, whereas Barcelona would never sell Messi in a million years, so now Ronaldo has played in three countries, so therefore he's the better player.
It's a sensible move from Ronaldo, though. Now delusional Juventus fans can pretend he's the best player in the world as well, along with delusional Real Madrid fans, delusional fans of Man United who probably still think that he's going to go back there, and delusional Portugese people. Oh, and hormonal kids who play FIFA too much. Although the delusional Real Madrid fans might now no longer need to claim that he's the best in the world any more, as he won't be playing for them.
And you can all tune into his new reality show when it comes out. Literally hours of Ronaldo fun to come, watching him have arguments with his family, expand his social media profile, and possibly occasionally score against Sassuolo.
Apparently that was never going to happen.
Still this will be a really positive move for you all, as you'll now have to pretend that you care about Serie A. Previously you would never have watched SPAL play in a million years, and now when Ronaldo scores against SPAL you'll have to pretend that this is really significant.
I'm also looking forward to reading the argument that Ronaldo is better than Messi because Real Madrid were willing to sell him to Juventus, whereas Barcelona would never sell Messi in a million years, so now Ronaldo has played in three countries, so therefore he's the better player.
It's a sensible move from Ronaldo, though. Now delusional Juventus fans can pretend he's the best player in the world as well, along with delusional Real Madrid fans, delusional fans of Man United who probably still think that he's going to go back there, and delusional Portugese people. Oh, and hormonal kids who play FIFA too much. Although the delusional Real Madrid fans might now no longer need to claim that he's the best in the world any more, as he won't be playing for them.
And you can all tune into his new reality show when it comes out. Literally hours of Ronaldo fun to come, watching him have arguments with his family, expand his social media profile, and possibly occasionally score against Sassuolo.
Good luck with that
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