Anyway, I don't want to get into a debate of whether Messi needs to carry Argentina more - but it is absurd to say Ronaldo did it more, which is what I was responding to.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Let it go.
Aguero, Di Maria (who saved Argentina from complete embarrassment today) otamendi higuin (whose qualifying goals have helped Argentina qualify but no we’d rather remember when he bottled it), Otemendi, Rojo (again he saved Argentina from embarrassment ) , Mascherano (still better than pepe ) And ever Banega (Argentina’s best player of the tournament )
But no... void of talent
Never understood this thread. If anything it should be Messi Vs Pele Vs Maradona. But even that's stupid.
Man stop the mental gymnastics. If you think Messi is the goat then good. Even though I think it is Ronaldo I won’t deny the opinion that Messi May be because he is out of this world but his teammates have carried him time and time again . Once again they got him this far in the World Cup .
His national career is a dissapontmet and I am willing to bet Messi himself will say that
The fickle nature of football to a tee.
Ronaldo after Spain game...untold acclamation.
Today, all of this sort of talk.
Even then he's got all the way to finals, including the last World cup!
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better
Just like how you tell yourself goals, trophies and ballon dors don’t matter?
Yes I believe Messi’s international career has been a disappointment and even he will say that . If you don’t think so then fine agree to disagree
May I ask how many assists he's had though in knock out football?
"Complete failure" is such an exaggeration. My point stands though. Messi apparently shouldn't dare be in discussion to be the GOAT due to lack of knock out goals. Irregardless of how many extra games he's played compared to Ronaldo, surely a player in the GOAT discussion would have scored by now.
Just playing devil's advocate because I think the original arguement is plain bullshit.
Or do you mean his qualifying GOAL (one, vs Belgium)?. He's on a 756 minute drough with Argentina, btw, that's the one who's going to help Argentina win a World Cup?
Either way
If this isn't trolling I'm the Pope
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They're both past it. Mbappe vs Cavani is where it's at now.
To me this will be the eternal debate.
Using the standards of this thread Cavani is the GOAT today
Because he did it an hour ago, and not four?.
I'm more of a Mbappe guy, call me outdated.
Argentina left at least 4 midfielders at home that would be starters for us... William starts for us, Battaglia wasn't even close to getting a call up for Argentina and they were about as good as eachother throughout the year. What does that say?
There are about 10 argentinian centrebacks that would start for us too. And Tagliafico is 100% better than Guerreiro. Patricio and Ronaldo are the only 2 players that would start for Argentina. Maybe Cedric or Ricardo Pereira over Mercado.
The fact Argentina have a much better squad than portugal is even having to be argued is bonkers.
Ultimately both Portugal and Argentina are poor teams being carried by Ronaldo and Messi. That's why they are both exiting at last 16 stage. Argentina have some good strikers but absolutely shambolic midfield and defence. Portugal is toothless upfront apart from Ronaldo, little creativity in midfield but have a better defensive shape than Argentina. At the end they cancel each other out.
Incredible that these incredible argentinian centrebacks concede 3 or 4 goals everytime they face a team that can play football.
Who cares about who was left at home?. Messi went out today playing with Mascherano, Enzo Perez, Banega and Pavon. Ronaldo with Carvalho, Mario Lopes, Andre Silva and Bernardo Silva. Both midfields suck, are we having a competition about who sucked more?.
Then it's about the pairs, Guedes or Di Maria? Di Maria is better, but we're not comparing players from different galaxies, and the same could be said about Bernardo Silva over any midfielder in Portugal. The two best players in the world play in their NT with midfields worthy of 3rd rate countries, we fighting who has it worst in that context now?.
I'm talking about their squads rather than their first eleven because Argentina simply didn't play their best players. The fact that Argentina's best players got benched is their problem, Messi has more than enough influence to change that.
Argentina's midfield is several levels above Portugal's and so is the rest of the team. Obviously.
Banega has also been great at this World Cup by the way.
Argentina has better individuals in their squad but ultimately the game is not about Player A> Player B but who has a more functional and cohesive tactical unit. Argentina were utter shambles and Portugal, despite having less individuals, were the much better team imo. Obviously a lot of that boils down to the respective administrations and managers but that's whole other topic altogether. If given the choice between featuring for this Argentinean side or the Portugese one in this World Cup, I can't see anyone choosing the former over the latter, if that makes sense.
So, now you're advocating for Messi to impose his criteria over the coach, and force him to play Lo Celso, Dybala, Banega or who knows, maybe even Paredes?.
Banega was decent in a team full of awful, he was nowhere great, no one was great for Argentina this World Cup.
The discussion becomes about how much influence Messi has in those problems for Argentina and I do think everyone agrees it's both not fully his fault but that he's also not completely blameless.
No, but Dybala not playing has obviously A LOT to do with Messi for example. And so do a lot of their tactical problems.
How much he could do we'll never know but since he has more power than anyone in that dressing room it's fair to assume he should take some of the blame for the mess Argentina got themselves in.
Hope today is the beginning of the end of their preeminence at the top of the game. Love them both but it would be good for the game if other players start to challenge/surpass them, freshen it up at the top.
It's always the same with you guys, he should take some of the blame for any of Argentina's problems, but when we talk about reaping the merits, he's 3rd in the merit list, if not hindering the team with his pressence like you're hinting at with the Dybala thing.
And we all concur Dybala should get his chances ahead of 90% of that squad, but he's still the guy in 13 games with Argentine has scored 0 goals and has 1 assist to his name, vs Singapore. Let's be real, if we talk about hurting Messi's performance to include that player into the starting 11, it's a gamble, not a bulletproof decission.
Pretty much as a passenger, and won none of them. Hardly the mark of someone who wants to be considered as the greatest of all time.
How is it a gamble when the attack has been working horrendously? It would be a gamble to put him in if things were actually working well but why would playing Dybala have been a gamble at all?
Dybala played 13 games and had 1 assist and 0 goals... the problem is that plenty of those games are 15 minute subs. He's played 566 minutes for Argentina in his whole career. That's 6 full games.
Given what's been said about it to the press it's only logical that Messi is a big part of the reason Dybala barely plays, is that wrong?
William is better than Battaglia @Peyroteo our problems aren't only related to individual quality, but this is not the thread to talk about it.
Absolute nonsense.
This is almost surely their last rodeo. Ronaldo may continue to the next Euros but I can't see him staying til 2022. That said, I don't see either losing much dominance at the league level for another couple of years.
What press, the same ones that bash him for any reason, like saying he hid today, when his maximum rival did less than him and gets no critics?.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Dybala is not good enough to improve the team, I'm saying there's a chance that happens, not something solid, this article sums it up better.
https://www.blackwhitereadallover.c...-sampaoli-2018-fifa-world-cup-team-management
"That lack of versatility was an issue for Juve all year, but it’s not an insurmountable obstacle. With time, training, and a good tactical mind, Dybala can be molded to fit a system.
Unfortunately, Sampaoli is not the kind of coach that can do that.
For a player who can need time to find the right set of tactics, Sampaoli is perhaps the worst coach to ave. Why? Because Sampaoli has no plan.
Sampaoli has used three different formations in the tournament, and played musical tactics during qualifying as well. The result has been predictable: Argentina hasn’t looked like they know how to do anything other than pass the ball to Messi and get out of his way".
Unfortunately, Sampaoli is not the kind of coach that can do that.
For a player who can need time to find the right set of tactics, Sampaoli is perhaps the worst coach to ave. Why? Because Sampaoli has no plan.
Sampaoli has used three different formations in the tournament, and played musical tactics during qualifying as well. The result has been predictable: Argentina hasn’t looked like they know how to do anything other than pass the ball to Messi and get out of his way".
When you point at Messi as the reason Dybala doesn't play, you're assuming he'd rather play with subpar guys like Meza, Pavon or Acuña, than World Class. Why I don't buy that?, Because the same was said when Barcelona signed Neymar "Messi won't be OK with that", repeated with Suarez, now we know he not only accepted that, he cherished playing and sharing the spot with guys of that class, pretending he'd be against Dybala or Lo Celso for fear or not being Argentina's go-to player, and choosing a bunch of guys that aren't even UCL material is just the press generating drama.
@Peyroteo im not sure if you underrate your players or overrate other teams so it’s probably a bit of both.
Wasn’t Guerrero one of Portugal’s best players in 2016? Tagliafico has done nothing of note at Ajax whereas Guerrero has looked fairly solid at times both in midfield and at left back for a much better team.
Wasn’t Guerrero one of Portugal’s best players in 2016? Tagliafico has done nothing of note at Ajax whereas Guerrero has looked fairly solid at times both in midfield and at left back for a much better team.
0 goals in World Cup knockouts. 3 tournaments now. The very best simply don't have these question marks over them.
Ronaldo doesn't have the greatest record either but he did string it together for Euro 2016.
Jesus, bashing on a guy for not scoring in 3 World Cup KO, and hyping another that has failed in the same way.
Doesn't get better than the Messi v Ronaldo thread
I'm not saying Messi chose to play without Dybala because he doesn't like him and he wants to be the star alongside Meza rather than sharing the pitch with other world class players. You misunderstood me.
Dybala didn't play because according to him he couldn't play with Messi, surely Messi could have done more for that to not be the case?
Argentina's tactical problems and lack of cohesion were obviously not solely caused by Messi but Messi has responsability for that too. I have no doubt at all that Sampaoli is the biggest reason why things went the way they did but I also have no doubt that Messi also has his fair share of responability on it. How much is it we'll never know.
another twist in the plot -
are we any nearer a resolution?
are we any nearer a resolution?
Guerreiro in 2016 was better than Tagliafico and one of our best players, Guerreiro now is not as good as Tagliafico.
He barely played all year and imo he was our worst player in this World Cup.
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