another twist in the plot -
are we any nearer a resolution?
This World Cup could have ended, now it will never end.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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This World Cup could have ended, now it will never end.
Jesus Christ. How many World Cup knockout goals has Ronaldo scored?
It's a bullshit statistic to use in the arguement if you're going to use it for only one side of the spectrum.
Dissapointed in Ronaldo and Messi. More so Messi because he has the ability to be better, whereas Ronaldo has declined physically which is a bigger part of his game.
Messi edges it for me
Messi edges it for me
Will we get a new Fifa player of the year? With both out of winning the world cup or FIFA will reward them again like in 2010
Finally, we agree xx
The mighty Bosnia, fearless Iran, dominant Nigeria and unbeatable Switzerland!
Hey.
We're not that bad(Bosnia)
Ronaldo was a passenger in the two most recent rounds of CL, passenger in the 2014, 2016, and 2018 CL final and the Euro final
Both shit
Both will be back. Because what are either nation conjuring up that will prevent them from hanging around/coming out of retirement next time?
Messi will be back as Dybala's playmaker as he can settle into a similar role at Barca once they buy either him or Greizmann.
Messi will be back as Dybala's playmaker as he can settle into a similar role at Barca once they buy either him or Greizmann.
It really has become like MJ V Lebron in Basketball tedium, with stat obsession and the competition to declare one players teammates as shitter than the other. Supporting individual players over teams, with every game they play treated as the deciding factor.
MARADONA!!!!!!
Still easily MJ for me. He and the Bulls were practically unbeatable in his prime.
LBJ just lost 2 series in a row.
LBJ vs KB is more a discussion
True story - LeBron has never lost two series in a row.
So both never won a World Cup. Rather disappointing IMO.
Did you know Argentina have never been more favoured to win a World Cup than when they won it in 1986(4/1 second favourites, Brazil 7/2) - yet both Ronaldo and Messi are relentlessly compared to him.
They hovered between 7-10/1 in WC's before and since it. Not sure Portugal have ever truly been single digits.
They hovered between 7-10/1 in WC's before and since it. Not sure Portugal have ever truly been single digits.
KAJ was better than them both, just far less marketable. The thing is these individual comparisons are more understandable in Basketball because as a sport one player can dominate to a far greater degree than in football.
There was an argument that was often brought up this past NBA playoffs that LBJ would be better off losing before the finals than to go to that stage and lose again. I hate that argument, on so many levels.
Anyway Cruyff has been under represented in this discussion, never won a WC but still one of the greatest and most important players ever. Used to say that when 4/5 goals up he would rather hit the post than score because it created more excitement for the fans, someone should have told him those extra goals would be so critical in his goat placement.
OT: But KAJ was not better than both.
He wasn't even the best player on the Lakers in the late 80's.
Can we all agree now that neither of them is the GOAT? You can't be the greatest of all time if you don't set the world on fire on the most important tournament (and both of them had 4 attempts at it). Awesome players, easily top 5 player of all time, but they should be remembered in Di Stefano/Cruyff bracket rather than on Pele's level.
The problem is maintaining consistency, if you want to look at it that way Ronaldo Nazario is up there too, hell, if we talk about delivering in the most imporant tournament Iniesta may be 4 games away of surpassing Leo and Cris like a rocket, even put himself above Maradona, on par with Pele.
If we're going to judge players by their collective merits then I guess winning a couple WC's is arguably top tier, then there's winning everything at club level, and below that winning a little less but having absurd stats. What pisses me off is inconsistency, if we talk about skill then who cares if a player won 2 World Cups with Brazil while another never made SF with Croatia?.
I honestly think that it is a very big disappointment for both of them to not only never had a historical WC tournament performance, but actually never even score in a WC KO match, and actually finish with 6 respectively 5 goals in 4 combined tournaments.
I think that they are easily the best players of all time when it comes to club performances (Messi the higher peak, Ronaldo the longer longevity) and will go deservedly so, and the opinion of whom of them has been better at this stage is a matter of opinion/bias, but they should have done better when it comes to WC. Messi actually had a platform to win it all, Ronaldo didn't, but I cannot justify him for not winning against this Uruguay (ok, in 2014 he was quite injured, but still, being unable to reach KO stage is not justifiable).
Lucky to have seen them not for practically entire career though.
@Revan @Ishdalar I think it is very unfair the GOAT, they are certainly the best from this century.
Also Cristiano best teammates were on the teams from 2004/2006, it is easy to compare with French, Brazilian or Spanish players, but when you are 33 years old facing Godin and Jimenez without a single minute of rest and your forward partner is Guedes or Andre Silva it is understandable his performances decreased as the competition developed.
I still keep my opinion even today Messi had a better supporting cast than Cristiano, Santos should have rested him against Iran, but we needed to qualify.
Also Cristiano best teammates were on the teams from 2004/2006, it is easy to compare with French, Brazilian or Spanish players, but when you are 33 years old facing Godin and Jimenez without a single minute of rest and your forward partner is Guedes or Andre Silva it is understandable his performances decreased as the competition developed.
I still keep my opinion even today Messi had a better supporting cast than Cristiano, Santos should have rested him against Iran, but we needed to qualify.
The two boys have dominated the highest standard of footballing history for 10 years. To write them off due to a tournament with too many external factors is nonsense. They are the greatest players to have ever played.
What is their argument over Pele?
Messi had definitely a better supporting crew, I have never put it in doubt. To be fair, I kind of supported Argentina until this last cup so it kind of sucks for me too. At the same time, it needs to be said that Messi was unlucky with coaches. Had Pekerman continued, Argentina would have win something. Had Maradona not been a total idiot and had he called Riquelme (who IMO has been the best performing Argentinian player since Maradona, I have him above Batistuta, and Bati above Messi) in 2010, Argies would have done better and probably win an American Cup if not the world cup. A big big shame.
I am not writing them off. I think that both of them have been awesome and I have doubt that an another player would replicate what they have done in the near future. However, I cannot totally give them a free pass for their relative not great performances in international football. They were hardly bad there, but they definitely not awesome.
I have both of them on pair with Maradona, Cruyff and Di Stefano, but not with Pele who actually is the only attacker in the history of the game to have been hugely successful (as the main player) both with club and country.
When I left the hype of 2012 behind (because who wouldn't get a little tipsy after your favourite player scores that load of goals) I just started believing that International competitions are the real measurement for both of them, I think it's safe to say they've never delivered at their club form in any tournament, not by stats or in performances that left us in awe.
So... I think it's fair that both of them didn't get to play for international juggernauts, had Messi played for the Spanish team and had we retained the same level with him his dimension as a player would probably be absurd, same player, but unreal silverware and stats.
Same could be said for Ronaldo had he been Spanish or German, I don't think their international careers take away their club merits, but it puts them in context.
I'm just talking about the criteria I'm not ranking them there. I have my own view, titles and stats might have a specific weight, but I judge players in the context of what they bring to their team, how hard would be for other players to replicate them and what kind of players they had around. I'd understand if someone said "X is the best because of Y" on a fair point and defended that opinion until the end, I just get irritated with "X is the best because of Y", "But Z did more than X in Y", "Nah, because I don't want to believe that".
About the supporting cast, one thing is having a better team on paper, another is how they play, and even another point is how they act in transcendental games. I watched every minute of Argentina and even if they could be solid players, they sucked, they feared failure so much that they their legs almost fainted. With Portugal I don't really rate some of their players, but I've seen Mario or Silva do some simple link-ups today and keep the ball and just thought "they're not brilliant, but I'd hope Argentina could do that consistently".
I think it was probably because Argentina came to this World Cup believing they had the pressure of winning it and knowing they didn't have enough quality. Portugal played with less pressure, they weren't favourites, they could just go out there and play, end of the day the other 10 players knew no one was expecting much from them, kind of "Either Ronaldo carries us or we go back home". A bunch of Krillins in the hands of Son Goku
Problem is they only played relatively well today, and that was because Uruguay scored first and basically told "take the ball and come to us".They were on their Beach.
Still think Bernardo was our best player today, even William for the stick he receives here I think he played better certainly than what I expected.
The big problem is the way this manager sets up them to play and I personally blame Cristiano for not having the intelligence to understand we have been playing crap for 4 years and he seems more obsessed with results, goals, individual performances than quality of play.
After all he was caught up on cameras at half time telling Santos we were playing shit against Morocco.
Regarding the rest I personally don't think Cristiano could have done much more at International Tournaments, maybe South Africa 2010, in 2014 we wasn't fit, and in 2006 he was mainly a kid who wasn't a goalscorer, nothing to do with Mbappé with the same age.
At least this World cup has proven once again that football is a team game. Unlike basketball where there are 5 players on the court at any one time. Football is 11 and you can't really carry a side without help, no matter how good you are. France and Uruguay deservingly advance over the two best players in the world.
This is how I feel. In 10+ years I believe they will most likely be seen on the level below Pele/Maradona and more on the level of Cruyff/Beckenbauer/Di Stefano.
I don't think Cristiano needed to win the WC with Portugal for instance, but I do think both of them have underperformed in WC knockouts.
In the end, the stupid ref who gave the penalty to Iran has cost Portugal a QF place. Oh well...
Or Ronaldo's poor record when it comes to taking pens for Portugal?
Are you still sure that Ronaldo is winning Ballon d'Or?
How are you getting Internet connectivity in there?
Portugal would have won regardless if it wasn’t for that nonexistent penalty
As long as Brazil don’t win the WC
Or France with Mbappe the standout player of the tournament.
Agreed, pretty much my point upthread. You can't be considered the greatest of all time if you have never stood out away from your preferred club environment. Ronaldo has done more than Messi in that respect but neither has removed all doubts.
I choose ability side.
So a lot people will be regret about that;If only,we should have enjoyed both of them instead of comparison...
So a lot people will be regret about that;If only,we should have enjoyed both of them instead of comparison...
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So in conclusion, Ronaldo=Messi
And Pele is still the GOAT
And Pele is still the GOAT
Maybe no one is THE goat?
Several fantastic players will always pop up in any conversation about the greatest players but any argument is bound to be inconclusive.
Pele, for instance, won the WC with fantastic teams and legendary team mates. If anything, it's Maradona who had the most impressive WC ever and won Serie A with Napoli vs a great Milan team.
And Messi and Ronaldo smashed goalscoring records on club level.
Cruyff was arguably the most charismatic of them all, not only a fantastic player but an inspirational leader too. In this regard, he's far superior to Messi and Ronaldo.
And then you have Di Stefano who by all accounts was world class in several positons on the pitch and not just an exceptional forward.
I would say Pele is the only player who has perfect career for both his club, country and individual level. For Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Cruyff and Di Stéfano, they all achieve GOAT Status, but not as completed as Pele.
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