Then he should really have worked on his fitness levels more. Not asking him to be a Kanté type of player who always keeps running but if he isn't producing during games, how can one even justify running less than goalkeepers ? It makes no sense. I remember the year they got their first treble he was incredible, scoring, creating, working his socks off. Yes that was a much younger player but Messi has been on 'walking-mode' for a few years now. It's a bit pathetic
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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It's actually Big Four but, "you know", whatever
Anyone who has followed the CONMEBOL qualifiers knows Argentina have been shit and barely got to the WC, Croatia was the favourite going into this game for me and it's definitely not a shock that they won - the way Argentina crumbled and played is the real shock here, since they were even worse than expected.
I was very disappointed in Messi yesterday - there was a point when they were 1-0 down around the 75th minute and Dybala had the ball on the right wing in space and Messi, who was on that side just sauntered waiting for the ball to be played back into him rather than making a run. The best chance he had all night was the one time he ran in behind and missed his volley. He has no urgency any more, compared the tenacious player that he used to be.
This thread is a mess. How on earth are people comparing nation sizes as an argument between Messi and Ronaldo is fecking nuts.
Seriously go and get yourselves checked out.
I've seen another saying Messi is only considered the GOAT due to his goalscoring
Someone made an argument made that Argentina is a WORSE team than Iceland or Croatia.
I countered with two factual rebuttals:
1) FIFA rankings indicate otherwise
2) Based on population alone, Argentina should have a better team than both Iceland or Croatia
I supported each rebuttal with rigorous statistical data created by professionals.
Messi-fans rebutted with "lol population size honkey-donk!"
It's actually Big Four but, "you know", whatever
Anyone who has followed the CONMEBOL qualifiers knows Argentina have been shit and barely got to the WC, Croatia was the favourite going into this game for me and it's definitely not a shock that they won - the way Argentina crumbled and played is the real shock here, since they were even worse than expected.
1) Yeah Big Four, I got confused with the "Big Three" auto industry.
2) Teams that have "barely got to the WC" or had a "poor runup" have also done well, ala Germany several times, so that's not dispositive whatsoever.
3) It definitely is a shock that Argentina lost. Just do a google search for "Argentina shock loss croatia" and laugh at the results. You will see over 5 million search hits, with titles ranging from "Argentina shock" or "Argentina disaster."
Regardless of your personal views, Argentina losing 0-3 to Croatia shocked millions of football fans.
Can't mate, I'm still laughing at your population argument.
where'd you get those stats?
Are we making stuff up now?
UOTE]
https://www.news.com.au/sport/footb...a/news-story/10c558fccf0c0570f35395f973a45c0f
Apparently wrong, thanks for the correction.
His stats are still not good enough, mind, let alone for the best player in the world.
I hoped that he would have a great tournament. His poor movement means that he is too dependent on his Barca team mates to create space for him and find him in dangerous positions.
Messi ran 7,6km, Modric ran 9,8km. Huge difference in work rate.
Laughing because it's so sad that a country that is expected to win the WC lost to a country that has only 334,000 people? Lol! So let's do some math:
334,000 / 2 [factoring out women] = 167,000
167,000 / 2 [factoring out men over age of 40] = 83,500
83,500 / 2 [factoring out men under age of 20] = 41,750
I did not factor out the disabled, the handicapped, the obese, etc.
So lets say all 41,750 men between ages of 20 and 40 that remain know the rules of football and have seen a ball before. Out of this lot, they somehow managed to find 11 players who were good enough to utterly humiliate one of the favorite teams from a country of 40 million + that is utterly obsessed with football, with the supposed GOAT playing on that team...
LOL!!!!!
Iceland didn't beat Argentina though..
I don't think it's realistic that any player could clock an average of 4500 minutes a season for 10 years in a row and cover a lot more ground than Messi, he's gone over 5k minutes a couple seasons, maybe even bordered the 6k including NT games, and traveling to South America on top of that, he'd have to be a physical freak in stamina and durability to stretch the rubber, and he was already prone to injures 12 years ago.
This is one of those topics that have been talked about for hours, you can choose having Messi available for 90', 60 games a year, on reduced ground covered, and yet he's able to make the difference be it in the 10 first minutes or in the 93'. You can't really afford to bench him and lose 45' of potentially closing the game with him in the pitch, we also know that he plays better the more "flow" he finds playing games, to a certain extent, obviously fatigue sometimes catches him in the worst moment.
But still, any Barcelona fan that has watched him play for 10 years probably doesn't have a problem with how much he runs, I'd say it's "weird" that the ones attacking him are people that are biased against him.
Sorry, I should clarify. Humiliated.
I'm not worried about how much a player runs, but how much he contributes. Messi has delivered the goods for Barca, but the problem is that he doesn't elevate his national team, and therefore he can unfortunately never be the goat. Ronaldo has performed (and won stuff) for different clubs and his nation and is the best of the two for me. He's a stronger candidate to be the goat than Messi.
Bold: wrong.
Underlined: even more wrong.
Calculation: pathetic.
We're done here, I'm gonna go wonder why China hasn't won the World Cup last time since they have, according to your awesome math skills, 175,000,000 people to choose 11 good footballers from.
Basically, you concede that he is so effective in attack because he is carried by his team mates. They compensate for his poor work rate and his lack of defensive contributions.
But Ronaldo manages to contribute in attack without being a passenger for most of the game. How does Ronaldo manage to be fresh while running further than Messi every fecking game for the last 10 years?
Croatia have a better midfield than Argentina. Surely that's indisputable even for yourself? Why doesn't population size affect that part then?
I actually rate them as equal, but your argument of population size is nonsense.
It may be a good measure of winning trophies, as on average more people gives a larger pool to pick from, but their are much more nuanced factors when analysing just 2 teams. China doesn't ever make the world cup for instance.
If he walked around the pitch in 90% of the games that are easy games but then actually worked a lot for the team when it gets tougher then he'd be treated differently and he's more than capable of doing that. There's really no excuse for it... he played a bunch of minutes this season where he should have been resting too.
If his fitness isn't good enough and it means he has to rest so much during games, then why doesn't he rest when Barcelona are comfortably winning games or when they're playing games that don't mean anything?
Ronaldo is a passenger for most of the game though. I really don't understand these Messi vs Ronaldo arguments. Truth be told, they are very close and the only thing that really differentiate them is form and style, on equivalent form they are as lethal as the other and we should just appreciate them.
Thats not true though
So I wonder what I’ve missed out on ever since the WC started? Hope the Messi fanboys are doing alright
Ronaldo"s stats in the CL reveal that he is averaging 1,5 km per game more than Messi. Over 50 games that amounts to 75km per season. Big difference in work rate that.
In Russia, he's averaging 1,2 km more than Messi. That's a lot. Basically, that amounts to 60 runs of 20m. Huge difference.
What's the point of such a comment if you are not backing it up with any stats?
Waiting @Ishdalar to post a video on how great he was yesterday but got let down by his teammates, and stats don't reflect his majestic performance.
On real world though, absolutely pathetic performance, can go down as his worst ever at a time when they really needed him to be GOAT Messi.
You obviously didn't even bother to read the PWC study, where they tell you why China hasn't won the World Cup, since population size isn't the only variable.
Ignorange is fatal when coupled with arrogance.
FIFA rankings ranked Argentina #5. Iceland at #22.
You are factually wrong and incorrect. But here you are, insisting that both FIFA and PWC are wrong and incorrect! LOL!!!!!
Which stat did you use to back up your own comment?
Again, I suggest you actually open up the link and not get intimidated by long words. They address the China, India and USA issue regarding population.
It's kind of shocking how people are dismissing the population argument without actually even reading the source of the argument, which is authored by professionals at one of the "Big FOUR" accounting firms...that's one heck of a dangerous combination of ignorance and arrogance!
Maybe Croatia has a better midfield, but not an Earth-shattering difference. If you want a comparison in Earth-shattering differences in squads, look at Argentina vs. Iceland!
Anyways, you would think a team with the so-called "GOAT" could overcome a marginally better Croatian midfield, especially when you consider Iceland's heroics against a far superior (on paper) Argentina team. Instead, Argentina got wiped out.
So let me ask you a simple question: If Iceland can hold Argentina, why the h*** is Argentina with the GOAT Messi getting hammered by Croatia? Because Croatia is the "better team?" Well if the "better team" wins, why did Argentina tie against Iceland? Is that because you are now asserting that Argentina is no better than Iceland?
That is factually rebutted by two sources:
1) Population argument published by PWC
2) FIFA rankings
Also, that is factually rebutted by the presence of the Messi fanbois, who claim that Messi is the GOAT. GOAT should easily make up for any difference in ability between ARgentina and Iceland.
BBbbbut excuses start...
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I knew this play would come up, thank god I saved it, already post it earlier.
Argentina is losing 0-1, almost out of the World Cup, 12 minutes to go and still their attacks are almost a 3 vs 7, I'd say Messi is not the only one being apathetic there.
And what do you think is the right move there, making a run into 2/3 players for a ground pass, try to break in and win a header as a 170cm player vs a bunch of guys north of 180cm, or asking for the ball, keep posession and wait for the rest of your team to come?.
Playing with urgency is one theing, being stupid is another, Dybala showed in this action and the one before where he tried an absurdly hard shot that he was playing stupidly.
Thank god Portugal only have a population of 10M, they barely like football and Ronaldo, like Messi, is nowhere near to have a claim as the GOAT.
Otherwise it would be extremely humiliating for them to get a 1-1 draw and finish behind them in the group.
This is the biggest issue with the Messi fanboys, any criticism is seen as an attack by people biased against him when it's the Barca fans who are the most biased ones and refused to even open to seeing his deficiencies.
How much he runs is a problem when he doesn't produce or when his teams needs him the most and he is a no show in these past few years.
You cannot play most games with the same running average, some games are bigger than others and require you to push yourself more. He just doesn't do it or just cannot do it which is a bit of a joke. Older players than him, players who have had longer careers have maintained decent to great stamina levels.
Exactly, the mileage excuse cannot be used for Messi. The idea isn't necessarily to compete with Ronaldo regarding mileage but at least do a little better in the bigger games. Hurt yourself. What he did for the 3rd goal, for anyone who can watch replays is terrible, he follows Rakitic and then decides to just stop. I mean, wtf ?
It is a variable yes, one of many.
You literally said "they should be beating Iceland because they have a bigger population" in so many words. That's nonsense, plain and simple.
Well, he wasn't dispossessed 7 times, neither had a 42% pass accuracy or was caught 4 times in offside. The whole Argentina team only had 3 offsides.
Anyway, doesn't really matter, in 8 months you guys will still preach the teachings of July 21th, the day Messi had a 42% pass completion and had all the offsides of his team, plus another one when he swapped shirts with Rakitic.
It doesn't mean much, they don't play the same role, Ronaldo has been a winger/inside forward for the best part of his career while Messi has been more central. Genuine wide players cover more distance that's part of their role. It's also irrelevant when it comes to quality. The one thing that I think is true is that with Ronaldo, you have more flexibility, he is a more versatile athletes which means that there are more team combinations that would suit him, Messi being a playmaking-goalscorer, he needs to have teammates that suit his skill set. In a way I'm just parroting SAF, so I'm being useless here.
If this WC hasn’t shown who the best is then there’s nothing really to say.
Ronaldo loves the pressure. Messi doesn’t. He simply isn’t up for it and doesn’t have the mentality of Ronaldo. The first game vs Spain, the game that lit up the World Cup - Cristiano lit up the world. Who doubted him when he went up to take the FK? That composure, that deadly stare. You just knew it was going in. He made the best international CB partnership in Pique+Ramos look average and made the best goalkeeper in the world in De Gea look human. Who else is capable of that? Nobody. Ffs he could’ve honestly taken the following game off from having carried Portugal the way he did.
International goals:
Ronaldo - 67 in competitive games, 17 in friendlies
Messi - 34 in competitive games, 30 in friendlies
...all that needs to be said about pressure moments. I’ve mentioned before but at the end when it’s so close it comes down to legacy defining moments. Ronaldo has far more of those then Messi. You think Maradona you think the goal vs England. You think Ronaldo you think CL king and Euro champ. You think Messi atm you think bottler.
And today’s game vs Croatia proves that. He just isn’t up for it. What a deflating frame of mind to have. You see Croatia’s last goal? Messi literally gave up. When he doesn’t have the Xavi’s and Iniesta’s of the world, he’s just not good enough. The difference between club and internationally is night and day and goes to show how dependant he is on Barca’s system and players. Even this year they nearly fecking went undefeated in the league. How come the Xavi’s and Iniesta’s and Villa’s were able to have international success outside of the club but why can’t the same be said for Messi? That’s very telling. And then you have Ronaldo who can be put into any side and he’ll produce as he’s known to.
Ronaldo loves the pressure. Messi doesn’t. He simply isn’t up for it and doesn’t have the mentality of Ronaldo. The first game vs Spain, the game that lit up the World Cup - Cristiano lit up the world. Who doubted him when he went up to take the FK? That composure, that deadly stare. You just knew it was going in. He made the best international CB partnership in Pique+Ramos look average and made the best goalkeeper in the world in De Gea look human. Who else is capable of that? Nobody. Ffs he could’ve honestly taken the following game off from having carried Portugal the way he did.
International goals:
Ronaldo - 67 in competitive games, 17 in friendlies
Messi - 34 in competitive games, 30 in friendlies
...all that needs to be said about pressure moments. I’ve mentioned before but at the end when it’s so close it comes down to legacy defining moments. Ronaldo has far more of those then Messi. You think Maradona you think the goal vs England. You think Ronaldo you think CL king and Euro champ. You think Messi atm you think bottler.
And today’s game vs Croatia proves that. He just isn’t up for it. What a deflating frame of mind to have. You see Croatia’s last goal? Messi literally gave up. When he doesn’t have the Xavi’s and Iniesta’s of the world, he’s just not good enough. The difference between club and internationally is night and day and goes to show how dependant he is on Barca’s system and players. Even this year they nearly fecking went undefeated in the league. How come the Xavi’s and Iniesta’s and Villa’s were able to have international success outside of the club but why can’t the same be said for Messi? That’s very telling. And then you have Ronaldo who can be put into any side and he’ll produce as he’s known to.
Making a run between the back four and the midfield where he could play a one/two with Dybala on the edge of the box perhaps? Or turn and dribble or make a shot 20 yards from goal? If he makes any sort of run he's going to drag two players with him and create space for his team mates - the one place the defenders want him is 35 yards from goal with 6-8 of their teammates ahead of him.
Urgency begets urgency, especially from a captain - if he shows it then perhaps it will spur his team mates on.
I already said before that his workrate can't be defended, but that still, if that's a flaw in his game I have to eat, in order for him to do all the other things, I'll do it gladly.
Same way I can point out Ronaldo having literally half the touches than any other Real Madrid field player on a UCL semis (Isco got subbed in the halftime for Asensio) and 99% of you guys would say "who cares, what's important is that he scores his chances, not how many passes or touches he has".
It's literally the same biased point of view, on two aspects of the game (distance covered vs involvement in the game) considered basic at top level, you're not sad when Cris plays like that, we're not rabid when Leo doesn't break the 8km barrier, who cares?.
At the moment, sure. In terms of best over the course of their career, not really.VancouverUtdFan said:
And enough of this BS that Messi has a shit international squad. The audacity and lengths people go to exonerate this fella of an ounce of blame is ridiculous.
Argentina are eye to eye with Brazil, Germany, France. Portugal are only barely scraping that conversation because of Ronaldo. Take him out of the team and they’re no different than Iceland. Take Messi out of Argentina and they still have a handful of quality players, something that can’t be said for Ronaldo and Portugal.
...but hey, at least Messi got a photo op with some goats and ruined his own legacy by bottling the WC. So entitled, so glad he’s been exposed. Hangs his head and doesn’t inspire his teammates. It’s all fine and sunshine’s when things are going well but when they’re not, don’t even bother looking to him.
Argentina are eye to eye with Brazil, Germany, France. Portugal are only barely scraping that conversation because of Ronaldo. Take him out of the team and they’re no different than Iceland. Take Messi out of Argentina and they still have a handful of quality players, something that can’t be said for Ronaldo and Portugal.
...but hey, at least Messi got a photo op with some goats and ruined his own legacy by bottling the WC. So entitled, so glad he’s been exposed. Hangs his head and doesn’t inspire his teammates. It’s all fine and sunshine’s when things are going well but when they’re not, don’t even bother looking to him.
Stop.
I’ve said Messi is the more all around gifted / not as one dimensional. Doesn’t mean he’s the better player. I want the player who shows up and you know you can rely on, that’s the bottom line.
Argentina is not an eye to eye to Germany, Brasil or France. Not a chance. They have a good attack, but the rest of the team bar Otamendi and Mascherano is average. So in that regard they're only slightly better than Portugal.
Portugal has a working system since 2016 and now how to play to Ronaldo's strengths whereas Argentina team is full of problems starting with a manager who lost the plot.
I'm not saying this as an excuse for Messi, in this point of time Ronaldo is clearly better. Team or no team Messi was nowhere to be seen yesterday and pressusre has gotten up to him it seems while Ronaldo is totally pumped, enjoying himself and constantly moving giving his teammates an option to pass.
But as I said Argentinian team is worse than Brasil or Germany and saying they're on par with them is totally wrong.
Obviously they’re worse than them but they’re in that sams discussion/group as them.
...why do Messi fans act like he plays with scrubs? He has Aguero, Otamendi, Di Maria, Dybala, etc. Portugal was awful vs Iran but Ronaldo was able to score and get the W. Messi isn’t the same player he was 3 years ago and Ronaldo at 33 yrs old is still at the top of his game.
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