That's totally, not at all, in the slightest why I consider him to be the GOAT so I don't feel the need to address the question.
You brought population into it, I'm still laughing, fecking hell
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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You brought population into it, I'm still laughing, fecking hell
Do I need to start making arguments about how MVP is subjective and an emotional award? I didn't see any MVPs in any of those games, they were all just equally bang average to me. And yes, bad awful etc. are exagerations, but compared to the enormity of expectations on Messi at the 2014 World Cup, he was a bitter disappointment.
That's totally, not at all, in the slightest why I consider him to be the GOAT so I don't feel the need to address the question.
You brought population into it, I'm still laughing, fecking hell
You got it all wrong. You should be laughing at the fact that Argentina tied against....ICELAND, that football giant of a nation.
And yes, do ignore carefully thought-out research again proving that population is correlated to WC success (and they do account for anomolies such as India, USA, etc., which typically have less investment and infrastructure for football).
I love Messi but the Messi lovers on here must have faces likle tomatoes through pure embarrassment at Messi's lack of leadership and his inexplicable cowardice. Yet again Ronaldo must be laughing at him, he always seems to get the last laugh over the Argentine.
Is he not getting the injections he used to? I don't know. Has Messi only been a top player because of the doping and injections forced on him by Barcelona and Pep Guardiola? I don't know the answer. But the future will hopefully allow us to find out.
What makes such a great player such a little cowardly bottler?
Is he not getting the injections he used to? I don't know. Has Messi only been a top player because of the doping and injections forced on him by Barcelona and Pep Guardiola? I don't know the answer. But the future will hopefully allow us to find out.
What makes such a great player such a little cowardly bottler?
Supposedly, if you look past the ‘quiet man’ persona that is used in stark contrast to Ronaldo’s brash nature, he’s not a nice guy. “Mini dictator” I’ve heard mentioned. When you him demanding penalties, despite his frankly average penalty record, it’s easy to see this could be true.
Lionel Messi vs Croatia
0 goals
0 assists
1 chance created
4 dribbles completed
1 key pass
7 times dispossessed
2 fouls given away
42% pass accuracy
4 times caught offside
3 shots off target
shocking
0 goals
0 assists
1 chance created
4 dribbles completed
1 key pass
7 times dispossessed
2 fouls given away
42% pass accuracy
4 times caught offside
3 shots off target
shocking
You guys realize Uruguay (3.5M) have two World Cups (four if you count their 2 Olympic golds before WC like they do), three fourth places (one just 8 years ago) and a bunch of top-16 finishes, right?.
Netherlands (twice), Uruguay, Portugal, Croatia, Sweden and Bulgaria, that's 7 of the last 24 semifinalists there, all of them under 20M population, and only Netherlands above 10M.
Netherlands (twice), Uruguay, Portugal, Croatia, Sweden and Bulgaria, that's 7 of the last 24 semifinalists there, all of them under 20M population, and only Netherlands above 10M.
It's not a few bad games... Chile in 2016, Atletico in 2015/16, PSG in 2016/17, Juve in 2016/17, Roma in 2017/18. Don't get me wrong, every player will have poor games but with Messi it's been happening way too frequently on the big stage.
These are THE games. These games are worth more than the 50 games he's going to play throughout the season, obviously if he plays an incredible amount of games against crappy La Liga team he's going to score a lot and his goal average is going to look great but what's the point of it if then he's too tired to make the difference he should be making when it counts the most?
Portugal have a much worse squad than Argentina, you can paint it or twist it whatever way you want but that's the truth. William was as good as Battaglia for my club this season, William starts for Portugal, Battaglia doesn't even get called up for Argentina and then there are people pretending Portugal have a better midfield... I mean, come on. Banega, Lo Celso and Biglia are better than Moutinho too, Argentina have about 10 different CBs and 40 different strikers that would start for Portugal ffs.
The problem with Argentina is they aren't a team and I've been saying this for over a year.
Everything that isn't subject to stats is subjective, and even stats might be affected by things out of the control of a player, beyond that we're leaving "earthly" football, and we start dwelling into "philosophical football", like Ibra likes to call Guardiola.
To me it's easy, there were 22 players on the pitch in, say, Argentina vs Switzerland, Messi was the better between those 22 (or maybe you'd like to call him the less bad). Can't be easier to see than that.
I'm still waiting for the source of your stats though.
If you look at the picture of him during the national anthem it looks like he's carrying the weight of Argentina on his shoulders and not able to handle it. Almost reminds me of Ronaldo in '98 and whether the pressure in that final has just gotten too much to handle. Doesn't change my mind one iota about the guy as a footballer, just shows he's human.
But would highlight the pressure Christiano faces is much less than Messi has to endure. Argentina expect to win the world cup every time they enter, especially if you look at the attackers they have at their disposal. What many Argentinians are blind to is their keeper / defence are shocking and the midfield is so poor when compared to other countries. Messi can't play as he does for Barca when he has a team like this to carry, plus with the already mentioned pressure of expecting to win it because they have Messi. Portugal don't have this pressure which I think allows Christiano to play with more freedom / relaxed frame of mind - even though I admit he's leading his country with fine example and making the other players raise their game with him.
Winners will most likely be big nations, yes. Your "stats" mean nothing with respect to one game. Iceland knocked out England two years ago, and don't be surprised if Croatia gets to the quarters this year or further. Croatia's team is miles and miles better than Argentina so you bringing up the size of their population is simply laughable.
Agree with the bolded part, which is why I also said that Ronaldo has narrowed the gap. However, I see your examples start in 2016 - can't be bothered to look it up but the decade before then, he did enough to still be considered better than Ronaldo overall for me, no problem if you disagree with that.
You're also basing yourself too much on names imo, as I do think Argentina, man for man, could have a better team than Portugal. But on the field, they couldn't be further apart. Portugal plays like a real team, and actually know how to defend. If you have an all-time great up front who scores a goal more often than not, you have a great chance at winning a lot of games. Argentina's names might be great ("Icardi Dybala Higuain Messi Aguero woooow") but they can't play like a team even if their lives depended on it. Last night, they were like a 5-0-5 formation for parts of the second half, that's how deep their problem is rooted. No movement at all, no tracking back, poor defending, ... I'll concede that part of that is down to Messi, yes, and he certainly didn't do enough for me. So yeah, agree with you that they aren't a proper team although they do have the potential to make one probably. Disagree on the CB part though, Otamendi is miles off Fonte's and Pepe's level (even now) for example. Even then, individual quality as a CB means little if you can't play like a cohesive back line.
Good points. But youn can say that Madrid fans expect from their team to win the CL and Ronaldo delivers every fecking season, especially from the last 8 to the final.
This is where a manager's role come into play, Messi should be used for dragging players away and creating space, he still attract 2,3 defenders easily. Argentina has potent strikers in Kun and Dybala who can make use of the space created by Messi. If it was me being manager, would have instructed Messi to not try do everything and just be playmaker than being playmaker and finisher.
And create a solid base behind him, by giving a double pivot for defensive stability and a stable defence. Rojo would have done far better than any of the defenders who showed up (or didnt) yesterday.
Is Messi so much more useful to his team than Ronaldo that he is allowed to run much less than Ronaldo? Serious question. Messi's running stats are infuriating.
That's fair enough. I'd obviously take Ronaldo but I don't think the gap is big enough for me to really argue against that either, I might criticize Messi but he's without a doubt a top 5 player in the history of the sport imo.
Well we actually don't anymore but whatever. I completely agree that Portugal is a team and Argentina isn't but I also think Messi and Ronaldo have a lot of responsability in that being the case.
Otamendi is a starter for Manchester City... Jose Fonte was considered not good enough for West Ham's bench and has been crap for chinese league standards all year. Pepe is 35 and not the Pepe he's been in previous years, our defense is currently very weak, the way we folded against Spain was pathetic.
True, Ronaldo definitely has a lot of expectations weighted on him at Real. But so does Messi for Barca. The difference is at club level they both have the support they need to let them do what they can do. At Madrid Ronaldo has Ramos / Verane / Marcelo / Kroos / Modric / Isco / Bale to help him out. Messi similar at Barca. Which is why we're all loving this amazing rivalry because they're got great teams behind them and it's up to them to do that piece of magic that sets them out from all these great players.
At International level, both countries are not that great are they. However Messi for me just has that extra pressure to actually win it on him which seems to be strangling him. Gutwrenching to see. But as mentioned, I am impressed with Ronnie's ability to handle the pressure and still do the business.
I really want one of them to win the WC. I wasn't around or watching football when Maradona and Pele were playing. Messi and Ronaldo have had their careers during my time. Couple of decades on, I want to be able to say Ronaldo or Messi are the GOAT, without someone bringing up the WC argument.
Distance covered: 7.6 km Top speed: 27.43 km/h
Lazy and slow.
Oh sweet child, Did you ever hear the tragedy of Lukas Podolski The Pole? I thought not. It's not a story the Arsenal/Bayern fans would tell you. It's a German legend...
There's just guys that are awful at club level and then are able to show up for the NT, maybe Fonte is one of them, anyway, in a serious note, I wouldn't rate Portugal's defense for the way it crumbled against Spain, I mean, Costa, Isco, Silva, Iniesta (sometimes), Alba, Thiago and even Nacho scoring a screamer, you're using probably one of the best 3 attacking teams to measure that defense.
If there's one advantage Ronaldo gives any team over Messi, is that you can basically defend with 10 players and Ronaldo as a target man, you get a 8/10 target man to clear the ball into, and if it falls into a Portuguese player in the extension, you still get to attack with Cristiano Ronaldo on your team.
I think you have hit the nail on the head here.
This thread is a mess. How on earth are people comparing nation sizes as an argument between Messi and Ronaldo is fecking nuts.
Seriously go and get yourselves checked out.
I've seen another saying Messi is only considered the GOAT due to his goalscoring
Seriously go and get yourselves checked out.
I've seen another saying Messi is only considered the GOAT due to his goalscoring
Fonte has been just as bad for Portugal though, so much so that Benfica fans are pushing for Ruben Dias to take his place. We simply have no decent CBs other than Pepe, there are about 10 different argentinian CBs that would start for Portugal. Even Pepe is nothing special anymore.
I mean we crumbled against Morocco too, Guerreiro had the worst individual performance I've seen in this World Cup so far and if Morocco could finish they'd have scored 3 or 4. Our luck was that chances kept falling to Benatia.
You'll go crazy when I tell you that's on the high side of distance covered when we talk about Messi.
He ran 84.4meters/minute today
His mean after 3 UCL games this November was 82.72
https://en.as.com/en/2017/11/08/football/1510135047_114179.html
But as always in the past 8 years, this is only a problem when he loses.
2 months ago, when he does the same but wins, he's praised for being a smart player
You'll go crazy when I tell you that's on the high side of distance covered when we talk about Messi.
He ran 84.4meters/minute today
His mean after 3 UCL games this November was 82.72
https://en.as.com/en/2017/11/08/football/1510135047_114179.html
But as always in the past 8 years, this is only a problem when he loses.
2 months ago, when he does the same but wins, he's praised for being a smart player
Well, if he does enough to be able to justify not running then it's smart. If he doesn't do enough then it is worth criticism.
Not running is definitely a bad thing either way though. Ideally he'd be able to do the same as what he does but still run a lot more for the team.
Fonte has been just as bad for Portugal though, so much so that Benfica fans are pushing for Ruben Dias to take his place. We simply have no decent CBs other than Pepe, there are about 10 different argentinian CBs that would start for Portugal. Even Pepe is nothing special anymore.
I mean we crumbled against Morocco too, Guerreiro had the worst individual performance I've seen in this World Cup so far and if Morocco could finish they'd have scored 3 or 4. Our luck was that chances kept falling to Benatia.
You can count your blessing we detained Ruben Semedo, otherwise...
You'll go crazy when I tell you that's on the high side of distance covered when we talk about Messi.
2 months ago, when he does the same but wins, he's praised for being a smart player
I've always criticised him for his work rate.
Don't think his antics would have gone well in Russia of all places
Well I can't really defend his workrate, I understand him playing like he does, has worked for a decade, but if you believe he could run 2km more a game and do the same... that's fair, I'd guess.
Personally, I'd rather have Messi run 7km and be fresh in the 85th minute, than having any other player in the world running 9km.
And still be able to knock Messi out of the CL QF, as per usual.
There's a massive difference between a 20M population and 334,000. In fact, that's a 1,000% difference. You should actually read the studies regarding population. They are really well-written and thoughtful.
For me I see it like this. They are both 2 of the greatest players ever (and the best in my lifetime).
I see Messi as a 8 or 10 player. As in he fluctuates and sometimes doesn't perform his best. He also had the luxury of amazing players next to him at Barcelona when he was at his best - Ronaldo did not.
Ronaldo is a 9 player - consistently amazing performances. He does sulk sometimes - but even when he sulks - he doesn't disappear.
I see Messi as a 8 or 10 player. As in he fluctuates and sometimes doesn't perform his best. He also had the luxury of amazing players next to him at Barcelona when he was at his best - Ronaldo did not.
Ronaldo is a 9 player - consistently amazing performances. He does sulk sometimes - but even when he sulks - he doesn't disappear.
These aren't "stats." These are the results of a highly comprehensive (and very expensive) statistical survey conducted by Pricewaterhousecoopers, you know, one of the Big-Three accounting firms that also does work for places like Google and Apple.
The fact that you are saying Croatia's team is miles better than Argentina is just so mind-boggling.
https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/index.html
Even FIFA disagrees with you. As of June 8, 2018, FIFA had ranked Argentina #5. Croatia #20. Iceland #22. Stop making silly excuses for Messi and his utter failure this WC. The only viable argument is that he's old and past it, or he's burnt out after a long season.
Stop making things up.
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where'd you get those stats?
Are we making stuff up now?
Jesus, do they have a bunch of monkeys randomly hitting keys for stats?
Three sources, three totally different sets of stats.
Ronaldo is a "10" for me, just because he is the catalyst in attack and also the finisher for the team. Performed when it matters 90% of the time.
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