Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[padr81]

Higuain's goals have dragged Argentina to many finals in the first place. Always love how people forget that. Also... why couldn't Messi score his penalty? The fact that he keeps buckling under pressure is not a coincidence.

The difference is simple. Ronaldo has carried his team to success and Messi hasn't. Now you can write walls upon walls of text on why this has happened but the fact remains that Messi has failed internationally.

are you serious, he didn't even play the final he "carried" them too... he scored three goals in the entire competition... got them a draw against Hungary, done nothing in the last 16, nothing in the last 8, did well scoring the vital goal v Wales and then was a cheerleader in the final... he did have 3 assists as well in fairness but hardly carried them, though he dug them out a hole in the groups.

Strange two terrible games in the groups (including being marked out of the game vs Iceland) followed by one performance against a shite team to scrape them out of the group. If Messi does the same v Nigeria will he be carrying Argentina? No you'll be jumping through hoops to discredit him, how lucky he get etc...

Higuains goals.. you mean the one he got in the entire WC 2014 (admittedly in the last 8), when they reached the final after starting every game at no.9? Or do you mean all the times he scored the last goal/goals when they were handing out thrashings to the US or Jamaica etc...

Keeps buckling under the pressure? you mean 2 bad games in one competition, just like the man you worship at the start of Euro 2016...

 

[Ishdalar]

Doesn't matter how long it lasted. It was a team of Champions League winning quality already before Messi was a regular, and once Ronaldinho disappeared Henry was brought in, and Xavi and Iniesta also started blossoming as a partnership after that 2006 win.

There's no way to argue that Messi turned a team of down-on-their-luck journeymen into world beaters. That Barca team was going places with or without Messi. The fact that Spain won three international titles on the trot with a spine almost exclusively made up of Barca players proves that. Of course, with Messi that team went from being great to being possibly the greatest ever.

It was, 3rd in La Liga before Guardiola, 18 points behind Real Madrid.

Jesus, it's like arguing against a wall, or an army of Cals, I never said that team was built on down-on-their-luck journeymen, I just used the situation Barcelona was on, pre-2006 and 2007 and 2008 to expone against the first concept I replied, the story that Real Madrid were an awful, uncompetitive team that needed Cristiano like he was the messiah, he pushed them closer to the level of Pep's Barça, but Real Madrid had already won 2 of the last 3 leagues before Ronaldo joined, and they compete in the same league as Barcelona, we're not comparing best league in the world vs farmer's league.

 

[padr81]

Yep.

It’s no competition which nation has better strikers.

Aguero, Dybala, Icardi and Higuain. Internationally that’s the best strike force.

Ronaldo has Silva, Eder and Guedes. It’s not even a contest.

And 1 of them plays while the other don't. Its not like those 4 are on the pitch. In this competition Aguero has played, in 2014 it was Higuain.
No one argues they have top strikers, what people argue is the rest of the team is atrocious...

Would Portugal even without Ronaldo ship 3 goals to that Croatia team? Would Portugal without Ronaldo lose 6-1 to Spain?

The team Argentina had out today wouldn't finish top half of the premier league without Messi. 8 of their players wouldn't get games at 90% of prem clubs.

 

[meamth]

What the heck, Messi fanboys are comparing teammates to justify Messi's world cup performance!!

You can't get any shallower than that.

 

[Bojan11]

And 1 of them plays while the other don't. Its not like those 4 are on the pitch. In this competition Aguero has played, in 2014 it was Higuain.
No one argues they have top strikers, what people argue is the rest of the team is atrocious...

Would Portugal even without Ronaldo ship 3 goals to that Croatia team? Would Portugal without Ronaldo lose 6-1 to Spain?

The team Argentina had out today wouldn't finish top half of the premier league without Messi. 8 of their players wouldn't get games at 90% of prem clubs.

Portugal conceded 3 to Spain. If Morocco weren’t toothless in front of goal they would have conceded. Their fullbacks made Amrobat literally look like Messi.

So yes there’s a strong chance Croatia would have scored 3 past them. But there’s a chance Ronaldo would have scored too.

So let’s not make excuses. Both Portugal and Argentina aren’t great. Difference currently is Ronaldo is scoring.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Keeps buckling under the pressure? you mean 2 bad games in one competition, just like the man you worship at the start of Euro 2016...

Actually no, TERRIBLE, absolutely AWFUL performances at FOUR consecutive World Cups. "Bbbbbut he scored against Bosnia and Iran in the group stages in 2014!!!"

Not saying Ronaldo had a great World Cup, but at least Ronaldo's teams have legitimately been garbage. Messi's last 3 teams have varied from respectable to world class.

 

[Ji_Maria]

And 1 of them plays while the other don't. Its not like those 4 are on the pitch. In this competition Aguero has played, in 2014 it was Higuain.
No one argues they have top strikers, what people argue is the rest of the team is atrocious...

Would Portugal even without Ronaldo ship 3 goals to that Croatia team? Would Portugal without Ronaldo lose 6-1 to Spain?

The team Argentina had out today wouldn't finish top half of the premier league without Messi. 8 of their players wouldn't get games at 90% of prem clubs.

The rest of the team is atrocious? That's laughable. On paper, 2014 Argentina was easily top 3, possibly the best on paper. And yet, Messi failed to show up except against Iran and Bosnia. Knockout stages, Argentina barely squeezed by the almighty Belgium and Switzerland (each with far worse teams) and had to get past Netherlands on penalties.

Defenders: Federico Fernandez (Napoli), Ezequiel Garay (Benfica), Martin Demichelis (Manchester City), Pablo Zabaleta (Manchester City), Marcos Rojo (Sporting Lisbon), Jose Basanta (Monterrey), Hugo Campagnaro (Inter Milan).

Midfielders: Fernando Gago (Boca Juniors), Augusto Fernandez (Celta Vigo), Javier Mascherano (Barcelona), Angel Di Maria (Real Madrid), Lucas Biglia (Lazio), Maxi Rodriguez (Newell's Old Boys), Ricardo Alvarez (Inter Milan), Enzo Perez (Benfica).

Forwards: Sergio Aguero (Manchester City), Gonzalo Higuain (Napoli), Lionel Messi (Barcelona), Ezequiel Lavezzi (Paris Saint-Germain), Rodrigo Palacio (Inter Milan).

 

[Acheron]

An audio of Simeone has been leaked talking to el mono Burgos(second coach). It is about the Argentine national team, about the anarchy of the team, and the bad approach of the coach. He criticizes among other things the choice of the goalkeeper.
Later he says that someone has to fight blabla and "Messi is very good because he is surrounded by extraordinary players ... and the question I ask you, if you had to choose between Messi and Ronaldo for a normal team, who would you choose? "

Whomever leaked that must really hate Argentina or something, I agree in most of what he says but it's very harsh on them given the moment so this is only making things worse, lol. Which could be a good thing if they make an overhaul in their national team and start fresh with new generation of players.

 

[Ishdalar]

You must be delusional to believe this. The season before Ronaldo joined Madrid they were being THUMPED by Liverpool in the CL home & away whilst being humiliated by large scorelines in El Clasico. Barca at the same time were playing their best ever football and winning the treble. There were a number of clubs better than Madrid before Ronaldo moved there including the team he left behind while Messi's team were the undisputed top dog in Europe. Ronaldo joined at the beginning of a project which saw some of the biggest transfers in football history completed in one window.

I'm not delusional, I know the story of both teams, the contexts and remember better than you.

"They were thumped by Liverpool and humiliated by large scorelines". Let's see what you need to kill Real Madrid

1) You need them to fall into complacency after winning 2 leagues, last of them setting the, at that moment, points record (85) with a mediocre coach like Schuster
2) Their star striker (RVN) getting injured in November for the rest of the season
3) You need to demotivate his coach with some precious football, to the point of him claiming "we have 0 chances to beat Barcelona in El Clasico", so he gets fired.
4) Turn them into buffoons in the winter window, because they signed two players and didn't know how the UEFA/UCL rules worked (regarding Lass and Huntelaar, who Real signed to cover for RVN in Europe but couldn't be registered)
5) Have the luck that their president (who won 2 leagues vs you, despite being awful) gets caught by Marca on assembly fraud and resigns, opening a crisis in the club
6) Have their incumbent President put pressure on his players and motivate Liverpool by claiming "We're going to win the league and the Champions, we're gonna win 3-0 here and 1-2 in Liverpool, they'll have to attack and we'll piss over them"
7) After lossing RVN for the season and Robben (their best player) for 5 games in November, having their coach sacked saying his team wasn't good enough to face Barcelona,falling 12 points behind Barcelona in fixture 15, being eliminated by a 3rd division team in the Cup 1st round, their president resigning for fraud, exposed for idiots in the transfer market and a clown in charge saying nonsense...

You still have to go to the Bernabeu, in match day 34, and kill them with one of your best games ever, because they've been in a 52 points out of 54 run in the last 18 games, and they were just 4 points behind you.

Let that sink in, you're Barcelona, you're having your best season ever, everyone is praising the way you play, you have the best player in the world and your rookie manager seems to be reinventing football, but you still had to go to the Bernabeu, to play a once in a lifetime game to stop the bleeding against a team that was supposed to be dead in December.

Now tell me, you think a team that was able to fight back Barcelona in "the best season ever" had no saving graces and was as bad as you're saying?. No other squad in the world would've survived that amount of turmoil and fight until May against what was regarded the best team ever, and it's not like it was a great manager who performed a "Fergusian" miracle, we're talking about Juande Ramos.

You think that same team turned into a 96 point machine the next season just because of Ronaldo?. That's as ridiculous as saying Messi turned a 67 points team into treble winners on his own in 12 months.

 

[Moby]

Messi fans clutching on to poverty La Liga wins while ignoring CL and WC failures is just pure gold.

 

[Prometheus]

Messi fans clutching on to poverty La Liga wins while ignoring CL and WC failures is just pure gold.

Absolutely. I'm having a fantastic time reading their rationalisations!

 

[Ji_Maria]

Messi fans clutching on to poverty La Liga wins while ignoring CL and WC failures is just pure gold.

I'm not a fan of Messi at all (see my other threads) but Barcelona have a strong CL record during Messi's tenure, on par with Real and Bayern.

 

[Moby]

Barcelona have a strong CL record during Messi's tenure, on par with Real

During Xavi's* tenure.

And no, not even close.

 

[ManUtd1999]

I can't believe I now have to argue that Diego 1986 was a better performance than Messi 2014

I would leave you guys to this insane debate.

It’s indeed insane to compre Maradona 1986 to Messi 2014.

 

[Ishdalar]

The rest of the team is atrocious? That's laughable. On paper, 2014 Argentina was easily top 3, possibly the best on paper. And yet, Messi failed to show up except against Iran and Bosnia. Knockout stages, Argentina barely squeezed by the almighty Belgium and Switzerland (each with far worse teams) and had to get past Netherlands on penalties.

Defenders: Federico Fernandez (Napoli), Ezequiel Garay (Benfica), Martin Demichelis (Manchester City), Pablo Zabaleta (Manchester City), Marcos Rojo (Sporting Lisbon), Jose Basanta (Monterrey), Hugo Campagnaro (Inter Milan).

Midfielders: Fernando Gago (Boca Juniors), Augusto Fernandez (Celta Vigo), Javier Mascherano (Barcelona), Angel Di Maria (Real Madrid), Lucas Biglia (Lazio), Maxi Rodriguez (Newell's Old Boys), Ricardo Alvarez (Inter Milan), Enzo Perez (Benfica).

Forwards: Sergio Aguero (Manchester City), Gonzalo Higuain (Napoli), Lionel Messi (Barcelona), Ezequiel Lavezzi (Paris Saint-Germain), Rodrigo Palacio (Inter Milan).

You start by forgetting he also put 2 on Nigeria, no biggie, just another "anti" forgetting facts.

The rest, you have to be joking, right?.

A squad with Romero, Orion, Andujar, Fede Fernandez, Demichelis, Rojo, Basanta, Campagnaro, Gago, Augusto Fernandez, Biglia, 33 y/o Maxi Rodriguez, Ricky Alvarez, Enzo Perez and Palacio... top 3? Between those 15 players they add up 6 titles on European top 4 leagues (shared between Demichelis, 4, and Gago, 2) and 0 Champions League, that's a competitive squad?.

And from the other 8 reasonably good players three of them never really broke into world class (Zabaleta,Garay and Lavezzi) and five were fighting for 3 spots (Lavezzi, Agüero, Higuain, Di Maria and Messi himself). Oh, and now looking at those names, in 2014 from their 8 star players, only Mascherano, Messi and Di Maria knew what it was to set a foot on even on a UCL semifinal, nevermind actually playing a single minute on a big tournament final (be it WC, Copa America or UCL).

Solid squad? yeah, top 3?. Not even in Peron's wildest dreams

 

[Ishdalar]

Messi fans clutching on to poverty La Liga wins while ignoring CL and WC failures is just pure gold.

During Xavi's* tenure.

And no, not even close.

Oh, so that's why we sucked in 2014, we lacked Xavi, he was leading Argentina to the final, I'm relieved.

 

[Daysleeper]

Messi fans clutching on to poverty La Liga wins while ignoring CL and WC failures is just pure gold.

And yet zidane said how upset he was that they couldn’t win la Liga more often and how tough it is.

I’d take CL over La Liga but it wouldn’t surprise me now that zidane is gone if Madrid don’t win anther CL for the next few years. They were running on fumes and luck this season in CL

 

[Treble]

You start by forgetting he also put 2 on Nigeria, no biggie, just another "anti" forgetting facts.

The rest, you have to be joking, right?.

A squad with Romero, Orion, Andujar, Fede Fernandez, Demichelis, Rojo, Basanta, Campagnaro, Gago, Augusto Fernandez, Biglia, 33 y/o Maxi Rodriguez, Ricky Alvarez, Enzo Perez and Palacio... top 3? Between those 15 players they add up 6 titles on European top 4 leagues (shared between Demichelis, 4, and Gago, 2) and 0 Champions League, that's a competitive squad?.

And from the other 8 reasonably good players three of them never really broke into world class (Zabaleta,Garay and Lavezzi) and five were fighting for 3 spots (Lavezzi, Agüero, Higuain, Di Maria and Messi himself). Oh, and now looking at those names, in 2014 from their 8 star players, only Mascherano, Messi and Di Maria knew what it was to set a foot on even on a UCL semifinal, nevermind actually playing a single minute on a big tournament final (be it WC, Copa America or UCL).

Solid squad? yeah, top 3?. Not even in Peron's wildest dreams

Holland had a nothing squad compared to Argentina and finished 3rd. Robben did much more for them than Messi for Argentina.

Messi was poor/average in the knock-out games. Is this up for debate now?

He was shocking vs Iceland and Croatia.

There is a simple reason why he struggles outside Barca despite his immense talent: his movement is poor. Only the keepers run less than him in every competition he takes part.

 

[Moby]

Oh, so that's why we sucked in 2014, we lacked Xavi, he was leading Argentina to the final, I'm relieved.

That is possibly the worst correlation ever drawn.

 

[Ishdalar]

Holland had a nothing squad compared to Argentina and finished 3rd. Robben did much more for them than Messi for Argentina.

Messi was poor/average in the knock-out games. Is this up for debate now?

He was shocking vs Iceland and Croatia.

There is a simple reason why he struggles outside Barca despite his immense talent: his movement is poor. Only the keepers run less than him in every competition he takes part.

Redcafe: Messi did nothing for Argentina past group stage, didn't score
Also Redcafe: Robben (3 goals just in GS) did much more for Netherlands than Messi (4 goals just in GS) in the World Cup

Group Stage: Netherlands vs Spain (Van persie MVP), vs Australia (Robben MVP) vs Chile (Robben MVP). Argentina vs Bosnia (Messi MVP) vs Iran (Messi MVP) vs Nigeria (Messi MVP)
R16: Robben (no MVP or goals, nice dive for the pen, tho), Messi (No goals, assist, MVP)
QF: Robben (no MVP, goals or assists), Messi (no MVP, goals or assists)
SF: Robben (no MVP, goals or assists), Messi (no MVP, goals or assists)

"Robben did much more" no, he didn't. "He was poor/average in KO games" no, he wasn't. You're just basing the argument in him not scoring, not the actual games and what he brought to Argentina.

 

[P-Nut]

357 votes each. Not exactly a small sample size to see which is greater. But with United bias in play you'd expect Ronaldo to win it on this site.

As for their big tournament performances of late Ronaldo walks it.

 

[Peyroteo]

Ronaldo scores goals at a marginally higher rate than Messi, whilst playing in a far more advanced position. Messi also contributes more in every other area.

Ronaldo’s been scoring goals at a considerably higher rate than Messi and he actually does it when it matters more often than not

 

[ManUtd1999]

Diego Simeone: “Messi is good but because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers around him. For a normal team, say a German team... Messi or Cristiano? Who do you think they’d choose?”

 

[GifLord]

Holland had a nothing squad compared to Argentina and finished 3rd. Robben did much more for them than Messi for Argentina.

Messi was poor/average in the knock-out games. Is this up for debate now?

He was shocking vs Iceland and Croatia.

There is a simple reason why he struggles outside Barca despite his immense talent: his movement is poor. Only the keepers run less than him in every competition he takes part.

Didn't Robben literally choke vs Spain in the 2010 Final?

 

[Treble]

Didn't Robben literally choke vs Spain in the 2010 Final?

We are talking about 2014, in case you haven't noticed. What happened in 2010 is completely irrelevant.

 

[Treble]

Redcafe: Messi did nothing for Argentina past group stage, didn't score
Also Redcafe: Robben (3 goals just in GS) did much more for Netherlands than Messi (4 goals just in GS) in the World Cup

Group Stage: Netherlands vs Spain (Van persie MVP), vs Australia (Robben MVP) vs Chile (Robben MVP). Argentina vs Bosnia (Messi MVP) vs Iran (Messi MVP) vs Nigeria (Messi MVP)
R16: Robben (no MVP or goals, nice dive for the pen, tho), Messi (No goals, assist, MVP)
QF: Robben (no MVP, goals or assists), Messi (no MVP, goals or assists)
SF: Robben (no MVP, goals or assists), Messi (no MVP, goals or assists)

"Robben did much more" no, he didn't. "He was poor/average in KO games" no, he wasn't. You're just basing the argument in him not scoring, not the actual games and what he brought to Argentina.

Robben was tormenting defences throughout the tournament. He was their only good player after RvP's form disappeared. Messi was Mr Invisible for most of the knock-out games. Choosing him for the best player of the tournament was a joke.

 

[RoadTrip]

When talking about careers overall, you can argue either way.

But in the last few months, or perhaps a year or even a tad longer, there is only one player who has been inspirational beyond just being an exceptional player for his team.

 

[Ishdalar]

Diego Simeone: “Messi is good but because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers around him. For a normal team, say a German team... Messi or Cristiano? Who do you think they’d choose?”

Is Simeone, he'd probably choose Costa before Messi for Atletico.

Hell, I'd pick Ronaldo for any team before Messi for results if I'm unable to surround him with players able of a simple 1-2 in a space of two meters, same way I'd pick Jan Koller before Xavi if I had to sign a player to instantly deliver if I was football director for Pulis' Stoke, that's just natural. Direct way will always be the best way to try and achieve results when you're not flush with quality players or able to develop a decent system.

Robben was tormenting defences throughout the tournament. He was their only good player after RvP's form disappeared. Messi was Mr Invisible for most of the knock-out games. Choosing him for the best player of the tournament was a joke.

Sigh... again

R16: Messi - 8 Key passes, 7 dribbles completed / Robben - 4 Key passes, 7 dribbles completed
QF: Messi - 1 Key passes, 5 Dribbles completed / Robben - 4 Key passes, 8 dribbles completed
SF: Messi - 2 Key passes, 10 Dribbles completed / Robben - 0 Key passes, 4 dribbles completed
Final/3rd spot: Messi - 2 Key passes, 7 Dribbles completed / Robben - 2 Key passes, 5 Dribbles completed.
Total tally: Messi 13 Key passes, 29 Dribbles / Robben 10 Key passes, 24 Dribbles

"One was tormenting defenses, the other was Mr Invisible", totally. And I'm bringing useless stats, because that's the closest way to prove it wasn't like you said without actually going over 720 minutes of football, already saw them 4 years ago, thanks.

 

[RoadTrip]

Don’t think I’ve ever seen a poster with as much bias before.

 

[Ji_Maria]

You start by forgetting he also put 2 on Nigeria, no biggie, just another "anti" forgetting facts.

LOL I actually intentionally left out Nigeria, so someone like you could come running and say "bbbbut he scored against...NIGERIA!!!" lol. Messi, I hope many years from now in his retirement, will remember those important, critical goals he scored in the group stages against Argentina's bitter-rivals, the top-ranked NIGERIA.

By the way, why don't you explain his disappearing act against the ALMIGHTY Switzerland and Belgium, before collapsing in front of real competition in the form of the Netherlands and Germany?

A squad with Romero, Orion, Andujar, Fede Fernandez, Demichelis, Rojo, Basanta, Campagnaro, Gago, Augusto Fernandez, Biglia, 33 y/o Maxi Rodriguez, Ricky Alvarez, Enzo Perez and Palacio... top 3? Between those 15 players they add up 6 titles on European top 4 leagues (shared between Demichelis, 4, and Gago, 2) and 0 Champions League, that's a competitive squad?.

At least 6 of the players on the Argentina 2014 squad would have literally walked-on to MUTD's starting 11.

Martin Demichelis, Pablo Zabaleta, Marcos Rojo, Javier Mascherano, Angel Di Maria, Sergio Aguero, Gonzalo Higuain, Lionel Messi.

Actually that's 8.

And why don't you actually list a squad other than Germany or Spain that had a better team? England featuring Rooney and Welbeck? Lol.

And I don't even want to address your comment regading Di Maria. Di Maria in 2013-2014 was a beast for Real Madrid and was in top form.

 

[Ishdalar]

LOL I actually intentionally left out Nigeria, so someone like you could come running and say "bbbbut he scored against...NIGERIA!!!" lol. Messi, I hope many years from now in his retirement, will remember those important, critical goals he scored in the group stages against Argentina's bitter-rivals, the top-ranked NIGERIA.

By the way, why don't you explain his disappearing act against the ALMIGHTY Switzerland and Belgium, before collapsing in front of real competition in the form of the Netherlands and Germany?



At least 6 of the players on the Argentina 2014 squad would have literally walked-on to MUTD's starting 11.

Martin Demichelis, Pablo Zabaleta, Marcos Rojo, Javier Mascherano, Angel Di Maria, Sergio Aguero, Gonzalo Higuain, Lionel Messi.

Actually that's 8.

And why don't you actually list a squad other than Germany or Spain that had a better team? England featuring Rooney and Welbeck? Lol.

And I don't even want to address your comment regading Di Maria. Di Maria in 2013-2014 was a beast for Real Madrid and was in top form.

MVP vs Switzerland, best rated player vs Netherlands (Fifa gave the MVP to Romero because of the penalties, no qualms with that).

I mean, you literally left out Nigeria so you could call someone out on Messi being the best player 3 games in a row (4 out of 7) in a WC?. Well, for someone who thinks you're invisible if your name doesn't show up in the scorers lists, that seems plausible.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Ronaldo is the better player currently and has the longevity argument now. Messi had a significantly higher peak. Messi has a better club career marginally. Ronaldo has the better international career marginally. I am talking in terms of trophies. Unles Ronaldo wins this world cup or Messi wins a few more CLs in the next few years, this debate will go on and on like Pele and Maradonna with both sides dug in.
But an important point is that for a lot of people Ronaldo wasn't even in the argument 3 years back, that determination to get into the argument is something extraordinary. If Messi doesn't recover from this world cup and turns shit for Barcelona as well then I don't think anyone can argue who is the goat among these two.

 

[Ji_Maria]

MVP vs Switzerland, best rated player vs Netherlands (Fifa gave the MVP to Romero because of the penalties, no qualms with that).

I mean, you literally left out Nigeria so you could call someone out on Messi being the best player 3 games in a row (4 out of 7) in a WC?. Well, for someone who thinks you're invisible if your name doesn't show up in the scorers lists, that seems plausible.

OK, now I'm sure you must be joking. If Messi pulled an "MVP" performance and still Argentina managed to beat Switzerland by only 1 goal, that is pathetic. Also, "best rated" against a far weaker Netherlands yet they had to go to penalties to go through? Come on...the only thing that says is that literally everyone on both sides played like utter garbage (1-0 against Swiss, 0-0 against Netherlands????) and Messi just happened to be less garbage. I'm not a CR7 fanboi either, but his performance against Spain was at least worthy of an MVP and deserving of such recognition. An MVP in a game that ended up 0-0, or barely beating a far weaker opponent 1-0, is really quite sad.

Also, no, I don't think goal scoring is the end-all-be-all. However, the reason why most people consider Messi to be GOAT is because of his goal scoring record. So it is only fair to ask why this amazing, GOAT goal scorer can't score goals at the World Cup (outside against bottom-tier teams).

 

[RobinLFC]

The Messi bashing is getting pretty ridiculous, it's as if a few bad games suddenly wipe out ten years of being the best player in the entire world. It doesn't help his case that Ronaldo has been tearing it up the last few months, but come on.

He's playing in a very, very poor Argentina side - yes, it's his job to lift them to another level but you can't do it all on your own. Let's also not forget that he got to the WC Final four years ago, while Ronaldo crashed out in the group stage finishing behind the fecking USA, getting whalloped 4-0 by Germany in the process. As for being a non-factor in the KO stages four years ago - Ronaldo was pretty much invisible as well in the semis and final of this year's CL and didn't even play in the EC Final, which shows you how good a team Portugal actually are (they held Belgium to a 0-0 draw without too much problems only a few weeks ago without Ronaldo). Then the argument is "you can't be important in every single game", but when it's Messi, it's suddenly unacceptable.

The narrative has shifted way too much for me and every average/poor performance is blown way out of proportion. Ronaldo has certainly narrowed the gap between them over the last few years, but Messi was so superior in the decade before that, '06-'16 or something, that it's still not a debate for me. And people shouldn't act like he had a poor year either, since he was the top scorer in La Liga, Europe, walked the league where Ronaldo's team did nothing for an entire year, and once again won the Copa del Rey. 3 CL's in a row is amazing and won't be repeated anytime soon, but there's too much emphasis on the CL these days. It's the most important club competition no doubt, but I'm sure we'd be reading other views on here if it was Ronaldo who walked the league and won the golden boot, while Barcelona were piss poor in the league but won the CL.

 

[Ji_Maria]

The Messi bashing is getting pretty ridiculous, it's as if a few bad games suddenly wipe out ten years of being the best player in the entire world. It doesn't help his case that Ronaldo has been tearing it up the last few months, but come on.

He's playing in a very, very poor Argentina side

First off, it's not a "few bad games." It's 4 World Cups.

Second off, they played Iceland. And tied. 1-1. Iceland has a population of 334,000 people....

Third off, they played Croatia. And lost. 0-3. Croatia has a population of 4 million...

You could have the worst Argentina side ever, of all time, and that would still be on paper, 100000x better than the best Iceland/Croatia team of all time.

By the way, I don't judge Messi based on this World Cup b/c he's no longer at his peak and he's old so fair play to him. I thought 2014 was really the true test for Messi, given how strong that team was and how Messi was supposed to be at his peak age.

 

[RobinLFC]

First off, it's not a "few bad games." It's 4 World Cups.

Second off, they played Iceland. And tied. 1-1. Iceland has a population of 334,000 people....

Third off, they played Croatia. And lost. 0-3. Croatia has a population of 4 million...

You could have the worst Argentina side ever, of all time, and that would still be on paper, 100000x better than the best Iceland/Croatia team of all time.

Suddenly population matters? Fecking hell what a laughable argument. We, 11 million strong, beat the USA 300 million strong last WC. Croatia is one of the best teams in the tournament, population has feck all to do with anything.

4 World Cups? A Final appearance last year says differently. It's his fault if they lose, but he doesn't get the accolades either if they go all the way? Just shows how biased you actually are.

 

[Treble]

Is Simeone, he'd probably choose Costa before Messi for Atletico.

Hell, I'd pick Ronaldo for any team before Messi for results if I'm unable to surround him with players able of a simple 1-2 in a space of two meters, same way I'd pick Jan Koller before Xavi if I had to sign a player to instantly deliver if I was football director for Pulis' Stoke, that's just natural. Direct way will always be the best way to try and achieve results when you're not flush with quality players or able to develop a decent system.



Sigh... again

R16: Messi - 8 Key passes, 7 dribbles completed / Robben - 4 Key passes, 7 dribbles completed
QF: Messi - 1 Key passes, 5 Dribbles completed / Robben - 4 Key passes, 8 dribbles completed
SF: Messi - 2 Key passes, 10 Dribbles completed / Robben - 0 Key passes, 4 dribbles completed
Final/3rd spot: Messi - 2 Key passes, 7 Dribbles completed / Robben - 2 Key passes, 5 Dribbles completed.
Total tally: Messi 13 Key passes, 29 Dribbles / Robben 10 Key passes, 24 Dribbles

"One was tormenting defenses, the other was Mr Invisible", totally. And I'm bringing useless stats, because that's the closest way to prove it wasn't like you said without actually going over 720 minutes of football, already saw them 4 years ago, thanks.

Source?

 

[Ishdalar]

OK, now I'm sure you must be joking. If Messi pulled an "MVP" performance and still Argentina managed to beat Switzerland by only 1 goal, that is pathetic. Also, "best rated" against a far weaker Netherlands yet they had to go to penalties to go through? Come on...the only thing that says is that literally everyone on both sides played like utter garbage (1-0 against Swiss, 0-0 against Netherlands????) and Messi just happened to be less garbage. I'm not a CR7 fanboi either, but his performance against Spain was at least worthy of an MVP and deserving of such recognition. An MVP in a game that ended up 0-0, or barely beating a far weaker opponent 1-0, is really quite sad.

Also, no, I don't think goal scoring is the end-all-be-all. However, you would expect someone like Messi to actually score goals in international competition against top rated opponents, since the entire argument in favor of Messi = GOAT being his goal scoring record for Barcelona.

How do you explain Messi's goal scoring record for Barca (which is phenomenal) to his failure to score goals in the World Cup (other than dog-bottom teams).

First, MVP means best player of the game, not "great performance, let's record this one and send DVD's so everyone can rejoice on it", but by definition being the best player in a game is incompatible with being invisible, or bad.

Second, the argument for Messi to be the best is not about how much he scored for Barcelona, mostly he was attacked for not scoring as much as Ronaldo, and then he actually was able to outscore him for a while, it's another point in favor for him, not the biggest one.

And third, how do I explain Messi's goal scoring for Barça vs World Cup?. Same way i'd say about Ronaldo having >1 goal per game ratio with Real Madrid, and 0.5 in World Cup (and that's after fixing that stat with 4 in the last 2). Great players, playing for absurdly powerful teams at club level, that get the best talent in the world and make the disparity in stats absurd.

Otherwise, how would you explain Ronaldo scoring 7 in 15 games, Messi 5 in 17 and Villa 9 in 12 at World Cups. Was Villa the better striker of the three?.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Diego Simeone: “Messi is good but because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers around him. For a normal team, say a German team... Messi or Cristiano? Who do you think they’d choose?”

This is something similar to what Fergie said.

“Now don’t get me wrong, Messi is a fantastic player, it’s like he’s wearing slippers when he controls the ball. But here, for me, is the difference. Messi is a Barcelona player.

“But Ronaldo could play for Stockport County and score a hat-trick. He has everything. He can shoot with both feet, head the ball, he’s as brave as a lion, and here’s something else people overlook."

 

[Ji_Maria]

Suddenly population matters? Fecking hell what a laughable argument. We, 11 million strong, beat the USA 300 million strong last WC. Croatia is one of the best teams in the tournament, population has feck all to do with anything.

4 World Cups? A Final appearance last year says differently. It's his fault if they lose, but he doesn't get the accolades either if they go all the way? Just shows how biased you actually are.

Population does in fact matter and there have been numerous serious, professional studies on this.

"The correlation between population and World Cup success is stronger, with a statistically significant and positive relationship."

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/issues/ec...-watch-june-2014-how-to-win-the-world-cup.pdf

http://www.dnb-nederland.nl/data/sitemanagement/media/Nieuws/Econometrics_WorldCup(1).pdf

Also, you are not addressing my fundamental question.

Messi is considered GOAT largely because of his goal scoring ability for Barcelona. So I am judging him based on that same exact criteria. Where are his goals against the Netherlands and Germany? Why can we score against Real Madrid, but can't somehow manage a single WC goal against a top-ranked team?