There are many details to analyze about their numbers in the past, but in the present, one has showed his face for the national team and the other has not done anything. The bad moment of Argentina can´t excuse his 2 dull games.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Hahahahaha a group stage game is best in World Cup history?! Come on man, Ronaldo got a soft penalty and a massive mistake from the keeper to go with a nice free kick
Messi was fantastic in the group stage but like Ronaldo neither have looked great in knockout WC rounds butessi has definitely looked better
How dare him, doing nothing from his starting positions. You don't ask for him to do something special, more like legendary if you want him to score or assist from these situations (favourite moment, Messi walks to Otamendi because he already doesn't trust his passes, tries to break the first defensive line with a pass, two players fail to control it
)Doesn't matter, because he has great teammates, cross specialists like Higuain or Acuña, the Argentine Beckham
Decision making shines too with Paulo Dybala, do you pass back to the best player in the world, or put an awful cross for a mediocre header vs 3 Croatian towers?"
Or the video that sums up being Messi in Argentina, control a rock thrown at you in your own half, get two Croatian players to defend you 50 meters away from their goal, do a textbook opening to the wing, and see your two wing players unable to do a textbook 1-2 (Acuña gets fouled after he does his "pass"
Really, you guys have been talking about the level of this Argentina squad, have you actually watched a single minute of Argentina in this World Cup? Do you put 0 merit in a single guy having to dribble past at least 2 players if he wants a chance to try and get anything done for his team?
A) football is more than stats
B) Messi's stats doesnt count because the goals and assists were vs Bosnia so why Ronaldo's hattrick coming from a penalty and a GK's mistake count by your logic? Also, do we count Ronaldo's goals in 2016 vs the mighty Hungary that got humiliated by Poland or vs the two player team, a.k.a Wales, when one of them was even missing?
How dare him, doing nothing from his starting positions. You don't ask for him to do something special, more like legendary if you want him to score or assist from these situations (favourite moment, Messi walks to Otamendi because he already doesn't trust his passes, tries to break the first defensive line with a pass, two players fail to control it
Doesn't matter, because he has great teammates, cross specialists like Higuain or Acuña, the Argentine Beckham
Decision making shines too with Paulo Dybala, do you pass back to the best player in the world, or put an awful cross for a mediocre header vs 3 Croatian towers?"
Or the video that sums up being Messi in Argentina, control a rock thrown at you in your own half, get two Croatian players to defend you 50 meters away from their goal, do a textbook opening to the wing, and see your two wing players unable to do a textbook 1-2 (Acuña gets fouled after he does his "pass"
Really, you guys have been talking about the level of this Argentina squad, have you actually watched a single minute of Argentina in this World Cup? Do you put 0 merit in a single guy having to dribble past at least 2 players if he wants a chance to try and get anything done for his team?
Like I said...
We even get videos about it..
Tough to make great decisions to create chances when the best finisher in the team doesn't move, tough to make accurate crosses when there's noone to aim at in the box... tough to make natural decisions when the whole system of the freaking team is built to pass the ball to one player who is obviously going to get man marked by the opposition. Now the likes of Dybala and Higuain are shit... Come on. Same shit all year long with Messi singlehandedly carrying Barcelona to a double, if he carried those by himself then why can't he do it now?
Now apparently Rakitic is a brilliant midfielder... during the year he wasn't fit enough to play next to Messi. Dybala and Higuain are just leading the line for freaking Juventus and they still aren't good enough for Messi. Well, what the hell is good enough for Messi other than the greatest team to have ever played the sport?
Mental
Van der Sar, Casillas, Evra, Marcelo, Carvajal, Vidic, Carvalho, Pepe, Ramos, Ferdinand, Scholes, Keane, Carrick, Xabi Alonso, Kroos, Modric, Deco, Giggs, Isco, James, Di Maria, Bale, Ozil, Van Nistelrooy, Benzema, Rooney and Figo, all of them right now are crying in a psyquiatric clinic.
Just how absurdly loaded is this list? and not everyone shows up there!. And I'm not comparing, but to say Messi has his brilliant teammates eat the blame, when people in this same post, today, have talked about how Ronaldo* didn't won before "because of his teams" is bollocks.
I mean, just look at those defenders, is that a list of teammates or the list of hall of fame defenders in the 21st century?. It only lacks Puyol, Chiellini, Terry and a couple more.
Mental
Van der Sar, Casillas, Evra, Marcelo, Carvajal, Vidic, Carvalho, Pepe, Ramos, Ferdinand, Scholes, Keane, Carrick, Xabi Alonso, Kroos, Modric, Deco, Giggs, Isco, James, Di Maria, Bale, Ozil, Van Nistelrooy, Benzema, Rooney and Figo, all of them right now are crying in a psyquiatric clinic.
Just how absurdly loaded is this list? and not everyone shows up there!. And I'm not comparing, but to say Messi has his brilliant teammates eat the blame, when people in this same post, today, have talked about how he didn't won before "because of his teams" is bollocks.
I mean, just look at those defenders, is that a list of teammates or the list of hall of fame defenders in the 21st century?. It only lacks Puyol, Chiellini, Terry and a couple more.
Says it all when that list is nowhere near as good as the teammates Messi's had. Neymar, Suarez, Xavi, Iniesta, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho and Henry might all be in the top 10 players of the freaking century. Ronaldo's had incredible teammates, Messi's had better teammates than anyone in football history.
Here is Messi also missing Argies' next best chance in the game -
The narrative of Higauain costing Messi a WC is embrassing. It was not even a case of Messi creating that chance for him. It came from a defensive mistake. Messi still could have created or scored another goal himself after the same. And please don't give me the BS about the Argentina side being poor etc. It set up exactly as 86 one was for Maradona. A solid defensive unit with the best player given the freedom and the burden to be the creative fulcrum and win them games. The actual GOAT delivered.
You're twisting things slightly here. Ronaldinho left Barca in 08, right when Messi was hitting his prime. Henry was (to an extent) past his prime by the time he went to Barca, while Zlatan only played with him for a season and didn't really fit into the team alongside him. The rest, yeah, fair enough, but both players have played in phenomenal teams.
Neymar or Rooney, Suarez or Van Nistelrooy, Xavi or Kroos, Iniesta or Modric, Ibrahimovic or Bale, yeah, what a great difference, specially if you look at the moments they played with in their careers, Henry wasn't THE Henry, Ibra was a bust, only examples, I know that workd for Ronaldo too (Keane wasn't the best Keane already)
For the over-exaggeration in "better teammates than anyone", you know a guy named Raul played with Casillas, Neuer,, Marcelo, Roberto Carlos, Ramos, Puyol, Cannavaro, Hierro, Pepe, Makelele, Xabi Alonso, Gravesen, Xavi, Iniesta, Figo, Beckham, Zidane, Laudrup, Robben, Kaka, Van Nistelrooy, Owen, Fernando Torres, David villa, Cristiano, Ronaldo (yes, a comma there)...?
There is no system. That's the reason why Messi drops deep to receive the ball and starts things on his own. Because otherwise there would be zero attacking play. Do you think he wants to play like that? Going into dribbles all the time in areas 50 meters away from the opponents goal? Come on. He plays like he plays because Argentina is fecked without him. I'm sure he would love to give the midfield responsibility to someone else and play further up front like in his most successful years. But he simply can't.
And yes, they are that bad, simple as that. You could literally see how his team mates made mistakes after mistakes. It is really odd how you wind up your arguments in order to make Messi look bad. I mean, he was literally the only player that looked like he could create anything while his team mates screwed up time and time again. And according to you, who is to blame? Messi of course, because he makes everyone around him shit. As if Messi is to blame for bad touches and wrong decision making of his team mates. Or that they can't play a pass of more than two meters for their lives as soon as they get in the Argentinian shirt. Just look what some of them did today. This was slap stick at best.
Fecking Gravesen? Gravesen? Who the hell includes Gravesen?
Second best chance was this one
I'm sorry, did Maradona score in the final? AFAIK, three players from Argentina scored vs West Germany, none of them was Maradona.
Have to laugh at the standards you guys use to decide who delivers or doesn't, Maradona "delivering" in 1986
4:28, Messi "not delivering" in 2014
What decides if Messi or Maradona delivered in their games was Burruchaga scoring vs Palacio being donkey?. What's the difference between Diego teammates scoring 3 times in a final, but Leo's missing two clear cut chances regarding Maradona and Messi skill?.
Before 2016 this wasn't even a debate. After 2016 this still isn't a debate. We are talking about different player before and after 2016.
He's their best player. Obviously if you judge them all by the same standards then he's the last player you'd blame but he is one of the greatest players ever so that's why I don't treat them as equals. All year long has been about Messi singlehandedly carrying Barcelona to a double... and now we get these excuses as if he's just someone else.
There is a system for this Argentina team and it's completely centered around Messi, Dybala doesn't even get in the team because of it. It's a shit system though, that's for sure and what I'm saying now is what I've been writing here for over a year by the way.
Messi has to drop deep often to get the ball because he doesn't have a world class midfield that can find him between the lines all alone. Welcome to the life of 99.9% of attacking players. You can't just walk in the middle of the pitch while being unmarked and then expect your midfielders to somehow be able to find you so you can run at defenders. His teammates weren't even that bad compared to him, it was an even game by half time. Ronaldo's teammates are worse and Portugal are in a much more comfortbale position. Why is that?
As good of a player Messi is at the moment he's a tumor for that Argentina team, I'm not sure you can even call them a team at this point. They're going to immensely miss his talent but once he leaves they're going to look like a team and if he has any sense of duty then it won't take long for that to happen.
You can also consider the Brazilian Ronaldo.
Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Figo, Beckham, Owen, Roberto Carlos, Lucio, Kaka, Cafu, Romario, Hierro, Raul, van Nistelrooy, Makelele, Seedorf, Pirlo, Nesta, Gattuso, Maldini, Zanetti, Seedorf, Ibrahimovic, Thiago Silva and I'm sure I forgot many from his Inter and Barcelona days.
Or Ronaldinho
Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Henry, Messi, Eto'o, Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Dani Alves, Maicon, Kaka, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Ibrahimovic, Maldini, Nesta, Thiago Silva, Deco, Seedorf, Gattuso, Pirlo
Or Ibrahimovic
Larsson, Pirlo, Sneijder, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Pato, Seedorf, Maldini, Nesta, Thiago Silva, Cavani, Di Maria, Pogba, Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Busquets, Yaya, Henry, Puyol, Pique, Dani Alves, Gattuso, Maicon, Lucio, Samuel,
You can make so many cases for so many players. I think what gets not enough attention in these discussions is how Messi always comes out on top of it, no matter with which players he played together. He dwarfed more or less anyone around him and nobody even came close to his class altough they looked like absolute world beaters and at least among the top 10 throughout at least some points during their careers (e.g. Ibrahimovic, Iniesta, Sanchez, Henry, Eto'o, Xavi, Aguero, ...).
What is this bollocks then? Messi did feck all during that Champions League win. He played 115 minutes during the two legs of the round of 16, scored zero goals and then didn't play another game for the rest of the tournament. You're making it sound as if he descended from the heavens and drove Barcelona to a historic win.
Barcelona had a world class team spearheaded by Ronaldinho and Eto'o. That's why they won that Champions League. Messi had next to nothing to do with it.
I think that is the most embarrassing part for these Messi fans that are arguing even right now Messi is performing at Ronaldo's level. I mean you can argue who has overall had the better career or who is more talented. Like I have always said, I pick Ronaldo but if you say Messi is better your opinion is a perfectly valid one but to say right now, last few months, Messi has been level with Ronaldo? Give me a break.
A spearhead that lasted what, a season, two seasons?.
I'm answering to the comparison "Ronaldo signed for a sad, losing team" vs "Messi started for Barcelona in their golden era". Real were close to the level of Barcelona before Ronaldo, just very unlucky in some of their UCL crosses, and Messi was there at the start of our golden era, and was the one who cemented it, being the best player in the treble season and the next 3 UCL titles. Beyond the debate about his contribution in the 2006 leg vs Chelsea, he didn't jump on a glory train, he helped build it.
I can't believe I now have to argue that Diego 1986 was a better performance than Messi 2014
I would leave you guys to this insane debate. For the record, I think Messi is best player of his generation too but I just can't understand the need for execuses to cover his bad performances at any stage. The cult surrounding both players is unhealthy for the supporters of both.
Welcome to the life of 99.9% of attacking players? This is not the life of 99.9% of attacking players, not by any means. Definitely not in top sides. And that's not even considering that Messi gets marked like no other player in the game.
And no, there is no system. If you think that anyone wants that Messi gets the ball at the half way line with 7-8 team mates and 11 opponents between him and the opposition goal then I can't help you but this is definitely not on purpose. He drops that deep out of desperation. You could clearly see in the first half today that he didn't do it. But after the first goal he simply had to because it didn't work without him and his team mates were completely overstrained by the Croatian pressing. The Caballero mistake was no surprise since it was the fifth or sixth situation like that.
Portugal at least has a collective approach and the team they field is better than the team that Argentina fielded today. And yes, he is their best player but what do you expact of such a footballer if he gets zero balls in the first half and his team is struggling? You expect him to take matters in his own hands and that's what he did.
I agree however that Messi's positional game could use more discipline since Guardiola departed. If he plays on the right then he has to stay there and not drift inside in a possession oriented system (and leave the wing blank). However, we are far, far away from that being the primary problem concerning Argentina. We are talking about abysmal decision making, misplaced passes over five meters, completely idiotic dribblings, gigantic spaces in the midfield (when modric scored the second goal), chaotic runs and so on. Whereever Messi positions himself and even if this is not good for the team in general, this is no excuse for the mistakes his team mates committed.
Doesn't matter how long it lasted. It was a team of Champions League winning quality already before Messi was a regular, and once Ronaldinho disappeared Henry was brought in, and Xavi and Iniesta also started blossoming as a partnership after that 2006 win.
There's no way to argue that Messi turned a team of down-on-their-luck journeymen into world beaters. That Barca team was going places with or without Messi. The fact that Spain won three international titles on the trot with a spine almost exclusively made up of Barca players proves that. Of course, with Messi that team went from being great to being possibly the greatest ever.
I said Ronaldo was poor by his standards and yes he was pretty much garbage in 10 and 14, like Messi in 18. Messi was decent in 10 but didn't hit his heights like Ronaldo in 6 and in defence of both of them they were both young and good for their age but not really stars of the tournament as a whole.
Also with regards that Portugal team in 06 thinking back he wasn't your best player and not nearly. Figo was far better and made the team of the tournie if I'm not mistaken. Edit: Just checked and their were 4 Portugal players in the squad of the tournament, Figo, Maniche, Ricardo Carvalho and Ricardo... all said to have had a better world cup than Ronaldo, so at best he was the 5th best player for the competitions 4th best team.
Pretty sure I said their records in big games were similar and also Messi has scored against no one in the WC. Using the argument of CL finals one can argue Messi's been more consistent in the biggest games because the CL final is the biggest game Ronaldo has played. He hasn't played an international tournie or WC final, Messi has played a few and being one of the best players. Your idea Ronaldo can do no wrong is simply untrue, this is the first world cup where we're seeing the best of Ronnie and fair play to him at his age. In fact despite being one of the best two players in the world, he was never selected in a WC team of the tournie in 3 attempts, Messi made the team in 2014 and despite not deserving best player deserved to be on the team.
Listing goals from the European Champs is a bit unfair as Messi literally only has Brazil and Chile as decent opposition in the Copa and gets to play against the best far less often in and Argentina shirt, thats why I used the WC.
Quick question, if as is possible Iraq were to turn you over (you said its possible yourself) and Portugal go out, and Argentina fluke through the group (lets say Iceland draw both their games) with a poxy deflection off Messi's arse.
Then would we be branding Ronnie a failure? Because despite the hattrick v Spain and winner v Morocco he'll have failed in the most important game of the tournie and Messi a success because he'll yet again have dragged Argentina through at squeaky bum time despite being shite in the first 2 games?
While Argentina will deserve to go out (Messi too because Aguero's literally been the Argies only half competent player) if they do and you guys won't if Iran turn you over (you are still the 2nd best team in that group), that will turn this world cup on its head and Messi will have dragged Argentina further than Ronaldo Portugal at the WC.
Also for what its worth I said either in this thread or another one on the two of them, I fully believe if Messi doesn't win another CL (where he is the main man) and an International Tourney, I believe Ronaldo will be remembered as the greater player, I just find the argument that one turns up in big games and one doesn't to be a complete fabrication (they both do and both don't) pulled from people arses and Ronaldo fans seem to be worse for this than vice versa, (3 years ago, it would probably be Messi fans) had I read Messi fans saying Ronnie doesn't turn up in big games I'd have the same argument in reverse. This season aside where Messi hasn't turned up for the WC (yet?) or in the later stages of the CL, but again, Ronnie didn't turn up for the first half of the season and that was a huge part in Barca strolling to the title.
The truth is had Higuain taken a chance in the WC final or the Copa finals... or anyone other than Messi score a pen in those shootouts, this wouldn't even be a debate (not whose better but whether or not Messi is a failure at international level). Argentina's failings can't be levelled at Messi nor can Portugals at Ronaldo. But we can call them both out on underperforming and they both have at the WC, Messi having a good 2014 but not deserving PotT and Ronaldo thus far at this one.
Ronaldo brought Portugal to a final, Messi brought Argentina to 4 finals (admittedly in a competition thats easier to win than the Euro's), Ronaldo also to his credit was excellent at Euro 2004 but not quite the main man for Portugal back then, at least not like he is now. The difference between a Lloris howler and a Claudio Bravo miracle (of all things) is what seperates them both at International level.
Why on earth is that such a ridiculous thing to say? I prefer Messi in general because I think playmaking, dribbling, passing, creating and so on contribute much more to a teams success. I think that focussing on goals is extremely superficial and that team accomplishments don't reflect individual quality. So why should I think that Ronaldo has had the better last few months? Because he scored and won the CL? What exactly has he done that would've made me think he's been better in this time frame? I didn't see any playmaking, dribbling or creation, and if there were glimpses of it then certainly not on Messi's level, and the latter still scores like few other players in the game - and he scores much more difficult goals with far more individual brillance involved (few exceptions like Ronaldo's overhead kick aside). The late Ronaldo has adapted his game so much that this comparison doesn't even make sense anymore. It would be far more reasonable to compare Ronaldo to players like Lewandowski, Kane, Aguero etc. (comparisons he all comfortably wins) and Messi to Neymar, Hazard, Modric, Reus, Griezmann, Isco etc. who actually try to create opportunities for their teams.
To me Ronaldo's recent trophies are primarily down to his team improving drastically. He's been a worse player than five or six years ago but he wins far more titles because he finally has the team he deserves. In the same way, Messi was really lucky to have had probably the best (yet a little bit short lived) team in history in his early years. He's now in the situation Ronaldo's been in during his first four or five years at Madrid: He's brillant but his team doesn't keep up with him.
Ah the old "but can Ronaldo pass?" debate to claim Messi is better. Love it. Yeah let's ignore victories and goals and trophies. Missing penalties is good because you can pass.
Passing is the fabric of the game.
scoring goals is the point of the game.
Ronaldo scores goals at a marginally higher rate than Messi, whilst playing in a far more advanced position. Messi also contributes more in every other area.
Done.
Ronaldo's drive and sheer determination >>>>
You must be delusional to believe this. The season before Ronaldo joined Madrid they were being THUMPED by Liverpool in the CL home & away whilst being humiliated by large scorelines in El Clasico. Barca at the same time were playing their best ever football and winning the treble. There were a number of clubs better than Madrid before Ronaldo moved there including the team he left behind while Messi's team were the undisputed top dog in Europe. Ronaldo joined at the beginning of a project which saw some of the biggest transfers in football history completed in one window.
Choose one aspect of the debate. First you passing matters more then I say goals do and you bring up Messi's goals. Secondly, you realize the poster I responded is talking about the last few games/few months only.
How can someone say Messi has been better in the last few months? Delusion.
Higuain's goals have dragged Argentina to many finals in the first place. Always love how people forget that. Also... why couldn't Messi score his penalty? The fact that he keeps buckling under pressure is not a coincidence.
The difference is simple. Ronaldo has carried his team to success and Messi hasn't. Now you can write walls upon walls of text on why this has happened but the fact remains that Messi has failed internationally.
The lengths people are going to downplay the ability of Messi's teammates is truly incredible! 
The lengths people are going to downplay the ability of Messi's teammates is truly incredible!
Yep.
It’s no competition which nation has better strikers.
Aguero, Dybala, Icardi and Higuain. Internationally that’s the best strike force.
Ronaldo has Silva, Eder and Guedes. It’s not even a contest.
In the last few months ronaldo has been better. I still think Messi is the better overal player but the past few months has been Ronaldo (CL semi finals and final not withstanding)
But Messi took his team to 3 finals, Ronaldo lost to a poor Greece team in 2004 and barely played in 2016 euro where Eder was the hero in the final.
If you think Messi is overall better then that's fair. I think Ronaldo is better but I won't say you are wrong since many pros agree with you and Messi may well be better but you can't say I am wrong either for my opinion.
Ronaldo has weaknesses but so does Messi and you need to accept those. There is no shame in accepting that.
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