Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[shamans]

Without Bale, Benzema, Ramos and Eder goals, or Modric/Marcelo/Pepe performances, Real Madrid and Portugal would have gone NOWHERE too. Team sport much?.

The fact that other players can eventually do something good for Argentina takes away that Messi was the one leading them all this time? or that Argentina hasn't really fielded more than 2 silk-style players in their lineups?. Or what are you saying, that Higuain is the style of player Leo would like to have at Barcelona?.

Team mates matter. Team mates helped Ronaldo, and that doesn't discredit him just like Messi is still one of the GOAT despite having Xavi and Iniesta by his side.

What you can't say is Messi has suffered because of his teammates because if you are going to go through that route, historically Messi has always had better teammates than Madrid and Portugal.

 

[shamans]

Maybe. But the penalty wouldn't have even come to existence since Ronaldo is not capable of playing the pass that lead to it. And guess whose pass it was?

Yeah it's not like Ronaldo won a penalty against a much stronger team? The mental gymnastics you are willing to do ...

 

[Peyroteo]

So I said this:

Which is exactly what I said that I'd said. And I stand by that opinion.

I'm still waiting for you to have the maturity to acknowledge this, and apologise.

You said Bale was a better player than Ronaldo... it's what I said and there's proof of that in your own post for people with two eyes and a functioning brain.

I won't apolgize for your inability to read or for your increasingly stupider posts. Have a good day and let's leave it at that because this is actually painful.

 

[MrEleson]

If Ronaldo was playing in this team, he would do exactly what Aguero did; barely touch the ball (Aguero touched it 7 times in the first-half against Croatia). In fact, they wouldn't even be in the World Cup because he would never have been able to do what Messi did against Ecuador.

Except he plays in just as bad a team? So I really don't understand the Aguero comparisons. Do you really think Aguero could have done what Ronaldo did against Spain even at his best?

Also, have you been living under a rock? Ronaldo has had so many games for Portugal just as good or even better than Messi's performance against Ecuador. His game against Netherlands Euro 2012 or his iconic hat-trick against Sweden in a must win match to qualify for the World Cup?

 

[shamans]

You are kidding me right now, aren't you? So all that he has contributed in this game (countless dribbles, opening passes, chances created etc.) is worthless and should be ignored because he missed one penalty?
If his team mates had played on the same level as him he could've missed ten penalties and they still would've won.

I somehow feel many people in here have completely different views on football and never played it themselves. It is really mindblowing.

If he had scored the penalty Argentina would have won. Simple as that. His contributions are not useless but in this case we are discussing Messi vs Ronaldo and if the bar is Ronaldo i.e leading his team on his own against Spain, Messi is going to get some stick for not being able to turn over the might Iceland with some amazing attacking players by his side

 

[Peyroteo]

You are kidding me right now, aren't you? So all that he has contributed in this game (countless dribbles, opening passes, chances created etc.) is worthless and should be ignored because he missed one penalty?
If his team mates had played on the same level as him he could've missed ten penalties and they still would've won.

I somehow feel many people in here have completely different views on football and never played it themselves. It is really mindblowing.

If Ronaldo yesterday had played a few more 'opening passes' and made a couple of pointless dribbles but missed the header for the goal you'd have rated his performance higher. And we wouldn't have won.

Let's please stop pretending Messi has been great and he just hasn't scored... he hasn't done anything special, it's actually been the opposite.

 

[shamans]

What I find funny is for Ronaldo, there was just one Cal. For Messi, we are seeing multiple Cal likes profiles on here with all sorts of mental gymnastics to prove he is having a world cup as good as Ronaldo

 

[MrEleson]

Sir Alex's statement rings more an more true this tournament:

"But there is a difference between Messi and Ronaldo and I'll tell you what it is. I think Messi is a Barcelona player but Ronaldo could be playing for Stockport County and he would score a hat-trick."

 

[simonhch]

It would be a delight if this thread could be wiped off the face of the earth. Is there a more boring debate than Messi vs Ronaldo?

 

[shamans]

If Ronaldo yesterday had played a few more 'opening passes' and made a couple of pointless dribbles but missed the header for the goal you'd have rated his performance higher. And we wouldn't have won.

Let's please stop pretending Messi has been great and he just hasn't scored... he hasn't done anything special, it's actually been the opposite.

Knowing some on here, I genuinely believe if Ronaldo had done a few of his early 20's style step overs and tricks some of these Messi fans would think he is better. Let's not forget this is the same crowd that a few years ago thought Ronaldo was behind Griezman and Neymar...

 

[shamans]

It would be a delight if this thread could be wiped off the face of the earth. Is there a more boring debate than Messi vs Ronaldo?

Two of the greatest players of all time playing during the same era. How is it boring?

 

[led_scholes]

Revisionism at his peak. Messi is a better player than Ronaldo because the level he achieved is better than Ronaldo's. Messi of 2008-2012 and then 2013-2015 was a force of higher power.

Judge Messi from this tournament. Ok. Judge also Ronaldo from the tournaments of 2010, 2012 and 2014. His best tournament, 2016, was against the mighty Hungary who got destroyed went they faced the first decent team i.e. Poland. He didnt even play in the final. Or why dont we judge Ronaldo from the CL finals where Bale surpassed him in all of them? Ronaldo is an amazing player, but the terror that Messi created in defenders is something that we havent seen since the phenomenon. And he did that for 6-7 years..

 

[carvajal]

An audio of Simeone has been leaked talking to el mono Burgos(second coach). It is about the Argentine national team, about the anarchy of the team, and the bad approach of the coach. He criticizes among other things the choice of the goalkeeper.
Later he says that someone has to fight blabla and "Messi is very good because he is surrounded by extraordinary players ... and the question I ask you, if you had to choose between Messi and Ronaldo for a normal team, who would you choose? "

 

[simonhch]

Two of the greatest players of all time playing during the same era. How is it boring?

The endless debate of fanboys about who is better is the dull part. Not the players, who are both fantastic. I can't imagine grown adults particularly caring which one might be subjectively better. It's just pointless. And this laborious narrative has spread to the mainstream media who make everything about Leo and Cristiano. It's nauseating, and in punditry is often discussed at the expense of insightful tactical analysis of team performances.

 

[matherto]

The endless debate of fanboys about who is better is the dull part. Not the players, who are both fantastic. I can't imagine grown adults particularly caring which one might be subjectively better. It's just pointless. And this laborious narrative has spread to the mainstream media who make everything about Leo and Cristiano. It's nauseating, and in punditry is often discussed at the expense of insightful tactical analysis of team performances.

Humans in being tribal shocker.

 

[wub1234]

I won't apolgize for your inability to read or for your increasingly stupider posts. Have a good day and let's leave it at that because this is actually painful.

Painful for you perhaps. Not painful for me.

As I've explained numerous times, you took something that I said out of context. I have provided the context, which anyone can read here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-v-ronaldo.400526/page-262#post-22589894

Bale would produce as good, or possibly better, performances and results than Ronaldo if he was selected regularly, as he has done so when Ronaldo was rested. 21 goals in 39 appearances from the bench. If Bale was indulged to the degree that Ronaldo is, played every game, was allowed to take every free-kick, virtually every set-piece was aimed at him, he sulked every time someone else scored a goal or shot instead of passing to him, then I'm confident Bale would score as many as Ronaldo.

Except that Bale wouldn't do some of those things because he's a more mature human being.

BTW don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that over his career as a whole Bale is as good as Ronaldo. Obviously this is not the case, Ronaldo has been the second best player in the world over the last ten years. As it stands now, he is at least as good as Ronaldo, probably better, and certainly younger and a better long-term prospect.

If I wanted to then I could pick one line out:

I'm not saying that over his career as a whole Bale is as good as Ronaldo. Obviously this is not the case, Ronaldo has been the second best player in the world over the last ten years.

And state that I never said Bale had played, or could play, at the same level as Ronaldo. That's called quoting something out of context.

What I said was that Ronaldo has been a better player than Bale, but Bale is at the same level as him now, is the better long-term prospect, and would do as well as Ronaldo is he was indulged to the same degree by Real Madrid. I stand by this opinion.

To back this up, firstly Bale was much better than Ronaldo at Euro 2016 when similarly indulged by Wales, secondly, his performance in the CL final in which Ronaldo did nothing should surely indicate that there is little between the two players if they are given the same opportunity, and thirdly whenever Bale has come into the Real Madrid team this season, for example when Ronaldo has been rested, he has done equally well. For example, Real rested Ronaldo when they played Las Palmas away in March, and Bale came in and scored two, and they won 3-0. Didn't miss Ronaldo in the slightest. Compare that to Barcelona when they leave Messi out.

Over their careers as a whole obviously Ronaldo has been the better player, that's not in doubt, Ronaldo has been the second best player in the world for quite some time, and is the second best player of his generation. At this point in time, a fully fit Bale would perform, and has performed, as well as Ronaldo in the Real Madrid team when asked to play the same role.

 

[shamans]

The endless debate of fanboys about who is better is the dull part. Not the players, who are both fantastic. I can't imagine grown adults particularly caring which one might be subjectively better. It's just pointless. And this laborious narrative has spread to the mainstream media who make everything about Leo and Cristiano. It's nauseating, and in punditry is often discussed at the expense of insightful tactical analysis of team performances.

I actually enjoy that though. It adds another layer to El Classico and another thing to discuss during the world cup. It's just arguing for the sake of arguing. At the end of the day anyone that thinks one is the GOAT wont actually change their mind and I know that

 

[matherto]

Let's please stop pretending Messi has been great and he just hasn't scored... he hasn't done anything special, it's actually been the opposite.

Exactly, that was 2010.

Compare his 2010 tournament to currently.

 

[Ishdalar]

Team mates matter. Team mates helped Ronaldo, and that doesn't discredit him just like Messi is still one of the GOAT despite having Xavi and Iniesta by his side.

What you can't say is Messi has suffered because of his teammates because if you are going to go through that route, historically Messi has always had better teammates than Madrid and Portugal.

Blatant lie, at least in the present.

Barcelona, just this season we had Suarez, Deulofeu, Alcacer, Denis, Iniesta, Dembele, Rakitic and Paulinho. All of them except Suarez are inferior to any attacking option in Real Madrid who have Bale, Benzema, Isco, Asensio, Vazquez, Modric and Kroos, in the past I already said it, beyond Neymar and Suarez Barcelona were barren of world class quality (Arda, Denis and Gomes, Rakitic and Iniesta were already inferior players to Kroos/Modric in the last 3 seasons), madrid had Isco, James, Asension and Morata in the bench.

Portugal and Argentina, in their starter lineup who's better than his Portugal counterpart? Higuain/Agüero to any Portuguese option (shame they're exclusive, and will only take one spot in the team), Di Maria? He didn't even play today, Dybala? 20 minutes this tournament.

 

[shamans]

Blatant lie, at least in the present.

Barcelona, just this season we had Suarez, Deulofeu, Alcacer, Denis, Iniesta, Dembele, Rakitic and Paulinho. All of them except Suarez are inferior to any attacking option in Real Madrid who have Bale, Benzema, Isco, Asensio, Vazquez, Modric and Kroos, in the past I already said it, beyond Neymar and Suarez Barcelona were barren of world class quality (Arda, Denis and Gomes, Rakitic and Iniesta were already inferior players to Kroos/Modric in the last 3 seasons), madrid had Isco, James, Asension and Morata in the bench.

Portugal and Argentina, in their starter lineup who's better than his Portugal counterpart? Higuain/Agüero to any Portuguese option (shame they're exclusive, and will only take one spot in the team), Di Maria? He didn't even play today, Dybala? 20 minutes this tournament.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night buddy. Poor Messi. life sucks partnering up with Aguero and having Xavi and Iniesta feed you balls for your most successful years.

 

[Zehner]

If he had scored the penalty Argentina would have won. Simple as that. His contributions are not useless but in this case we are discussing Messi vs Ronaldo and if the bar is Ronaldo i.e leading his team on his own against Spain, Messi is going to get some stick for not being able to turn over the might Iceland with some amazing attacking players by his side

Simple is the key word because that's what your analysis is. Your arguments are superficial. The penalty you speak of wouldn't have happened without Messi playing a brillant pass into the box. Football consists of more than just the decisive moments. In fact, they make up very small parts of a game.

If Ronaldo yesterday had played a few more 'opening passes' and made a couple of pointless dribbles but missed the header for the goal you'd have rated his performance higher. And we wouldn't have won.

Let's please stop pretending Messi has been great and he just hasn't scored... he hasn't done anything special, it's actually been the opposite.

And if the other players had played fewer opening passes and hadn't made "pointless dribbles"and isntead waited for the balls to fly in the box then Ronaldo wouldn't have scored either. That's what I'm talking about when I speak of responsibility. Messi plays a different role for Argentina than Ronaldo for Portugal. He initiates attacks and as you've seen today, if he doesn't do it, there is noone else for it.

Besides that, shall I embed the video again? You won't find another player doing what Messi did against Iceland, so yeah, it is special by any other player's standards (including Ronaldo's). You praised Ronaldo for his all around game against Spain (and rightly so, he was pretty good) and can't even get yourself to acknowledge that Messi contributed much against Iceland? If that isn't contributing much than Ronaldo certainly didn't contribute much against Spain either, apart from his goals.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi has had better teammates than anyone in football history and at the same time he has more people blaming his teammates for his faults than anyone in football history.

 

[Peyroteo]

And if the other players had played fewer opening passes and hadn't made "pointless dribbles"and isntead waited for the balls to fly in the box then Ronaldo wouldn't have scored either. That's what I'm talking about when I speak of responsibility. Messi plays a different role for Argentina than Ronaldo for Portugal. He initiates attacks and as you've seen today, if he doesn't do it, there is noone else for it.

They didn't, it was a corner. Any half decent team can get the ball forward and put a few crosses in, it's not that hard.

Ronaldo gets plenty of shit for not being able to do things Messi's better at, why shouldn't the opposite be true too? Why do you excuse Messi by saying 'it's not his role' but you don't do the same for Ronaldo?

A bit unrelated but this World Cup will hurt Messi even more because the narrative for the season had been that he singlehandedly carried Barcelona to a double... now I think everyone can see that isn't true.

 

[matherto]

Interestingly this is the only WC Ronaldo has turned up for, 3 goals combined in his last 3. 2014 was the only WC Messi turned up in. Both have shit the bed at 3/4 World Cups, though Messi had a great team in 2014 in his only good one.

He was very good in 2006 but wasn't the goal threat he is now. Completely different player.

 

[montpelier]

I was hoping that the poll would finally settle this, .

 

[RedRonaldo]

Apparently the poll has been closed to save Messi face!

 

[Ji_Maria]

Revisionism at his peak. Messi is a better player than Ronaldo because the level he achieved is better than Ronaldo's. Messi of 2008-2012 and then 2013-2015 was a force of higher power.

Judge Messi from this tournament. Ok. Judge also Ronaldo from the tournaments of 2010, 2012 and 2014. His best tournament, 2016, was against the mighty Hungary who got destroyed went they faced the first decent team i.e. Poland. He didnt even play in the final. Or why dont we judge Ronaldo from the CL finals where Bale surpassed him in all of them? Ronaldo is an amazing player, but the terror that Messi created in defenders is something that we havent seen since the phenomenon. And he did that for 6-7 years..

What are you on. Messi was spectacular playing for Barcelona and surrounded by Xavi and Iniesta. He has been utterly garbage on the international stage from day one. I hear these same excuses every World Cup. Messi absolutely SUCKS in international play and World Cup where it matters.

 

[Halftrack]

Some guy: Bale is as good as, if not better than Ronaldo right now.
Other dude: That's not true.
Some guy: What's not true?
Other dude: That Bale is better than Ronaldo.
Some guy: I never said that? In fact, you took what I said out of context, and I will now spend ages trying to deny ever saying that thing I said.

Ranks up there with the most baffling things I've read on here.

 

[Rito]

The blind brigade is in full meltdown I see.
What happened to the narrative that every game Messi basically picks up the ball from the Gk , dribbles past 10 and scores , while ronaldo is a tap-in merchant?

Forget GOAT, he's not even the greatest Argentinian footballer.

 

[Member 109952]

Messi for Argentina is such a weird one, he's meant to be the creator for them but he doesn't really do it for them. The only thing he does reasonably well is that dribble in the centre and then gets that shot off.. but it doesn't really help the team. It feels like other times he's waiting for Alba to make the run down the left wing, or Suarez to play the ball too, or an Iniesta to make a run into the box.. but they're not there.

He's a great player but this Argentina just look clueless.. no continuinity in who plays upfront aside from Messi, no proper tactics.. it just seems to be stick whomever next to Messi and see what happens. I find it hard to believe that taking Messi out of the team and playing say Banega - Mascherano - Di Maria in midfield and Aguero - Higuain - Dybala up front could be worse. But then I didn't watch their qualifying where they were supposedly bad without Messi, but it just seems like he's not helping the team at all by being its focal point.

Maybe it's because he's so suited to one style of football at Barca that he's just not flexible enough to play other ones, Ronaldo for example under SAF had to play quite a few different positions and tactics - e.g. we'd have possession in the PL but in the big games in the CL we often played defensively strong and counter attacked well. Now for Portugal they're happy to let the other team have the ball and counter-attack, and Ronaldo plays his role in that very well.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Besides that, shall I embed the video again? You won't find another player doing what Messi did against Iceland,

Iceland has a population of 334,000 people!!! HAHA don't make me laugh. Messi is an absolute embarassment at every World Cup he played at.

Don't get me started about last World Cup where he scored goals against Bosnia and Iran, all in the group stages, before doing his disappearing act in the knock-out stages.

 

[Daysleeper]

Iceland has a population of 334,000 people!!! HAHA don't make me laugh. Messi is an absolute embarassment at every World Cup he played at.

Don't get me started about last World Cup where he scored goals against Bosnia and Iran, all in the group stages, before doing his disappearing act in the knock-out stages.

So what’s Portugal’s reason for not beating Iceland? Ronaldo failed miserably against them as well

 

[Ji_Maria]

He's a great player but this Argentina just look clueless.. no continuinity in who plays upfront aside from Messi, no proper tactics.. it just seems to be stick whomever next to Messi and see what happens. I find it hard to believe that taking Messi out of the team and playing say Banega - Mascherano - Di Maria in midfield and Aguero - Higuain - Dybala up front could be worse. But then I didn't watch their qualifying where they were supposedly bad without Messi, but it just seems like he's not helping the team at all by being its focal point.

Messi has been bad in all 4 of his World Cups, and in the qualifying rounds as well. He's had 4 World Cups now to prove his worth, and they've struggled against far worse teams.

I love how people are complaining about Argentina's team being a mess. YOU CAN'T EVEN BEAT ICELAND, with a population of 334,000 people, and you just lost to Croatio 0-3!!!

 

[Ji_Maria]

So what’s Portugal’s reason for not beating Iceland? Ronaldo failed miserably against them as well

We're not talking about Portugal or Ronaldo, but there is no excuse. That is an embarassment as well, but less so given that Portugal is also a tiny country with a rather crap football team, bar a few exceptions. But at least Ronaldo can hold his head up high for single-handedly holding off a far supeior Spainish team. Ronaldo vs. Spain was one of the great games in World Cup history. Messi has not had a single "good game" against any team in 4 World Cups, despite playing with objectively far superior teammates than Ronaldo. How many chances does Messi need to produce one good performance?

And for the record, I don't think this current "EA Games" generation of footballers hold a candle to either Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho, and believe it's a sham to even consider Messi or CR7 to be a "GOAT."

 

[Zehner]

They didn't, it was a corner. Any half decent team can get the ball forward and put a few crosses in, it's not that hard.

Ronaldo gets plenty of shit for not being able to do things Messi's better at, why shouldn't the opposite be true too? Why do you excuse Messi by saying 'it's not his role' but you don't do the same for Ronaldo?

A bit unrelated but this World Cup will hurt Messi even more because the narrative for the season had been that he singlehandedly carried Barcelona to a double... now I think everyone can see that isn't true.

Because I already said that I think Messi's responsibilities are more important and harder to do. Additionally, he's far better in Ronaldo's territory (scoring goals), arguably equals him there, while Ronaldo is nowhere near as good in Messi's (creating, passing, dribbling).

Besides that, I think you depict it far too easy. You pretend that with Ronaldo on the pitch you only need to barely cross the middle line and play a high and long ball towards the penalty area and Ronaldo will do the rest. You used the same narrative to describe Real Madrid's attacking concept. While it may be true that it sometimes is enough to create half chances for Ronaldo, this is completely exaggerated.

 

[led_scholes]

What are you on. Messi was spectacular playing for Barcelona and surrounded by Xavi and Iniesta. He has been utterly garbage on the international stage from day one. I hear these same excuses every World Cup. Messi absolutely SUCKS in international play and World Cup where it matters.

Because Ronaldo has been great? During Messi's era, Argentina has reached 1 world cup final and 3 Copa America finals. How is that garbage?

 

[redmanx]

Ronaldo v Messi? Ronaldo. Why? He played for Manchester United of course.

 

[Peyroteo]

Because I already said that I think Messi's responsibilities are more important and harder to do. Additionally, he's far better in Ronaldo's territory (scoring goals), arguably equals him there, while Ronaldo is nowhere near as good in Messi's (creating, passing, dribbling).

Besides that, I think you depict it far too easy. You pretend that with Ronaldo on the pitch you only need to barely cross the middle line and play a high and long ball towards the penalty area and Ronaldo will do the rest. You used the same narrative to describe Real Madrid's attacking concept. While it may be true that it sometimes is enough to create half chances for Ronaldo, this is completely exaggerated.

Obviously... but the point is that it becomes a lot easier for the team to create and football isn't divided by the arbitrary notions of creating, passing and scoring when their impact on their teams is more often than not completely unrelated to those things.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Because Ronaldo has been great? During Messi's era, Argentina has reached 1 world cup final and 3 Copa America finals. How is that garbage?

How many goals/assists did Messi contribute to that 1 World Cup final? Let's not get wrapped up in his goals against Bosnia and Iran. Anyone watching Argentina in 2014 can objectively see that Messi for Argentina is far worse than Messi for Barcelona, and let's not forget the firepower Argentina had in 2014 (one of the greatest teams assembled on paper). And they had one of the easist groups (if not the easiest) and a really easy run-up, playing against Belgium and Switzerland (each of whom they barely beat 1-0) and when they finally came up against real competition in the Netherlands, they had to rely on penalties to get through to Germany where they were visibly outclassed. Let's be honest - Argentina was extremely lucky in 2014 to get as far as they did, and Messi certainly had nothing to do with it.

Defenders: Federico Fernandez (Napoli), Ezequiel Garay (Benfica), Martin Demichelis (Manchester City), Pablo Zabaleta (Manchester City), Marcos Rojo (Sporting Lisbon), Jose Basanta (Monterrey), Hugo Campagnaro (Inter Milan).

Midfielders: Fernando Gago (Boca Juniors), Augusto Fernandez (Celta Vigo), Javier Mascherano (Barcelona), Angel Di Maria (Real Madrid), Lucas Biglia (Lazio), Maxi Rodriguez (Newell's Old Boys), Ricardo Alvarez (Inter Milan), Enzo Perez (Benfica).

Forwards: Sergio Aguero (Manchester City), Gonzalo Higuain (Napoli), Lionel Messi (Barcelona), Ezequiel Lavezzi (Paris Saint-Germain), Rodrigo Palacio (Inter Milan).

Ronaldo has not been great either, but at least though he has proven that he can succeed at the highest level in two different leagues and has scored a hattrick against Spain, whereas Messi is only good for Barcelona and the odd goal against Bosnia.

 

[Luke1995]

And for the record, I don't think this current "EA Games" generation of footballers hold a candle to either Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho, and believe it's a sham to even consider Messi or CR7 to be a "GOAT."

Well, if you're thinking about pure talent and ability, you have a strong case to argue that both Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are better than Messi and CR7 but people usually put them out of that discussion due to the inconsistency of their careers. (Perceived inconsistency at least)
I think Ronaldinho is indeed the GOAT because he is the only player in football history (that I am aware of) to have won the World Cup, the Champions League and the Copa Libertadores. Some people like to say he was finished after the 2006 WC but that is so far out of reality... in 2006-07 he was Barça's top scorer and assist leader and at Milan he had plenty of great individual games.