Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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I think that the Ronaldo vs Messi debate has been put to bed in the last few years - Messi is a very good player but Ronaldo is a winner
 
Trizy said:
Surely given current form at the business end of the season and IF Madrid win the CL, then Ronaldo is favorite for Ballon D'or number 6?

Absolutely incredible considering he was wrote off by so many only before Christmas.
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So many wrote him off when the Ballon d’Or count was 1-4.


1-4.

1 to fecking 4!


Absolutely incredible, you can’t really put that into words.
 
Apocalypse said:
They lost the midfield battle, Suarez can't run or get involved in any link up play and their defence were either hell bent on putting themselves under pressure by passing it around the back or hoofing it forward to their (apparent) big target man up front.

Of all the games to lay blame at Messi's feet, this wasn't one of them. He could done a bit more sure, but put Ronaldo in that side last night and it's the same story. If Real draw them I'm quite confident Modric, Kroos, Caseimeiro, Marcelo and Carvajal won't be bullied the way those Barcelona players were last night. How many chances did they fashion until Dembele came on?

Valverde must surely be sacked after that. They could go unbeaten in the league and he'd still warrent it. Ridden his luck alot this season with a serious over reliance on Messi, last night that luck ran out and he was shown up big time by Di Francesco.
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There are some posters here a while ago insist Messi actually plays in midfield role, which makes his goalscoring stats even more impressive. And how Messi singlehandedly lead Barca to league title this season.

Now we have people saying losing the midfield battle and the game has nothing to do with Messi at all.
 
I feel genuinely sorry for the people who are so caught up in supporting their particular choice that they cannot enjoy and appreciate both of these players. It makes even less sense to me if you're not a Real/ Barca fan or Portugese/ Argentinian.

These are two of the best players of all time, undoubtedly the two best players playing now and some people are so caught up in trying to prove who is better to others that they can't enjoy watching them.
 
RedStarUnited said:
It shouldn't but it does. In fact the sole reason Ronaldo is tied with Messi on the Balon Dor's is because of this. In 2013, Ronaldo won the Balon Dor but Messi had won the league that year scoring 46 goals. Neither him or Ronaldo won the CL and neither of them had an international tournament.

Nov 15, 2013 - Deadline for Voting
Nov 19, 2013 - Ronaldo scores a hat-trick in KO game to take Portugal to the world cup. Argentina had already qualified.
Nov 20, 2013 - Fifa extend the voting for Balon Dor until 29th of November. Saying that they didn't get enough votes back. And they even allowed the people who voted before the 15th to change their votes to take account "recent" performances.

The extension only favoured one person, and with the hat trick fresh on peoples minds...
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But November 2013 is part of 2013?

What's that got to do with Sep-Dec 2017 not being part of 2018?
 
RedRonaldo said:
There are some posters here a while ago insist Messi actually plays in midfield role, which makes his goalscoring stats even more impressive. And how Messi singlehandedly lead Barca to league title this season.

Now we have people saying losing the midfield battle and the game has nothing to do with Messi at all.
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When Barca win, Messi did it all himself. When Barca lose, it's his terrible team mates who let him down, he was still the best player on the pitch.

Book of St Lionel 1.1
 
Cal? said:
But November 2013 is part of 2013?

What's that got to do with Sep-Dec 2017 not being part of 2018?
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I read that sentence in isolation and assumed you meant what happens in Sep to Dec doesnt count for the Balon dor voting.
 
If Madrid spoil a C.L semifinal like that, and Cristiano does not score(regardless of how well he played before) at this time the fans and press would be sending him to China in the first plane.
 
RedStarUnited said:
I read that sentence in isolation and assumed you meant what happens in Sep to Dec doesnt count for the Balon dor voting.
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I see, it was a reply to someone saying Messi has had a great domestic season, and I pointed out that the first half of that season is not part of 2018.
 
I think after this KO round Cristiano has a slightly better CL performance over their careers. Messi has a lot more really, really bad showings in particular.
 
MrEleson said:
Also swap teams for Messi and CR and I doubt Madrid would improve much.

He's not as versatile as Ronaldo in terms of goalscoring. Neither is his movement off the ball as intelligent.

Also, his dribbling becomes negligible as there other great dribblers on the Madrid team like Modric, Isco, Marcelo and even Vasquez.

Before the pass comes the move, as Xavi once said. If Messi played for Madrid instead of Ronaldo they'd lose and people would blame rubbish Benzema scoring 5 goals all year and turtle Kroos making only sideway passes. If you actually watch Madrid they create "easy" chances through spamming crosses. Ronaldo lives off aerial balls, being at the right place at the right time for second balls and being quick on counter attacks. Messi doesn't have that scoring versatility meaning that creating chances for him is a lot harder.

And i doubt they'd need him to be "controlling games"
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I remember this team Barcelona had between 2009 and around 2013. Some good dribblers like Iniesta and Sanchez, absolute midfield maestros in Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets as well as proficient goal scorers in David Villa/Eto'o/Henry. A bit like the current Madrid side. They really didn't need Messi at all, I mean they could control the game very well without him and had enough great dribblers.

Irony aside, when Messi had a team like Cristiano currently has (actually they are pretty similar) he absolutely lit the world on fire and had the best individual year and season in history. Saying that the current Real squad wouldn't need him because they already have playmakers and dribblers is therefore quite ridiculous.

The difference is when Real had an average side, Ronaldo did far less than what Messi currently does (and I rate Mourinho's Madrid team higher than the current Barca team, at least without Coutinho in the CL). Yes, he still scored for fun and did his job but he created less while Messi still wins his team the league.
 
Some people actually arguing Messi is more reliant on being fed by team mates than Ronaldo.

Now, especially after last night, a strong case can be made that Ronaldo is eclipsing Messi, but Ronaldo is obviously more reliant on being fed by his team. It's just inherent on his style of play as a goal scoring machine.
 
Cal? said:
When Barca win, Messi did it all himself. When Barca lose, it's his terrible team mates who let him down, he was still the best player on the pitch.
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Sounds ridiculous but is most often the case currently, yes.

Isn't true for earlier Barcelona sides though. MSN and Guardiola's Barcelona were able to win games against great teams even without Messi playing like a half god.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Some people actually arguing Messi is more reliant on being fed by team mates than Ronaldo.

Now, especially after last night, a strong case can be made that Ronaldo is eclipsing Messi, but Ronaldo is obviously more reliant on being fed by his team. It's just inherent on his style of play as a goal scoring machine.
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He makes it easier to be fed chances because of his athleticism and movement though so it's not as simple as that. With Madrid all it takes is getting to the byline and they're in a dangerous position because there's a monster in the box, this makes it a lot easier on the team to create too even if it's not as direct as getting the ball and dribbling past players.
 
I have watched Barca 15+ times this season and I am shocked at how good their record is domestically. Don't keep the ball as smoothly as past teams, don't have the energy to press as consistently as they used to. Always looks as if the other team has a chance. Messi has kept that veil of invincibility around them, outside of him they are a team greatly in need of a refresh. Dembele and Coutinho is the start of that but they need to get some legs into that midfield unit.
 
Peyroteo said:
He makes it easier to be fed chances because of his athleticism and movement though so it's not as simple as that. With Madrid all it takes is getting to the byline and they're in a dangerous position because there's a monster in the box, this makes it a lot easier on the team to create too even if it's not as direct as getting the ball and dribbling past players.
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I agree it's easier to feet Ronaldo, because he's simply a physical beast and superb at positioning himself, but he does still need to be fed. It's not criticism of Ronaldo, but a difference in style of play.
 
Peyroteo said:
He makes it easier to be fed chances because of his athleticism and movement though so it's not as simple as that. With Madrid all it takes is getting to the byline and they're in a dangerous position because there's a monster in the box, this makes it a lot easier on the team to create too even if it's not as direct as getting the ball and dribbling past players.
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That's a pretty good argument, honestly. But it is not like there aren't any other players around who are monsters in the box, too. Not as good as Cristiano, maybe, but still really good. Suarez was brought in in order to have such a striker. And it worked out initially, Barca scored much more "easy" goals. But this season, Suarez looks done, especially in the CL. Yesterday I've read that Barcelona's best scorer after Messi is the opponent. And this despite the fact that Messi is occupied much more in the build up. As a consequence it seems like they are completely dependent on either look or Messi scoring a worldie.

You could also argue that it is very easy to create chances for Messi, too. The only thing required is giving him the ball around 30 meters in front of the goal. And besides that, it is also easier to great opportunities for other players because the opponent will be busy isolating Messi from his team mates by assigning man markers etc.
 
There's three parts to this I feel.

1. At present who is the better player? I would say Ronaldo. Messi clearly can't keep up with him in the biggest of games right now.

2. Better player over their careers? It has to be Messi. Leo of 2009- 2015 is better than any version of Ronaldo and quite clearly IMO.

3. Who's had the greater career? This is leaning towards Ronnie with the Euros triumph but he will seal it with another CL this season. The World Cup will be the all deciding factor but I don't see either of them winning it tbh.
 
Cal? said:
When Barca win, Messi did it all himself. When Barca lose, it's his terrible team mates who let him down, he was still the best player on the pitch.

Book of St Lionel 1.1
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El Jefe said:
There's three parts to this I feel.

1. At present who is the better player? I would say Ronaldo. Messi clearly can't keep up with him in the biggest of games right now.

2. Better player over their careers? It has to be Messi. Leo of 2009- 2015 is better than any version of Ronaldo and quite clearly IMO.

3. Who's had the greater career? This is leaning towards Ronnie with the Euros triumph but he will seal it with another CL this season. The World Cup will be the all deciding factor but I don't see either of them winning it tbh.
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The thing is, a lot of people are using “Ronaldo has been better in the CL so he is the better of the two”

However, the CL requires players for the top teams to be at their best for 7 games if they win it. They can even win it by being at their best in only 3-4 of them games.

Why hasn’t Ronaldo been able to do it week in week out all season then? Because his team are 15 points behind Barcelona right now.

People will use excuses of “because the team have been poor, not just him”. But when his team wins in the CL people say “it was all because of Ronaldo”.

For me running away with the league is better than winning the CL. Because you have to play much more games. Liverpool and Chelsea both finished 4th and won the CL.

For me Messi has been far better than Ronaldo this season.

Messi is the main reason his team are so far ahead of Real and the rest. And was also unbelievable in both legs vs Chelsea.

As soon as he has a poor 2nd leg (which is one gam by the way), he is suddenly worse than Ron?

1 game in the CL of being vs 20 La Liga games of being poor for Ron.

You can’t just decide that because one wins the CL and the other wins the league that only the CL matters because that is the only way you can argue Ron has been better this season. Which he hasn’t.
 
Argentina and Barca are not good enough for Messi anymore.

He should move on.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Me too.

It's obviously like this:
When Barca win it's because of their great midfield. When Barca lose, it's because Messi is overrated.

Duh.
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Have I ever even insinuated anything like that?
 
Cal? said:
Have I ever even insinuated anything like that?
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Messi looking better than he is because of Xaviesta (as you call them).

Eh,

Yes sir, yes you have :)

"Messi was more successful at a younger age mainly due to playing in a vastly better team with Xaviesta & co. He's no longer anywhere near as successful once Xavi left and Iniesta got worse."
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
The thing is, a lot of people are using “Ronaldo has been better in the CL so he is the better of the two”

However, the CL requires players for the top teams to be at their best for 7 games if they win it. They can even win it by being at their best in only 3-4 of them games.

Why hasn’t Ronaldo been able to do it week in week out all season then? Because his team are 15 points behind Barcelona right now.

People will use excuses of “because the team have been poor, not just him”. But when his team wins in the CL people say “it was all because of Ronaldo”.

For me running away with the league is better than winning the CL. Because you have to play much more games. Liverpool and Chelsea both finished 4th and won the CL.

For me Messi has been far better than Ronaldo this season.

Messi is the main reason his team are so far ahead of Real and the rest. And was also unbelievable in both legs vs Chelsea.

As soon as he has a poor 2nd leg (which is one gam by the way), he is suddenly worse than Ron?

1 game in the CL of being vs 20 La Liga games of being poor for Ron.

You can’t just decide that because one wins the CL and the other wins the league that only the CL matters because that is the only way you can argue Ron has been better this season. Which he hasn’t.
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CL is crunch time; you either put up or shut up.

...you think Usain Bolt prefers winning track meets every few months over Olympic Gold? Same thing here with the CL. Next, you’ll be saying winning the league is bigger than a World Cup.


Stop defending Messi of all blame. You’re just desperate at this point.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
The thing is, a lot of people are using “Ronaldo has been better in the CL so he is the better of the two”

However, the CL requires players for the top teams to be at their best for 7 games if they win it. They can even win it by being at their best in only 3-4 of them games.

Why hasn’t Ronaldo been able to do it week in week out all season then? Because his team are 15 points behind Barcelona right now.

People will use excuses of “because the team have been poor, not just him”. But when his team wins in the CL people say “it was all because of Ronaldo”.

For me running away with the league is better than winning the CL. Because you have to play much more games. Liverpool and Chelsea both finished 4th and won the CL.

For me Messi has been far better than Ronaldo this season.

Messi is the main reason his team are so far ahead of Real and the rest. And was also unbelievable in both legs vs Chelsea.

As soon as he has a poor 2nd leg (which is one gam by the way), he is suddenly worse than Ron?

1 game in the CL of being vs 20 La Liga games of being poor for Ron.

You can’t just decide that because one wins the CL and the other wins the league that only the CL matters because that is the only way you can argue Ron has been better this season. Which he hasn’t.
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It's ridiculous to suggest that winning La Liga is harder than the CL. It's quite simple - the better the participating teams, the harder the competition to win. Unless you think the likes of Betis, Bilbao are better than the Bayern, PSG, Man City of this world.

The best players step up on the biggest stage, see Federer's grand slam record for example.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Messi looking better than he is because of Xaviesta (as you call them).

Eh,

Yes sir, yes you have :)

"Messi was more successful at a younger age mainly due to playing in a vastly better team with Xaviesta & co. He's no longer anywhere near as successful once Xavi left and Iniesta got worse."
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So you're going to compare across eras? Then I stand by that Messi won so much because of Xaviesta.
 
Zehner said:
Wouldn't believe it, too, if I hadn't actually watched Barca games this season.
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You're clearly one of the Followers of St Lionel where he can never ever do anything wrong.

Do you seriously think he did well last night? or in any of the 4 games against Juve and PSG last season?
 
Cal? said:
So you're going to compare across eras? Then I stand by that Messi won so much because of Xaviesta.
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Probably. Maybe we should include them in the discussion. I mean, legacy and trophy wise, they beat Messi and Ronaldo by a landslide.
 
RedDington9 said:
You seem to value Keane's opinion a lot. Here's one of them for you on Cristiano Ronaldo...

"'The guy is a genius, it's a simple as that," Keane said on ITV. "You are talking about one of the greatest players ever to play this GAME. He is a joy to watch.'"

You think highly of that Alex Ferguson guy or nah? Know of him? Coached a certain club some here might have heard of. Well anyway, this bloke Ferguson, the one with a career so storied that he's considered the best manger of all time by many, he's repeated on numerous occasions that Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player he's managed. And he's stated it so many times, in such manners and for so many years now that it's clearly beyond any doubt in his mind. Get this, he's even rated him ahead of Messi on many occasions, including when he wasn't even managing him! Must be a biased bugger though.

Here's some statistics (Sorry, I know of your aversion to facts from your previous post) for you that, while concerning Ronaldo, are team-based. Ronaldo, the player you state is so selfish he apparently negatively impacts his teammates, the same players (like Keane, a former teammate) that have continuously spoken only the best things about him. Keane, who also stated that he liked Ronaldo STRAIGHT AWAY when he entered the Man. United locker room because of how he led himself. Wanna know why Keane's opinion of Ronaldo differs from yours? Because how Ronaldo approaches LIFE is admirable to his teammates. Even someone like Roy Keane who ripped his national team manager in 2002 in such a manner that it was described as 'clinical, fierce, earth-shattering to the person on the end of it'. Roy Keane, the guy who stated he's always liked Ronaldo from the moment he met him, the one passionate about football but opting to choose personal principals in relation to what he thought of his manager over competing in Korea/Japan. It INSPIRES Ronaldo's teammates to see someone so dedicated and driven to make the absolute best of what God has given him. You seem to like footballer's quotes a lot, go take a look at how many of them have only spoken the utmost of the 'selfish' man that defended his much maligned teammate (Benzema) against his own fans. The 'selfish' player that thought it more important to get said teammate's confidence up by giving him the opportunity to take a penalty recently, rather than scoring it himself and getting a hat trick. Pretty selfish stuff from the person who has also done all sorts of charity work by his own volition as soon as he had enough money to significantly do it. A real despicable person on and off the field. Clearly.

Sorry, here's those FACTS...Ronaldo has been instrumental in more Champions League triumphs than Messi (4 to 3). Here's another. Cristiano Ronaldo captained Portugal to their only international triumph, in a tournament where they'd have crashed out of the group stages if not for his efforts. Messi can't even win the Copa America, the tournament that Ronaldinho and Kaka thought less worthy of their time than the beaches of Rio during their careers. Get this... Ronaldo's TEAMS, because of Ronaldo, have achieved more important trophies than Messi's have because of Messi. Ronaldo led his team to back-to-back Champions League triumphs, an unprecedented feat that Messi's Barcelona couldn't do, because of Ronaldo's performances against 3 of the top clubs in Europe. Know why it was unprecedented? because the champions league is the toughest competition in the entire history of the sport. Hat tricks against Bayern and Atletico, then slicing and dicing the 'impregnable' defense of Juventus for fun. I know you're too good for this thread and probably won't reply but if you do, please try not to argue that Messi's La Liga wins (a competition to to prove the best team in Spain) are more important than Ronaldo leading his clubs and national team to the summit of European football. The former (Spain) is a geography that makes up part of a MUCH BIGGER ONE. That means higher levels of competition in one relative to the other. much higher. and if you haven't caught on yet... competitiveness = difficulty. you can judge a player to be better than the other because of the talent he was born with but life, and the world, always finds a way to honor and respect what really matters. achievement. Understand that and you'll understand why this debate did not end when Messi won his 4th Ballon D'Or, why this thread exists and why you're posting in it.

Ronaldo's efforts have resulted in his TEAMS... get ready for this.... ACHIEVING MORE IMPORTANT VICTORIES than Messi's. Wanna know why Messi's peak came during the Great Spain years of 2008-2012... BECAUSE HE NEEDED THEM TO GET THERE. Ronaldo needs himself ONLY. It why he wins EVERYWHERE. ALWAYS. And, against ANYONE. It is why he led THREE teams to the TOP OF EUROPE. Go ahead and take a look at where Portugal, Real Madrid and Manchester United were when he entered each teams and then compare to where he took them. Go see how close each were to being European Champions when he entered those teams. Go take a look at how many finals Portugal has been to, and then check the preceding semi-final of each respective final. Tell me who scored the first goal in each of those semi-finals that led to their only final appearances in history. Go compare Portugal's appearances in tournaments and their respective performances Before and After Ronaldo. Tell me what you see. After that, go take a look at Player Ratings from the Portugal vs. France World Cup 2006 semi-final (there's many of them still available... yay Internet!). Let me know what you see. Hint: Ronaldo was voted by many not only the best Portuguese player, but the BEST PLAYER ON THE FIELD. Against Zidane's France playing in a team with Figo, Deco, etc. etc. In a game that, like in '66, was the farthest his national team had ever gotten in the most important national team competition there is. A game where, like in the 2009 Champions League final, it was his teammates that didn't match his level of effort and influence. Nah, you don't want to do that research. Someone so assured in what they say doesn't want their mind changed. Those pesky statistics (FACTS) that are grounded in reality tend to change people's uninformed opinions. You're clearly not interested in that. You're an old guy apparently so you know everything!

It's why you ask for demographics of people who defend Ronaldo. You seem to like to talk down to others from the high spot you imagine yourself to be on, and assume anyone that doesn't agree with you is because they're younger and therefore too juvenile to understand your unquestionable logic that you yourself proudly (and sadly) state isn't based on FACTS. Apparently not old enough to know what an ad-hominem is. You don't want to debate rationally. You want to debase arguments not on the merit of the argument themselves, but those that make said arguments. Better to stick to your fingers in your ears and tell yourself you're right and that you won't bother wasting your time in this senseless debate again. But you stated that in your first post, yet here I am replying to your second post in this thread. And looks like that second wasn't your last.

Keane stated Xavi is on the level of Zidane huh... Zidane, that player who has stated just within the past week or so that CR7 is from another galaxy? Wanna know why he said that? It isn't just because he's his coach, although I'm sure you want to think that is the only reason. You'll clearly avoid considering anything that could destroy your opinion of CR7 and won't bother asking yourself how many coaches, particularly a legend like Zidane, have even said such a thing about another player not named Messi. Zidane said it because he KNOWS how tough it is to do what Cristiano Ronaldo has done. He KNOWS how tough it is to play in a competition like the Champions Leauge, a competition where Ronaldo will NEVER be surpassed in goals because the only person capable of surpassing him (Messi) sees the distance grow larger and larger with each passing year. A competition where he has outscored messi, your 'eye' test victor, forty (40) to sixteen (16) in the most difficult stages of the most difficult competition in the sport's history, during it's most competitive period. How's those FACTS doing with your 'eye'? How about your brain?

Congratulations, you're old enough to have watched Rivaldo play. Now try to realize why even the most ardent of Barca supporters (check out CR7's forum on Barcaforum.com) would read "Rivaldo > CR7" and then laugh at such a stupid and ludicrous statement. Try and figure out why Cristiano Ronaldo is listed in every All-Time Starting XI for clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United and why Rivaldo doesn't make most's Barca All-Time XI and why he played for Deportivo at an age Ronaldo had already LED Manchester United to a Champions League title. I don't think you're going to like the answer. I'll give you another hint: The answer is NOT that Rivaldo is the better footballer.

But it's your opinion that he is a better footballer than Ronaldo, and you're free to have it, even if it's wrong as far as opinions can be wrong. I'll let you know something you are wrongabout though. when you stated in your initial post that football can't be spoken of in the same breath as statistics because it's more 'nuanced' than other sports. do you understand how football became a global game? how it became the biggest sport this world has seen or ever will see? it's because it's simple. it's the opposite of nuanced. It involves a ball, and putting said ball in your opponent's net more times than they put it in yours. THAT'S IT. Football is clearly too big of a part of your life for you to see that it's nothing more than a GAME. Like Monopoly, Jenga, or Chess. But more entertaining and requiring some more athleticism. You should change your perspective on to where you realize football is a JUST A GAME, where a game is a very defined thing despite what Arrigo Sacchi recently stated. Trust me, the view is better from that side. IMO, at least.

Cheers.
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Marvelous. Thumbs up
 
Cal? said:
You're clearly one of the Followers of St Lionel where he can never ever do anything wrong.

Do you seriously think he did well last night? or in any of the 4 games against Juve and PSG last season?
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No, I don't. But you cannot expect a player to step up every single game.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
The thing is, a lot of people are using “Ronaldo has been better in the CL so he is the better of the two”

However, the CL requires players for the top teams to be at their best for 7 games if they win it. They can even win it by being at their best in only 3-4 of them games.

For me running away with the league is better than winning the CL. Because you have to play much more games. Liverpool and Chelsea both finished 4th and won the CL.
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Winning the championship is better than winning the World Cup too then, one only has 7 games at most while the other has 46 so it is a better representation of a team's quality and therefore it is the best competition. Or does your logic only work in certain scenarios?

Seriously though, is there a single Barcelona or Madrid fan in the whole world who would rather win the league over the Champions League?
 
Goals conceded by Barca (ucl +la liga):
7 + 16 = 23

Goals conceded by Real (ucl +la liga):
9 + 31 = 40





...Messi is being carried by his team.

...Ronaldo carries Real Madrid.
 
Zehner said:
I remember this team Barcelona had between 2009 and around 2013. Some good dribblers like Iniesta and Sanchez, absolute midfield maestros in Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets as well as proficient goal scorers in David Villa/Eto'o/Henry. A bit like the current Madrid side. They really didn't need Messi at all, I mean they could control the game very well without him and had enough great dribblers.

Irony aside, when Messi had a team like Cristiano currently has (actually they are pretty similar) he absolutely lit the world on fire and had the best individual year and season in history. Saying that the current Real squad wouldn't need him because they already have playmakers and dribblers is therefore quite ridiculous.

The difference is when Real had an average side, Ronaldo did far less than what Messi currently does (and I rate Mourinho's Madrid team higher than the current Barca team, at least without Coutinho in the CL). Yes, he still scored for fun and did his job but he created less while Messi still wins his team the league.
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Messi is too shit to actually score he hides behind the but I'm playmaking.
 
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