There are many reasons a team can lose a game of football, their star playing not performing is only one of many. What i am trying to say it's illogical to blame a loss or attribute a win to one single player.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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But these key players do play a key part
Have i ever said that?Okay but I thought Messi didn’t rely on chances created for him and made his own chances so why should his team matter? I get it that ronaldo is just crespo but Messi has it all right?
There’s just a lot of bias on here and I won’t say for no reason because from 2008-2012 Messi was the better player but now people are unwilling to accept Ronaldo took over
Ofcourse and i did mention key players performing is a factor.
Are you selectively reading my posts on purpose?
Did you watch the Juve-Madrid game? 11 against 11 who was the better team? What happened?
If Messi made it as easy for his teammates as they just had to kick the ball to him in the vicinity of the goal and he'd score it then their players would have no problems creating chances either. But no, it was Carvajal's and Isco's genius that got them to cross the ball without even looking at the box so Ronaldo could score another goal after his teammates brilliantly put it on a plate for him.
No but general theme after Messi’s loss is oh he can’t help it his teammates suck but after Ronaldo’s win is “all the teams service”
Fixed
I agree 2009 but I do think till around 2012 Messi was better (but not clearly as some people will say)
Also amazes me how many times people mention Higuain missing goals in the World Cup denying Messi his trophy when
A) without Higuains goals they wouldn’t even be there
B) Ronaldo was a teenager playing a key role in almost winning his country the euros back in 2004 but was denied by fluke Greece performance in the final but this rarely gets mentioned
Worse than the Euros final was the WC semifinal in 2006 where he was the best player on the pitch and we got knocked out unfairly by the french.
That's true but look at Cristiano's CL campaigns after he went to Madrid and before La Decima. Even in some games during La Decima, he was more or less non-existent. Messi still had games where he carried his team on his own. Exemplarily against Chelsea or Bayern. But you simply cannot expect him to do it every single game. I mean, Barca would've probably already been out if Messi hadn't beaten Chelsea singlehandedly. You can expect him to do it once or twice during a competition like the CL but not in every match-up.
The thing is, a great system allows a team to be greater than the sum of its parts. Those parts were already great in Guardiola's Barca side but they were elevated even further due to the system. It is easier to shine in such teams. But even the Barca of 2015 didn't play like that and primarily depended on individual brillance from Neymar or Messi. And this is simply not sustainable because it is based too much on daily form etc. Now it is even worse. Logically you create less in such situations, especially against strong opponents where team performance is even more important.
Well, Messi did score 91 goals in 2012 whilst winning very little, I really don't know what to make of that.
Completely agree regarding Higuain, that's why I point out he scored the winning against Belgium everytime someone mentions his miss in the WC final.
What has he taken over?
less dribblings, less assists, less freekick goals?
I am seriously curious
less dribblings, less assists, less freekick goals?
I am seriously curious
As much as I think Messi is better than Ron. I agree with you on this. He has to be top 5 ever. The guy is unbelievable.
Prestige and quality indicators are two different things.
Well, Messi did score 91 goals in 2012 whilst winning very little, I really don't know what to make of that.
Completely agree regarding Higuain, that's why I point out he scored the winning against Belgium everytime someone mentions his miss in the WC final.
So, it's winning the Cup (where Barcelona elimated Real Madrid) vs La Liga title for you, and then there's this
Plus a 5 goal game against Bayer, the comeback vs Milan, 8 vs 7 UCL KO round goals... and still you don't know what to make of that year, or won't give it clearly to him? Nice.
Oh, he deserved his Ballon Dor.So, it's winning the Cup (where Barcelona elimated Real Madrid) vs La Liga title for you, and then there's this
Plus a 5 goal game against Bayer, the comeback vs Milan, 8 vs 7 UCL KO round goals... and still you don't know what to make of that year, or won't give it clearly to him? Nice.
But was that really a successful year? Given he did win nothing of note
Individually for Messi it was a successful season, for Barca it wasn't. There's a reason why football is called a team sport.
Was it really a successful year for Messi? He bottled the biggest games, even missing that penalty against Chelsea.
How successful your season is on an individual level doesn't fall on one penalty shot or not being able to score in two particular matches. It's so incredibly obvious why you and so many other Ronaldo fans think that it does though since Ronaldo has scored for fun in the big CL games over the last few years.
Also, saying that Messi "bottled" the biggest games is laughable when the the only thing you base that on is that the goal column doesn't have Messi's name in it.
It's fine if you think Ronaldo is better but questioning if Messi's 2011-12 season was successful or not when it is arguably seen as the single best season one player has ever had is....a bit much, don't you think?
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So you're being obnoxious out of spite?...
I've sighed enough to last me a while so I think I'll come back to this trainwreck of a thread in 10 years or so when everyone isn't a moody teenager anymore and the last game that was played doesn't affect half the people's view of a ~15 year career.
Have fun guys, it's sure been great and terrible all at the same time.
And FWIW, I think Ronaldo is an incredible player.
2008 would turn into shit for Ronaldo if Terry doesn't screw up after Ronaldo missed his penalty?.
It's the same as Baggio in 94 being criticized for missing the penalty vs Brazil, without Baggio Italy had no business being in that final to start, you're trying to take away how awesome a 91 goals year was for Leo individually because 10cm were the difference between hitting the post or putting Barcelona through?. Guess that's the same logic behind one being a successful international player and the other a bottler, when none of them have actually won a international final they really were part of.
Only since 2016 or so has dribbling been such a big deal. I had never heard about ‘the better you dribble, the better you are’ back in 2008 when he used to dribble past players for fun at united.
Ronaldo would still have the PL title to show for 2008 if Terry hadn't missed.
It's all very well scoring lots and lots of goals, and that's why I said he deserved the Ballon D'or, but the fact remains that he did NOT perform in the biggest games. A draw and a defeat in the league against Real, bottling the penalty against Chelsea in the CL, winning nothing but the CDR.
As for the international finals, if you can't tell the difference between not taking part and LOSING the games, there really is nothing to add.
No, I base that on him missing the penalty against 10-men Chelsea.
What? Then why are players like Ronaldinho, R9, Maradona, Cruyff etc. seen as greats of the game? More or less every player that was considered one of the greatest of his generation was a prolific dribbler. You'd have a hard time finding a Ballon D'Or winner who wasn't until Ronaldo won his second one.
If anything, this obsession with goal scoring is new and started with Cristiano's move to Spain. Before that the best goal scorers were rarely even contestants for Ballon D'Ors. Zidane was considered greater than Henry, Ronaldinho greater than Eto'o and back in the day Beckenbauer greater than Gerd Müller and so on. Nobody really cared about goal records in these type of discussions before the media began reducing the Messi/Ronaldo rivalry to goals.
Some multiple Ballon D'or winners who weren't famous for dribbling off the top of my head...
Platini, van Basten, Beckenbauer, Di Stéfano, Keegan
Before the Messi/Ronaldo era:
Kaka, Cannavaro, Schevchenko, Micheal Own and then bald Ronaldo and Figo. So yeah 4 of them aren't primarily known for dribbling.
Am I the only who finds the level of devotion on here to a non-United player pathetic?
It really seems to have gone up to nauseating levels recently.
It really seems to have gone up to nauseating levels recently.
Let me put it that way. There are very few who were neither a playmaker nor a dribbler. Moreover I can't think of anyone who won it because of his goal scoring records. Additionally, the vast majority of players who were considered the best of their generations at one point were at least very good dribblers.
Besides, I disagree with some of the exceptions you mentioned. Beckenbauer exemplarily was known for his runs and how easy he made it look like when he glided past players.
Besides, I disagree with some of the exceptions you mentioned. Beckenbauer exemplarily was known for his runs and how easy he made it look like when he glided past players.
They won it because of the impact they had on their team. Not due to how that impact precisely happened. Ronaldo didn't win it because of his goalscoring records and Messi didn't win it because of his dribbling.
Judging players by how consistently good they are at their different attributes throughout the season without taking into account their impact on their team and on their team's results would be a stupid way to judge it. 2017 showed why and I don't think anyone argues Ronaldo didn't deserve to win it.
What?! Kaka, Owen, Ronaldo De Lima and Figo were all exceptional dribblers. Tell me which 4 you are talking about?
This thread will implode if Real bottle it tonight
They are seen as greats because they can create goals and score them. Not because of their dribbling. Don’t be daft.
Cruijff is lauded in no small part for his amazing dribbling skills. Ofcourse people talk about the goals, but that doesnt mean dribbling isnt important. You can creat chances by dribbling, especially so, because it creates an extra man. Cruijff is famous for the Cruijff turn, which is a dribbling skill, one of his great moments was creating a penalty chance inthe 74 world cup final by driblling into the box after picking the ball up from his own half. Players that can beat a man are hugely sought after, because it’s a skill that’s both rare and extremely useful.
Apart from that football is a spectator sport, we want to be entertained, good dribblers are entertaining.
Ronaldo is doing better than Messi, and that’s awesome. No need to say silly stuff like who needs dribbling to defend his honor. If anything that’s just more fuel for the “but the fans of the other arebiased fanbois” war. And everytime someone says the word fanboi an innocent puppy dies.
Wow, Mandzukic twice, could Juve do a Roma. Messi and Ron both 'bottling it'. Probably not because Ron is born for the big occasion.
Ronaldo doing a Tom Daley and diving looking for a penalty. Real getting desperate?
This thread is so good.
I'll wait for the final whistle before bigging up Messi if Real go out today
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