Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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Zehner said:
I did not bring in this comparison, Cal? did. Cristiano obviously had the greater career but peak Ronaldo Lima was up there with the best ever if you ask me. He really was a phenomenon and in my opinion, he was better than peak Cristiano. They both had this incredible bursts of speed and could simply outrun opponents but R9 was incredible on the ball. CR7 too, but I felt like most of the skills he did were more "mockery" and less efficient. Purely entertaining. But Ronaldo did tricks and moves you never thought could be efficient in professional football. Yet, he did. The only other player to do this was Ronaldinho but he lacked Ronaldo's killer instinct and pace. It is a question of preference since Cristiano obviously outperforms R9 in terms of longevity.
I also do not understand why you guys permanently think someone wants to downplay Cristiano. I admire him and I do not say the things I say because I want to downtalk his accomplishments. It is simply that he does not belong in the same tier as Messi for me for the reasons I described earlier. I think it is amazing that he achieved to be mentioned among Maradona, Messi, Pele and so on with his playing style but he lacks abilities that the others have - and used efficiently.

I can only repeat myself but for me the one to score the goal, which means the player that has the last contact with the ball before it passes the line, did not necessarily contribute the most to it. As I said, for me it is all about this contribution. And with Messi you feel like he contributes so much more to his own goals (by beating players, link up play, brillant finishes and so on) as well as the goals of his team mates. And even to "goals never to be scored" since others messed up the opportunities he created. You can hardly capture these things in statistics and due to that football has to be reviewed in a qualitative and not a quantitative manner. It is the easy way to just look at the goals a player scored in total. If you look at each goal individually you will see how decisive the scoring player was and in that I think Messi outperforms Ronaldo tremendously. He consistently scores goals that would be career highlights for other players. And its business as usual for him.

However, I don't want to take away Ronaldo's skills Cal? is right when he says that he makes it seem easy to "stand in the right position and score tap ins". He is probably one of the best ever in this regard. Yet, I rate other skills more important than that. It is not that Messi simply "has the skills" like the touch, the passing ability, the ball control and the pace. He is also an incredibly intelligent player that reads the game like few else. His decision making and risk taking is simply brillant and I think it takes just as much intelligence, awareness, instinct and understanding as Ronaldos positional play - yet it also requires superior skills. And it makes Messi more influential and hard to defend. He is adaptable. If his team needs him there, he can as well drop into the midfield. You can never take him out of the game. With Cristiano it is a different story because since he moved from United, he never depicted such a danger from outside the box. Before that, it is a different debate. But for me, Messi is still better in this regard than peak Cristiano at Manchester.
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My only issue with people here is that they only tend use the "older and poacher" version of Ronaldo in his 30's (with only great finishing, header, off the ball movement, determination and big game impact etc) when doing these comparison. They seems to forget all the other amazing things Ronaldo used to do a lot in majority of his earlier career (from early 20's to mid-late 20's), with lots of skills, tricks, techniques, pace, flair, athleticism, long shots, thunderbolt freekicks, electrifying and absolutely dominating in counter attack play etc)

Something like this:

Skills


longshots/thunderbolts
 
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Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Well, that little fella has been averaging like 50 goals a season for a decade, at the highest club level.
Plus, he’s one of the greatest passers of the ball i’ve ever seen and made some of the greatest defenders look like mugs, time and time again.
I’ve lost count how many times he went past 2-3-4 players and scored or created ridiculous goals.

He is not a normal footballer.
There’s absolutely no room for comparison between the two.
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In your mind, not everyone else's
 
El Pasillo said:
Cristiano has played with the likes of Modric, Kroos, Özil, James who are absolutely phenomenal footballers and Benzema has been the 2nd best F9 after Messi while also being a very good striker (Mourinho-era + 15/16 season). That Cristiano-Benzema partnership is one of the best ever in football history. I'd agree with you on Bale however.

The idea that Cristiano played with some scrub at Madrid is rubbish.
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He obviously didnt play with scrubs. But anyone who attempts to claim he has played for the majority of his career in a systems as great or as coordinate as what Messi has at Barca till the past 3 seasons outs themselves as a person with an agenda.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Everytime I hear the word fanboy my soul dies a little.

It’s the death of all debate. Also wildly inaccurate I couldnt gove two fecks about either Messi or Ronaldo. Simply think Messi is comfortably better at football.
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I could careless if you think Messi is "comfortably better at football'. That is your right. However, if You sprout nonsense like what you did in your last post I'll call it out for what it is. Because it isn't debatable that it is agenda driven, blinkered fanboi garbage and there is no 'debate' to kill when you post such.
 
Messi is a better footballer than CR7. But to claim he is 'comfortably better' is just classic fanboish garbage. If he was, whenever the comforts club football provides both he and his rival are stripped away, his achievements would far out strip CR7 in the international game. Let alone that of any current player. But they most certainly don't. In that particular sphere, there is little to chose between the two. That is why the current Balon Dor tally is largely a fair reflection of their careers to date. So I simply never get this never ending desire some have to rubbish one of them, to beef up the praise for one they support. Its isn't that hard to be grateful you will have witnessed the entire careers of both rather than caring qho was king. Finally getting to feel how those who watched Pele and Di Stefano in his day, and Maradona in his day felt.
 
Peyroteo said:
I did challenge your point, you just apparently completely misunderstood mine so again, I'll repeat it.

In 2017 Messi scored more goals than Ronaldo, he had more assists than Ronaldo, he created more chances than Ronaldo, he lost the ball less often than Ronaldo, he dribbled more often than Ronaldo... and Ronaldo was easily the better player. Why is something like that is possible? Because all competitons, all games and all goals are not all worth the same. There seems to be a whole bunch of football fans who can't understand this concept at all.
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That's because most football fans don't use this line of reasoning when they decide which player is better at playing football. If they did, then everyone would think that Klose would be one of the best players in history, because he has scored more WC goals than anyone else. Besides Messi and Ronaldo, Raul has scored much more CL goals than anyone else and also won it 3 times, so he should also be among the top 5 best players ever, yet AFAIK none of them are never even mentioned in these types of discussions.


Peyroteo said:
Arguing Messi is better because he scores about the same but he creates more makes no sense at all.
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It makes all the sense in the world when you are discussing who is the better football player. If you are discussing who is better at scoring more goals in certain games in one specific tournament then I agree that it's not important who creates more chances.

Peyroteo said:
The very best players in history aren't those who score more goals and they aren't those who did more outside of goals, they're the ones who have best performances overall taking into account the importance of said performances. If Maradona doesn't perform in those 2 World Cups would he be remembered as clearly being better than Platini?
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Yes, I'm pretty sure he would.
 
Zlaatan said:
That's because most football fans don't use this line of reasoning when they decide which player is better at playing football. If they did, then everyone would think that Klose would be one of the best players in history, because he has scored more WC goals than anyone else. Besides Messi and Ronaldo, Raul has scored much more CL goals than anyone else and also won it 3 times, so he should also be among the top 5 best players ever, yet AFAIK none of them are never even mentioned in these types of discussions.
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No, because there is more to performances than goals and Klose is nowhere near being the best player in WC history.

Zlaatan said:
It makes all the sense in the world when you are discussing who is the better football player. If you are discussing who is better at scoring more goals in certain games in one specific tournament then I agree that it's not important who creates more chances.
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Again, where did I talk about goals?

Zlaatan said:
Yes, I'm pretty sure he would.
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No, he wouldn't and it's the same for Zico. Same difference between Zidane and Nedved too.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Messi is a better footballer than CR7. But to claim he is 'comfortably better' is just classic fanboish garbage. If he was, whenever the comforts club football provides both he and his rival are stripped away, his achievements would far out strip CR7 in the international game. Let alone that of any current player. But they most certainly don't. In that particular sphere, there is little to chose between the two. That is why the current Balon Dor tally is largely a fair reflection of their careers to date. So I simply never get this never ending desire some have to rubbish one of them, to beef up the praise for one they support. Its isn't that hard to be grateful you will have witnessed the entire careers of both rather than caring qho was king. Finally getting to feel how those who watched Pele and Di Stefano in his day, and Maradona in his day felt.
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As you wish mate, enjoy your weekend.
 
Peyroteo said:
No, because there is more to performances than goals and Klose is nowhere near being the best player in WC history.



Again, where did I talk about goals?



No, he wouldn't and it's the same for Zico. Same difference between Zidane and Nedved too.
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Deary me
 
Peyroteo said:
No, because there is more to performances than goals and Klose is nowhere near being the best player in WC history.
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Oh, care to explain to us the difference between what Klose did for Germany to become the WC top scorer, and what Ronaldo has done for Real Madrid past 2 years to become the best UCL player ever in your opinion?.
 
RedRonaldo said:
My only issue with people here is that they only tend use the "older and poacher" version of Ronaldo in his 30's (with only great finishing, header, off the ball movement, determination and big game impact etc) when doing these comparison. They seems to forget all the other amazing things Ronaldo used to do a lot in majority of his earlier career (from early 20's to mid-late 20's), with lots of skills, tricks, techniques, pace, flair, athleticism, long shots, thunderbolt freekicks, electrifying and absolutely dominating in counter attack play etc)

Something like this:
Click to expand...

I can relate but I did mention that younger Cristiano was a beast and not a pure goal scorer. However, I think the odd thing with him is that in his very soung years, he was a "showboater" with much talent but not enough output, just like many of his type. However, he changed and became much more efficient. So efficient that he really stood out. I have never seen development like this. Comparable players liek Robinho, Quaresma, Denilson and so on took completely different roads and this is what made Cristiano so special. Yet, he kind of became possessed with this efficiency thing and more and more he drifted away to primarily being a goalscorer and the other aspects of his game began to fade away. Therefore, I always found that there was a very short intersection of his efficient and genius self. Probably his last two Manchester United years and the "CR9" years. I agree that this was his peak but I think he won't be remembered for it since the majority of his "great seasons" he actually was a poacher, albeit not extreme as he is now. Thus I believe that it is somehow his own fault because he actively chose to adapt his game.

I also think that you should not only call out the Messi supporters in this thread. In fact, the Ronaldo supporters are those who constantly bring in goal statistics and reduce the whole discussion to this topic. Here are many who think that his last season for Madrid was his best simply because he scored these goals in the finals of the CL. For me, this is just silly since his younger self was so much more influential and Messi still is, too. They are effectively putting that much emphasis on his poacher aspect.
This is also why I think that many who think Messi is better downplay Ronaldo to a pure goalscorer. If you support Messi, you simply feel the need to point out that goalscoring aloneshould not be enough.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Messi is a better footballer than CR7. But to claim he is 'comfortably better' is just classic fanboish garbage. If he was, whenever the comforts club football provides both he and his rival are stripped away, his achievements would far out strip CR7 in the international game. Let alone that of any current player. But they most certainly don't. In that particular sphere, there is little to chose between the two. That is why the current Balon Dor tally is largely a fair reflection of their careers to date. So I simply never get this never ending desire some have to rubbish one of them, to beef up the praise for one they support. Its isn't that hard to be grateful you will have witnessed the entire careers of both rather than caring qho was king. Finally getting to feel how those who watched Pele and Di Stefano in his day, and Maradona in his day felt.
Click to expand...

I think it is silly that team trophies are so decisive for individual trophies. The thing is, the Balon Dor has been the definition of double standards for over a decade. It started with Cannavaro being awarded the price over Ronaldinho when he clearly wasn't the best player. I never understood the idea behind honoring the best player of the most successful team but if you decide to do so, then stick with it. However, they didn't. Otherwise, Messi and Ronaldo would have had some trophies less. I geniunely believe that if the best player had gotten the awards then Cristiano would be at two and the rest would have gone to Messi. However, if it is about team performances, they would both have gotten less and Iniesta, Xavi, Sneijder, Robben, Schweinsteiger, Neuer, Kroos, Ribery and so on should have taken away a few of their Balon Dors.
Yet, they didn't. They adapt their criteria depending on their current agenda and I think it is totally silly. Can't take the Balon Dor serious anymore because of that. Total double standards.
 
Ishdalar said:
Oh, care to explain to us the difference between what Klose did for Germany to become the WC top scorer, and what Ronaldo has done for Real Madrid past 2 years to become the best UCL player ever in your opinion?.
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Ronaldo's the best Champions League player ever because of what he's done through his whole career, not because of what he's done in the past 2 years. Ronaldo's also better in the past 2 years than Klose ever was and that's true if you take their goals out of it too. Which is why last year Ronaldo was clearly the best player ont he pitch in the knockout round against Napoli without scoring a single goal.

Klose's goals have to be put into context too, it's not the same to score against Saudi Arabia in the group stages than it is to score against Brazil in a final.
 
@Ishdalar You are not trying to say Cristiano is the same thing as Klose are you?
 
cyberman said:
You can't claim Messi is more consistent in the league since they're both monsters. Thats a ridiculous thing to say.
We all know Messi is alround a better player but its hilarious to see the argument based on facts etc be such a hard sell that nonsense like this is used to stretch a point.
Most points scoring written on paper points to Ronaldo, thats simply how it is. Its why every other achievement of Ronaldos seems to have a fecking "Yes, but.." attached.
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Messi's officially been La Liga forward of the year in 7 of the last 8 seasons prior 2016/17 (for some reason no award ceremony was held). The other solitary winner was Cristiano Ronaldo in 2013/14. In that period Barcelona have won six of the last nine titles (soon to be seven out of ten come May), each won under four different managers with varied amounts of experience. It's unfair to say that's all down to Messi, though he's most certainly been the catalyst, the media have even coined their own phrase for their dependence on him. Where the debate over who has better team mates for Portugal/Argentina is concerned, there's a nats cock difference between Real and Barcelona.

If your definition of consistency is how many goals they've plundered then yes, there's nothing in it, but in terms of their performances it's a very myopic view to say they've been equals. You could argue till you're blue in the face who's had a bigger impact on their team in Europe or on the International stage, a fair assessment would be Messi between 2009 and 2012, and Ronaldo between 2014 and 2017 (2013/2015 treble teams aside). I don't think it's very debatable who has made the bigger impact domestically though.
 
I would say that CR7's peak was probably 2008-2012, his goalscoring was already incredible while he still maintained his pace and trickery.
 
Infordin said:
I would say that CR7's peak was probably 2008-2012, his goalscoring was already incredible while he still maintained his pace and trickery.
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Untill 2014, the 2 games vs Sweden imo.
 
IndyDC said:
while Messi was playing with Ronaldinho, Eto'o and the like in 2005-6, Ronaldo was playing with the likes of Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba and Alan Smith...
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:lol: Comparing Barcelona's best players with United's worst players at the time.

Messi was playing with Maxi Lopez, Guily, Sylvinho and the like in 2005-06 where as Ronaldo was playing with Rooney, Scholes, Giggs and Van Nistelrooy
 
SCP said:
Why not? Its true. :)
Not his fault Payet tried to cheat. Oh and after a defeat he never said he was going to retire like someone else. I wonder who? :angel:
In the WC's? Absolutely. But don't Messi fans say stats don't matter? :confused:
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It doesn’t because Messi looks a different class to Ronaldo in games when they both dont score or assist.
 
Zehner said:
I can relate but I did mention that younger Cristiano was a beast and not a pure goal scorer. However, I think the odd thing with him is that in his very soung years, he was a "showboater" with much talent but not enough output, just like many of his type. However, he changed and became much more efficient. So efficient that he really stood out. I have never seen development like this. Comparable players liek Robinho, Quaresma, Denilson and so on took completely different roads and this is what made Cristiano so special. Yet, he kind of became possessed with this efficiency thing and more and more he drifted away to primarily being a goalscorer and the other aspects of his game began to fade away. Therefore, I always found that there was a very short intersection of his efficient and genius self. Probably his last two Manchester United years and the "CR9" years. I agree that this was his peak but I think he won't be remembered for it since the majority of his "great seasons" he actually was a poacher, albeit not extreme as he is now. Thus I believe that it is somehow his own fault because he actively chose to adapt his game.

I also think that you should not only call out the Messi supporters in this thread. In fact, the Ronaldo supporters are those who constantly bring in goal statistics and reduce the whole discussion to this topic. Here are many who think that his last season for Madrid was his best simply because he scored these goals in the finals of the CL. For me, this is just silly since his younger self was so much more influential and Messi still is, too. They are effectively putting that much emphasis on his poacher aspect.
This is also why I think that many who think Messi is better downplay Ronaldo to a pure goalscorer. If you support Messi, you simply feel the need to point out that goalscoring aloneshould not be enough.



I think it is silly that team trophies are so decisive for individual trophies. The thing is, the Balon Dor has been the definition of double standards for over a decade. It started with Cannavaro being awarded the price over Ronaldinho when he clearly wasn't the best player. I never understood the idea behind honoring the best player of the most successful team but if you decide to do so, then stick with it. However, they didn't. Otherwise, Messi and Ronaldo would have had some trophies less. I geniunely believe that if the best player had gotten the awards then Cristiano would be at two and the rest would have gone to Messi. However, if it is about team performances, they would both have gotten less and Iniesta, Xavi, Sneijder, Robben, Schweinsteiger, Neuer, Kroos, Ribery and so on should have taken away a few of their Balon Dors.
Yet, they didn't. They adapt their criteria depending on their current agenda and I think it is totally silly. Can't take the Balon Dor serious anymore because of that. Total double standards.
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Personally I have no problem admitting Messi being the "better" player (in traditional sense). But in terms of GOAT, I think they are pretty much equal on objective basis. Note the term "greatest" comes more with "achievements" rather than "opinions". In terms of greatness/achievements, there are very few players in entire football history come close with Messi and Ronaldo (both had won 5 Ballon D'or, 4 CL and multiple league/cups with insane/unmatched individual stats/records).

You are of course entitled to your own opinion. And like it or not, Ballon D'or, are voted fairly by the top professionals in the game (captains/managers of all countries in the world), this is as valid as it could get than all other popularity poll/opinions of random people from the internet.
 
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Cal? said:
Wow!! Messi has scored 1 more than Ronaldo in major tournaments in his career. How amazing. Never mind the fact that the Copa is much much weaker than the Euro.
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Assisted more as well. I can bet Messi has more successful dribbles, more successful passes, more successful key passes etc as well.

The Copa may be weaker than the Euro, but the teams Portugal played on the way to the final were of the lower quality end. Croatia, Poland and Wales. Wow great teams them.
 
I voted Messi.
I love Ronaldo for obvious reasons but the Argentinian is better all round if you ask me.....not by much but I think he edges it.
 
Peyroteo said:
I did challenge your point, you just apparently completely misunderstood mine so again, I'll repeat it.

In 2017 Messi scored more goals than Ronaldo, he had more assists than Ronaldo, he created more chances than Ronaldo, he lost the ball less often than Ronaldo, he dribbled more often than Ronaldo... and Ronaldo was easily the better player. Why is something like that is possible? Because all competitons, all games and all goals are not all worth the same. There seems to be a whole bunch of football fans who can't understand this concept at all.

Arguing Messi is better because he scores about the same but he creates more makes no sense at all.

The very best players in history aren't those who score more goals and they aren't those who did more outside of goals, they're the ones who have best performances overall taking into account the importance of said performances. If Maradona doesn't perform in those 2 World Cups would he be remembered as clearly being better than Platini?
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Wrong again. What stands Pele, Diego, Cruyff and Di Stefano apart from other past greats is their INFLUENCE on a football match, not goals or stats. Again I ask, why isn’t Gerd Muller mentioned amongst them? You’ll just have to get used to the uncomfortable truth, to most people (including some United fans on here), Messi is considered better, and that isn’t likely to change.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Personally I have no problem admitting Messi being the "better" player. But in terms of GOAT, I think they are pretty much equal on objective basis. Note the term "greatest" comes more with "achievements" rather than "opinions". In terms of greatness/achievements, there are very few players in entire football history come close with Messi and Ronaldo (both had won 5 Ballon D'or, 4 CL and multiple league/cups with insane/unmatched individual stats/records).

You are of course entitled to your own opinion. And like it or not, Ballon D'or, are voted fairly by the top professionals in the game (captains/managers of all countries in the world), this is as valid as it could get than all other popularity poll/opinions of random people from the internet.
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Have to disagree. First of all, I do not really think that team trophies count that much. Messi and Cristiano may be incredible successful but both did not win the biggest trophy there is which is the world cup. Iniesta and Xavi are probably the two most successful players in this regard since they are just as successful with their clubs as Cristiano and Messi but also have a WC and two ECs. Also, the German players - although some of them also won major club trophies - did not even come close to a single Balon Dor or the reputation Messi and Cristiano possess. Actually this shows that your individual achievements are far more important in these discussions because otherwise Iniesta would probably be regarded as the greatest player of his generation, not Messi.

I also do not think that the voting methodology is valid at all. First of all, the Balon Dor is also voted on by journalists who definitely have an agenda and want to keep the competition between Messi and Cristiano alive. And second, if it is a common rule that the best player of the most successful team gets voted, this counteracts the expertise the captains and national coaches should have. You just have to take a look at the silly votes some of them make (I remember Neuer having Lewandowski as his best player e.g.). The Balon Dor is simply completely biased and a pure marketing activity.
 
@Apocalypse
I think you can argue against that though. The difference comes between the preference of styles (Messi is a better player) but consistency is not a factor in this type of debate. Ive never seen consistency like this before.
Again, 99 percent of fans know Messi is better but the arguments being put forward are beyond ridiculous. They're both legendary players but the difference lays beyond awards and achievements. Ronaldo has achieved that little bit more but Messi doesn't have to be the most successful player of the two to be considered the better player.
Theres so many posters moving goalposts or inventing boundaries that it becomes hard to follow.
Its why the Ronaldo argument has facts and numbers on their side while the Messi argument slips back into broad strokes, what if scenarios and personal opinion i.e consistency, level of international opponents, Higuain misses etc etc
 
Wait, what....Ronaldo has achieved more? Is that actually true?
 
Zehner said:
Have to disagree. First of all, I do not really think that team trophies count that much. Messi and Cristiano may be incredible successful but both did not win the biggest trophy there is which is the world cup. Iniesta and Xavi are probably the two most successful players in this regard since they are just as successful with their clubs as Cristiano and Messi but also have a WC and two ECs. Also, the German players - although some of them also won major club trophies - did not even come close to a single Balon Dor or the reputation Messi and Cristiano possess. Actually this shows that your individual achievements are far more important in these discussions because otherwise Iniesta would probably be regarded as the greatest player of his generation, not Messi.

I also do not think that the voting methodology is valid at all. First of all, the Balon Dor is also voted on by journalists who definitely have an agenda and want to keep the competition between Messi and Cristiano alive. And second, if it is a common rule that the best player of the most successful team gets voted, this counteracts the expertise the captains and national coaches should have. You just have to take a look at the silly votes some of them make (I remember Neuer having Lewandowski as his best player e.g.). The Balon Dor is simply completely biased and a pure marketing activity.
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It is not as straightforward as you think it is. Fundamentally, any voting system are based on opinions, whether it is by managers/players/captain, or by journalist, or by random people like you and me. Otherwise, how would you propose another system of voting to replace the current one?

Also, modern trend in football is really all about goals, winning, and results. If you go deeper, one could even argue Ronaldo had intentionally change his game from an entertaining skillful winger to efficient goalscorer to take full advantages of such (in order to be recognised as the best player in the world under current trend/system). Truth is both Messi and Ronaldo win games/trophies, by scoring insane no. of goals and providing great no. of assist (ie end-products). Its true we admire and applause good piece of skills and wonderful play on the pitch, but its also a fact that we all celebrate crazy on goals scored and trophies won. This is how it is, and there's simply no one with bigger impact than Ronaldo and Messi in this regard.
 
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Folks it’s 71-29 in Messi’s favour for a reason.

He is and always has been the better footballer between the two. If ever you could expect a place that results might be skewed in Ronaldo’s favour, it’s on a Man Utd forum. And it’s not.
 
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