Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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ryadmahrez said:
You really think Ronaldo was a better footballer than Cruyff? As a footballer? Not a goalscorer. If you think so, you should better stick to basketball. Cruyff was a legit footballing genius. For me Messi is the best ever, but for many Cruyff has claim as the greatest ever rightfully.
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All I will say on this is that I think there are a lot of people out there who believe Ronaldo is the best ever. I am not one of them by the way I think it's Pele. However, I don't think you'll find hardly anyone out there who would put Cruyff as number one. Personally, I loved watching Cruyff play, in fact I lost money on the Dutch in the '74 World Cup where IMLTHO they were the best team in the competition and really should have won. However, even though I believe Cruyff is possibly more aesthetically pleasing than Ronaldo, if I was picking a player whose overall presence on the field would win me the game I would take Ronaldo over Cruyff.
 
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I can't believe people are putting Cruyff the footballer (not the coach) at such a high pedestal ... even Barca fans will admit that other than his first season, he was fairly average for them.
He was outstanding at Ajax though.

No way is Brazilian Ronaldo even close to C. Ronaldo ... Whether it was due to his injuries or mentality, Brazilian Ronaldo always gave you the feeling he could have become much more.
Brazilian Ronaldo could have dragged us to multiple CLs but he just kept getting fat after his first two seasons.

IMHO Pele, Maradona, Messi and C. Ronaldo are in the same 'tier' of players with maybe Messi & Pele > C Ronaldo > Maradona.
 
charlton66 said:
All I will say on this is that I think there are a lot of people out there who believe Ronaldo is the best ever. I am not one of them by the way I think it's Pele. However, I don't think you'll find hardly anyone out there who would put Cruyff as number one. Personally, I loved watching Cruyff play, in fact I lost money on the Dutch in the '74 World Cup where they were the best team in the competition and really should have won. However, I would still take Ronaldo over Cruyff.
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A lot of people think Ronaldo is the best ever? I really doubt that. He is hardly considered the best of his generation. Only by a relatively small portion is he considered the best of his generation. Most will say Messi is the best. Let alone a lot of people who would consider him the best ever. Cruyff on the otherhand was widely considered the best of his generation. And I dont know where you are from, but you will find a lot of people in Holland, Belgium and Spain who will consider Cruyff to be the best ever, so you are wrong on that. My guess is there isnt much difference in how many people there are who think Ronaldo is the best ever as opposed to who think Cruyff is.

Cruyff was one of the biggest(perhaps the biggest) true geniusses that football has known, Ronaldo just isnt that, to say Cruyff doesn't belong with the very top of the footballing greats, is blasphemy.
 
Peyroteo said:
Ronaldo is considered the best of his generation by a lot of people and the best who's ever played the game by a lot of people too. If you think it's a small portion you're more than wrong. If you pretend these are stupid or ignorant people then that's your choice, it doesn't make it true.

As for the rest... this is football, not chess. Why would anyone care if a player was a genius or not? They care how good of a football player they were and what legacy they leave behind, not what their IQ was.

One day there will be a player who is a physical beast (as strong and mobile as Adriano and as tall as Crouch) but just average on the ball, he'll score an hattrick every game, win his team every trophy, carry his country to 5 WC wins in a row and no defense will have an answer on how to stop him... but he won't do enough sharp turns or 'genius' passes. Hopefully then some people start understanding football isn't what they pretend it is, that there are thousands of different ways to be a successful forward and this weird Cruyff-Isco love cult dies out. Not that Cruyff wasn't a genius by the way, he definitely was and if you think he was better than Ronaldo then fair enough on that.
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You're assuming that real football is like FIFA.

Adriano, beyond his mobility, had a lot of class as a player, that's why he's Adriano and not Rashidi Yekini

When you put Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Benzema and Villa around Leo/Cris, they're able to score at an absurd rate, even in important matches, when you pair them with Veloso, Biglia, Mascherano or Meireles, their output drops, because in football before every goal, there's usually a 10 player effort to bring the ball up there.

Your argument just could be turned into a bunch of Shevchenko was better than Zidane, Salva was better than Guti, Robbie Fowler was better than Scholes, Elber better than Ballack and so on... raw output is one ot the measurements you can judge how good one player is, but not THE measurement, that's why, like we always say, 70's Germany/Bayern were Beckenbauer's teams, and not Müller, because between Maier and Müller, Franz was the Kaiser of 80 meters of pitch. And football is a 11 player, 90+M of pitch sport, not just 20M, player's don't magically get the ball around them in the area because of awesomness gravitational pull
 
Ishdalar said:
You're assuming that real football is like FIFA.

Adriano, beyond his mobility, had a lot of class as a player, that's why he's Adriano and not Rashidi Yekini

When you put Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Benzema and Villa around Leo/Cris, they're able to score at an absurd rate, even in important matches, when you pair them with Veloso, Biglia, Mascherano or Meireles, their output drops, because in football before every goal, there's usually a 10 player effort to bring the ball up there.

Your argument just could be turned into a bunch of Shevchenko was better than Zidane, Salva was better than Guti, Robbie Fowler was better than Scholes, Elber better than Ballack and so on... raw output is one ot the measurements you can judge how good one player is, but not THE measurement, that's why, like we always say, 70's Germany/Bayern were Beckenbauer's teams, and not Müller, because between Maier and Müller, Franz was the Kaiser of 80 meters of pitch. And football is a 11 player, 90+M of pitch sport, not just 20M, player's don't magically get the ball around them in the area because of awesomness gravitational pull
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What? I didn't even have an argument, I was just criticizing his. You literally just made up my argument and then argued against it.

I never said the output was the only thing that mattered nor that it should be.
 
Peyroteo said:
What? I didn't even have an argument, I was just criticizing his. You literally just made up my argument and then argued against it.

I never said the output was the only thing that mattered nor that it should be.
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But your argument seems to imply that legacy through output/titles it's the same as the general level of a player when comparing them.

If I played with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Maradona and Cruyff, and they fed me with goals for 10 years, with me breaking scoring records and winning a bunch of titles, would that make me a great player? Or better than them because I'm just the deliverer of all they produce?.

But it's mostly about what you said of that hypothetical future player, it doesn't matter how physically superior he could be over other players (and your assumptions were a big strech of what's humanly possible), if he's not a good football player, he won't be up there with the greatests ever, same way physically gifted stat-sticks like Sprewell have been forgotten for a decade, while guys like Steve Nash keep being brought up when you talk about great players.
 
Ishdalar said:
But your argument seems to imply that legacy through output/titles it's the same as the general level of a player when comparing them.

If I played with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Maradona and Cruyff, and they fed me with goals for 10 years, with me breaking scoring records and winning a bunch of titles, would that make me a great player? Or better than them because I'm just the deliverer of all they produce?.

But it's mostly about what you said of that hypothetical future player, it doesn't matter how physically superior he could be over other players (and your assumptions were a big strech of what's humanly possible), if he's not a good football player, he won't be up there with the greatests ever, same way physically gifted stat-sticks like Sprewell have been forgotten for a decade, while guys like Steve Nash keep being brought up when you talk about great players.
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That's not my argument at all, no idea how you got that from what I wrote. There's much more to a player's legacy than their scoring numbers and the titles they won.

As for your last paragraph, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I thought it was a good analogy but I'll just say it, it was an exaggeration to let him realize there is more to 'footballing ability' than what people generally take as a player's ability on the ball. Ability on the ball is important? Yes, is it the only thing that makes a great player? No.
 
rm4eva said:
I can't believe people are putting Cruyff the footballer (not the coach) at such a high pedestal ... even Barca fans will admit that other than his first season, he was fairly average for them.
He was outstanding at Ajax though.

No way is Brazilian Ronaldo even close to C. Ronaldo ... Whether it was due to his injuries or mentality, Brazilian Ronaldo always gave you the feeling he could have become much more.
Brazilian Ronaldo could have dragged us to multiple CLs but he just kept getting fat after his first two seasons.

IMHO Pele, Maradona, Messi and C. Ronaldo are in the same 'tier' of players with maybe Messi & Pele > C Ronaldo > Maradona.
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I’ve literally never heard anyone put Cristiano ahead of Maradona. As players (not records or achievements) it’s pretty obvious who stands taller.
 
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Tostao_80 said:
I’ve literally never heard anyone put Cristiano ahead of Maradona. As players (not records or achievements) it’s pretty obvious who stands taller.
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Your opinion is an obvious fact so anyone that disagrees is wrong. But that's not enough so you also pretend that those that disagree don't exist.

If Platini outperforms everyone in the 1986 WC and wins it for France he'd most likely be remembered as the better player of the two so don't tell me how you rate Maradona has nothing to do with records or achievements. Comparing two careers isn't the same as comparing two player's attributes when they were at their peak, Maradona at 33 was done while Ronaldo will retire with about twice as many games played as Maradona while playing 99% of his career at the top level. That alone gives Ronaldo a pretty significant argument.

Not that I think Ronaldo's better, but how the hell can you say that Maradona was better is pretty obvious with such arrogance when they're entirely different players playing in entirely different eras of football and both dominated the sport for such a big amount of time? That's what I'll never understand and I know what you're saying is far from being an unpopular opinion but I'll just never understand it.

Even most of the older generation of Madrid fans put Ronaldo alongside Di Stefano as the greatest Madrid player ever, Benfica fans have pretty much stopped comparing him with Eusebio but you still have people that want to pretend he’s nowhere near being up there with the greatest ever.
 
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70-30 in Messi's favor, on a Manchester United forum. I guess anywhere neutral it is more like 80-20. Thing is, I feel that you would get roughly the same results in say 2012, before Ronaldo's Golden Ball winning spree. He can probably win five more of them by scoring a boatload of goals during the latter parts of the next five seasons and it would hardly matter in the grand scheme of things.
 
It’s funny seeing people talk about Ronaldo as if he’s a talentless goalscorer. His reinventing his game really has made people forget how utterly electric he was pre-2014.
 
Peyroteo said:
Your opinion is an obvious fact so anyone that disagrees is wrong. But that's not enough so you also pretend that those that disagree don't exist.

If Platini outperforms everyone in the 1986 WC and wins it for France he'd most likely be remembered as the better player of the two so don't tell me how you rate Maradona has nothing to do with records or achievements. Comparing two careers isn't the same as comparing two player's attributes when they were at their peak, Maradona at 33 was done while Ronaldo will retire with about twice as many games played as Maradona while playing 99% of his career at the top level. That alone gives Ronaldo a pretty significant argument.

Not that I think Ronaldo's better, but how the hell can you say that Maradona was better is pretty obvious with such arrogance when they're entirely different players playing in entirely different eras of football and both dominated the sport for such a big amount of time? That's what I'll never understand and I know what you're saying is far from being an unpopular opinion but I'll just never understand it.

Even most of the older generation of Madrid fans put Ronaldo alongside Di Stefano as the greatest Madrid player ever, Benfica fans have pretty much stopped comparing him with Eusebio but you still have people that want to pretend he’s nowhere near being up there with the greatest ever.
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If it wasn't for some lazy passes Brazil would have beat Italy, gone on to win WC82 then Zico would have been perceived the best before Maradona or Platini.
 
De Portago said:
70-30 in Messi's favor, on a Manchester United forum. I guess anywhere neutral it is more like 80-20. Thing is, I feel that you would get roughly the same results in say 2012, before Ronaldo's Golden Ball winning spree. He can probably win five more of them by scoring a boatload of goals during the latter parts of the next five seasons and it would hardly matter in the grand scheme of things.
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I think most other places it would be close to 85-90 in Messi's favor. I'm surprised it's so much in Messi's favor on here.
 
De Portago said:
70-30 in Messi's favor, on a Manchester United forum. I guess anywhere neutral it is more like 80-20. Thing is, I feel that you would get roughly the same results in say 2012, before Ronaldo's Golden Ball winning spree. He can probably win five more of them by scoring a boatload of goals during the latter parts of the next five seasons and it would hardly matter in the grand scheme of things.
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He could score 1000 goals, lead his team to more and more success until he's 50 and it would hardly matter. He could carry Portugal to the World Cup and it would hardly matter to a lot of people who've already made their choice which just says it all. He'll only get the appreciation he deserves when he retires and people look back at it.

If you search for polls on neutral sites they're more at 60-40 - http://messivsronaldo.net/records/ - bottom of the page, half a million people voted. Being arguably the most hated athlete of all time will play a big part on these votes too, especially when the other is the exact opposite. If you think this place is biased in favour of Ronaldo you couldn't be more wrong. The thread about him returning to United a few months ago said it all.
 
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Peyroteo said:
He could score 1000 goals, lead his team to more and more success until he's 50 and it would hardly matter. He could carry Portugal to the World Cup and it would hardly matter to a lot of people who've already made their choice which just says it all. He'll only get the appreciation he deserves when he retires and people look back at it.

If you search for polls on neutral sites they're more at 60-40 - http://messivsronaldo.net/records/ - bottom of the page, half a million people voted. Being arguably the most hated athlete of all time will play a big part on these votes too, especially when the other is the exact opposite. If you think this place is biased in favour of Ronaldo you couldn't be more wrong. The thread about him returning to United a few months ago said it all.
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Where are you getting that from? He wouldn’t even make a sensible top 1000 list
 
Peyroteo said:
He could score 1000 goals, lead his team to more and more success until he's 50 and it would hardly matter. He could carry Portugal to the World Cup and it would hardly matter to a lot of people who've already made their choice which just says it all. He'll only get the appreciation he deserves when he retires and people look back at it.

If you search for polls on neutral sites they're more at 60-40 - http://messivsronaldo.net/records/ - bottom of the page, half a million people voted. Being arguably the most hated athlete of all time will play a big part on these votes too, especially when the other is the exact opposite. If you think this place is biased in favour of Ronaldo you couldn't be more wrong. The thread about him returning to United a few months ago said it all.
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That 40% he gets them from Madrid´s and United fans, there are plenty, not from neutral fans.
 
Arbitrium said:
Where are you getting that from? He wouldn’t even make a sensible top 1000 list
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Yeah he's not even the most hated on his recent RM team (Pepe and now Ramos), in his position (Suarez is easily the most hated forward in world football), or from his country (Pepe and Mourinho more hated).
 
Arbitrium said:
Where are you getting that from? He wouldn’t even make a sensible top 1000 list
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I even added the arguably just not to make it as decisive because I'm pretty sure he's easily number 1. It's either him or LeBron.

Out of these four: Ronaldo, Pepe, Diego Costa or Luis Suarez which one do you think has more people that dislike him? Football's the biggest sport in the world, we're the time of globalization and he's the biggest star. A lot of people dislike Pepe and Suarez but they mostly don't care until they dive or bite someone, with Ronaldo it's not like that. Players like Ronaldo, LeBron or managers like Mourinho who are actually greats from the sport will bother a lot more people than these dirty players. They mostly bring it upon themselves so they can't really blame anyone but it is what it is
 
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Peyroteo said:
I even added the arguably just not to make it as decisive because I'm pretty sure he's easily number 1. It's either him or LeBron.

Out of these four: Ronaldo, Pepe, Diego Costa or Luis Suarez which one do you think has more people that dislike him? Football's the biggest sport in the world, we're the time of globalization and he's the biggest star.
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1) Suarez
2) Pepe
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3) Costa
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4) C. Ronaldo
 
Peyroteo said:
I even added the arguably just not to make it as decisive because I'm pretty sure he's easily number 1. It's either him or LeBron.

Out of these four: Ronaldo, Pepe, Diego Costa or Luis Suarez which one do you think has more people that dislike him? Football's the biggest sport in the world, we're the time of globalization and he's the biggest star.
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This is why I added the word sensible.

If you were to explain to 100 people that dislike Ronaldo, that there are athletes they should dislike more and give just one of the many reasons why , they’d change their tune. Disliking someone should never be a throwaway comment it should be a thought out process and when you analyze Ronaldo’s character/personality/charitable contributions/desire etc he’s extremely far away from dislikeable, versus someone like chad Johnson who changed his last name to ococinco because it’s his jersey number.
 
@Peyroteo you can’t use the argument that because he’s the most popular he’s naturally the most hated, that’s like saying because McDonald’s well 5000 burgers every minute that they are better than a Michelin star restaurant with a burger on the menu.
 
Arbitrium said:
@Peyroteo you can’t use the argument that because he’s the most popular he’s naturally the most hated, that’s like saying because McDonald’s well 5000 burgers every minute that they are better than a Michelin star restaurant with a burger on the menu.
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That was a terrible comparison :lol:

Being more popular and successful means he has more people that dislike him, that's how it always goes.
 
Arbitrium said:
It’s not how you should judge it though.
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Maybe I just didn't express myself properly then. For me the most hated athlete would be the one who has more people that hate him. I'd say Mourinho is the most hated manager ever too for example which then means there's a lot of people trying to downplay his achievements when he wins and laughing at him when he fails compared to all other managers. Same thing goes for Ronaldo, especially when compared to Messi.
 
Peyroteo said:
He could carry Portugal to the World Cup and it would hardly matter to a lot of people who've already made their choice which just says it all.
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well, I disagree. it would matter to most, but the way he does is more important than the trophy itself. what you need to realise is that most of us here were in Ronaldo camp at some point, but then Messi peaked and changed our minds. to change our minds again, waiting for the last penalty in final while being invisible the whole game or not even playing in it isn't enough. finals against Atletico + final in which he didn't play don't add much in this kind of debate. he'd need be unplayable and untouchable for opponent, something he did vs Juventus for example.

another underwhelming final would change nothing so you're right when you say that most people already made their choices - that's also because Ronaldo never really "owned" the final untill that game vs Juve and majority of us don't really think he's good enough to do the same for Portugal.

I wouldn't rate Messi any higher had Argentina won that final against Germans while he wasn't on the pitch, for example.
 
Bole Top said:
well, I disagree. it would matter to most, but the way he does is more important than the trophy itself. what you need to realise is that most of us here were in Ronaldo camp at some point, but then Messi peaked and changed our minds. to change our minds again, waiting for the last penalty in final while being invisible the whole game or not even playing in it isn't enough. finals against Atletico + final in which he didn't play don't add much in this kind of debate. he'd need be unplayable and untouchable for opponent, something he did vs Juventus for example.

another underwhelming final would change nothing so you're right when you say that most people already made their choices - that's also because Ronaldo never really "owned" the final untill that game vs Juve and majority of us don't really think he's good enough to do the same for Portugal.

I wouldn't rate Messi any higher had Argentina won that final against Germans while he wasn't on the pitch, for example.
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I agree with that and it is how I see it too, just disagree on giving such emphasis to the final when there are a lot of games before it to get there. If Ronaldo doesn't score an hattrick vs Wolfsburg, Madrid wouldn't have been in the final against Atleti for example. I rate Ronaldo's Euro 2016 about on the same level as I rate Messi's World Cup in 2014, despite one having won it and the other not. I've never argued Ronaldo should be rated above Messi because he's won an international title and Messi hasn't, it's definitely better to be a great player on a winning team than a great player on a losing team but the level of performance matters most.

The way I see it, as it stands now, I'd put Ronaldo ahead because looking at their whole careers he's outperformed Messi in the Champions League and internationally. That's the way I think it's more fairly judged rather than looking at what they do more often on the pitch without taking into account the importance of the competitions being played. If Messi goes on to have great performances in the Champions League and in the World Cup then that might change.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
If it wasn't for some lazy passes Brazil would have beat Italy, gone on to win WC82 then Zico would have been perceived the best before Maradona or Platini.
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Even if their level was pretty close on a consistent basis if you ask most people today who's the better player most will say Maradona, a player being consistently great means he'll always be remembered as a great player but then his legacy is what matters. And legacies are written in just a few games since the biggest competitions (european cup/Euros/World Cup) are decided in just a few games. It's why Ronaldo's 2017 was a lot better than his 2013, despite him not being able to be great as consistently.

Ask Messi if he'd trade 300 goals in La Liga for 1 goal in the 2014 WC final and he'd take it.
 
What defines neutral fans anyway?..Madrid and man utd are two of the most hated clubs in their respective countries.i to natural for other clubs to try and downplay their respective players achievement.
E.g pogba,loved and adored at juventus,came back to man utd and people started hating him and didn't like how he express himself anymore.
 
Peyroteo said:
Your opinion is an obvious fact so anyone that disagrees is wrong. But that's not enough so you also pretend that those that disagree don't exist.

If Platini outperforms everyone in the 1986 WC and wins it for France he'd most likely be remembered as the better player of the two so don't tell me how you rate Maradona has nothing to do with records or achievements. Comparing two careers isn't the same as comparing two player's attributes when they were at their peak, Maradona at 33 was done while Ronaldo will retire with about twice as many games played as Maradona while playing 99% of his career at the top level. That alone gives Ronaldo a pretty significant argument.

Not that I think Ronaldo's better, but how the hell can you say that Maradona was better is pretty obvious with such arrogance when they're entirely different players playing in entirely different eras of football and both dominated the sport for such a big amount of time? That's what I'll never understand and I know what you're saying is far from being an unpopular opinion but I'll just never understand it.

Even most of the older generation of Madrid fans put Ronaldo alongside Di Stefano as the greatest Madrid player ever, Benfica fans have pretty much stopped comparing him with Eusebio but you still have people that want to pretend he’s nowhere near being up there with the greatest ever.
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I don't see the problem. If someone genuinely believes Maradona to be definitely better than Messi/Ronaldo, what's the need to get so defensive about it and finding it do outrageous ? Unless he's not seen Maradona, it's a valid position given Maradona's standing is right at the top or thereabouts.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I don't see the problem. If someone genuinely believes Maradona to be definitely better than Messi/Ronaldo, what's the need to get so defensive about it and finding it do outrageous ? Unless he's not seen Maradona, it's a valid position given Maradona's standing is right at the top or thereabouts.
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Think my english might have failed me there. Finding Maradona better is obviously alright, treating as an obvious fact isn't. It's outrageous because he's making it seem like people are comparing Maradona to Heskey, not because he thinks Maradona is better.

amolbhatia50k said:
Doubt he's capable of destroying anyone.
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What is this supposed to mean? You have something to say, just say it. :nono:

SCP said:
@Peyroteo keep up destroying them :lol:
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Not destroying anyone, everyone can have their opinion. I've just never been on a thread where I've disagreed with so much in it and when I disagree with someone I usually say it. I'm from the north, can't help it :lol:
 
Pocho said:
That 40% he gets them from Madrid´s and United fans, there are plenty, not from neutral fans.
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I think that too. I don't know any single neutral person( not united or real fan) who thinks that ronaldo is better.
 
Tostao_80 said:
I’ve literally never heard anyone put Cristiano ahead of Maradona. As players (not records or achievements) it’s pretty obvious who stands taller.
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Records and impact are important or else everyone would say Brazilian Denilson is a better player than Ronaldo.
In both individual and team records C. Ronaldo towers over Maradona.

I will leave out team records because Ronaldo had a much better team around him.

Ronaldo > Maradona in:
Goals scored
Assists made
Player of the tournament
Team of the tournament
Top scorer of the tournament
World player of the year
Longevity

Maradona > Ronaldo in:
Won 1 world cup mostly by himself
Led an unfancied team to win 2 League titles
 
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