Do you think Pele will be mentioned in those discussions if he scored 300 goals in his career instead of over 1,000?
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Looks up the stats, Ronaldo’s finishing with his weak foot has gotten worse over the years, his conversion rate has gotten worse.
They are absolutely comparable in terms of weak foot, people keep thinking this is still 2013 Ronaldo.
How was he awful in those CL finals?
Messi on the other hand, WAS awful in all those finals with Argentina.
Did you not see his CL finals against Atletico? Absolute ghost. Compare Messi’s whoscored rating from his finals on average to Ronaldo’s Finals average and it’s no contest.
Ratings again? First it was assists+goals as if those things are identical and can be added up. Now ratings?
Ok now imagine they score the same number of goals or don't score at all - how would you decide who is the better player?
Would you consider other aspects of their game? Dare I say it - the quality of their passing?
The one who allows your team to play different tactics based on different oppositions?
The one who has the physical attributes to help out when defending?
Passing is ONE of many considerations, and before you mention it, so is dribbling, but those are NOT the only consideration.
Ronaldo is a limited player, albeit capable of reaching very high peaks within his limitations. He is extremely useful in the last third of the opponents half.
I think the discussion can be concluded by just imagining how many goals Ronaldo would score if he had Messi delivering to him.
I think the discussion can be concluded by just imagining how many goals Ronaldo would score if he had Messi delivering to him.
Why do people argue with Cal? You may as well engage in arguments against God's existence with your local bishop.
You say this but Messi has scored and assisted more than Ronaldo in over 150 less games.
Tap in goals or whatever you want to call them it doesn’t matter, but yes they are equally as important but the better player would be the one who on a fairly constant basis dribbled past a few players and scored. Because that is the harder thing to do.
If only the important goals mattered then Lingard would be the best player at United and Eder would have been voted the best player at the Euro’s, or Ramos would have won the Ballon D’or in 2014 for scoring in the 93rd minute of the CL final to take it to extra time.
What Messi does with a ball is better than what Ronaldo does with a ball, be it scoring goals, making assists, dribbling, passing, playmaking, creativity etc.
Over 29 Clasicos he's been a part of, CR has a grand total of 1 assist whereas during that same stretch of time the Clasico leader in goals & assists not only had 1 assist on Saturday but also created more goal scoring chances than any player in a single match of the Primera all season
There is no comparison
There is no comparison
Because he was nowhere near the needed standard outside of the box or at creating chances. Not the case with Ronaldo or even close to it at all, Ronaldo is much closer to Messi when it comes to dribbling and creating chances for his teammates than he is to Gerd Muller. And Gerd Muller still gets underrated by most in my opinion.
WhoScored ratings aren't a good barometer for a player's performance. Neither is conversion rate btw. Salah has a better conversion rate than Harry Kane in 2017 which says it all about that stat. Ronaldo was injured for both finals against Atletico Madrid too and he wasn't even bad in either, but you're right that he definitely still didn't do enough and deserves criticism for it.
Football is not just played when the ball is at a player's feet. Ronaldo's runs, his off the ball movement and his atheticism allow him to get first to the ball, to get higher than defenders, to get rid of his marker, to confuse the defense, to create spaces for his teammates and have resulted in plenty of goals, chances, assists, penalties won, corners, free kicks, etc.
When people talk about Messi playing in other leagues I don't think it's about him playing against different opposition. It's about taking him off the context where he's spent all of his career. The way Barcelona plays perfectly enables Messi to do what he's great at and avoids what he's not so good at. What better place for the most talented player on the ball ever (imo) to play than in a team that manages to have the ball for 80% of their games? He doesn't even have to run to get it back either which means at the end of games he has about 4 kms less on his legs than the defenders he's facing. Although it's an hypothetical I think it's fair to say Messi is definitely more suited to the technical style of football Barcelona and La Liga teams in general than he would be in a more physical and less possession based league.
I don't think it matters that much since criticizing players for hypotheticals is unfair but I just wanted to clear that up.
It's not just about the overall stats though, it's about when those goals or moments of magic come from. Messi's stats and moments of magic go massively down in the biggest stages in football (Champions League knockouts and international tournaments).
The way I see it Messi would have a bigger legacy if he had scored the chance below even if he had 200 less goals and 1000 through balls less. It's not just about what you can do or how consistently you do it, it's about peaking at the right time and what players do in the biggest moments as that's how you win the biggest competitions.
I'm not discussing if Messi is better than Ronaldo or otherwise, I'm discussing how we should judge the legacy of these great players in general since most people here seem to think about it completely differently than me. Greatness is achieved on the biggest stages, not by scoring 4 goals and making great passes against Malaga at home for the league. That's why there's no answer to the thread title until they retire or at the very least until after the next World Cup, if Ronaldo scores a hattrick every game at the World Cup with 7 10/10 performances and Portugal reach the final you can be sure he'll end up being regarded as the greatest of the two, as will Messi if the opposite happens.
Sorry for the long post, I'm going to abandon this thread until after the World Cup
You also conveniently left out the fact that Ronaldo holds the all time record of scoring in consecutive El Clasicos.
Whether he defends at all is the manager's choice, unless you think he ignores their decisions.
Messi versus Ronaldo comparisons are as pointless as it gets.
Secretly somewhere in the core of our minds we know the truth, and how it is usually not so good a feeling that my neighbors kid is smarter than my kid for example, but I will never admit to it that my kid isn't smarter, but somewhere my kid knows the other guy is smarter than he is, but for some reasons since there are awards for the best student in maths and it's presumed that the best student is the student that gets the highest score in maths and how mathematicians are a genius. Somewhere my kid envies the other kid seeing how he teaches the other kids and helps them with their homework. But as far as scores are concerned my kid is smarter.
It's laughable to think you can come to a united forum and actually expect people who compared mbappe to rashford to allow you be objective with your argument about Messi. I mean there is really no argument if you ask me.
Who scores more goals, probably Ronaldo. But being a footballer is not necessarily absolutely about scoring goals, Luca Toni would have been rated as a legend if that were the case.
Messi has shown to be able to excel in any position attacking wise, from CF, LWF, RWF, LAM, RAM now he's flirting with a central role and even excels at that
Our dear prodigal son who abandoned Manchester for the Glory of Madrid on the other hand for the last 3-4 seasons has had goals be his forte...
ask yourself ..
If I was a neutral who would I rather watch.
For me crucify me if you can.. Marcelo and Modric are better footballers than Ronaldo.. Isco is a joy to watch. Football is to entertain you which is why most machester united fans secretly adore machester city at the moment.
Take away Ronaldo's goals for the last 3 seasons and what's left? Probably Lord Bendtner, do so to Messi and he is still a LION!!
I am sure somewhere in the secret of Madridistaa if they had a choice between both I guess it will be Messi.
I personally I am Jealous that Barcelona has that sort of a god... might take a while to see a player like him.
Secretly somewhere in the core of our minds we know the truth, and how it is usually not so good a feeling that my neighbors kid is smarter than my kid for example, but I will never admit to it that my kid isn't smarter, but somewhere my kid knows the other guy is smarter than he is, but for some reasons since there are awards for the best student in maths and it's presumed that the best student is the student that gets the highest score in maths and how mathematicians are a genius. Somewhere my kid envies the other kid seeing how he teaches the other kids and helps them with their homework. But as far as scores are concerned my kid is smarter.
It's laughable to think you can come to a united forum and actually expect people who compared mbappe to rashford to allow you be objective with your argument about Messi. I mean there is really no argument if you ask me.
Who scores more goals, probably Ronaldo. But being a footballer is not necessarily absolutely about scoring goals, Luca Toni would have been rated as a legend if that were the case.
Messi has shown to be able to excel in any position attacking wise, from CF, LWF, RWF, LAM, RAM now he's flirting with a central role and even excels at that
Our dear prodigal son who abandoned Manchester for the Glory of Madrid on the other hand for the last 3-4 seasons has had goals be his forte...
ask yourself ..
If I was a neutral who would I rather watch.
For me crucify me if you can.. Marcelo and Modric are better footballers than Ronaldo.. Isco is a joy to watch. Football is to entertain you which is why most machester united fans secretly adore machester city at the moment.
Take away Ronaldo's goals for the last 3 seasons and what's left? Probably Lord Bendtner, do so to Messi and he is still a LION!!
I am sure somewhere in the secret of Madridistaa if they had a choice between both I guess it will be Messi.
I personally I am Jealous that Barcelona has that sort of a god... might take a while to see a player like him.
It's about preference of Style when it comes to choosing between Two.
If MESSI was so better ( according to whoever posted like that here ) then why we even have discussion ?? There is a reason why there is debate and that's because Cristiano is equally good ..Guy can shoot with equal venom from left or right foot ,good in air ,good with quick 1 touch passing ..decent passer , excellent crosser whenever he attempts ( doesn't attempt more nowdays ) ..excellent finisher .
Also both are equally efficient ....
If MESSI was so better ( according to whoever posted like that here ) then why we even have discussion ?? There is a reason why there is debate and that's because Cristiano is equally good ..Guy can shoot with equal venom from left or right foot ,good in air ,good with quick 1 touch passing ..decent passer , excellent crosser whenever he attempts ( doesn't attempt more nowdays ) ..excellent finisher .
Also both are equally efficient ....
The only reason you’re having the discussion is because this is a Manchester United forum. Ask every player/manager/pundit/journalist who the better player is and mostly all of them will say Messi. Unless they have connections to MUFC/Madrid/Portugal that is.
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If the earth is definitely round then why are there "flat earthers" I think the answer is because people are stupid
Kane is the better player, 54 goals this year.
normally it wouldn't be any discussion, the Ronaldo fans try to install the debate, Messi is the best player ever, Ronaldo is not in the discussion. He isn't the best player in the Madrid squad
Agreed.
Funny those player/manager/pundit/journalist voted Ronaldo the better player most of the last few years.
There we go again, Messi fans coming out with ludicrous statements. lol read your post again ..you are the one trying hard to even down Ronaldo further more ..he has been their best player for a decade now ..
There is definitely a debate and if anything there are fine margins between two but it's not worth discussing with someone like you who post Ronaldo is not best player in Madrid ..lol ..Please post something valid ..you like Messi is fair but your comment does not make any sense .
Its a pointless debate noone will ever be able to mention Messi without someone saying Ronaldo and its the same the other way round
Both sides will always feel they are right and thats fair enough the only people we know are wrong will be the ones saying their fave is the best ever
Both sides will always feel they are right and thats fair enough the only people we know are wrong will be the ones saying their fave is the best ever
Because there are a lot of us who feel it's really obvious and we try our best to convince the other side. That's really the only reason.
Wait, when was this ever the case? It was more to emphasize Messi's superiority and to stamp out any angle to say Ronaldo was superior. It wasn't a case of "trophies only matter."It's all so convenient with Messi fans, when Ronaldo scored more and Messi won the big trophies, it's the trophies that matter.
When their man bottles the CL consistently, it's now scoring against the Malagas of La Liga that matters more.
I think I know why Ronaldo fans like to use that to make the side that says Messi is better, worse. In 2011, Ronaldo had 60 goals while Messi had 59 goals. Ronaldo played 10 less matches to top it off. However, Messi won the Balon D'or for that calendar year. Why? Ronaldo fans argued that it was due to trophies that put Messi over the top. When Ronaldo had won a big title in 2012 and Messi didn't, it was hypocritical to them that now, Messi won the Balon D'or due to having more goals in the eyes of Ronaldo fans.
That is not true however. In 2012, Messi scored 28 more goals and had 8 more assists than Ronaldo. It wasn't simply a case of goal scoring. It was just that those goal contributions were vastly superior. In 2011, Messi had 1 less goal than Ronaldo, but also had 20 more assists. Ronaldo fans overlook that. Messi contributed to 19 more goals in 10 more matches apart from the CL title and La Liga title.
Again, Ronaldo fans always fail to take into account how much better Messi is in almost all parts of football. If anyone benefited from trophies, it's Ronaldo. Ronaldo was awful in the 2016 Champions League and he was understandably absent in the Euro finals. That's what got Ronaldo the award over Messi. You guys purely go on trophies, goals, and assists. Ronaldo actually almost had as many assists as Messi in 2017! However, we all know that Messi is just the better chance creator. The people on Messi's side, like me, are not just factoring in those 3 things. We're taking all of what they contribute into the discussion.
You guys simply don't take those other factors into the discussion which is why you stated goals are what matter. I will never agree to that. I think goals override those other qualities if they're that much more in quantity. This is how most of us compare footballers. There is the better footballer who is just the better overall attacker/player, but there are times when the goal scoring is just so much that you simply have to override the football superiority and hand the best player title to the goal scorer. This is how it's been historically. This is what's allowed Ronaldinho, Kaka, or others win their awards or were considered the overall best player. The goals by the goal scorers weren't enough to overcome their football inferiority. But in this discussion that is not the case because Messi also scores a huge number like Ronaldo, year in year out, all while also being vastly superior in almost every part of the sport.
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I think my opinion is as valid as yours, I'll take Modric any time if I had to pick one for my team. Ronaldo used to be the best player in Madrid, he is not anymore.
The real question should be who is better Ronaldo, Messi or Lingard?
How about just answering the question I asked instead of deflecting?
Nevermind, Peyroteo has answered it for you.
I agree that's not the case with Ronaldo, but when Messi is so much better than Ronaldo when it comes to dribbling, passing and creating chances and more or less equal when it comes to goalscoring then that's why he's clearly ahead for most people when it comes to these 'Greatest of all Time' discussions.
No one is claiming otherwise Peyroteo. It's just that the vast majority of people rate what the player can do with the ball at his feet higher, and rightfully so.
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We are just going round in circles now, let's summarize the Messi brigade:
1 Messi scores a bunch in a season without winning anything of note, Messi is better, cos goals...
2 Messi scores fewer in a seasons and wins the biggest trophies, Messi is better, cos trophies...
3 They score a similar number whilst Ronaldo won the big pots, Messi is better cos dribbling is all that matters...
4 Messi leading 4-1 on Ballon D'ors, Messi is clearly better, the football world agrees...
5 They are tied on 5-5, Messi is better, the football world is clueless...
6 Messi wins a final, Messi is better, cos big match...
7 Messi bottles a final/SF/QF, Messi is better, cos "somehow it's better to lose in the QF/SF than to make it to the final and not play well (despite winning)"...
Is that it?
How about a serious debate without crying and labeling people 'Messi brigade' it's just needless and petty. I'm a Barca fan and obviously in my view Messi is the GOAT which the majority seem to agree with but I can understand people preferring Ronaldo, especially what he achieved at United.
We can post stats, he won this, he won that but there's also another side to football, it's the beauty. A tap-in is equal to a mesmerizing run ending in a goal on paper but in terms of the beautiful game it's anything but equal. I watch football to enjoy it.
Anyways, the way I see it - Messi is a magician and Ronaldo is a machine.
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Well put, and I can respect that view, and Messi’s style is more aesthetically pleasing.
Personally I value the result more than the process and we can agree to disagree.
The Messi Brigade that I termed, was not aimed at people like you but those who cannot comprehend that there are different views in the world and think of their opinion as fact. Often the same people who come up with ludicrous views like R9 or Modric are better than Cristiano.
No. You really said nothing and it's typical of you to ignore the actual meaning of my post. Your 1 and 2 were already proven wrong by me and It's embarrassing that you continue on with it. Point out the 2 years that make you think points 1 and 2 were true.
The Muller comparison to Ronaldo was pretty apt. Cruyff was more talented but when it mattered, Muller scored the winning goal at the world cup while Cruyff on the other side left empty handed. This isn't exactly analogous as both Messi and Ronaldo are just as effective but in the real world, results matter the most, every single time. The first thing any coach would ask before picking a player is who can win him games, plain and simple. Doesn't matter how they do it.
Simple fact is if you break down what each player is good at and how well they do it Messi will come out on top in everything except heading and penalties
To stop Ronaldo being effective you cut the service to him, without service he has very little contributions to the team in a match
If you cut the service to Messi that's fine he will drop deep and get on the ball making plays happen from midfield
Ronaldo will offer pretty much nothing if his team is getting outplayed and is not receiving service
He played in a RM so dominant last season he did not need to worry about not having any service because they pretty much always won the midfield battle with the quality they had in midfield
Ronaldo has never been better than Messi since Messi established himself as a world class player he doesn't have the ability to get on the ball like Messi and make plays happen so no matter what he tries he simply can not be better than Messi at football since Messi has much more in his locker than Ronaldo does
He has had more successful seasons winning more than Messi has in some seasons but that doesn't make him a better player
To stop Ronaldo being effective you cut the service to him, without service he has very little contributions to the team in a match
If you cut the service to Messi that's fine he will drop deep and get on the ball making plays happen from midfield
Ronaldo will offer pretty much nothing if his team is getting outplayed and is not receiving service
He played in a RM so dominant last season he did not need to worry about not having any service because they pretty much always won the midfield battle with the quality they had in midfield
Ronaldo has never been better than Messi since Messi established himself as a world class player he doesn't have the ability to get on the ball like Messi and make plays happen so no matter what he tries he simply can not be better than Messi at football since Messi has much more in his locker than Ronaldo does
He has had more successful seasons winning more than Messi has in some seasons but that doesn't make him a better player
Maybe you can explain why he can't replicate his success with NT?
Chemistry
At Barcelona he knows exactly what run his team mates will make so can make one two passes with them to open up space and he can run into space. He is able to express himself much easier on the pitch with his club
With the NT I never see him make one two passes with his team mates because they are not on the same wave length as his team mates at Barcelona
It's really a case of his National team mates not being on his level of play so his play suffers due to them not understanding him and knowing where he is going to move and when he will release the ball to them etc etc
I don't watch much of Argentina play but from the little I have seen I would put it down to the chemistry seeing as they don't play to as high of a level as Barcelona would so with the little time he is together with the team he will have to play a different game than he is used to
So pretty much without service from his team, Messi can't do much either. Doesn't say much of your argument above.
Surely this applies more the Messi, considering Barca sported a GOAT midfield compared to just a very good Real midfield?
There is a difference between service and chemistry. If you can not understand something so basic I don't think I will engage in much more of a debate with you
Messi is part of the Barca midfield is he not? So when Barca win the midfield he is contributing to that midfield
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you should watch more of Argentina then rather than posting something which suits your opinion ..does Messi playing with Xavi/Iniesta from younger age helped him play better in Barcelona then and clearly had advantage over Ronaldo ? There are so many stupid points like this ( which many people bring it here in support of messi just to downplay ronaldo ) which can be made but that is not the point
Fact is Ronaldo has proven people wrong again and again over the time and that thing does not sit well with Messi fans ..
I liked what Cal replied in earlier thread ,Messis style is pleasing to eye and we can totally understand people who prefer him over Ronaldo for that reason but same people goes mental when some in this world prefer Ronaldo over Messi . I would rather put points on why you think someone is Goat than putting points on why someone is not ( Like Ronaldo is not this or that and cant do it this that ..certain things that either player do ,other player is not able to do do and that still does not make any difference ) ..
It all just boils down to preference of style ..Ronaldo has been equally or more efficient than Messi over the years and legitimate Goat candidate .
and for those people who thinks Dribbling is most important thing ..first of all Ronaldo has done that in past and he changed they style and on top of it ,if that was main criteria , what the hell likes of Hazard are not being discussed among messi and ronaldo ..reason is these 2 have done so many other things consistently that seperates them from other players and they both have differnt style .. I will agree that Ronaldo has cut down on Dribbling to larger extent in his later years at Madrid but that doesnn't make any difference .
you should watch more of Argentina then rather than posting something which suits your opinion ..does Messi playing with Xavi/Iniesta from younger age helped him play better in Barcelona then and clearly had advantage over Ronaldo ? There are so many stupid points like this ( which many people bring it here in support of messi just to downplay ronaldo ) which can be made but that is not the point
Fact is Ronaldo has proven people wrong again and again over the time and that thing does not sit well with Messi fans ..
I liked what Cal replied in earlier thread ,Messis style is pleasing to eye and we can totally understand people who prefer him over Ronaldo for that reason but same people goes mental when some in this world prefer Ronaldo over Messi . I would rather put points on why you think someone is Goat than putting points on why someone is not ( Like Ronaldo is not this or that and cant do it this that ..certain things that either player do ,other player is not able to do do and that still does not make any difference ) ..
It all just boils down to preference of style ..Ronaldo has been equally or more efficient than Messi over the years and legitimate Goat candidate .
and for those people who thinks Dribbling is most important thing ..first of all Ronaldo has done that in past and he changed they style and on top of it ,if that was main criteria , what the hell likes of Hazard are not being discussed among messi and ronaldo ..reason is these 2 have done so many other things consistently that seperates them from other players and they both have differnt style .. I will agree that Ronaldo has cut down on Dribbling to larger extent in his later years at Madrid but that doesnn't make any difference .
I would assume both are interlinked. With good chemistry comes good services. What's the point of having great chemistry is it doesn't translate into service?
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