There we go with the Messi brigade, dribbling is the be all and end all again.
Yeah imagine that - in a sport called FOOTball you get most people placing what a player can do with the ball at his feet on the highest of pedestals.
How very strange!
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Yeah imagine that - in a sport called FOOTball you get most people placing what a player can do with the ball at his feet on the highest of pedestals.
How very strange!
Ronaldo gets regarded as the greatest goalscorer of his generation, and people talk about him being the greatest goal scorer ever. But look at the stats, Messi has 587 career goals in 731 games and Ronaldo had 624 goals in 886 games. This means Messi has scored 37 less goals in 155 less games, so even though Ronaldo's main quality is his goal scoring, he isn't even better than Messi at that and has a vastly inferior shots per goal ratio. Then you have playmaking, passing, creative passing, dribbling etc.
Messi: Goals 587 Assists 238 Games 731
Ronaldo: Goals 624 Assists 202 Games 886
Messi has contributed to 825 goals and Ronaldo 826 goals. Ronaldo has only contributed to 1 more goals in 155 more games. Also Messi has contributed to 8 goals less than Ronaldo at international level in 24 less games, this is in competitive games by the way.
People use the cliche "but Ronaldo has proven it in England". Well here are a few facts to debunk this. Since Ronaldo went to La Liga, Messi has played 31 more games but scored 24 more goals and 51 more assists. Thus Messi has contributed to 611 goals to Ronaldo's 536.That is 75 more in 31 more games. If Messi couldn't do it in England then why is he doing better than Ronaldo in the same league as each other?
I seen a stat the other day, Ronaldo vs Arsenal, City, Chelsea and United has played 46 games scored 14 and got 6 assists. Messi vs these same teams has played 24 games, scored 17 and assisted 7. Messi thus has contributed to 4 more goals against these teams in 22 less games.
The only thing Ronaldo really has against Messi is stats, and Messi beats him in every category at that. Yes he is better in the air but that is because he is about 7 inches taller, and long shots but he takes a tonne of them to even score. Not to mention Ronaldo has always played closer to the goal than Messi, so he should be beating Messi in goals per games but he isn't.
People also say "Ronaldo scores more important goals than Messi. This is true but only in the last 3 years or so. People conveniently forget all the goals Mess has scored to help Barcelona win the CL 3 times. Not to mention Argentina have got to a fair few finals because of his goals.
Messi: Goals 587 Assists 238 Games 731
Ronaldo: Goals 624 Assists 202 Games 886
Messi has contributed to 825 goals and Ronaldo 826 goals. Ronaldo has only contributed to 1 more goals in 155 more games. Also Messi has contributed to 8 goals less than Ronaldo at international level in 24 less games, this is in competitive games by the way.
People use the cliche "but Ronaldo has proven it in England". Well here are a few facts to debunk this. Since Ronaldo went to La Liga, Messi has played 31 more games but scored 24 more goals and 51 more assists. Thus Messi has contributed to 611 goals to Ronaldo's 536.That is 75 more in 31 more games. If Messi couldn't do it in England then why is he doing better than Ronaldo in the same league as each other?
I seen a stat the other day, Ronaldo vs Arsenal, City, Chelsea and United has played 46 games scored 14 and got 6 assists. Messi vs these same teams has played 24 games, scored 17 and assisted 7. Messi thus has contributed to 4 more goals against these teams in 22 less games.
The only thing Ronaldo really has against Messi is stats, and Messi beats him in every category at that. Yes he is better in the air but that is because he is about 7 inches taller, and long shots but he takes a tonne of them to even score. Not to mention Ronaldo has always played closer to the goal than Messi, so he should be beating Messi in goals per games but he isn't.
People also say "Ronaldo scores more important goals than Messi. This is true but only in the last 3 years or so. People conveniently forget all the goals Mess has scored to help Barcelona win the CL 3 times. Not to mention Argentina have got to a fair few finals because of his goals.
Any player significantly associated with a rival gets booed around here. If the likes of Moutinho, Simão, Quaresma, even Figo, reacted the same way as Ronaldo did, they'd get similar treatment. Most players just ignore it though. I do admit Ronaldo was disliked more than other players, but he's only got himself to blame for that. That photo you posted, and the way he reacted in the post-match interview against Porto are the reason why he was disliked for so long, on top of things like his classic "people envy me because I'm rich, pretty and score lots of goals" which just portrayed him as an idiot.
Ronaldo has matured a lot (as a person, in PR terms, etc) since those times, and he slowly conquered the majority of the Portuguese. I don't know which people you talk to, but the majority of people I know have huge admiration for his feats and don't hate him at all. People thinking Messi is better has nothing to do with them hating Ronaldo (though if they do, of course they will be biased).
Remarkably, Eder and Higuain have had a massive influence on this 'debate'.
If Higuain had scored in 2014 and Eder hadn't scored in 2016 (as would be expected), then there (rightly) wouldn't be this debate anymore!
Prediction: Messi will end this debate in the 2018 World Cup for good.
If Higuain had scored in 2014 and Eder hadn't scored in 2016 (as would be expected), then there (rightly) wouldn't be this debate anymore!
Prediction: Messi will end this debate in the 2018 World Cup for good.
Yep recency bias.
Its at best even now, but Messi might be still ahead over their career. And thats just talking about scoring important goals.
Indeed, some people talk as if goalscoring is just a side product of football rather than the main aim of the game.Yeah imagine that - in a sport called FOOTball you get most people placing what a player can do with the ball at his feet on the highest of pedestals.
How very strange!
There we go with the Messi brigade, dribbling is the be all and end all again.
Ok imagine you're the school football team coach and need to choose between two kids for one spot. There are no statistics or Ballon D'ors to rely on - you simply have to watch them play to decide who's better. How would you do it?
Well, it's not like Messi needs to train his right, he scores the same or more amount of goals as ronaldo, maybe if ronaldo hadn't trained his weaker foot he would score quite less.
There we go again, Messi fans insisting to include their entire careers just to make Ronaldo look bad. Messi was a better player at a younger age than Ronaldo, as well as playing for a much more dominating side in Barca.
Exactly the stuff that the Messi brigade like to use to distort the stats, we all know Ronaldo played for a few years as a winger for a United side in transition back then, whereas Messi has been the big favourite in every game against those teams. Why don't we compare their records against Bayern?
The one who scores more?
So if you look at their career and average goal / assist per minute; Messi?
Eureka, we’ve solved the debate.
/thread
There we go again, Messi fans insisting to include their entire careers just to make Ronaldo look bad. Messi was a better player at a younger age than Ronaldo, as well as playing for a much more dominating side in Barca.
Exactly the stuff that the Messi brigade like to use to distort the stats, we all know Ronaldo played for a few years as a winger for a United side in transition back then, whereas Messi has been the big favourite in every game against those teams. Why don't we compare their records against Bayern?
Of course we should look at their entire careers!
The debate over whose career is better/who is the greatest necessitates the inclusion of their whole career. You can't just brush off their previous years as irrelevant in this debate. Messi was better at a younger age, as you admit, and this IS RELEVANT.
Besides, if we were looking at current ability then El Classico demonstrated Messi's superiority.
(P.S: I need one more like to post on match day forums, help me out someone )
There we go again, Messi fans insisting to include their entire careers just to make Ronaldo look bad. Messi was a better player at a younger age than Ronaldo, as well as playing for a much more dominating side in Barca.
Exactly the stuff that the Messi brigade like to use to distort the stats, we all know Ronaldo played for a few years as a winger for a United side in transition back then, whereas Messi has been the big favourite in every game against those teams. Why don't we compare their records against Bayern?
So Messi was better at a youger age, and has been a great player for his whole career, surely that in itself should be considered as part of the debate of who is the better player throughout their careers.
The point I made was that it is a myth that Messi hasn’t proved himself in 2 leagues, when he has ridiculous stats against the big PL clubs.
If you read my whole post without bias then you can’t even argue about the facts. Forget when they were young, even when Ronaldo moved to La Liga Messi still has better stats. How can you argue about that?
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Cal always loyalty cr7, that’s how!
Being better at a younger age doesn't make him overall the better player.
I've not denied that Messi has had a better 17/18, but over the entire 2017, Ronaldo is well ahead.
not sure if serious jajajThere we go again, Messi fans insisting to include their entire careers just to make Ronaldo look bad. Messi was a better player at a younger age than Ronaldo, as well as playing for a much more dominating side in Barca.
Exactly the stuff that the Messi brigade like to use to distort the stats, we all know Ronaldo played for a few years as a winger for a United side in transition back then, whereas Messi has been the big favourite in every game against those teams. Why don't we compare their records against Bayern?
The Messi vs Ronaldo arguments never cease to amuse me. Let's be real with ourselves though, Messi at his best is on another level.
It's all so convenient with Messi fans, when Ronaldo scored more and Messi won the big trophies, it's the trophies that matter.
When their man bottles the CL consistently, it's now scoring against the Malagas of La Liga that matters more.
If we are just going to post random gifs.
Change this to Ronaldo vs Messi vs Kane.
Oh come on, are you seriously equating Messi's right foot to Ronaldo's left? Ronaldo is like KDB, has a bullet of a shot on his left while Messi simply doesnt have as good a shot in his right.
It's all so convenient with Messi fans, when Ronaldo scored more and Messi won the big trophies, it's the trophies that matter.
When their man bottles the CL consistently, it's now scoring against the Malagas of La Liga that matters more.
Oh my god this shit-slinging is so childish. If anyone disagrees with you, you label them as fanboys or a brigade with some kind of agenda against Ronaldo. They aren't teams they're players, no one is just a supporter for just one player only (Although you're making a fair effort of it.) Your posts in this thread reminds of a kid getting cross when someone says their favourite favourite superhero is better than your favourite superhero. I think Messi is better than Ronaldo and I have a similar affinity for both of them. But that makes me part of the Messi 'brigade' I suppose...
That's the main aim for the team - to score more than the opposition.
Here we are discussing the merits and attributes of individual players and the vast majority of people place what a player can do with the ball at his feet (dribbling, passing, shooting etc) over other facets. The sport is called football after all.
Messi
Kane
Ronaldo
Kane
Ronaldo
Found it shocking that Kane now has more calendar goals and in fewer matches than both Messi and Ronaldo.
Since when was measuring via calendar year a thing? Performance over the course of a season means far more.
It's all so convenient with Messi fans, when Ronaldo scored more and Messi won the big trophies, it's the trophies that matter.
When their man bottles the CL consistently, it's now scoring against the Malagas of La Liga that matters more.
For one I am not a “Messi fan” and two I always thought Ronaldo was the better player until I started watching Barca and Real play the majority of the time they are playing.
The only player I have ever watched and thought wow, was Ronaldinho until Messi came along. Ronaldo doesn’t do that, he is a goal scorer and a goal scorer alone. How many tap in’s has Ronaldo scored in comparison to Messi, I can’t find any stats on that but I would imagine it is a lot.
I just don’t understand how anyone who actually watches football without rose tinted spectacles would think Ronaldo is better than Messi.
It's all so convenient with Messi fans, when Ronaldo scored more and Messi won the big trophies, it's the trophies that matter.
When their man bottles the CL consistently, it's now scoring against the Malagas of La Liga that matters more.
That's YOUR argument to defend Ronaldo, is it not? When Messi was winning more trophies and scoring more goals, YOU said it was only because Barca were so good that Messi was being carried, Ronaldo was doing it on his own (and not in the most expensively assembled squad in world football at the time). When Messi was winning more trophies, but Ronaldo was scoring more, YOU said goals are all that matters. Last season, when Ronaldo scored less and assisted less, but won more trophies whilst being in the better team, YOU said Ronaldo was better because of the trophies his team won. You also keep using the world Bottled as if it means anything, it's hard to criticize Messi for not scoring in the semi or final if his team doesn't get there. They've won the same amount of CL trophies, have they not?
I also think league performances are relevant, the majority of a player's football will be in league form. League titles matter as much as cups do, after all.
It can be called anything and scoring goals in the most important matches is the most important thing.
A perfectly timed run to score a "tap-in" is worth just as much as dribbling past 5 players and slotting it in.
I just don't understand why Messi fans insist on this patronizing tone when they know full well that there is a sizable portion of the world who do not agree with them.
There we go again, Messi fans insisting to include their entire careers just to make Ronaldo look bad. Messi was a better player at a younger age than Ronaldo, as well as playing for a much more dominating side in Barca.
Exactly the stuff that the Messi brigade like to use to distort the stats, we all know Ronaldo played for a few years as a winger for a United side in transition back then, whereas Messi has been the big favourite in every game against those teams. Why don't we compare their records against Bayern?
I love your reasoning and how you call people distorting facts when you're indeed the biggest offender at that.
When we talk about UCL performances you always disregard Messi's role in the 2006 UCL because he "only" played in 6 games and got injured vs Chelsea. But when we talk about entire careers then you use the argument that Ronaldo had it harder in the beggining and Messi was fitted and nurtured into a dominant side.
Throw silverware into the argument and how he was spoon-fed into greatness by a great team that won more titles than United earlier at his career, but disregard that:
He played 75' in 7 games on his first league title, scoring just 1 goal, most of those 75' came vs Levante (32') so you can imagine the amount of time he got in the other 6 games
Played 777' in his second league title, 6 goals in 17 games, his season stopped in March with that "dominant" side
Won no major trophies in the next two seasons.
Then, we get Ronaldo playing for perennial underdogs Manchester United
, so let's compare their first 5 professional seasons, which they ended at barely the same age.League
Messi: 7.696 minutes, 54 goals, 29 assists
Ronaldo: 11.796 minutes, 72 goals, 38 assists
UCL
Messi: 2.450 minutes, 17 goals, 9 assists
Ronaldo: 3.276 minutes, 11 goals, 6 assists
Trophies
Messi: 3 league titles, 2 UCL, 1 Cup
Ronaldo: 2 league titles, 1 UCL, 1 FA Cup, 3 League Cups
In their first 5 years Ronaldo got 5k more minutes between League and UCL games, yet you find important to point out that Messi had it easier because his team won 3 titles with him playing an added of 1.222 minutes over two seasons, when Ronaldo had that amount of playing time by January of his first season.
Ignore that Messi played garbage time on his first league title, or that he was out for the season by March in the second one (where he was still playing less time than Ronaldo in his first United season), don't mention that Barcelona sucked for 2 years after that and yeah, once you disregard all those facts Messi played for a better team than Ronaldo on his first seasons
, but then you will come back next March to tell the Messi brigade that he was a non-factor in the 2006 UCL run, like we're the only ones trying to make Ronaldo look bad in his early years, and you are fair in every situation.I'm sorry that you missed Leo's first 4 seasons where he played as a winger (not really your fault, since he was getting way fewer minutes than Cris, it was actually harder to watch him in action), but it's not Leo or Barcelona's fault that Messi broke through the 15 goals ceiling in his second season (as a inverted winger) and it took Ronaldo 4 seasons to do that while playing more minutes.
Messi took the lead of Barcelona with big minutes in his 3rd and 4th seasons, where Barcelona got a total of 143 points, 0 titles and he scored 33 goals
Ronaldo's United in his 3rd & 4th seasons got 172 points, with Ronaldo scoring 35 goals.
So tell me, is it really fair to say Leo had it easier earlier because he got fringe minutes in a League title and was a role player in another League + UCL title, when by the time he was put in the same position as Cristiano (3th & 4th seasons) he was performing at a similar level, with a team that was 15 points per season worse and failed to win a title?. Doesn't seem fair judgement to me
League titles matter more than domestic cups, but nowhere near the Champions League, surely that's not up for debate.
Because that sizable portion of the world are the same ones that were supporting these arguments
So, obviously, if they were defending that Robinho was at the same level as Messi, and even Robben's Real Madrid version, there had to be people putting Ronaldo with him
Even if they don't belong in the same tier beyond stats, as I always said Müller never was in the talk against Pele, Maradona or Cruyff despite him outscoring them and winning more trophies, there's a reason for that, but some of you kind of miss the point about which things made Leo the best player in the world for a lot of people.
That sums up why any further interaction that people have with you on this thread is utterly pointless and a complete waste of time.
The point is Ronaldo played many more games at a younger age as a winger, hence a relatively poor scoring record. His first 3 seasons, 121 games with 20 goals. That seriously distorts his overall scoring record.I love your reasoning and how you call people distorting facts when you're indeed the biggest offender at that.
When we talk about UCL performances you always disregard Messi's role in the 2006 UCL because he "only" played in 6 games and got injured vs Chelsea. But when we talk about entire careers then you use the argument that Ronaldo had it harder in the beggining and Messi was fitted and nurtured into a dominant side.
Throw silverware into the argument and how he was spoon-fed into greatness by a great team that won more titles than United earlier at his career, but disregard that:
He played 75' in 7 games on his first league title, scoring just 1 goal, most of those 75' came vs Levante (32') so you can imagine the amount of time he got in the other 6 games
Played 777' in his second league title, 6 goals in 17 games, his season stopped in March with that "dominant" side
Won no major trophies in the next two seasons.
Then, we get Ronaldo playing for perennial underdogs Manchester United
League
Messi: 7.696 minutes, 54 goals, 29 assists
Ronaldo: 11.796 minutes, 72 goals, 38 assists
UCL
Messi: 2.450 minutes, 17 goals, 9 assists
Ronaldo: 3.276 minutes, 11 goals, 6 assists
Trophies
Messi: 3 league titles, 2 UCL, 1 Cup
Ronaldo: 2 league titles, 1 UCL, 1 FA Cup, 3 League Cups
In their first 5 years Ronaldo got 5k more minutes between League and UCL games, yet you find important to point out that Messi had it easier because his team won 3 titles with him playing an added of 1.222 minutes over two seasons, when Ronaldo had that amount of playing time by January of his first season.
Ignore that Messi played garbage time on his first league title, or that he was out for the season by March in the second one (where he was still playing less time than Ronaldo in his first United season), don't mention that Barcelona sucked for 2 years after that and yeah, once you disregard all those facts Messi played for a better team than Ronaldo on his first seasons
I'm sorry that you missed Leo's first 4 seasons where he played as a winger (not really your fault, since he was getting way fewer minutes than Cris, it was actually harder to watch him in action), but it's not Leo or Barcelona's fault that Messi broke through the 15 goals ceiling in his second season (as a inverted winger) and it took Ronaldo 4 seasons to do that while playing more minutes.
Messi took the lead of Barcelona with big minutes in his 3rd and 4th seasons, where Barcelona got a total of 143 points, 0 titles and he scored 33 goals
Ronaldo's United in his 3rd & 4th seasons got 172 points, with Ronaldo scoring 35 goals.
So tell me, is it really fair to say Leo had it easier earlier because he got fringe minutes in a League title and was a role player in another League + UCL title, when by the time he was put in the same position as Cristiano (3th & 4th seasons) he was performing at a similar level, with a team that was 15 points per season worse and failed to win a title?. Doesn't seem fair judgement to me
Messi getting injured all the time when he was younger meant he played fewer games when his scoring was nowhere near 1 to 1
Football is about results, not aesthetically pleasing.
This is a discussion about individual players.
Yet all of you lot miss the point why many others disagree.
So which players does more to get the results?
Do you ever see Gerd Muller's name mentioned in 'Greatest of all Time' discussions? If not, why not?
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