Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think that people who are into counting cup trophies and goal stats aren't actually interested in football. Cup competitions are hugely overvalued, and not a great indicator of quality. Surely, there are some distinct qualities such as strength of will and decisiveness that can play an important role in that type of competition. But in the end, too much boils down to sheer chance and randomness. League titles have more weight and provide a genuine evidence of a quality of a team.

It's not all about goals or grinding a win in this or that all important final, at any cost. And when it comes to goals, Messi would be scoring even more, if he was all about scoring, and not playmaking. And maybe that would be a more pragmatic and opportunistic choice in some of those big finals and knockout ties. But that's what makes him even more brilliant and admirable in my eyes, in addition to his unparalleled talent. Definitely, he wants to win, but his game is more about genuine playfulness and joy than winning at all costs. That is the essence of football for me.
 
Last edited:
Peyroteo said:
From the last 2 years. Wolfsburg at home, Napoli at home, Bayern away, Atletico at home and Hungary during the Euros. CL final and the Euros semifinal to a lesser extent.
Click to expand...

If your club could get either on loan for a year today...... which one would you have?? Surely you have to concede Messi is currently the better player. Currently the best player in the world?? Not who won a daft award. Who'd be more beneficial to your team today
 
Cal? said:
Seriously? You’re seriously claiming Messi had a bette CL campaign in 16/17 than Ronaldo? :lol:

As for so called chance created, that’s even more arbitrary than ‘assists’, does tapping the ball 2 yards to someone to knock it in from 40 yards count as ‘chance created’?
Click to expand...
I never said that and certainly didn't imply that

I was just explaining why Messi's average rating is higher despite not scoring as many goals as Ronaldo

Goals aren't the end all and be all to determine how good a player is

Football is about the whole package and not just one particular area

Messi is a better well rounded footballer than Ronaldo so he can cover more area's where as Ronaldo's main area is in and around the box with one or two touches

Ronaldo can't affect the game outside the box as much as Messi can so I would assume that's why he has a higher average rating than Ronaldo
 
I’d love to see them both on the same team before they retire. Maybe an MLS franchise can make it happen when they’re touching 40. That would be insane :drool:
 
Gareth williams said:
If your club could get either on loan for a year today...... which one would you have?? Surely you have to concede Messi is currently the better player. Currently the best player in the world?? Not who won a daft award. Who'd be more beneficial to your team today
Click to expand...

I'd take Messi because we would have no chance of winning the Champions League anyway. But if I was PSG or Bayern who'd win the league with either I'd 100% take Ronaldo over Messi and I wouldn't trade Ronaldo for Messi for the World Cup either. So it would depend on other players and the goals of the team, even if Messi's been the better player so far this season.
 
Stocar said:
I think that people who are into counting cup trophies and goal stats aren't actually interested in football. Cup competitions are hugely overvalued, and not a great indicator of quality. Surely, there are some distinct qualities such as strength of will and decisiveness that can play an important role in that type of competition. But in the end, too much boils down to sheer chance and randomness. League titles have more weight and provide a genuine evidence of a quality of a team.

It's not all about goals or grinding a win in this or that all important final, at any cost. And whenit comes to goals, Messi would be score even more if he was all about scoring, and not playmaking. And maybe that would be a more pragmatic and opportunistic choice in some of those big finals and knockout ties. But that's what makes him even more brilliant and admirable in my eyes, in addition to his unparalleled talent. Definitely, he wants to win, but his game is more about genuine playfulness and joy than winning at all costs. That is the essence of football for me.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is.
 
Jaybomb said:
I’d love to see them both on the same team before they retire. Maybe an MLS franchise can make it happen when they’re touching 40. That would be insane :drool:
Click to expand...
Ronaldo would score like 80 goals in a season and Messi would have about 50 assists

They really would get the best out of each other in my opinion

If Ronaldo had of went to Barcelona they would have probably been unstoppable
 
Next year's World Cup is going to have a big impact on their legacies when compared to each other

Both are obviously undisputed all time greats of course.

Messi is the better player, but Ronaldo has dragged himself into the conversation through an insatiable appetite and mental determination to win.

The way I see their respective careers (rating out of 10 in terms of their own godly high standards, with 10 up there with the best season performance of all time)

2007/8 - Ronaldo 9/10, Messi 7/10
2008/9 - Ronaldo 7.5/10, Messi 9/10
2009/10 - Ronaldo 8/10, Messi 9/10
2010/11 - Ronaldo 9/10, Messi 10/10
2011/12 - Ronaldo 10/10, Messi 10/10
2012/13 - Ronaldo 9/10, Messi 9.5/10
2013/14 - Ronaldo 9/10, Messi 7.5/10
2014/15 - Ronaldo 9.5/10, Messi 10.5/10 (The rating may seem silly, but for me this was the best season by any player I've ever seen, he was the complete player. Messi's performances vs City and Bayern are, for me, the pinnacle of football from a purely performance point of view (ignoring context)).
2015/16 - Ronaldo 9/10, Messi 8/10
2016/17 - Ronaldo 9.5/10, Messi 9/10

Totals: Ronaldo 89.5/100

Messi 89.5/100

For me, this demonstrates a few things:

1) Their consistency has been UNBELIEVABLE.
2) Messi reached a (slightly) higher absolute peak
3) 2011/12 was a season where both were at a frighteningly good level
4) In my opinion, the Ballon D'or count should be 6-4 in favour of Messi. Most of the awards have been fair, but in 2013 I feel that Messi should have got the award - however after 4 years of Messi I think everyone felt it was time Ronaldo got one again

I am not a Messi or Ronaldo fanboy, these are just my thoughts. Let me know what you guys think!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Messi is a better footballer and has more impact on play than Ronaldo. I always take Ronaldo's side when thinking about who's better (biased on the Utd connection). But I woken up and Messi is simply a better footballer no doubt about it.
Whether or not Messi would do it in another club is another debate.
 
fezzerUTD said:
Messi is a better footballer and has more impact on play than Ronaldo. I always take Ronaldo's side when thinking about who's better (biased on the Utd connection). But I woken up and Messi is simply a better footballer no doubt about it.
Whether or not Messi would do it in another club is another debate.
Click to expand...
People seem to confuse goal scoring with being a better footballer

Since Ronaldo changed his game to be a goalscorer he has somehow convinced the masses that it's a debate

Ronaldo simply doesn't come close to Messi as a footballer and falls quite short comparing him to other great players of the game but because he's banging them in he has dragged the debate on

Fair play to him for doing it but anyone who watches both players play has to see the difference between them
 
It's such an easy call when you take out that Ronaldo played for United.

Messi is far the superior footballer. The man is just magical.
 
Question for Cal, SirAF and Peyroteo; do you think Lampard was better than Xavi, Iniesta or Modric?

Genuinely curious as to what the answer would be. And if not, I'm guessing it would be that despite Lampard's superior goalscoring record, the others were simply far better footballers than him and if so, why do you not apply the same reasoning when it comes to Messi v Ronaldo?
 
Pink Moon said:
Question for Cal, SirAF and Peyroteo; do you think Lampard was better than Xavi, Iniesta or Modric?

Genuinely curious as to what the answer would be. And if not, I'm guessing it would be that despite Lampard's superior goalscoring record, the others were simply far better footballers than him and if so, why do you not apply the same reasoning when it comes to Messi v Ronaldo?
Click to expand...

Xavi, Iniesta and Modric are better than Lampard because they've outperformed him consistently in the league/cup, in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally. Ronaldo's at the very least at the same level as Messi because despite Messi consistently performing better in the league and cup he's performed better than Messi both in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally throughout the whole of their careers. In my opinion at least since there's no point arguing about it again.

If Messi has an historically great World Cup in Russia while Ronaldo flops then I'd have no problem putting Messi ahead.
 
Last edited:
Peyroteo said:
Xavi, Iniesta and Modric are better than Lampard because they've outperformed him consistently in the league/cup, in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally. Ronaldo's at the very least at the same level as Messi because despite Messi consistently performing better in the league and cup he's performed better than Messi both in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally throughout the whole of their careers. In my opinion at least since there's no point arguing about it again.

If Messi has an historically great World Cup in Russia while Ronaldo flops then I'd have no problem putting Messi ahead.
Click to expand...
How did Ronaldo performed better than Messi internationally?
 
i've met ronaldo fans trying to convince me he is more down to earth than messi :)
 
Peyroteo said:
Xavi, Iniesta and Modric are better than Lampard because they've outperformed him consistently in the league/cup, in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally. Ronaldo's at the very least at the same level as Messi because despite Messi consistently performing better in the league and cup he's performed better than Messi both in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally throughout the whole of their careers. In my opinion at least since there's no point arguing about it again.

If Messi has an historically great World Cup in Russia while Ronaldo flops then I'd have no problem putting Messi ahead.
Click to expand...
What does Messi have to do to perform better in the league and cup? Is it just goals that matter to you? Note that this isn't based on last season where I felt like Ronaldo was better in the CL knockout stages. I'm curious to know what Messi needs to do to be better than Ronaldo in the league and cup.

That's where people rate Messi as better. Messi isn't just a goal scorer. I don't know why people like you reduce Messi down to a goal scorer when he does everything. He breaks down defenses and attracts more defenders to him with his dribbling. He splits the defense open with his passing. He provides everyone a passing outlet with his close control and his calmness when under pressure.

And he scores goals.

What does it mean to you to outperform someone? How do you judge someone like Zidane or Iniesta who don't score a lot of goals?
 
Last edited:
In Rainbows said:
What does Messi have to do to perform better in the league and cup? Is it just goals that matter to you? Note that this isn't based on last season where I felt like Ronaldo was better in the CL knockout stages. I'm curious to know what Messi needs to do to be better than Ronaldo in the league and cup.
Click to expand...

He has to perform better than him in those competitions and he has done so for most of his career. A lot of things go into how you judge a player's performance, obviously a lot more than the ammount of goals a player scores.

I haven't reduced Messi to being just a goalscorer at all, no idea where you got that idea from.
 
Peyroteo said:
He has to perform better than him in those competitions and he has done so for most of his career. A lot of things go into how you judge a player's performance, obviously a lot more than the ammount of goals a player scores.

I haven't reduced Messi to being just a goalscorer at all, no idea where you got that idea from.
Click to expand...
You have yet to explain what that means. You just say Ronaldo does so without explaining it. You do the same in the hypothetical relating Modric, Iniesta, Lampard, and Zidane.

Vialli_92 said:
People seem to confuse goal scoring with being a better footballer

Since Ronaldo changed his game to be a goalscorer he has somehow convinced the masses that it's a debate
Click to expand...
I think that Ronaldo scores so much that what he provides is greater than what previous Balon D'or winners provided. In the past, the playmakers or overall best attackers had to compete with goal scorers that scored from 30-40 goals. Ronaldinho, Zidane, Figo, or Kaka would score from 8-20 or so goals and combined with their overall superior ability won the award as the best footballer. Ronaldo scores 50+ so he edged those very same overall best attackers who used to win the award. In that sense, Ronaldo's goal scoring should be valued very highly and it's easy to see why he's a great candidate for the award.

However, what ended up happening is that people started to equate Messi as only a goal scorer and so forget that he's the package of both heavyweights (+more) competing for the older Balon D'ors. He's both the goal scorer that Ronaldo is, and the best overall attacker that used to win that award combined.

People that support Ronaldo these days scoff at the idea that dribbling is important even though they know full well how important dribbling is when breaking down a defense. We used to see it with United Ronaldo, and we see it with Hazard at Chelsea. We see it with Martial and Rashford to an extent these days. They also reduce creativity with assists even though we know full well that breaking down a defense doesn't always end up as an assist or that it takes the finisher to make that assist count. We saw it with Pogba last season with United where he put a lot of chances on a plate, but they never ended up as an assist. This is why the Ronaldo fans think Ronaldo created just as much chances as Messi when we all know that isn't true.

I've already started to see the Ronaldo > Messi big game narrative where fans cite goals scored when it was just 3 seasons ago that Messi was brilliant against Juventus in the CL final despite not scoring a goal.
 
Last edited:
Pocho said:
How did Ronaldo performed better than Messi internationally?
Click to expand...

Did you miss the "In my opinion at least since there's no point arguing about it again."?

You can search this thread where I've discussed it at length.

In Rainbows said:
What does it mean to you to outperform someone? How do you judge someone like Zidane or Iniesta who don't score a lot of goals?
Click to expand...

It depends on the team they're playing for, their opponents, their role for that game, etc...

I don't know how to answer that question exactly. There isn't a specific formula to how someone should judge a player's performance in football.
 
In Rainbows said:
You have yet to explain what that means. You just say Ronaldo does so without explaining it. You do the same in the hypothetical relating Modric, Iniesta, Lampard, and Zidane.
Click to expand...

How do I explain that? It's impossible. There isn’t a formula in football that tells you a player has performed better than another. Talking about the CL knockouts. He's scored more, assisted more, scored bigger goals in bigger moments and in my opinion played a decisive part in a bigger amount of matches throughout their careers.

Messi might score as much as Ronaldo in the league and in the cup but the biggest competition in club football is the Champions League and in the decisive matches of the Champions League he doesn't score nearly as much as Ronaldo and imo overall through their whole careers he’s performed worse. You can disagree with that, I’m just giving my opinion.
 
Peyroteo said:
How do I explain that? It's impossible. There isn’t a formula in football that tells you a player has performed better than another. Talking about the CL knockouts. He's scored more, assisted more, scored bigger goals in bigger moments and in my opinion played a decisive part in a bigger amount of matches throughout their careers.

Messi might score as much as Ronaldo in the league and in the cup but the biggest competition in club football is the Champions League and in the decisive matches of the Champions League he doesn't score nearly as much as Ronaldo and imo overall through their whole careers he’s performed worse. You can disagree with that, I’m just giving my opinion.
Click to expand...
I think that's wrong. If we just look at the CL alone Messi was brilliant in 3 of the CL finals 2009, 2011, and 2015. Meanwhile I don't think Ronaldo was good in the CL finals of 2009, 2014, and 2016. Ronaldo was great in 2008 and 2017. I also believe Ronaldo was better in the CL knockout stages last year, but I don't believe Ronaldo is better most years in the CL despite his goal scoring records because I think Messi provides more value outside of his goal scoring.

And it's not impossible to explain. How do you explain Iniesta being better than Lampard? Surely there is something apart from goals that make you think that?
 
In Rainbows said:
I think that's wrong. If we just look at the CL alone Messi was brilliant in 3 of the CL finals 2009, 2011, and 2015. Meanwhile I don't think Ronaldo was good in the CL finals of 2009, 2014, and 2016. Ronaldo was great in 2008 and 2017. I also believe Ronaldo was better in the CL knockout stages last year, but I don't believe Ronaldo is better most years in the CL despite his goal scoring records because I think Messi provides more value outside of his goal scoring.

And it's not impossible to explain. How do you explain Iniesta being better than Lampard? Surely there is something apart from goals that make you think that?
Click to expand...
Thinking Lampard-Iniesta is a valid analogy to Ronaldo-Messi is borderline wumming.
 
Moby said:
Thinking Lampard-Iniesta is a valid analogy to Ronaldo-Messi is borderline wumming.
Click to expand...
Well the relationship between Lampard and Iniesta isn't meant to say Messi is Iniesta while Ronaldo is Lampard. That much is obvious. It's meant to gauge what these posters value in regards to performance. Messi is a better footballer than Ronaldo in every facet apart from heading, penalties, and off the ball movement. Messi is the better dribbler. Messi is the better playmaker. He's the better passing option to help your midfield fight off pressing. He's better at keeping possession. He's the better passer. He's currently better at freekicks which is just another way of scoring.

This is what watching the two play tells us. There are statistics that show this like dribbling stats, passing stats, chance created stats (which is flawed), etc... Ronaldo fans end up dismissing this and point out goals and assists even though Messi is often putting up the very same end product. So why would I believe Messi doesn't outperform Ronaldo?
 
In Rainbows said:
What does Messi have to do to perform better in the league and cup? Is it just goals that matter to you? Note that this isn't based on last season where I felt like Ronaldo was better in the CL knockout stages. I'm curious to know what Messi needs to do to be better than Ronaldo in the league and cup.

That's where people rate Messi as better. Messi isn't just a goal scorer. I don't know why people like you reduce Messi down to a goal scorer when he does everything. He breaks down defenses and attracts more defenders to him with his dribbling. He splits the defense open with his passing. He provides everyone a passing outlet with his close control and his calmness when under pressure.

And he scores goals.

What does it mean to you to outperform someone? How do you judge someone like Zidane or Iniesta who don't score a lot of goals?
Click to expand...
That’s obvious, he should be from Portugal.
 
Peyroteo said:
Ronaldo's at the very least at the same level as Messi because despite Messi consistently performing better in the league and cup he's performed better than Messi both in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally throughout the whole of their careers. In my opinion at least since there's no point arguing about it again.
Click to expand...
This got me curious. Cris has scored 53 goals to Messi's 37 in the KO rounds. Messi clearly outperformed him in CL in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2015. Cris clearly outperformed Messi in 2007, 2014, 2016 and 2017. 2008, 2012, 2013 are a bit more complex and close to call

Generally speaking Messi had two truly dominant CL campaigns in the KO rounds(2011 and 2015), while Cris only has the one(2017). Messi has had higher peaks(yeah, i'd take Messi 2011 or 2015 over Cris 2017) while Cris has had fewer "poor" campaigns...

Truth be told, their teams overall quality and performances have had more to do with both of their individual performances than the other way around. As is expected at this level, since neither is Maradona and even Maradona could only do it once and at NT...
 
giorno said:
This got me curious. Cris has scored 53 goals to Messi's 37 in the KO rounds. Messi clearly outperformed him in CL in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2015. Cris clearly outperformed Messi in 2007, 2014, 2016 and 2017. 2008, 2012, 2013 are a bit more complex and close to call

Generally speaking Messi had two truly dominant CL campaigns in the KO rounds(2011 and 2015), while Cris only has the one(2017)

Truth be told, their teams overall quality and performances have had more to do with both of their individual performances than the other way around. As is expected at this level, since neither is Maradona and even Maradona could only do it once and at NT...
Click to expand...
Agreed with that last bit. When the “UCL” is used as the acid test/pinnacle of world football and achievement these days, I find it strange. Especially the last half decade to decade - especially since the poor showing of the EPL teams in Europe.

The European Football landscape has been so skewed that there’s only realistically been a couple teams (usually the Spanish 2) plus Bayern instilled as favorites. A couple of dark horses like Juve & Atletico. But all in all, the 2 Spanish giants used to read like a who’s who of the World XI. That’s just my opinion anyway.
 
Jim Beam said:
So, are we any closer to agreement?
Click to expand...

Anyone who has been watching football for more than a week know that Messi is inarguably the better player, but this question will always make for entertaining threads haha
 
I would consider myself to be a Ronaldo "fanboy". I started supporting united in the early 2000s and Ronaldo was the greatest player ive ever seen playing for us. I went into a borderline depression when he left us for Madrid, and i consider him to be one of the best player of all times)( not really going out on a limb here)

But Messi is the greatest. Honestly it s not even funny how good he is. He is one of the best in all areas of football. His passing is undoubtedly the best in the world right now, finishing only Ronaldo rivals him, best dribbler in the world going for 10 years now, dead ball specialist, it just seems like he has it all. I still like Ronaldo better, but at no point in time ( past 2008) was Ronaldo a better player than Messi. He had better seasons overall at times, but Messi was still quite comfotable the superior player, hence being seen by many as the greatest player to ever grace a foot.
All in all, we re very lucky to have seen both growing up, improving, and reaching godlike levels.
 
Peyroteo said:
Xavi, Iniesta and Modric are better than Lampard because they've outperformed him consistently in the league/cup, in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally. Ronaldo's at the very least at the same level as Messi because despite Messi consistently performing better in the league and cup he's performed better than Messi both in the latter stages of the Champions League and internationally throughout the whole of their careers. In my opinion at least since there's no point arguing about it again.

If Messi has an historically great World Cup in Russia while Ronaldo flops then I'd have no problem putting Messi ahead.
Click to expand...

But your basis for Ronaldo "outperforming" Messi is that he's scored more goals than him which completely ignores every other facet of the game.

Ultimately it always comes back to goals with Ronaldo.
 
Pink Moon said:
But your basis for Ronaldo "outperforming" Messi is that he's scored more goals than him which completely ignores every other facet of the game.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. He's scored more and assisted more which given their responsabilty on the pitch is creating and scoring goals is something that's pretty substancial. All the rest I have no stats or evidence to provide. I don't believe Messi has created more with his passing or dribbling either than Ronaldo overall, I don't know if he's won more fouls or corners, I don't know which one overall has pressed more, which one has tackled more, etc.. I know that I've watched 99% of those matches and think Ronaldo's been the better player of the two. You'll disagree but you won't provide any evidence for it either because it's impossible to objectively prove something that's subjective.

Neymar has finished 2017 with more chances created than Messi, more assists, more dribbles completed with a better dribbling percentage, a similar passing success rate, etc. Why is Messi the better player?
 
giorno said:
This got me curious. Cris has scored 53 goals to Messi's 37 in the KO rounds. Messi clearly outperformed him in CL in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2015. Cris clearly outperformed Messi in 2007, 2014, 2016 and 2017. 2008, 2012, 2013 are a bit more complex and close to call

Generally speaking Messi had two truly dominant CL campaigns in the KO rounds(2011 and 2015), while Cris only has the one(2017). Messi has had higher peaks(yeah, i'd take Messi 2011 or 2015 over Cris 2017) while Cris has had fewer "poor" campaigns...

Truth be told, their teams overall quality and performances have had more to do with both of their individual performances than the other way around. As is expected at this level, since neither is Maradona and even Maradona could only do it once and at NT...
Click to expand...

53 to 37 in the knockouts but 37 to 16 from the quarters forward and 17 to 6 from the semis forward which is a big difference.

2008 Ronaldo was better and 2017 was as good as Messi in 2011 or 2015 imo. Clear advantage to Ronaldo right now for me but Messi is 2 years younger. If he has an historically great World Cup or replicates 2011 or 2015 CL I'll gladly put him above Ronaldo.
 
Peyroteo said:
No, it's not. He's scored more and assisted more which given their responsabilty on the pitch is creating and scoring goals is something that's pretty substancial. All the rest I have no stats or evidence to provide. I don't believe Messi has created more with his passing or dribbling either than Ronaldo overall, I don't know if he's won more fouls or corners, I don't know which one overall has pressed more, which one has tackled more, etc.. I know that I've watched 99% of those matches and think Ronaldo's been the better player of the two. You'll disagree but you won't provide any evidence for it either because it's impossible to objectively prove something that's subjective.

Neymar has finished 2017 with more chances created than Messi, more assists, more dribbles completed with a better dribbling percentage, a similar passing success rate, etc. Why is Messi the better player?
Click to expand...

Of course Messi created more with dribbling and passing, that is not even a contest surely? You could see yesterday for yourself, Ronaldo probably doesn't create amount of chances Messi did with forward passing in half a season let alone in one game. Everything else you've stated has merit, but comparing their passing in 2017 is just a waste of breath.
 
Peyroteo said:
53 to 37 in the knockouts but 37 to 16 from the quarters forward and 17 to 6 from the semis forward which is a big difference.
Click to expand...
10 of 17 and 19 of 37 in the last 4 seasons, where Messi played 7 games less at that stage. It's 19-2 in goals scored. Yet Messi's 2015 was at least on par with what Cris did last spring.

As i said, the guy playing on the better team has generally been better in those games

2008 Ronaldo was better and 2017 was as good as Messi in 2011 or 2015 imo. Clear advantage to Ronaldo right now for me but Messi is 2 years younger. If he has an historically great World Cup or replicates 2011 or 2015 CL I'll gladly put him above Ronaldo.
Click to expand...
He really wasn't, and i'll give you 2015 but 2011, just no. Go back to watch Messi's games against arsenal, shakhtar, madrid and united. He was by far the best player on the pitch in all 7 games. Actually voted MOTM in 6 iirc. That barca elevated him the way 1970 Brazil elevated Pelé. He's never going to replicate it, Cris never reached that level, and we likely won't be seeing something truly comparable in our lives
 
Status
Not open for further replies.