Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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This shit flip flops all the time. It was just only a couple of months ago in the clasico that Messi was the undisputed greatest of all time on this forum.


History books tend to mention trophies and achievements, not talent. That's why 30 years from now Ronaldo will be remembered as the GOAT.

If it was all about talent, A lot of people probably would've considered Best as GOAT by now.

But Messi's numbers and records rival Ronaldo's. And we live in a social media age where every fecking goal and assist is uploaded onto the internet. So 30 years down the line people will have that huge resource to form their opinion on.
 
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, but my personal opinion after watching this team for two decades is that once Messi is gone or stops being the goat, you will see us enter the United/Moyes zone.

It will be probably worse than 2013, after we lost Guardiola and he dragged an awful team that deserved to be out in both round of 16 and quarterfinals, but Messi scored two goals vs Milan to lead the comeback and came in as a sub in the 2nd leg vs PSG without being 100%, giving Pedro the assist that classified us to be destroyed by Bayern that year.

He's dragging our corpse (and Argentina too) for some years in his career, Ronaldo does it but in a different way, he doesn't need to be involved in the play as much, he just needs to score, and he does it like Messi. But since Guardiola departure, Xavi's worst years and now Iniesta's decline he's the only elite creative player (bar Rakitic, who is wasted largely on defensive duties) between our defenders and Neymar/Suarez, first treble Messi had a 24% goal participation of the team, in 2013/14 he was already above 40%.

By the time Messi (29) retires, only Umtiti (23) and Neymar (25) could be stars to build around already in the club. You can win a treble with Messi and 3/4 more elite caliber players as Lucho did in the first year, but I doubt you can do the same with Neymar, he needs to take a huge step forward to fill that role for a whole season.

Once Ronaldo retires, well he's already 32, and Asensio, Varane, James, Casemiro and Isco are still under 25, Kroos and Bale are 27 y/o so they still cover with Ronaldo the age gap between Messi/Neymar. Madrid are set for a better future and, worst case scenario, they will have to splash the money into a great goalscorer, which is what Ronaldo has been doing the last years, with Messi you need to cover the void Ronaldo would leave, and then some more work in the engine room without having players like Marcelo, Isco, James, Modric or Kroos to feed him.

We'll see, but for me Messi is to Barcelona what Ferguson was to United, that's why he's the first "best player in the world" we've enjoyed for more than five years. Cruyff, Maradona, Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo or Ronaldinho, we burned all of them in five years or less and almost all of them started a crisis once they left the club, imagine what will happen once Messi goes.


For the leader part, there's a lot of kinds. Tim Duncan was a "shy" and silent guy, and he was Spurs' leader for almost 20 years. Garnett was all heart, antics and a lot of talking about leadership, but he "sold" his teammated for a chance in Celtics, and then also left the Celtics for Brooklyn. You see them in videos and Garnett strikes you as the best leader, yet Duncan did a better job at leading his team for a better part of his whole career
Interesting post, he really is a massive player for the club.
 
I think that the debate is officially open now. And it is very close. On achievements, Ronaldo is probably slightly ahead:

Ballon D'Ors: Ronaldo 5 - Messi 5
UCL: Ronaldo 4 - Messi 4 (although he didn't play that much in the first one)
League titles: Ronaldo 5 - Messi 8
International trophies: Ronaldo 1 - Messi 0
Golden Shoe: Ronaldo 4 - Messi 4
UCL top scorer: Ronaldo 6 - Messi 5

It is close, and I think that now it can go either way, while 3-4 years ago, I thought that Messi will be remembered as clearly the better player.

This is the closest rivalry we could have for a long long time. Unparalleled in the history of football.
 
When it counts I think Cristiano shades it. Both are obviously insanely great. Hard to argue with Ronaldo record in general games also has more iconic moments like basically managing Portugal to glory last year.
 
I think that the debate is officially open now. And it is very close. On achievements, Ronaldo is probably slightly ahead:

Ballon D'Ors: Ronaldo 5 - Messi 5
UCL: Ronaldo 4 - Messi 4 (although he didn't play that much in the first one)
League titles: Ronaldo 5 - Messi 8
International trophies: Ronaldo 1 - Messi 0
Golden Shoe: Ronaldo 4 - Messi 4
UCL top scorer: Ronaldo 6 - Messi 5

It is close, and I think that now it can go either way, while 3-4 years ago, I thought that Messi will be remembered as clearly the better player.

Looks close (the bolded part) but it ain't close in reality.

When it comes to quarters, semis and finals in the CL, Ronaldo is far better than Messi.

For the record, Ronaldo - 37 goals vs Messi - 16 goals.

When people say that Messi is the better player, do they mean that he is more likely to perform better in the final stages of the CL - i.e. when it really matters? Because facts suggest that Ronaldo is the far better player in that regard.

Messi is far better on the ball but there is much more to football than being better on the ball: movement, determination, work rate, mental strength.

All in all, there isn't much between both players. Messi is more talented on the ball and better to watch but Ronaldo is way more likely to win you a game in the fnal stages of the best club tournament ever.

10 goals in 5 games vs Bayern,, Atleti and Juve is one of the greatest feats in the history of football. It's comparable to what Maradona did for Argentina vs England and Belgium in '86. Of course, Ronaldo could not score that goal vs England but Maradona could not score 10 goals vs Bayern, Juve and Atleti who have arguably better defences than England and Belgium back then. Besides, one of Maradona's goals was a pure cheat.

The greatest ever attacking trio in MSN managed to score 12 goals vs PSG (meh), Bayern and Juve back in 2015. Ronaldo alone scored 10 goals against Bayern, Atleti and Juve. That's absolutely astonishing. Football is a game of goals, not only a game of beautiful passes and tricks (don't get me wrong, I like them too).
 
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Things have switched around. Messi used to have an excellent midfield behind him with Ronaldo having a good midfield. Now Ronaldo has an excellent one and Messi has a good one . I think Ronaldo can win another ucl in the next two seasons.
 
Things have switched around. Messi used to have an excellent midfield behind him with Ronaldo having a good midfield. Now Ronaldo has an excellent one and Messi has a good one . I think Ronaldo can win another ucl in the next two seasons.
As much as I'd love to see United stop them, it's difficult to imagine who can stop them retaining it again next season.
 
As much as I'd love to see United stop them, it's difficult to imagine who can stop them retaining it again next season.

Yeah if a team knocks them out it would have to be from a red card or a tactical master class from the opposing manager.
 
To understand the magnitude of Ronaldo's achievement - 10 goals in 5 games (from the CL quarters to the final) - just think about the following: Messi is almost 30 and has scored just 16 goals in such games, and Rooney and Zlatan haven't scored 10 goals (in quarters, semis and finals) taken together. Out of this world.
 
All time CL topscorers

1 Cristiano Ronaldo 105
2 Lionel Messi 94
3 Raúl 71
4 Ruud van Nistelrooy 56
5 Karim Benzema 51

Cristiano Ronaldo has 52 in the knockout stage. :eek:
 
To understand the magnitude of Ronaldo's achievement - 10 goals in 5 games (from the CL quarters to the final) - just think about the following: Messi is almost 30 and has scored just 16 goals in such games, and Rooney and Zlatan haven't scored 10 goals (in quarters, semis and finals) taken together. Out of this world.

And all of them are crucial goals which are scored against very best opponents with the best defence in the world. What a player.
 
We are truly blessed to witness this great rivalry between two absolute legends. Just had a look at players with most goals in their career. Ronaldo has 600 and Messi is just behind him. There are 2-3 players above them with 700+ goals which both of them could overtake in 3-4 years. Then there is Pele with a cool 1279 goals :D. I don't think anyone can ever score as many as Pele playing in a top league.
 
Ronaldo really is a phenomenal footballer but he isn't better than Messi neither is he the goat. Ronaldo does inspire me but Messi just amazes me.
 
The thing is you can argue about "talent" all you want. It's trophies and achievements that counts in cementing a players status as GOAT.

I somewhat agree with this otherwise we would be talking about Denilson as a great player :lol: but I think it's a combination of both talent and achievements that count towards cementing one as a goat, and though most people will say Messi is more talented, and even if I was to concede that, I don't think the difference in talent is so vast to make Messi the goat considering Ronaldo now has stuff like "major national team trophy" and the fact that he has done it in what are considered the two best leagues. I also think Ronaldo being able to adjust and adapt his game and be the best in the world in both phases of his career, counts towards his greatness.

Ronaldo is the GOAT for me no doubt.
 
I somewhat agree with this otherwise we would be talking about Denilson as a great player :lol: but I think it's a combination of both talent and achievements that count towards cementing one as a goat, and though most people will say Messi is more talented, and even if I was to concede that, I don't think the difference in talent is so vast to make Messi the goat considering Ronaldo now has stuff like "major national team trophy" and the fact that he has done it in what are considered the two best leagues. I also think Ronaldo being able to adjust and adapt his game and be the best in the world in both phases of his career, counts towards his greatness.

Ronaldo is the GOAT for me no doubt.

That's more ore less the reason why Ronaldo > Messi for me but we have to remember Messi has a couple of years on him and things can change very fast. Not too long (2-3 years) ago everyone thought Ronaldo was done and dusted with Messi the clear winner.

To be honest, it is all about who you prefer as a player at this point. Two of the greatest players of all time playing together like this is incredible to be a part of.
 
I do consider Messi to be the best ever, but I've never understood all the people who put Ronaldo down not only in the next tier but in the third or even fourth tier. The thing that puts these two ahead of pretty much everyone else is their consistency over such a long period. Everyone else has tended to only be the top dog for 4-5 years at most. Ronaldo has now been at that level for 11 years, Messi for 9 or 10. It's absolutely ridiculous.

If people want to say a few players were better at their peaks - fine. I might even somewhat agree with some. But unless they've been as consistent, game-in game-out, for a decade or longer, these two have to be acknowledged as both being up there in the top 5 at least, if not the top 2.
 
I have always thought Messi is slightly better, but after what had happened last few months, I am pretty sure Ronaldo is now slightly ahead of Messi. Yes Messi has perhaps more talent and arguably the better footballer, but I never seen Messi or any other player (bar Maradona in 86 WC) who managed to play the way Ronaldo did during the crucial stage of the league and CL. Ronaldo this year in CL is phenomenal, I rated it as the best ever individual performances I've ever seen from a player (bar Maradona in 86 WC)
 
It would be interesting to see what non-biased fans view is on this subject. Manchester United and Real Madrid fans will be biased towards Ronaldo, while Barcelona fans will be biased towards Messi.

Has anyone done a survey of other forums or professional pundits to see what their view is? Basically is there a Rotten Tomatoes rating for these players eliminating obvious biases.
 
I have always thought Messi is slightly better, but after what had happened last few months, I am pretty sure Ronaldo is now slightly ahead of Messi. Yes Messi has perhaps more talent and arguably the better footballer, but I never seen Messi or any other player (bar Maradona in 86 WC) who managed to play the way Ronaldo did during the crucial stage of the league and CL. Ronaldo this year in CL is phenomenal, I rated it as the best ever individual performances I've ever seen from a player (bar Maradona in 86 WC)

Have you seen the 2010-11 CL season? Messi took the ball at halfway line dribbled everyone and scored on Bernabeu in the semifinal, like Maradona (since you bring him up). And in the final, he just ruined United with one of his best performances. Even Sir Alex Ferguson said after the game that 'We never controlled Lionel Messi, but many people have had to say that over the years'.

Talk about hyperbole. This is one of Ronaldo's best seasons in CL for sure, but it's still not very close to Messi's 2010-11 season.
 
It would be interesting to see what non-biased fans view is on this subject. Manchester United and Real Madrid fans will be biased towards Ronaldo, while Barcelona fans will be biased towards Messi.

Has anyone done a survey of other forums or professional pundits to see what their view is? Basically is there a Rotten Tomatoes rating for these players eliminating obvious biases.


When it comes to Manchester United being involved in any football discussion, there is NO SUCH THING as 'non-biased'.
 
Have you seen the 2010-11 CL season? Messi took the ball at halfway line dribbled everyone and scored on Bernabeu in the semifinal, like Maradona (since you bring him up). And in the final, he just ruined United with one of his best performances. Even Sir Alex Ferguson said after the game that 'We never controlled Lionel Messi, but many people have had to say that over the years'.

Talk about hyperbole. This is one of Ronaldo's best seasons in CL for sure, but it's still not very close to Messi's 2010-11 season.

Yes, but Ronaldo 10 crucial goals in final, semi and quarters against the best team with best defence (Juventus, Althetico, and Bayern) is much more impressive for me.
 
Yes, but Ronaldo 10 crucial goals in final, semi and quarters against the best team with best defence (Juventus, Althetico, and Bayern) is much more impressive for me.

3 of those are offside to begin with (with Bayern and 1 with Atletico). :lol:

So, if you only care about the goals, you should know that in reality only 7 were fair.
 
Have you seen the 2010-11 CL season? Messi took the ball at halfway line dribbled everyone and scored on Bernabeu in the semifinal, like Maradona (since you bring him up). And in the final, he just ruined United with one of his best performances. Even Sir Alex Ferguson said after the game that 'We never controlled Lionel Messi, but many people have had to say that over the years'.

Talk about hyperbole. This is one of Ronaldo's best seasons in CL for sure, but it's still not very close to Messi's 2010-11 season.

Talk about exaggeration.

In the quarters Barcelona beat Shaktar 5:1 and 1:0, Messi scored the goal in the second game after the tie was decided already in the first leg. Then Barca beat a non-great Madrid side at Bernabeu with 2 Messi goals. And then Barca won the final against a non-great United side with 1 goal by Messi.

That's not close to scoring 5 against a top Bayern side, 3 against one of the best defensive units in the world and 2 in the final against the best defence (Juve had conceded just 3 goals prior to the final). Barca fans may delude themselves that Messi had a better CL campaign back in 2011 but I very much doubt that neutrals would think the same. 10 goals in 5 games against top teams like Bayern, Atleti and Juve is the stuff of dreams. Only Maradona '86 is comparable to that feat.
 
Talk about exaggeration.

In the quarters Barcelona beat Shaktar 5:1 and 1:0, Messi scored the goal in the second game after the tie was decided already in the first leg. Then Barca beat a non-great Madrid side at Bernabeu with 2 Messi goals. And then Barca won the final against a non-great United side with 1 goal by Messi.

That's not close to scoring 5 against a top Bayern side, 3 against one of the best defensive units in the world and 2 in the final against the best defence (Juve had conceded just 3 goals prior to the final). Barca fans may delude themselves that Messi had a better CL campaign back in 2011 but I very much doubt that neutrals would think the same. 10 goals in 5 games against top teams like Bayern, Atleti and Juve is the stuff of dreams. Only Maradona '86 is comparable to that feat.

Did Maradona in 86 scored 10 goals in 5 games or something like that? No. You don't need to score goals to be decisive. Messi was decisive that season through key, unbelievable solo goals as well as through overall genius plays.

That goal where Messi dribbled through almost the entire Madrid defense back in 2011 is more remarkable as a proof of footballing genius than most of the goals Ronaldo scored in this season. Quality is better than quantity at times. Such is the case with Maradona in 1986 and Messi in 2011.

Messi scored 91 goals in 2012 and people say his best season was in 2011. That shows Messi is much more than just goals. He can be the best player on the pitch by miles without scoring a single goal.
 
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Even if Ronaldo scored hattricks in all his matches for the rest of his career, Messi is simplya better player in my book. You can throw around stats all day, if I were picking a team on the local playground Id pick Messi over Ronaldo evert time. He's simply better at football for me.

Ronaldo is also hidiously good though.
 
Did Maradona in 86 scored 10 goals in 5 games or something like that? No. You don't need to score goals to be decisive. Messi was decisive that season through key, unbelievable solo goals as well as through overall genius plays.

Maradona scored 4 goals in the quarters and the semis and assisted the winner in the final. That is, he contributed 5 goals in 3 games from the quarters to the final. Ronaldo decided all ties with his 10 goals from the quarters to the final and achieved something unseen in terms of goals per games at that stage of the best club tournament. Messi was great back in 2011 but not that great. Barca would have beaten Shaktar without Messi and Madrid and United didn't have great teams at that point.

If Ronaldo wins Ballon d'Or, then both will have 5 Ballon d'Ors and that would be about right. There isn't much between both players. It's about preference. IMO, only biased fans would insist that one of them is clearly superior to the other.
 
Well why should it? International football isn't the only measure, nor should it be. Indeed, Portugal's awful but effective approach was in no way a testament to the brilliance of Ronaldo. Their progress was as much about attritional anti-football as it was about any individual player. Ronaldo barely even played in the final.

Both Ronaldo's and Messi's careers have been so phenomenal that they have transcended glory at any particular tournament - especially the Euros which was a truly terrible month of nothingness.

To reduce your judgement on who is the better by citing Euro 16 is plain wrong. It's a far richer debate than that.

My opinion, don't create a hierarchy between the two. Neither deserve to be second.
 
3 of those are offside to begin with (with Bayern and 1 with Atletico). :lol:

So, if you only care about the goals, you should know that in reality only 7 were fair.

The one against Atletico was onside... and one of the goals vs Bayern was offside by milimeters. Should we dismiss Messi's goal at the Bernabeu too because he was only able to do it after Pepe was sent off?

And the argument that quality of goals is more important than quantity is absolutely ridiculous. Messi's goal at the Bernabeu only counts as one, the same as a Ronaldo tap in.
 
The hyperbole and playing down achievements from both camps is pathetic. Both are GOATs it's upto personal preference who you like better.
 
Maradona scored 4 goals in the quarters and the semis and assisted the winner in the final. That is, he contributed 5 goals in 3 games from the quarters to the final. Ronaldo decided all ties with his 10 goals from the quarters to the final and achieved something unseen in terms of goals per games at that stage of the best club tournament. Messi was great back in 2011 but not that great. Barca would have beaten Shaktar without Messi and Madrid and United didn't have great teams at that point.

If Ronaldo wins Ballon d'Or, then both will have 5 Ballon d'Ors and that would be about right. There isn't much between both players. It's about preference. IMO, only biased fans would insist that one of them is clearly superior to the other.

Let's respectfully disagree then. You clearly value goals above everything else. Ronaldo this year scored more important goals than Messi in 2011, so if that is your no1 criteria, then I have nothing else to say.

I have a different view.

For me, Messi emasculating Nani on Wembley for example, with an amazing piece of dribbling magic (in the play that ended with Villa's goal), values more than an offside goal, or a simple finish (not saying all of Ronaldo's goals were like that btw).

So, if I value technical virtuosity, creativity, and genius plays higher, of course, I rate Messi's 10-11 season as the highest I've seen in CL, based on those arguments.
 
The one against Atletico was onside... and one of the goals vs Bayern was offside by milimeters. Should we dismiss Messi's goal at the Bernabeu too because he was only able to do it after Pepe was sent off?

And the argument that quality of goals is more important than quantity is absolutely ridiculous. Messi's goal at the Bernabeu only counts as one, the same as a Ronaldo tap in.

It was offside for the same reason the Sanchez goal vs Chelsea was offside. Interfering with play from an offside position is sanctionable according to the laws of the game.

Can never agree with the bolded part. I'm a romanticist. I value the greatest goals higher than other goals. It's also undeniably harder to dribble 4-5 players and score, than to do it in a simpler way.
 
We are truly blessed to witness this great rivalry between two absolute legends. Just had a look at players with most goals in their career. Ronaldo has 600 and Messi is just behind him. There are 2-3 players above them with 700+ goals which both of them could overtake in 3-4 years. Then there is Pele with a cool 1279 goals :D. I don't think anyone can ever score as many as Pele playing in a top league.
According to the RSSSF who are pretty reliable on these things, Pele's real total is 767:

1. Bican, Josef (Austria, Bohemia/Moravia) 805+
2. Romário (Brazil) 772
3. Pelé (Brazil) 767
4. Puskás, Ferenc (Hungary) 746+
5. Müller, Gerd (Germany) 735

Those five are well clear at the moment, but potentially catchable assuming another few seasons of injury-free football.
 
3 of those are offside to begin with (with Bayern and 1 with Atletico). :lol:

So, if you only care about the goals, you should know that in reality only 7 were fair.

Is not only about the goals though, he simply win all the matches on his own.

You are trying hard to downplay Ronaldo while exaggerating Messi there, Messi did score a fine goal in semi running past 3 players, and also scored in the final, but the magnitude of which is nothing like what Ronaldo did in quarter, semi, and final. Almost all winning goals from his team are scored by him, he basically won all the matches by himself.
 
Well why should it? International football isn't the only measure, nor should it be. Indeed, Portugal's awful but effective approach was in no way a testament to the brilliance of Ronaldo. Their progress was as much about attritional anti-football as it was about any individual player. Ronaldo barely even played in the final.

Both Ronaldo's and Messi's careers have been so phenomenal that they have transcended glory at any particular tournament - especially the Euros which was a truly terrible month of nothingness.

To reduce your judgement on who is the better by citing Euro 16 is plain wrong. It's a far richer debate than that.

My opinion, don't create a hierarchy between the two. Neither deserve to be second.

He won the silver boot with 3 goals and 3 assists though. Scored key goals for Portugal vs wales and Hungary.

He overall was very influential for Portugal in that tournament
 
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