You have to be pretty biased to think Ronaldo is better than Messi. Ronaldo had a great champions league. He scored a lot of goals. He has a lot of hype now, but it still doesn't make him a better player than Messi.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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A typical joke fanboy excuse. No one is talking about merely picking up a medal. People like Pele won the thing while actual making a lasting mark on its history. Impact on the international stage has always been the way to seperate footballing greats from each other, since they all became greats by decimating the competition at club level. So to dare bring up average players I'm sorry to say is laughably stupid.
Another typically lame fanboy excuse. Club football is an absolute comfort zone for every one of the current superstars. They play in teams built to cater strictly to them and their strengths regardless of cost. International football in comparison is largely a level playing field. They must bring their talents to bear to bring a set group of players to glory. No short cuts of being surrounded by only the creme de la creme. That is why CR7 and LM10 at international level never appear miles and miles above the level of their peers.
Club football may have all the hype, glamour and perceived gravitas. But it will never be the gold standard for measuring greats against each other on its own.
No one has to downgrade them. Messi will always be a great. But If Messi continues to fail to make any impact on international football, he will simply not be greater than CR7. Its for that same reason the likes of Cruyff and Di Stefano even, who in particular literally had the greatest club career ever are still ranked below Pele and Maradona.
Currently LM10 and CR7 have achieved enough to be the undisputed kings of the club game bar Di Stefano. The next step for them is to do the same at international level. Both need to seriously impact a world cup to get their desire to be placed alongside Pele and Maradona as the greatest to ever play the sport. Both currently have excellent chances. CR7 with the Euro champs and LM10 with a Sampaoli coached Argentina. It wouldn't harm Messi either to finally break his COPA America hoodoo.
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Mods please change thread title to LM10 v CR7
I supposed Ronaldo should be thanking Portugueuse one a kind hero, Eder
Better footballer - Messi, better athlete - Ronaldo
I have always maintained that Messi is the better player. But Ronaldo has accomplished so much the last 2 years and went beast mode, it's pretty much even now.
His biggest detractors said he's only good for penalties and scoring against minnows. Yet here we are, making the best goalies in the history of the game, look like absolute mugs.
Cristiano Ronaldo is on the path to becoming the Greatest of All Time. Deal with it. Appreciate greatness when you see it.
His biggest detractors said he's only good for penalties and scoring against minnows. Yet here we are, making the best goalies in the history of the game, look like absolute mugs.
Cristiano Ronaldo is on the path to becoming the Greatest of All Time. Deal with it. Appreciate greatness when you see it.
I was thinking about it yesterday, and unfortunately for both, neither will ever be able to purport themselves to be the GOAT. Simply because each of them are playing in the same era, and each have accomplished so much that the mere existence of the other casts doubt upon any claims.
What I mean is, how can someone claim that Messi is the best player of this generation, since Ronaldo has accomplished just as much, maybe more. Same argument goes the other way around. Stylistic arguments, i.e. "he is a better dribbler/passer/scorer, etc." can always be countered. So it's effectively a draw.
Which leaves Pele and Maradona as the winners of the argument, as each one had clear dominance in their respective eras.
What I mean is, how can someone claim that Messi is the best player of this generation, since Ronaldo has accomplished just as much, maybe more. Same argument goes the other way around. Stylistic arguments, i.e. "he is a better dribbler/passer/scorer, etc." can always be countered. So it's effectively a draw.
Which leaves Pele and Maradona as the winners of the argument, as each one had clear dominance in their respective eras.
Will longetivity play into people's mind as they eventually decide in retrospect?
Yes. But he contributed greatly to them being in the final in the first place. Which is the main thing apart from winning it.
Don't understand this logic. So bobby charlton can't be a World Cup winner because he didn't score in the final? Ronaldo got injured during the game and couldn't play. He was instrumental to them getting into the round of 16 and winning the semi final
It's absurd, everyone relies on teammates. It's a team game.
Wow, learn to spot a joke. The Chief and I are cool like that.
Even if I was 100% serious, how the hell do you go from what I said to interpreting extremely like that
? Talking about Bobby Charlton and all Wow, learn to spot a joke. The Chief and I are cool like that.
Even if I was 100% serious, how the hell do you go from what I said to interpreting extremely like that
I have seen many say this so didn't know if it was serious or not
Though yeah I was a bit surprised because unlike many (even including me) you seem to know your football. Cheers
Eder is a legend for them. With one strike he destroyed months of preparation and dreams for usI have seen many say this so didn't know if it was serious or not
Though yeah I was a bit surprised because unlike many (even including me) you seem to know your football. Cheers
Ronaldo is a bit older than Messi but is a fitness maniac, so I wouldn't be surprised if he played at top top level a bit longer than Messi. Can see Ronaldo being among the best at 35. Not sure about Messi. He's been a passenger in some crucial CL ties over the last few seasons (vs Atleti, PSG away, Juve) but the rivalry with Ronaldo may help him to maintain his form a bit longer.
Just pointing out some stuff:
- In Euro 2016 Ronaldo was silver boot with 3 goals and 3 assists. Only Griezmann was more effective of all people in the tournament. Hardly a terrible tournament.
- Portugal scored 9 goals (1 vs Iceland, 0 vs Austria, 3 vs Hungary, 1 vs Croatia, 1 vs Poland, 2 vs Wales, 1 vs France). Ronaldo thus participated in 6 out of 9 goals, and in the final he only played some minutes. So Ronaldo had influence in 67% of Portugal's goals. Hardly a passenger.
- In the CL Messi has 94 goals and 25 assists in 115 games.
Ronaldo has 105 goals and 37 assists in 140 games (I'm excluding play offs).
So Messi has an average of 0.82 goals/game and 0.22 assists/game.
Ronaldo has an average of 0.75 goals/game and 0.26 assists/game.
Both scored 11 penalties in the CL (and missed 3), so Messi's percentage of penalties in goals is 12% while Ronaldo's is 10%.
So Messi in average scores more but also more from penalties, while Ronaldo assists more.
Quite demolishes the stereotype of these players.
- In Euro 2016 Ronaldo was silver boot with 3 goals and 3 assists. Only Griezmann was more effective of all people in the tournament. Hardly a terrible tournament.
- Portugal scored 9 goals (1 vs Iceland, 0 vs Austria, 3 vs Hungary, 1 vs Croatia, 1 vs Poland, 2 vs Wales, 1 vs France). Ronaldo thus participated in 6 out of 9 goals, and in the final he only played some minutes. So Ronaldo had influence in 67% of Portugal's goals. Hardly a passenger.
- In the CL Messi has 94 goals and 25 assists in 115 games.
Ronaldo has 105 goals and 37 assists in 140 games (I'm excluding play offs).
So Messi has an average of 0.82 goals/game and 0.22 assists/game.
Ronaldo has an average of 0.75 goals/game and 0.26 assists/game.
Both scored 11 penalties in the CL (and missed 3), so Messi's percentage of penalties in goals is 12% while Ronaldo's is 10%.
So Messi in average scores more but also more from penalties, while Ronaldo assists more.
Quite demolishes the stereotype of these players.
Exactly and it's difficult to understand, how anyone who watch them can say otherwise. Fair play to Ronaldo, he deserves another Ballon D'Or this season, but because his team has been better and more balanced than Barca in recent time, not because he has been better than Messi. You just need to watch at La Liga, where you have a game ever week, Messi was without a doubt the superior player there, but Real won the title.
Amazing fullbacks, outstanding midfield and a pretty good attack alongside Ronaldo plus the best depth in Europe. It's difficult to upgrade Real. You can find better goalkeepers than Navas or strikers than Benzema, but both are very good, maybe a better CB alongside Ramos. But overall that team is a machine. Barca on the other side has 3 amazing attackers, that's about it. The midfield isn't up to the highest level anymore except for Busquets and you could say the same about the defence except for Pique. Barca has the better front 3, that's it, in every other area including manager and squad depth Real is superior (maybe tie in CB area).
In the end it's a team sport.
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Interesting point. For all that us fans have seen two potential GOATs going head to head, in the same league, at the same time. Will their legacies gain or lose from that. Imagine one or the other came 10 years earlier or later, we could be talking about either of them winning 7,8,9,10? World player of the year awards in a row.
Good post. I also agree with your points in which areas Ronaldo is better. But the thing for me is those strengths just make Ronaldo a even better 9/striker/goalscorer and I would say yeah Ronaldo is the best 9 ever, but does that really matter when Messi is a pretty awesome goalscorer too and can keep up in terms of goals, while doing so much more? The magic thing about Messi isn't his dribbling. It's the fact that he is a great 8, 10 and 9 alltogether. I never saw a player with a skillset like him. He scored insane amount of goals as a striker, but he can also play as 10, get some assists, dribble past players and score well from that position too and he can even orchestrate the game from a deep position where he opens up attacks with his passes. Assists don't tell you the whole story, I never understood why people only use "assists" to make Ronaldo more creative. If people want to use stats then they should add "Chances created" and "Key passes" and other stuff like that or rather just watch those players. The obsession with goals/assists are the reason why some guys could never appreciate players like Iniesta, David Silva or Modric and can't see why that Bernardo Silva fella might be special. If Messi gets the ball 30-40 metres away from the goal, goes past 2 players and then plays a defence-opening pass to neymar, who does the easy pass to suarez, who scores the goal, Messi doesn't get the goal nor the assist. But he was the one who created the situation and Ronaldo by all respect can't do that, his assists are those kind of simple passes when he receives the ball in the final third. Messi does that too plus the playmaking plus scoring goals and that's why he is so special and the GOAT imo. He is a great 8, 10 and 9 in one. Ronaldo is a great striker/inside forward. He would be a underwhelming 10 and an awful 8. So I never got the argument that Ronaldo is more flexible just because he did it in another league, when Messi has more to it's game and will most likely find an ideal position in every team. They even created a position "false 9" for him, because just a striker wouldn't describe all the things Messi does. Ronaldo has his position and in that area he is the best, maybe better than Messi and that puts him into Top3/5 of all time, but Messi is a freak, which we might never see again.
Hence footballing-wise I always maintained Messi being better player. But in terms of football greatness, which is more down to individual impact/achievements, I think Ronaldo is now slightly ahead.
Very good post. Agree with it on every account.
He's not there yet. Messi still has 5 BD to Ronaldo's 4. Has won more titles on club level than Ronaldo and has performed better at the World Cup as well.
I think honours have a big part to play in how we judge a player when they retire. Would Pele still generally be considered the best player on talent alone without his 3 World Cup wins? It's hypothetical and impossible to answer but the more these legends of the game carry their team to success, the higher they will be regarded. So how do they stack up?
League titles Messi 8 Ronaldo 5, Domestic cups Messi 11 Ronaldo 7, European trophies Messi 7 Ronaldo 5, FIA CWC Messi 3 Ronaldo 3, International tournament wins Messi 0 Ronaldo 1, Ballon d'Or Messi 5 Ronaldo 4.
There are other categories you could bring in to the argument but you can see realistically based on honours Messi edges it but it depends how you weight it, that win for Portugal last year was massive and a much bigger achievement than if Messi had won anything with Argentina, which he hasn't managed to do.
I think you have to look at the overall picture like this because talent wise at the top of their game there is so little to choose between them.
League titles Messi 8 Ronaldo 5, Domestic cups Messi 11 Ronaldo 7, European trophies Messi 7 Ronaldo 5, FIA CWC Messi 3 Ronaldo 3, International tournament wins Messi 0 Ronaldo 1, Ballon d'Or Messi 5 Ronaldo 4.
There are other categories you could bring in to the argument but you can see realistically based on honours Messi edges it but it depends how you weight it, that win for Portugal last year was massive and a much bigger achievement than if Messi had won anything with Argentina, which he hasn't managed to do.
I think you have to look at the overall picture like this because talent wise at the top of their game there is so little to choose between them.
We all know BD will be 5 to 5 by the end of year, and Ronaldo always have this major international tournament success over Messi. For individual records and stats he is also slightly ahead (career goals they are similar, but CL goals/assists Ronaldo is ahead)
But it's true Messi has more club titles, although some of the early ones he only played bit/less part of it (CL and few league titles), whereas all the Ronaldo club titles success he always played major part and has most impact on it.
Hmm. The Euro win is something he has over Messi true. So strictly statistic wise, he has one 1 international title, while Messi has many lost finals. However, if you look at the context of it, things aren't like that, since Ronaldo missed the final. So, it's not really only about the number. Ronaldo didn't play (except very little) in the game which would have decided the duel with Messi at NT level so far. So, it's impossible to draw any conclusion based on Ronaldo's Euro win.
It's not true that Ronaldo has more individual records than Messi.
I'd say that in terms of individual impact they are about equal, with Ronaldo having some records and Messi others.
Ronaldo can overtake Messi as far as who had a better career is concerned. He can't, imo, overtake Messi as far as who the better player is though.
About the 'greatest' part, it's purely subjective and depending on what you value more.
Maradona is probably seen as the greatest, even though many players have a better career and won more trophies than him. So, ability tends to be the no1 criteria that is used by most fans when determining who the greatest is. Not trophies or individual records.
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Ronaldo is the only player to win the league title, the national cup, the national Super Cup (Community Shield), the Champions League, the Club World Cup, the league’s Player of the Year, the Golden Boot and the Ballon d’Or at two separate clubs.
That's why he is GOAT and certainly why he is better than Lionel Messi.
That's why he is GOAT and certainly why he is better than Lionel Messi.
What does winning with two different clubs have to do with anything? It's fine to have your personal favourite and it's acceptable if some people think Ronaldo is better and vice versa but being a one club man is never a negative.
Better in what sense?
Messi is clearly better than Ronaldo, who is probably the second best player of the modern era. When Ronaldo scores a brace or hat trick as he has done in recent CL games, we are all amazed by his scoring record. When Messi does the same we're not amazed to the same extent.
Another difference, when Ronaldo scores (especially since he's stopped being good at free kicks) they're just goals, nothing special in the execution, yet many of Messi's goals we'd find it hard to imagine any other player being capable of scoring them.
Another difference, when Ronaldo scores (especially since he's stopped being good at free kicks) they're just goals, nothing special in the execution, yet many of Messi's goals we'd find it hard to imagine any other player being capable of scoring them.
This is genuinely one of the most incredible statistics I've seen:
Since the 2006-07 season, when they both had their big breakthrough, their goal statistics for their clubs look like this:
Messi: 498 goals in 549 games
Ronaldo: 497 goals in 549 games
Freaky.
If you add international games Ronaldo sneaks ahead, though.
Since the 2006-07 season, when they both had their big breakthrough, their goal statistics for their clubs look like this:
Messi: 498 goals in 549 games
Ronaldo: 497 goals in 549 games
Freaky.
If you add international games Ronaldo sneaks ahead, though.
You sound as if Messi scores as many goals as Ronaldo in the final stages of the CL (i.e. from the quarters to the final). Yet the result is 37:16 for Ronaldo. Huge difference that.
I think reason why Maradona is seen as the greatest, is given the context he's in, he had already out-achieved more than anyone could dream of, and he is the closest definition of someone who single-handedly winning the biggest tournament in football at that time (which is the biggest achievement one could dream of), plus several other league titles in the toughest competition of football history. But in terms of better career (consistency/no. of trophy/individual records), yes Messi and Ronaldo are above him.
For Ronaldo, yes he missed the final because of injury, but he did also make a big impact for Portugal throughout the tournament. So technically he didn't win the final game, but he did win the trophy. But I don't think that Euro win is what define him as GOAT, its just another trophy he wins. His career-defining moment is his CL run and success this year, which in fact does convince a lot of people he should be worthy candidate of GOAT.
I remember Gerry Armstrong saying that Ronaldo is a super player, but that Messi was still the best in the world and I would have to agree.
Gerry Armstrong creams his pants for anything Barca related
Of course doing it at two different clubs is a MAJOR plus to the Ronaldo v Messi debate.
Messi has never really proved to do it out of the comfort of Barcelona's greatness. Ronaldo has proved it at the top end in both Spain and in England, which, as everyone knows,is a lot harder to crack. An argument can always be made that Messi was at his best playing in one of the greatest club sides of all time. Ronaldo will always have that over him, unless Messi can prove otherwise.
It's a dealbreaker in the debate.
See post directly above this one.
Officially, did Messi win the CL of 06 for Barca ?
Not everyone knows that.
Is there really any doubt that Messi could 'do it' in the PL when ex-PD players like Silva, Mata and A. Sanchez were able to 'do it'? I mean, really?
This. An alien vs a WC player.
He wasn't the decisive factor, but was a part of the success. His role in the Chelsea win from Stanford Beach was essential. You could say that was probably the hardest tie Barca had in that season. He was injured in the semifinal and final.
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