I'm pretty sure they count goals in national team friendlies and in the youth national teams which is a bit irrelevant. It would be nice to get a list of the greatest goalscorers in official matches at senior level but I can't find anything.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I'm pretty sure they count goals in national team friendlies and in the youth national teams which is a bit irrelevant. It would be nice to get a list of the greatest goalscorers in official matches at senior level but I can't find anything.
It's a tie.
/the end
/the end
Ronaldo just edges it for me.
Yes, it's true that Ronaldo scored quite a lot of goals in quarters, semifinal, and final. It's also true that almost all the goals were a shared effort, and that Ronaldo did not actually create any of those goals on his own. Other players did, players that, conveniently enough, never receive the credit they deserve for providing Ronaldo with the best service in top football at the moment.
Just out of curiosity, how many fans commented in the chat for both Ronaldo's goals about the great contribution of Carvajal and Modric for delivering two inch perfect crosses? It's all about the goals Ronaldo scores, while the rest, no matter the contribution, become a sidenote.
Not really comparable with the goals Messi scored in the semifinal and final in 2010-11. The 2nd vs Madrid and the one vs United. Those were auteur goals. His work and no-one else's. They just gave him the ball in two neutral positions and he took care of the rest.
So, while Ronaldo's goals were more numerous, Messi's goals were more special and much harder to pull off. It's a discussion about quality vs quantity. But then again, if you don't believe in the concept that some goals are better than others, or that there are many other ways in which you can impact a game, ways which are just as important as finishing the chances your team creates, there's just no point in talking about it.
I used to be in the camp where I preferred Ronaldo but accepted Messi as the greater of the two. Thinking about it now, I'm not sure. Ronnie might just edge in my book.
Yeah and Ronaldo in 2009 scored 2 unbelievable goals vs Arsenal and Porto in the quarters and semi. One won the Puskas... Was that great service too? And Messi didn't get great service during his career?
Cristiano doesn't score quite a lot of goals in this stage of the Champions League. He scores an insane amount. More than double of anyone else. You can combine 30 or 40 of the best strikers of the past 30 years and all of them combined haven't scored the same.
Its not simply discussion about quality vs quantity regarding the goals scored though, its more about how big the impact/influence/contribution the player has done on winning the tournament. Ronaldo did contributed 10 winning goals during all the crucial stages in CL. Its unprecedented and rightly so. Messi did scored some fine goals in some important games too, but given the overall context its nothing like what Ronaldo did.
Ronaldo has a good number of assists too over the years almost as many as messi most years. Yet apparently all his assists are square passes and messis assists are inch perfect through balls from 40 yards out
Messi has goal scoring records too you know. Like he owns a 'tiny' record of 91 goals scored in a year. Both records of goals scored in a season, and goals scored in a calendar year are Messi's.
So, to call Ronaldo as better than Messi, I need him to see him beat Messi at dribbling, creating, and playmaking, ar at least challenge him the way Messi has challenged Ronaldo in his area of expertise, i.e. scoring goals. Which is just not happening. Ever.
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actually, you'd be surprised how many of United fans would choose Messi as a better player regardless. we had a poll about that last year after EURO and majority of people here still voted for Messi - on Manchester United forum, after Madrid winning CL and Portugal winning EURO.
Funnily enough, a lot of Messi's assists are square passes, and Cristiano's mishit/parried shots or crosses. Both have numerous assists just from drawing opposition bodies to them and making a good pass out into space. The amount of 'inch-perfect through balls from 40 yards out' Barcelona waste seems alarming every season though.
Ok, but the discussion was about both of their influence solely in the latter stages of the Champions League which is why I mentioned records which were related to the latter stages of the Champions League.
Yes but you're forgetting the amazing blinkered bias some people have..... guarantee you now, you're wasting your time trying to have a discussion. Stop now, save yourself a small part of your life.
The discussion was about the best personal season, Messi 10-11 vs Ronaldo 16-17. That is not the same thing as 'who scored more goals'. The type of goals and the overall influence matter, at least for me, especially considering that Messi is also a no10, while Ronaldo is not. Barca 10-11 was a lot more dominant that this Madrid side, and Messi was a big influence in establishing that dominance. This goes beyond scoring goals.
Messi is the more naturally talented, pretty clearly. Ronaldo has the better mentality.
However, if both their careers ended tomorrow, I think Ronaldo would go down as the greater player, just.
Who knows how it will end up by the time their careers wind down.
However, if both their careers ended tomorrow, I think Ronaldo would go down as the greater player, just.
Who knows how it will end up by the time their careers wind down.
I'm dying here
Not a great Real Madrid side: Casillas, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo, Xabi Alonso, and Ronaldo are players that will be put in the GOAT talk for their positions once they retire, surrounded by a cast of Di Maria, Ozil, Higuain or Benzema and coached by Jose Mourinho, who for you might be a non-great manager, but will probably end his career as top 5 material.
Then you try to sell us Juventus after underrating massively that Real Madrid side? Real had also only just conceded just 3 goals until Messi put them two in the Bernabeu.
2011? 6 goals and 2 assists in crucial stages? Like when he assisted Villa in the 2-1 defeat vs Arsenal and scored two in the secong leg, Shaktar happened, then he put two again on Real Madrid at Bernabeu and another one vs United in the Final?
You say it's not quantity vs quality, but IT IS, it was harder for Messi scoring the 0-2 in the Bernabeu beating 4 defenders than it was for Ronaldo putting 3 on bayern touching the ball 4 times in those 3 goals. It's fine if you believe that Ronaldo is better because he wins a game appearing two times to score two goals vs Messi constant involvement in the play and hours of footage scoring clutch goals after driving 3 or even 4 players. But at least don't try to sell us is not a debate between quality and quantity, it has always been that way between these two players
I think they are on the same level. I don't think we can objectively say who is the best/whatever - just see how after all these years people are still arguing over Pelé and Maradona.
In the future this era will not be called the Ronaldo or Messi era but the Ronaldo+Messi era. It will be an iconic historic era with both being argued like the Pelé/Maradona one.
I don't know how people manage to say one is MUCH better than the other. I respect their opinion but I don't agree.
First, while playing the same position sort of, they are very differente players.
Messi pros
- Has better dribbling
- Has better passing and vision for passing
Ronaldo pros
- Has better aerial game
- Has better off the ball movement and vision for offensive positioning/finishing
I think they're equal in finishing ability, although Ronaldo has a better jump and strong heading so he can also finish better in these situations. In any case Messi has a very good heading technique for such a small player.
I think many people underrate some of Ronaldo's strenghts: his off the ball movement, killer instinct positioning, powerful shots/jumps and the defensive bonus of being very strong in the air.
I understand why some people think Messi is the best: he is the cliche romantic player with super technical skills and Ronaldo's ambitious/arrogant/selfish/whatever personality makes people more easily hate him - and judging him subjectively as a player because of that.
Messi's strenghts make him contribute more in the playmaking from the midfield, showing passes, dribbles and goals.
Ronaldo's strenghts in the latter part of his career is different and somewhat invisible until the goal: he doesn't playmake - he makes it easier for others to playmake with his constant, high quality off the ball movements and incredible pace, strenght, jump and positioning.
Is it more important to make a perfect pass or to make it so that any average pass is able to turn into a good one by the reciever's ability?
They're both as important, but people many times are more interested in the technical part of the game and not in the tactical one (that's why effective "park the bus" kind of teams are so hated nowadays and "useless pass sideways" teams are applauded).
Ronaldo has the bonus of having being great in another league, but no one can blame Messi for wanting to continue in one of the best clubs in the world.
In national teams I think they're also as good as each other.
Argentina's teams of stars many times lack the team spirit and Portugal's less impressive squads also have been stuck with horrendus strikers over the years, as well as more competition european-wise.
Messi's general criticism
- Needs a WC midfield to actually play - no, he has shown to be good in Argentina even when he played with dysfunctional teams.
- Doesn't want to come out of his confort zone - can you blame him to want to stay in one of the best clubs in the world? also see above.
- He's weaker in mental strenght - I think so, but that doesn't mean he's weak mentaly, just that Ronaldo is ridiculous in that department
Ronaldo's general criticism
- He's just a statue that deflects balls into the net - no, he makes it easy to tap in by his positioning, off the ball movement and intelligent pass/cross reading ability. Also he assists. A LOT. And earlier in his career he was one of the most entertaining players around.
- Doesn't perform in big games - this "rumour" was even wrong when it started, but I still heard it last year which is ridiculous.
- He's a selfish drama queen - It is true sometimes, but I think he's better now and anyway who cares if he still scores and assists crazily?
TL;DR - I think they're equally good and that's how history will remember them
In the future this era will not be called the Ronaldo or Messi era but the Ronaldo+Messi era. It will be an iconic historic era with both being argued like the Pelé/Maradona one.
I don't know how people manage to say one is MUCH better than the other. I respect their opinion but I don't agree.
First, while playing the same position sort of, they are very differente players.
Messi pros
- Has better dribbling
- Has better passing and vision for passing
Ronaldo pros
- Has better aerial game
- Has better off the ball movement and vision for offensive positioning/finishing
I think they're equal in finishing ability, although Ronaldo has a better jump and strong heading so he can also finish better in these situations. In any case Messi has a very good heading technique for such a small player.
I think many people underrate some of Ronaldo's strenghts: his off the ball movement, killer instinct positioning, powerful shots/jumps and the defensive bonus of being very strong in the air.
I understand why some people think Messi is the best: he is the cliche romantic player with super technical skills and Ronaldo's ambitious/arrogant/selfish/whatever personality makes people more easily hate him - and judging him subjectively as a player because of that.
Messi's strenghts make him contribute more in the playmaking from the midfield, showing passes, dribbles and goals.
Ronaldo's strenghts in the latter part of his career is different and somewhat invisible until the goal: he doesn't playmake - he makes it easier for others to playmake with his constant, high quality off the ball movements and incredible pace, strenght, jump and positioning.
Is it more important to make a perfect pass or to make it so that any average pass is able to turn into a good one by the reciever's ability?
They're both as important, but people many times are more interested in the technical part of the game and not in the tactical one (that's why effective "park the bus" kind of teams are so hated nowadays and "useless pass sideways" teams are applauded).
Ronaldo has the bonus of having being great in another league, but no one can blame Messi for wanting to continue in one of the best clubs in the world.
In national teams I think they're also as good as each other.
Argentina's teams of stars many times lack the team spirit and Portugal's less impressive squads also have been stuck with horrendus strikers over the years, as well as more competition european-wise.
Messi's general criticism
- Needs a WC midfield to actually play - no, he has shown to be good in Argentina even when he played with dysfunctional teams.
- Doesn't want to come out of his confort zone - can you blame him to want to stay in one of the best clubs in the world? also see above.
- He's weaker in mental strenght - I think so, but that doesn't mean he's weak mentaly, just that Ronaldo is ridiculous in that department
Ronaldo's general criticism
- He's just a statue that deflects balls into the net - no, he makes it easy to tap in by his positioning, off the ball movement and intelligent pass/cross reading ability. Also he assists. A LOT. And earlier in his career he was one of the most entertaining players around.
- Doesn't perform in big games - this "rumour" was even wrong when it started, but I still heard it last year which is ridiculous.
- He's a selfish drama queen - It is true sometimes, but I think he's better now and anyway who cares if he still scores and assists crazily?
TL;DR - I think they're equally good and that's how history will remember them
Messi was playing as a false 9 in 2010-2011.
Ronaldo didn't help his team outside of the 10 goals in the last 5 matches? Even Barça fans were praising him for his performances vs Napoli where he didn't score, he won both yellows in midfield to get Martinez sent off at the Allianz and created all sorts of problems throughout. He's the player with second most assists in the Champions League and he's the only guy in the team that is a very good finisher.
Comparing Ronaldo's performances in the knockouts in 2016-17 to Messi's in 2010-11 is ridiculous.
Great post. I do think Messi is better than Ronaldo but you've touched on the criticisms and fallacies that apply to both well.
Great post @Camara. Couldn't agree more
So despite obvious biases, Manchester United fans still pick Messi as GOAT. That should tell us something.
I'm dying here
Not a great Real Madrid side: Casillas, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo, Xabi Alonso, and Ronaldo are players that will be put in the GOAT talk for their positions once they retire, surrounded by a cast of Di Maria, Ozil, Higuain or Benzema and coached by Jose Mourinho, who for you might be a non-great manager, but will probably end his career as top 5 material.
Then you try to sell us Juventus after underrating massively that Real Madrid side? Real had also only just conceded just 3 goals until Messi put them two in the Bernabeu.
2011? 6 goals and 2 assists in crucial stages? Like when he assisted Villa in the 2-1 defeat vs Arsenal and scored two in the secong leg, Shaktar happened, then he put two again on Real Madrid at Bernabeu and another one vs United in the Final?
You say it's not quantity vs quality, but IT IS, it was harder for Messi scoring the 0-2 in the Bernabeu beating 4 defenders than it was for Ronaldo putting 3 on bayern touching the ball 4 times in those 3 goals. It's fine if you believe that Ronaldo is better because he wins a game appearing two times to score two goals vs Messi constant involvement in the play and hours of footage scoring clutch goals after driving 3 or even 4 players. But at least don't try to sell us is not a debate between quality and quantity, it has always been that way between these two players
I thought scoring 10 goals against Juventus, Althetico and Bayern is way harder in terms of its context. You can argue all day on that specific solo goal where he run past 3 players and scored all day, yes its a fine goal, where he has his best year of scoring insane number of goals too. But in terms of influencing on winning the tournament (i.e. CL) with the significance of goals scored, and contributing to his team on winning it, Ronaldo edges it for me.
Great post mate. Earlier in their career, both these players might not have worked so well in the same team as they occupied similar positions on the pitch. But now they play different roles which are so complementary to each other. Messi and Ronaldo in the same team would work so well. That's why I would love to see an All Star Match with both these legends in the same team.
That doesn't counter my point. You're essentially suggesting that Ronaldo is better than Messi because of winning performances against Wales and Hungary. A dreadful tournament
That some people are very bitter?
I don't follow. Why would United fans be bitter about Ronaldo.
Because he left?
While I agree that it was a great side, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo and Xabi Alonso being GOATs in their position? What the heck
Never thought that the original debate will be relevant again, but fair play to Cristiano. At the moment I'd still say that Messi is greater, but that play-off run and a serious gap between them in goalscoring at CL's play-off stage in general makes you think.
I'm dying here
Not a great Real Madrid side: Casillas, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo, Xabi Alonso, and Ronaldo are players that will be put in the GOAT talk for their positions once they retire, surrounded by a cast of Di Maria, Ozil, Higuain or Benzema and coached by Jose Mourinho, who for you might be a non-great manager, but will probably end his career as top 5 material.
Then you try to sell us Juventus after underrating massively that Real Madrid side? Real had also only just conceded just 3 goals until Messi put them two in the Bernabeu.
Location: Barcelona. You are utterly biased and this clouds your judgment.
Since when does a sum of great players amount to a great team? Real had excellent players back then but weren't a great team. Great teams win tropheys. Remind me of the tropheys won by Real in 2010-11.
It's one thing to concede 3 goals prior to the quarters, it's another thing to concede 3 goals up to the final. Pretty obvious stuff that, location barcelona.
Stop posting.
Great teams win trophies, but not when they are up against an even better team. And they did beat Barca in 2010-11 in Copa del Rey final. Another proof that they were a great team under Mourinho.
No one in their right mind would count Real circa 2010-11 as a great team. Not even Real fans. Only Barca fans would do that. For obvious reasons.
Well, we played 4 games against them in 2011. One win (2-0), one loss (0-1), and two draws (1-1). All games were as tough as they come. If not for Barca that year, they win the CL imo.
You wish. International football will always count. For that on top of club football put Pele and Maradona ahead of any other great in the sport. And Pele and Maradona are the gold standard. Win nothing at international level and you will be ranked below those who did.
It doesn't matter which teams he scored against. Him scoring helped Portugal to get into the round of 16 and win a SF. Messi reaching the final is also shown as an achievement even though he scored vs worse teams and wasn't influential after the group stages
They won the Cup vs Barcelona
They didn't win the UCL because... they lost it against Barcelona, with Messi scoring two goals in the Bernabeu
They didn't win the league because... Barcelona won it, even tho they had 92 points and scored 102 goals (almost identical numbers to this season, 93/106)
10/11 Real Madrid was a huge team that failed to win a treble because Barcelona got in their way in the other 2 competitions, when I moan in other posts "It sucks that we have to win everything so Madrid doesn't win it" I don't say it for free, Madrid and Ronaldo have been contenders for the treble in the last 7 seasons, and Barcelona are most of the time the only thing standing between them and absolute glory.
Well that's the thing with opinions, it edges it for you.
When I look at that season and this one, Messi won us the leg vs Arsenal, Madrid and the final vs United. he didn't score 10 goals, "just" 6, but for me he performed better individually than Ronaldo because he wasn't just in the spot like a Tiger pouncing at his prey, he was involved in a lot of other ways.
And I won't try to convince you that Messi was superior, is just my opinion, but in some things I have to talk, and the debate quality vs quantity exists between them, the same way not many people would say Zidane had a better World Cup in 98' than Maradona in 86' because he scored 2 goals in the final and Maradona none, end of the day you could argue Maradona vs England counts as just a goal, same as Messi vs Real Madrid
Very hard to separate them now. I feel that Messi reached a higher peak of genius than Ronaldo ever will at his height but CR7 has been consistently insanely amazing for 10 years and is showing little sign of decline where as Messi is absolutely in decline. Ronaldo's consistency being the best for such a long period has never been matched before.
Absolutely
Statistically, he just had his best season in four years while Ronaldo has fallen into "less than 1 goal per game" territory for the first time in almost seven years. Thank god you're here to put some insight beyond numbers
That's reductive. Firstly, loads of average players have won a World Cup...and they're still average despite having a medal. Secondly, the club game has comfortably overtaken international football in terms of quality and gravitas. It's not comparable to Pele or Maradona's era.
My point is that Messi's accomplishments, when compared to Ronaldo's, shouldn't be downgraded because he's not won a Euro equivalent. They're both so brilliant that it's an insult to add that to this debate - it's like saying Messi is better because he's got further in a World Cup.
bit surprising that Ronaldo is only 13 goals ahead of Messi when we compare their national team records, given that he's older and has played 21 games more. when I look at their qualifying groups with Hungary, Andora, Faroe Islands and Latvia, I always think he could score 15 goals just in those 8 games if he wanted to. obviously football doesn't work that way, but still...
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