Mats Hummels

Getsme said:
If that was the case then opposition fans would be singing his praises, they're not.
He is a good player, but he's hardly "World Class" personally I think it's more a case of some posters overrating him while others see him for what he is, a decent player.
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At the moment there isn't really any world class players in the mould of a prime Vidic,Ferdinand and Terry.Certainly not in the Premier League.In current form Smalling is as good or close to as good as any other CB in the lead.So I think it's fair to say he's a good player.

I do agree that Hummels is
a better player.A Smalling- Hummels defence would be as good as any in the league for me.
 
People who say that Smalling is better than Hummels should just give up on football and start watching some other sport.
 
Sammyjunn said:
What are you trying? If that player was better at all those attributes I mentioned and the other ones in that category of defending, he would be better pure defensively yes. I can now say, in terms of clearances Shackell is the best of the top 5 leagues, nothing wrong with that, but thay's not saying he's a better defender than they are, the point you seem to be missing. Those aspects that I mentioned, I think Smalling is better than Hummels in those aspects, not making him a better defender, and as I mentioned, the better defender also contains playing the ball, organising the defence, and taking the lead etc, those are aspects why Hummels generally is a better defender than Smalling. Although I think Smalling has massively improved on that too, but that's another discussion.
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Pure defensively is completely made up term that has no relevance to how you judge defenders. Shackell makes more clearances per game because he plays in a side that sits on the edge of their own box in a compact shape with a minimal amount of possession and has to defend vs lots of crosses and shots. If you put Hummels into the Burnley line up and gave him that job he'd be fine. Shackell however cannot play in a high line, cannot pass the ball out of defence, cannot dribble the ball out of defence and cannot win the ball back quickly to launch quick counters. That's why he's not an elite CB and plays for Burnley. Hummels possesses all those qualities in abundance but since he doesn't win enough headers or make enough blocks he's not a "pure defender". Nonsense.

JPRouve said:
No because it's the sum of defensive attributes, you can't use these attributes in isolation and try to make a fair judgement.

Edit: For example David Luiz is probably a better all round player, but he isn't a better CB because, all his deficiencies are defensive (Marking, covering, tackling, pressing, defense on set pieces, concentration, anticipation, zonal awareness).
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Are you saying that David Luiz isn't as good as Shackell?
 
goin4glory said:
Pure defensively is completely made up term that has no relevance to how you judge defenders. Shackell makes more clearances per game because he plays in a side that sits on the edge of their own box in a compact shape with a minimal amount of possession and has to defend vs lots of crosses and shots. If you put Hummels into the Burnley line up and gave him that job he'd be fine. Shackell however cannot play in a high line, cannot pass the ball out of defence, cannot dribble the ball out of defence and cannot win the ball back quickly to launch quick counters. That's why he's not an elite CB and plays for Burnley. Hummels possesses all those qualities in abundance but since he doesn't win enough headers or make enough blocks he's not a "pure defender". Nonsense.



Are you saying that David Luiz isn't as good as Shackell?
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:lol: No he isn't as good as Smalling, who isn't as good as Hummels.
 
so this thread is basically who is better, Hummels or Smalling? FFS it isnt even a contest (Hummels wins on normal form), but i thought Hummels could play LCB and Smalling RCB. I mean if van Gaal would give up his fetish, it would work. Otherwise Rojo will play with Hummels. And we still have Jones, who seems to be also getting his fair share of games this season. I dont know whats the discussion about really. Smalling had a good season so far, but why compare them? They are totally different players and complement each other. Hummels can play with any of our 3 CBs, bring him in.
 
A smalling/hummels partnership would be something very good albeit an extremly injury prone CB pairing. They would make a good partnership though I have no doubt.
 
Van Piorsing said:
Now say that we are capable of winning trophies with that kind of defense we currently have.
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Of course we are. Look at the ages and then consider the injuries we have had. Then consider that after we sorted ourselves out, since (and including) the Chelsea game at the end of October, we have conceded just 16 goals, less than anyone in the league. 2 less than Chelsea despite scoring the same.
 
Idiots, we need 2 CB in our first eleven, so the argument about Smalling vs Hummels doesn't even make sense. They can play together and compliment each other. And Hummels will be the third best CB if he signs for us? Lay off the crack dude, it's certainly not helping you at all. Video games or not, Smalling is not even in the same league as Hummels. Keep on overhyping English players, but the fact remains that Hummels is a world cup winning CB, had been to CL finals and a multiple league title winner - all of these while being the key player, not just a passenger.

As for Smalling being a better defender when it comes to pure defense - is that based on statistics or simply your own opinion?

Smalling - 1.3 tackles, 2 interceptions, 0.9 fouls, 6.1 clearance and 0.6 blocks per game.
Hummels - 2.2 tackles, 2.4 interceptions, 0.6 fouls, 4.1 clearance and 0.6 blocks per game.

The stats don't really show him to be a better defender.
 
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I can actually live with the Smalling overrating, as I reckon he'd be partnering Hummels.

The overrating of the Jones-Smalling partnership is another thing though. That's a calamity waiting to happen.
 
An Irish Red said:
Touche. Still think attack is a hell of a lot more important than defence in this league though. Flat track bullies win titles after all.
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As the great man himself said 'Goalscorers win matches but goalkeepers and defenders win leagues'
I agree with that, if you have a solid defence it gives the attackers more freedom on the pitch.
 
izec said:
so this thread is basically who is better, Hummels or Smalling? FFS it isnt even a contest (Hummels wins on normal form), but i thought Hummels could play LCB and Smalling RCB. I mean if van Gaal would give up his fetish, it would work. Otherwise Rojo will play with Hummels. And we still have Jones, who seems to be also getting his fair share of games this season. I dont know whats the discussion about really. Smalling had a good season so far, but why compare them? They are totally different players and complement each other. Hummels can play with any of our 3 CBs, bring him in.
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We need 4 CB. Next season we will have around 50 games, so we'll need depth.

Those who say that Smalling is better than Hummels either suffer from severe delusion or haven't seen Hummels playing prior his year. In fact, even if we consider only this year, it isn't that Smalling has been that great. He had had some poor performances and many average ones.

If we sign Hummels, it will be him plus one. Considering that he can play on both CB positions, the other three defenders will have a fair fight between them (not Rojo getting the second spot by default). Still, I think that Rojo is our best CB (currently) so he might get that spot anyway. Also, a Hummels/Rojo partnership would be the best permutation IMO (Hummels the calm general, Rojo the guy who goes crazy). Smalling is a bit more similar to Hummels than Rojo/Jones.
 
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Revan said:
We need 4 CB. Next season we will have around 50 games, so we'll need depth.

Those who say that Smalling is better than Hummels either suffer from severe delusion or haven't seen Hummels playing prior his year. In fact, even if we consider only this year, it isn't that Smalling has been that great. He had had some poor performances and many average ones.

If we sign Hummels, it will be him plus one. Considering that he can play on both CB positions, the other three defenders will have a fair fight between them (not Rojo getting the second spot by default). Still, I think that Rojo is our best CB (currently) so he might get that spot anyway. Also, a Hummels/Rojo partnership would be the best permutation IMO (Hummels the calm general, Rojo the guy who goes crazy). Smalling is a bit more similar than Hummels than Rojo/Jones.
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This.
 
Getsme said:
If that was the case then opposition fans would be singing his praises, they're not.
He is a good player, but he's hardly "World Class" personally I think it's more a case of some posters overrating him while others see him for what he is, a decent player.
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There are very few of those around these days... And available... He is better than all of our CB's but hugely out of form..
 
Getsme said:
As the great man himself said 'Goalscorers win matches but goalkeepers and defenders win leagues'
I agree with that, if you have a solid defence it gives the attackers more freedom on the pitch.
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No longer really the case. In Europe the point would stand.
 
If we're getting Hummels, we better get another extra centre back because there's no way Jones, Smalling and Hummels are going to play the entire season without missing at least 15 games each.
 
An Irish Red said:
Liverpool nearly won the league with Consonants and Sakho at centre-back. Our defenders are more than capable.
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And the reason they didn't win the league is because of their defence. Goals win games, defence wins leagues.
 
Melvyn said:
And the reason they didn't win the league is because of their defence. Goals win games, defence wins leagues.
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Because of their defensive organisation, not their defense, per se.
 
An Irish Red said:
Liverpool nearly won the league with Consonants and Sakho at centre-back. Our defenders are more than capable.
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Pexbo said:
Of course we are. Look at the ages and then consider the injuries we have had. Then consider that after we sorted ourselves out, since (and including) the Chelsea game at the end of October, we have conceded just 16 goals, less than anyone in the league. 2 less than Chelsea despite scoring the same.
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This is exactly the reason why we need to raise standards by adding solid depth to the formation that should be even better than our current set of defenders. Next season you probably know already that we may get hit by a plague, it happens nearly every year and it means that LVG may be forced again to change his tactics to 3-5-2... I think we can all agree that we don't want that.

We should overhaul it especially when United can attract better defenders than Sakho and got full financial backup from sponsorship deals. Another advantage we should exploit to the fullest extent.
 
Van Piorsing said:
This is exactly the reason why we need to raise standards by adding solid depth to the formation that should be even better than our current set of defenders. Next season you probably know already that we may get hit by a plague, it happens nearly every year and it means that LVG may be forced again to change his tactics to 3-5-2... I think we can all agree that we don't want that.

We should overhaul it especially when United can attract better defenders than Sakho and got full financial backup from sponsorship deals. Another advantage we should exploit to the fullest extent.
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So your reason for signing Hummels is not to add quality as such but to fix the injury crisis?

Is that the equivalent of footballing anti-biotics? Insert injuries into the team in the hope it strengthens our medical team and we cope better with injuries next season.
 
Pexbo said:
So your reason for signing Hummels is not to add quality as such but to fix the injury crisis?

Is that the equivalent of footballing anti-biotics? Insert injuries into the team in the hope it strengthens our medical team and we cope better with injuries next season.
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Of course we're adding quality and while we do that the depth level is raising automatically.

C'mon man, it's not a rocket science...
 
Van Piorsing said:
Of course we're adding quality and while we do that the depth level is raising automatically.

C'mon man, it's not a rocket science...
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So we should go into next season with 5 centrebacks?
 
Pexbo said:
So your reason for signing Hummels is not to add quality as such but to fix the injury crisis?

Is that the equivalent of footballing anti-biotics? Insert injuries into the team in the hope it strengthens our medical team and we cope better with injuries next season.
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:lol:
 
Getsme said:
How so?
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Because the highest scorers in the Premier League tend to come up trumps. The best defence in the Premier League will be lucky to get Europa League football this season.

The Premier League seems to be noticeably more gung-ho at the present.
 
Kag said:
Because the highest scorers in the Premier League tend to come up trumps. The best defence in the Premier League will be lucky to get Europa League football this season.

The Premier League seems to be noticeably more gung-ho at the present.
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Having a good defence gives the attacking players the freedom to go forward, something that was a big hinderance to us for a large part of the season.
 
Chris "pure defender" Smalling allowing Milner to walk past him for the goal there... and then pissing the ball away on a mindless charge forward.
 
Dion said:
Chris "pure defender" Smalling allowing Milner to walk past him for the goal there... and then pissing the ball away on a mindless charge forward.
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He was poor. We over rate him like mad on the caf, watched today with a neutral who thinks Smalling is a complete donkey.
 
Bwuk said:
He was poor. We over rate him like mad on the caf, watched today with a neutral who thinks Smalling is a complete donkey.
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Can he improve under LVG though? I've no confidence in Jones either but they've both been part of a winning run
 
Still I'd rather Hummels partner Smalling than Jones.
 
Bwuk said:
He was poor. We over rate him like mad on the caf, watched today with a neutral who thinks Smalling is a complete donkey.
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It's funny because not so long ago many were saying how Smalling were shit, so it must be a new thing this overratting of him.
 
Bubz27 said:
Still I'd rather Hummels partner Smalling than Jones.
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Yep, Smalling + Hummels first choice, Jones + Rojo as back up. That would probably do the job if they could actually stay fit.
 
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