If youre judging them on this season, then yes they were all bad. But everyone knows Dortmund and Klopp arent as bad as this season has unfolded. Same with United last year. We were never going to be 7th or 8th permanently. It was just a blip.
Mats Hummels
- Thread starter Sied
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
The good part is that, he could be a defensive leader on the pitch and in the infirmary.
There's a tendency to underrate the players we already have. Their mistakes and drawbacks become more apparent when you watch them week in week out. Hummels has been as error prone as any of our CB's over the last 2 seasons but his reputation is somehow still intact while Smalling and Jones get slaughtered for every little error they make.
Hummels is very good on the ball though so I can see why LVG might want him but not convinced about his actual defensive ability and concentration.
Hummels is very good on the ball though so I can see why LVG might want him but not convinced about his actual defensive ability and concentration.
Where is this idea that Smalling has somehow been in great form this season? We played 31 games and he''s missed 13, a total of 18 times this season which includes conceding 5 goals vs Leicester, getting sent off vs City as well an a number of other mediocre performances. He's only managed 90 minutes on 12 ocassions which isn't at all good enough for someone of his supposed ability and from which we've managed a grand total of 4 clean sheets, yet he's somehow now a better CB than Hummels? Madness.
It's much easier to be caught out of position when you play for a team that uses a high line, expects defenders to be on the front foot winning the ball back quickly as well as bringing the ball into midfield to overload the opposition. If you want a CB who stands on the penalty spot clearing headers then we might as well bring Vidic back. The best teams in Europe like Barca/Bayern/Madrid all use athletic/ball playing CB's who enable them to play proactive systems and if we have any ambitions of building a side capable of playing that style of football a world class CB is a must. Playing in these systems often leaves CB's very exposed to quick counters and balls over the top which in turn leads to posts about how Hummels "get's caught out of position regularly" but the same argument is used against Koscielny/Ramos/Pique etc You can't have it both ways, if you want that style of football then CB's capable of playing that specific role are the foundation.
Ability on the ball/passing are massive problems for CB's in modern football with all the best teams in Europe playing styles that expect them to build from the back as well as defend aggressively higher up the pitch.
With us there was an easy explanation. Moyes was the wrong man for the job and he did almost everything wrong.
Dortmund's collapse this season is just bizarre. It reminds me of how Valencia went from a really good winger in 11/12 to offering nothing in attack in 12/13. I keep on expecting them to be good just like for ages I kept expecting Valencia to start taking people on again.
Tip; watch our matches. He was a substitute vs Leicester and was at the back with Evans after injury. Hard to put it on him. He has been in good form after the horrendous City match, in some watches he has even been the standout. He has stayed fit mostly since then. I think he's had more brilliant matches than horrendous ones, vs Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Hull for example. And once again nobody said he is a better CB, just read please. Its not that difficult. Smalling has clearly been much more adventurous recently, driving up forwards, trying to dribble in the spaces before him, so I dont think you can use that argument on him this season.
It can be explained. When they have lost all their top players in the last few years. Sahin (not the same since he left), Kagawa (same), Gotze, Lewandowski and Gundogan (he isnt the same player this season). Not to mention losing Pizchek for a while too. Thats really the spine of the team that won the title. These players havent been adequately replaced.
Its not so laughable, if you'd actually watch the constant mistakes he's been making this season. He isn't the player that your video games tell you he is. He's getting all this praise on reputation. On the other hand our defence has been solid for some time now.Hummels our 3rd best CB if he signs, apparently.
Tip: Don't be so condescending.
Tip 2: Watch the match yourself, he replaced Evans.
Tip 3: United were 2:1 up when he came on and conceded another 4 goals.
He wasn't brilliant Vs Arsenal, we should have conceded 2 or 3 goals in the first half and would have had it not been for DDG. Arsenal were rampant. Hull really? Yes he played well vs Liverpool/Spurs but Spurs was the best team performance of the season and Liverpool we played vs 10 men for 45mins.
He's managed 90mins 12 times this season, but yet that's enough to be better than Hummels. Ridiculous.
Personally think it is ok to have one defender who is not brilliant on the ball (though Smalling has improved a lot and rarely gives the ball away) as long as you have CMs who are coming back to pick the ball up from them (Carrick and Blind) and when you don't require the CB to do much creative passing.
I think Vidic - Ferdinand (in their peak years) would still be the best CBs in the world and would still work in this team/philosophy, even though Vidic was not any better than Smalling on the ball and Ferdinand was a serial 'long passer'.
Now say that we are capable of winning trophies with that kind of defense we currently have.
Hummels seems like the player that we just have to buy. Whether he turns out to be a flop, we had to take the risk because if we hadn't we'll forever get 'We should have signed Hummels'
Bloody hell, for the last time, nobody says he's better than Hummels? Do you know what reading is? Hummels has around 100 mins more in the league, what are you going on about?
He would, but he hasn't.
Wrong.
England had a fantastic midfield during Carricks prime in Gerrard Lampard and Scholes.
Jones was played in midfield in a meaningless friendly as Carrick wasn't needed. Is this the pathetic level you're going to stoop to?
Awkward.
Yeah it's me who needs to learn how to read.
He's better at pure defending, that doesnt make you a better defender/player in total. There's more to being a defender than just defending, sounds weird but playing the ball, organasing the back is part of it. Im talking about myself, not about Rykker btw. Hummels is a better CB but pure the defending part, tackles, slidinfs, defensive errors etc, I think Smalling is better. Dont know why you and Getsme want to read what you want to read.
His mind is already in Manchester..
Last summer I was hoping we would sign Hummels, now I'm not so sure.
Smalling is our best and fastest centre back and if Hummels were to be in the team he has to be partnered with Smalling
Not saying yes or no at the moment, but whoever we sign has to improve the team and am worried about signing players who have poor seasons and are playing in teams that are having poor seasons, same applies to Everton's defence, half of which for some reason people want us to sign
Smalling is our best and fastest centre back and if Hummels were to be in the team he has to be partnered with Smalling
Not saying yes or no at the moment, but whoever we sign has to improve the team and am worried about signing players who have poor seasons and are playing in teams that are having poor seasons, same applies to Everton's defence, half of which for some reason people want us to sign
And at last, just talking about this season, forget that Hummels was one of tbe best CB's in the world previously, just this seasom he hasnt been really good.
Are you always this much of a terrible poster? I'm reading what I want to read? What? You wrote "Nobody says's he's a better defender than Hummels" So I quoted a number of posts where people have in fact outright claimed he's a better defender. I'm somehow supposed to know that you sayin "nobody says he's better" means just you? And this is me "reading what I want to? Genuine question is English your first language?
What is pure defending exactly? Care to elaborate?
The feck are you on about?
If that's the reason he wasn't focused this season then Klopp can only blame himself.
He should accept the offer when we were politely asking in the summer. I guess now we're gonna have to buy him for little less.
Apologies, next to Rykker I dont think people have actually said that Smalling is a better defender, they've only adressed that the out and out defending, Smalling has done that better. Stuff like clearances, blocks, tackles, slidings, defensive headers, etc, for the 3rd time in this thread, you and getsme have been going about or insinuating that I've said Smalling is a better defender, just not true.
Dunno.
That's twice you've mentioned me, where have I posted that you said Smalling was a better defender? Are you drunk or drinking?
I think that he means that if you only judge the defensive attributes of Smalling and Hummels, Smalling will have a better grade but if you add all the other attributes Hummels is a better all round player.
Hummels - Complete footballer.
Smalling - Can defend like Dennis Rodman in NBA.
We could really use both you know...
Smalling - Can defend like Dennis Rodman in NBA.
We could really use both you know...
I don't play video games.
Hummels has been a better defender then any of our current lot for a good 3/4 years. An off few months doesn't change the fact that he'd immediately be our best defender.
Falcao and RVP are our best strikers then and at the very top in the PL, living off reputation is very dangerous imo.
I guess so....
If you want to judge a defender based on clearances,blocks and headers then to be honest you have little clue about modern football at the highest level. For example Burnley skipper Jason Shackell has made more clearances than any other defender in the top 5 leagues in Europe this season. By Sammyjunn's logic this makes him better than Ramos, Silva, Koscielny, Hummels and even Smalling.
What are you trying? If that player was better at all those attributes I mentioned and the other ones in that category of defending, he would be better pure defensively yes. I can now say, in terms of clearances Shackell is the best of the top 5 leagues, nothing wrong with that, but thay's not saying he's a better defender than they are, the point you seem to be missing. Those aspects that I mentioned, I think Smalling is better than Hummels in those aspects, not making him a better defender, and as I mentioned, the better defender also contains playing the ball, organising the defence, and taking the lead etc, those are aspects why Hummels generally is a better defender than Smalling. Although I think Smalling has massively improved on that too, but that's another discussion.
Its sad that we have a centre back of genuine quality in Smalling and so many fans want to downplay his ability, if he was playing for any other team those same people would be singing his praises. He's finally playing regularly in his preferred position in a settled defense and lo and behold he's showing his true stock. Anyway, I feel we've digressed here a little!
No because it's the sum of defensive attributes, you can't use these attributes in isolation and try to make a fair judgement.
Edit: For example David Luiz is probably a better all round player, but he isn't a better CB because, all his deficiencies are defensive (Marking, covering, tackling, pressing, defense on set pieces, concentration, anticipation, zonal awareness).
They're also past it, one is into his 30's and the other coming off a terrible injury.
They're barely comparable to the Hummels situation.
If that was the case then opposition fans would be singing his praises, they're not.
He is a good player, but he's hardly "World Class" personally I think it's more a case of some posters overrating him while others see him for what he is, a decent player.
Main point is, after brilliant consecutive years, you can still suddenly regress or have a huge dip in form, dont forget Hummels has had his fair share of injuries too, that could play a role.
The same could be said about Carrick for all those years then? I think on current performances he's the best defender in the league, if he maintains this level then there aren't too many better defenders about, of course it is a big if.