HookedOnAPhelan
Full Member
Oh no, Mark Ogden thinks it was out of order.
Simon saysI agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.
Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.
No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.
Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.
There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.
There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....
The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.
Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.
TL;DR - Sell Rashford.
Looks like Rashford quickly concluded Amorin's style of football is not for him and gave up.I have never seen anything like it before. A new manager comes in and you make no effort to impress him.
I would assume Rashy would argue he has put in all the efforts, but the manager refuses to see it.I have never seen anything like it before. A new manager comes in and you make no effort to impress him.
Im equally distraught. We really respect Mark OgdenOh no, Mark Ogden thinks it was out of order.
And save us those 300 000 a week. That would actually be perfect.True. Rashy should terminate his contract and leave, in protest.
I'm actually a bit surprised that he has kept quiet. One out of three: 1. He is waiting for the right moment to come out with a bang. 2. He saw what happened to Sancho and doesn't want the same spectacle. 3. Amorin is right, and he knows it. At the moment, it's more fun spending money in fancy bars. I mean, you only live ones.I would assume Rashy would argue he has put in all the efforts, but the manager refuses to see it.
Superb postI agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.
Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.
No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.
Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.
There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.
There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....
The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.
Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.
TL;DR - Sell Rashford.
This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.
But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?
This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.
But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?
This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.
But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?
Maybe Amorim doesn't like school meals.It seems pretty much undeniable by now that Amorim is not the problem here.
This is about Rashford's professionalism (lack thereof, basically).
Amorim isn't a loon who has something against Rashford on a personal level.
He must be some kind of Edward Norton mf because in the interviews he always came across like a nice chap.I don't think he finished one game of 90 minutes for Amorim. And then, there is that game v Victoria Plzen. So, it's not just training. It's no surprise that the 2 players that Amorim does not count on are Casemiro and Rashford, both in NY on a basketball match, different time zone, just days after their coach got sacked. Amorim publicly said, on his first ever press conference that it will not be allowed anymore for players to be in a few timezones away.
I really believe that he does not like Rashford as a person as well. Amorim kept mentioning that for him, how his players behave off the pitch, and how they treat others is also important. He appreciates humility, and somehow, I doubt Rashford has it, based on small details of his private life, like parking where he wants, and throwing gloves on the ground instead of handing it over to the person standing next to him.
This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.
But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?
This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.
But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?
fecking off to the states to act like a global sporting icon for a few days while Amorim was getting ready to walk in the door as manager probably didn't create a great first impression.
I went to school with David Ornstein. Seemed alright, but wouldn’t put it past him to do the aforementioned for money or to further his career.In the full clip, Carragher essentially outs Ornstein for providing positive PR for Rashford in exchange for information from his camp. Carragher quickly moves on from that point as I think he realized he had put Ornstein in an uncomfortable position, and it was noticeable that Ornstein looked slightly sullen as the conversation continued.
Yup. Definitely. Nobody in their right mind would feck off to the other side of the world when you know that your new boss is coming in.He thought that his place was guaranteed, just like it was with Ten Hag, Ragnick, Ole, hence he didn't care about the optics.
Regarding Marcus Rashford
Instead of replying to the numerous responses I have received I will make several comments.
1. I am not a particular fan of Rashford but I have seen him play some very good games including most recently the Everton game where he scored two good goals.
2. I don’t think it at all professional of Amorim to make remarks like he has made about Rashford publicly and he now appears to be back tracking on this comment. Too late I’m afraid and very immature, although he has apologised apparently.
3. There are problems with Rashford but I’m not sure what they are or what has caused them. I don’t think he is the smartest of guys but he must see the mess he is in regards clubs being a bit wary about his possible value and wages, even his state of mind.
4. I fully understand that people will tear into him because he is a real conundrum and I’m not sure he knows what he wants, let alone the manager or anyone else.
5. I fully accept the responses I have received and always try to respect other peoples views (or mostly). To everyone just keep on posting in any way you wish.
He thought that his place was guaranteed, just like it was with Ten Hag, Ragnick, Ole, hence he didn't care about the optics.
Is he a closet Tory?Maybe Amorim doesn't like school meals.
"4 goals in the Premier League baby"
This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.
But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?
He could hire the pope to have a word upstairs in his name. Still no one would show up with the cash to buy him. Not even for free, no one shows up to pay his wages. Thats the cold hard truth.Two excerpts from BBC football gossip page:
Manchester United striker Marcus Rashford, 27, has hired the brother of Brighton forward Danny Welbeck as his new agent to help him find a move away from Old Trafford. (Star), external
As it stands, Rashford's only option to leave United this month would be a loan move to Juventus. (Independent)
Edit: hmm, very odd. The Star article has disappeared, and so has an Express article to the same effect.
This was it for Amorim i think. Taking that long flight to NY when there’s a new manager is something that a senior player shouldn’t be doing. And then everything followed everything you mentioned. The way this guy took this shirt for granted is laughableWhen you see photos like that, Rashford swanning off to New York instead of being there on the new managers first day, the rumours in The Athletic that he went out on the piss before a PL game then lied to Amorim about it, the shocking lack of effort in games particularly the Viktoria Plzen game I don't know how anyone could possibly take Rashford's side in this.
He's been completely unprofessional, I bet Amorim was shocked at how blatantly Rashford doesn't give a shit.
The training extremely hard part is obviously in dispute, but it's very clearly true that Rashford wasn't the one initiating the exit, and that he didn't initially want to leave.
Amorim's latest comments only make rational sense if he's joining the club in trying to push Rashford out, and that would only be necessary if he's still not very big on leaving, but considering Amorim just recently smashed the dressing room and had to walk back other comments, it's pretty clear he struggles with basic impulse control. So, it might just have been him being dumb again, rather than anything calculated.
Someone replacing the brother of Marcus Rashford with the brother of Danny Welbeck has one dream in his head and one dream only - he wants to become the new Danny Welbeck.He could hire the pope to have a word upstairs in his name. Still no one would show up with the cash to buy him. Not even for free, no one shows up to pay his wages. Thats the cold hard truth.
Not to confuse with interest. Yes a lot of clubs might be. But at zero cost and less than half of the weekly bill. Because with that shitty behaviour, he's nothing more than a gamble.